]the idea is brawler mcpunchface can beat lycanthropes with silver brass knuckles effectivly or a similer ability.
And a Monk could use a Nunchuck or Temple Sword. That doesn't mean we should remove their ability to bypass DR with unarmed strikes.
I don't think being forced to give up your main combat style to be viable is a good solution. Unarmed Brawlers should be viable. If they need to use weapons half the time because DR is such a common ability, then it's not really an unarmed build anymore.
We have so few options for creating unarmed characters, why remove this one by nerfing it to the point where it becomes a trap?
DR/Silver and DR/Cold Iron are very common. Unarmed Brawlers need a way to deal with it that doesn't involve completely ignoring their main combat style or waiting 11 levels to have enough cash to buy a +3 AoMF.
i think the point people are making is that unlike an orental monk, for a western strongman brawler things like brass knuckles should BE the primary style or one of them.
i think the point people are making is that unlike an orental monk, for a western strongman brawler things like brass knuckles should BE the primary style or one of them.
And the point I'm trying to make is that unarmed combat should be viable. It doesn't matter if it's not their "primary style". What the hell even is a class' primary style of combat? Do Barbarians have one? What about Paladins or Rangers? I don't think so.
A character's primary style is the one the player chooses, not the class. Fighters, Barbarians and Ranger can already make a damn good brass-knuckles brawler, but they are pretty bad at unarmed combat.
Brawler is the one full BAB that can focus on unarmed strikes as a viable combat style without dipping Monk. That's one of the major selling points of the class.
Removing Brawler Strike will change that. It'll make unarmed combat very ineffective from levels 3 to 11. It's like removing Ranger's proficiency with 2-handed weapons because TWF and Archery are supposed to be their "primary combat style".
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And the point I'm trying to make is that unarmed combat should be viable.
Problem: The devs don't want that.
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And the point I'm trying to make is that unarmed combat should be viable.Problem: The devs don't want that.
But they still added Brawler Strike. So why try to remove one of the very few options that make unarmed combat viable?
It's like complaining your job doesn't pay you enough and then refusing a raise.
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Actually, I think the main problem is that an AoMF costs twice as an equivalent weapon. But, yeah, occupying an item slot also hurts a lot.
Sad thing is paizo themselves made AoMF obsolete when they ruled you can make a flurry with 1 fist. It makes the "one enchant, multiple weapons" tax pointless. Yeah its possible to make a character that uses twf for unarmed fighting, but its rare enough that its not game breaking to overlook it. When I dm I have a houserule that AoMF has a base cost of 2350g, can hold up to +10 like a weapon, and only works with unarmed strikes. The classic version is renamed Amulet of Ferocious Might, works with natural weapons, and is intended for non-humanoids.
And I don't see how adding scaling damage dice to weapons make unarmed combatants more useful against creatures with DR.
It gives players the option to use special materials or enchants to bypass dr instead of relying on I Can't Believe It's Not Ki Strike. Really my main beef with brawlers strike is thematic. Can't get over "you're not mystic but your fists are magic because REASONS!"
How about the Brawler punches through DR equal to half his level when using Unarmed Strikes? Penetrating Strike and Improved Penetrating Strike could improve it as well if you're really crazy about getting through DR.
I do agree that Brawler Strike has to go.
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This is how I'm currently envisioning the Brawler...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenichi:_The_Mightiest_Disciple
I may not like it, but I somewhat have to agree, especially when Kenichi switched styles against Ryuto.
What people seem to be forgetting is, that the brawler is supposed to be able to fight WITH ANY PART OF HIS BODY. If we solve the DR/enchantment problem for unarmed strike by using brass knuckles/cestus, that goes away. Because then we can once again just attack with whatever the brawler has in hand. I really do not get why we cannot just fix unarmed strike for this class. Would it really be the end of the world to have one character class that can actually compete when it comes to damage without the need for a frickin weapon?! *smh*
That was where he was like channeling the styles of his masters and kept swapping back and forth?
Yeah, I'd love to see that. If the Brawler became Kenichi-esque (Well, "Kenichi after he nuts up and stops being such a wee tiny baby man"-esque) that'd be awesome.
That is EXACTLY the scene that came to my mind when reading the Brawler.I may not like it, but I somewhat have to agree, especially when Kenichi switched styles against Ryuto.This is how I'm currently envisioning the Brawler...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenichi:_The_Mightiest_Disciple
It was a mixture of that scene, and the fact Kenichi gets his BUTT kicked through out the manga. He doesn't really have a high AC, but he's got a ton of HP, which would lead more toward d10 HP than d8.
Also, Kenichi isn't that 'agile' of a person. Sure, he's got some, but he's more Strength, than agility. Strength and Endurance are things Kenichi has in spades, and it's referenced through out the entire Manga that Kenichi has no talent, but what he does have is amazing strength and endurance.
This all leads me to think Kenichi is a brawler, rather than a Monk. Strength prime, high Con, some Dex, and some Int (he's pretty smart). Toss on the fact he can change his entire style of martial arts on the fly, and you've got a decent Brawler going.
[Edit] For those missing out, here's the scene in a nutshell.
Kenichi using Martial Maneuvers... well, sorta.
What people seem to be forgetting is, that the brawler is supposed to be able to fight WITH ANY PART OF HIS BODY. If we solve the DR/enchantment problem for unarmed strike by using brass knuckles/cestus, that goes away. Because then we can once again just attack with whatever the brawler has in hand. I really do not get why we cannot just fix unarmed strike for this class. Would it really be the end of the world to have one character class that can actually compete when it comes to damage without the need for a frickin weapon?! *smh*
Because as I said before, the devs don't want to fix unarmed strikes.
Snark and bitterness aside, SKR at least has gone on record saying they were deliberately designed to be worse than other options. Partially because at least he believes the "always armed" aspect somehow makes up for that fact (because being armed but not being as good 90% of the time is worth that 10% at absolute maximum time nobody else in the party has a weapon...).
Sean K Reynolds recommends I post this in the main brawler discussion thread. Please be gentle, but consider the ideas:
I am a big proponent of class diversity and flexibility; that is why I strongly support class designs that make use of abilities such as rogue talents, rage powers, arcane exploits, and so forth. I really think that the brawler would benefit from this as well, and along those lines consider the changes to the class suggested below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brawler is proficient with all simple weapons . She is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Martial Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler can spend a to gain the benefit of a feat she doesn't possess for 1 minute. . The brawler must otherwise meet all the feat’s prerequisites. She may use this ability a number of times per day . If this ability is triggered before the duration expires, the brawler loses the previous combat feat and gains a new one in its place. If a feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that feat while using this ability count toward that feat’s daily limit.
At 6th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of two feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a or two feats as a . At 10th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of three combat feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a swift action, two feats as a move action, or three feats as a standard action. At 12th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of one feat as an immediate action.
...
I have to say Lorekeeper, these are some good changes, though I do have some concerns.
The big ones are the skills related to the Martial Maneuver ability, like Extra Maneuvers, Enduring Maneuver and Extra Maneuver feat. The reason is because these almost seem like mandatory. The 1 hour duration from selecting Enduring Maneuvers twice isn't so much necessary, especially if one were to take Extra Maneuvers. By 10th level, you have 20 uses of the ability, each lasting 10 minutes, just for taking Extra Maneuvers and Enduring Maneuvers (once). If you took it a second time, that's 20 hours of bonus feats.
Extra Maneuver feat: is it 2 feats as a swift, 3 as a move, and 4 as a standard?
The other big thing is I notice you removed the bonus feats. This is kind of an issue, as, without the bonus feats, the class has a hard time meeting all the feat per-requisites for Martial Maneuvers. This kind of forces the class to only select between a handful of feats that it qualifies for, instead of being able to play a martial tool-box.
I'm not sure I like that the Brawler can get up to a +6/+7 Dodge bonus using Brawling Dodger, but that would probably, at best, let the Bralwer keep even with most full-plate fighters or sword and boarders.
Still, I would have to say I prefer this version over the actual Brawler. With Brawler Skills, later books could add to the list, like they do for Rogue Talents and Rage Powers. It just makes it potentially more versatile.
A character's primary style is the one the player chooses, not the class. Fighters, Barbarians and Ranger can already make a damn good brass-knuckles brawler, but they are pretty bad at unarmed combat.
Brawler is the one full BAB that can focus on unarmed strikes as a viable combat style without dipping Monk. That's one of the major selling points of the class.
Okay, the light has dawned. Ladies and Gentlemen, Lemmy is right.
I could just as easily build a brass knuckle brawler using Barbarian as my class. One of the key things that separates the Brawler as it currently stands with other martial classes using the close weapon group is the ability to go unarmed.
*Sigh* Brawler strike should stay.
And I don't see how adding scaling damage dice to weapons make unarmed combatants more useful against creatures with DR.It gives players the option to use special materials or enchants to bypass dr instead of relying on I Can't Believe It's Not Ki Strike. Really my main beef with brawlers strike is thematic. Can't get over "you're not mystic but your fists are magic because REASONS!"
No, it doesn't. That statement makes no sense. "How do you make unarmed combat viable? Well, you use weapons". Unarmed Brawlers should be viable. If you have to use weapons, then it's not unarmed anymore.
Making weapons better does nothing for unarmed combatants. Removing Brawler Strike makes unarmed combat pretty much nonviable at levels 4 through 11, since DR is so common.
Wielding Cestus is already superior to fighting unarmed in pretty much every way.
- It costs half as much money to enhance.
- It can be made Masterwork for a +1 to-hit at low levels.
- It can be made of special materials from the start (silver weapons are cheap).
- It doesn't occupy an item slot.
- It has better crit threat range.
"But unarmed strikes can't be stolen or sundered". Yeah, and I'm sure that will be very useful during the 5% of the time it's relevant. Besides, AoMF can be stolen or sundered.
How about the Brawler punches through DR equal to half his level when using Unarmed Strikes? Penetrating Strike and Improved Penetrating Strike could improve it as well if you're really crazy about getting through DR.
Hmm... That is a possible solution. I'm not sure if half level is enough, though. DR 5 is pretty common at levels 4~11, and DR 10 is not that rare, either.
But it's one possible solution. It still makes sense to me that a guy who focuses on unarmed strike in a world where so many creatures have DR would eventually learn how to deal with DR.
Okay, the light has dawned. Ladies and Gentlemen, Lemmy is right.
I could just as easily build a brass knuckle brawler using Barbarian as my class. One of the key things that separates the Brawler as it currently stands with other martial classes using the close weapon group is the ability to go unarmed.
*Sigh* Brawler strike should stay.
Thank you. ^^
Look at that... I actually convinced someone on the internet. Does that mean I get a cookie or unlock a real-life achievement?
It still makes sense to me that a guy who focuses on unarmed strike in a world where so many creatures have DR would eventually learn how to deal with DR.It does make sense that they should be able to deal with DR... but not by using a supernatural ability to make their fists magical. Dealing with DR is as simple as saying "You ignore X amount of DR as an extraordinary ability." It also gives the Brawler an interesting ability that other classes don't really have, other than a copy/paste of a Monk's mystical zen punches, which make no sense given the flavor of the class.
Yup, and like I said, the ability to ignore a certain amount of DR might be a good idea.
Unarmed Brawlers need an effective ability for dealing with DR, but that ability doesn't necessarily needs to be the same as a Monk. Unarmed Strikes being able to ignore an amount of DR equal to the character's Brawler level, except for DR/epic and DR/-, for example, would be cool.
I find myself asking "What would Batman do?"
Batman uses weapons to defeat foes he cannot beat with his fist.
"What does Captian America do?"
Hits it with the Shield. A quick opinion… Allow Shield Proficiency, The feat tax for improved shield bash is already there. Or just make the shield Brawler an archetype.
If the class should have an ability to get through DR with its fist give it the Penetrating Strikes early as part of the class progression.
Personally, i think if Vital Strike was built into the class as an attack option you could power through low level DR with crushing blows. Changing your attack style from many small hits to focused sundering blows.
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What about this? Instead of ignoring DR for 1/2 his lever, reduce opponents DR by 1/2 level.
For instance, enemy with DR5/silver, to a 4th level brawler its DR3/silver.
Not sure how functional the 1/2 level progression is, but you get the idea.
I do think they should simply change the themantic wording to brawler strike.
As for weapons, as a Brawler, they arent going to do just unarmed combat. I picture a brawler using anything in a fight from beer bottles to throwing tables to unarmed combat. Brawl to me basically means fighting in chaos and using anything to win.
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Apparently they will be proficiant with sheilds as weapons only but unable to use them as sheilds, which is possibly the silliest idea ive ever heard of.
It's just an artifact of shields being on the close weapon group. It's no more "silly" than a druid from a desert culture being proficient in scythe (an agricultural harvesting tool).
What about this? Instead of ignoring DR for 1/2 his lever, reduce opponents DR by 1/2 level.
For instance, enemy with DR5/silver, to a 4th level brawler its DR3/silver.
Not sure how functional the 1/2 level progression is, but you get the idea.
That is exactly the same heh.
A 4th level Brawler would ignore 2 points of DR in this case.
I suppose just ignoring DR equal to your level would also work. It'd mean a Brawler really only needs his fists to get by in the world which is kind of bad ass. DR past 5th level is generally a non-factor anyways.
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In a class where you can semi-rebuild your feat selection on the fly, a simpler method of overcoming DR (such as presented in the playtest) is better than a more complex method (such as reducing the DR value based on the character's level).
If it's "I bypass this kind of DR," it's an on/off toggle for the monster that you only have to evaluate once per creature.
If it's "I subtract X from its DR," it's a mathematical calculation you have to perform every time the brawler damages the creature.
The first option is easier in play than the second option.
I don't need an explanation of what a war scythe is.
I also know that the war scythe was derived from taking agricultural scythes and turning them into weapons.
But I don't need to get into an argument about whether or not it's silly. You are free to insist that a desert druid wielding a scythe isn't silly, and Kekkres is free to insist that using a shield as a weapon but not as armor is silly.
Okay. So Brawler strike will work the same way as the Monk. Can we reflavor it though? Something to make it feel more more like a technique learned the field (or streets) of battle rather than a mystical ability gained through heightened self awareness?
In a class where you can semi-rebuild your feat selection on the fly, a simpler method of overcoming DR (such as presented in the playtest) is better than a more complex method (such as reducing the DR value based on the character's level).
If it's "I bypass this kind of DR," it's an on/off toggle for the monster that you only have to evaluate once per creature.
If it's "I subtract X from its DR," it's a mathematical calculation you have to perform every time the brawler damages the creature.
The first option is easier in play than the second option.
Can we at least change the Su. tag to Ex.? Most folks don't like how the Brawler is secretly channeling Ki.
The Brawler Strike method means our Brawler has no means of penetrating Adamantine DR till 17th level while characters who wield weapons have it by about 10th level if they care. 12th gets us through 1 alignment based DR which who are we kidding is going to be DR/Good. By 13th level most heavily martial oriented PCs have invested in a +5 Weapon so they ignore all alignment based DR. 9th level is about right for Cold Iron and Silver. Lots of classes have methods of punching through DR earlier than this as well. Paladins smite, Barbarians can get Furious weapons, Inquisitors get Bane. Maybe a better magic item that comes out in the book specifically for unarmed strikes, *which would be a godsend* with a price equal to that of a weapon could let us just drop the ability? =)
Our Brawler unless he invests in certain style feats also gets mitigated by slashing/piercing DR.
@Lemmy
I understand that DR would be a problem without Brawler's Strike, but I disagree with your point that having a Brawler resort to using weapons in certain situations makes his unarmed abilities not viable. Martials have different weapon proficiencies and need to adapt fighting styles to different encounters (which, in my opinion, is the best aspect of the Brawler with his martial maneuvers, not the fact that he's a good puncher). I mean, what's he going to do underwater? Hope there are never any underwater encounters? Or just use a piercing weapon? Or should Brawler's Strike grant him the ability to deal piercing damage with his unarmed strikes, because without it he sucks at punching underwater?
What if he has to fight a flying opponent? He doesn't have access to flight magic, but shooting a crossbow would invalidate his unarmed fighting that he wants to excel at all the time, so should the Brawler have a class feature that allows him to make unarmed attacks from 80 ft away? That would be awesome (Rocket Punch!), but I don't think the Brawler should get it.
I think the focus of the Brawler should be on versatility--he can punch you, yeah, but he just might need to use other methods against certain encounters, whether it's enchanted brass knuckles or otherwise. I mean, Buffy was a hell of a Brawler, but sometimes she had to bust out the occasional stake, axe, or rocket launcher to get the job done.
Okay. So Brawler strike will work the same way as the Monk. Can we reflavor it though? Something to make it feel more more like a technique learned the field (or streets) of battle rather than a mystical ability gained through heightened self awareness?
I don't see any flavor text in the brawler's strike ability at all, so any flavor you see there is something you're projecting into it. In other words, you can reflavor it any way you want. Rage? Flashback to training? Racism? Memory of a lost friend? Secret ki? Bad burrito? The choice is yours!
Can we at least change the Su. tag to Ex.? Most folks don't like how the Brawler is secretly channeling Ki.
It's something we're discussing, but to be honest, the Ex/Su difference for DR almost never matters. (No time to explain that right now, but it's true.)
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Apparently they will be proficiant with sheilds as weapons only but unable to use them as sheilds, which is possibly the silliest idea ive ever heard of.It's just an artifact of shields being on the close weapon group. It's no more "silly" than a druid from a desert culture being proficient in scythe (an agricultural harvesting tool).
That's...actually pretty significantly silly. I dunno if you've ever used a shield in your life but it's pretty hard NOT to defend oneself with a large sheet of metal or wood strapped to one's arm even if you're trying to take the shot, Asmodeous forbid you're actually trying to avoid getting hurt. The use of a shield as a weapon is based on that property, actually; it forms an impenetrable barrier that you first use to get into your enemy's reach and then use to bludgeon their face in.
Not to be offensive here, but I can kinda tell that these martials were written by people who don't understand combat. At the end of the day what will it matter if you let the shield work the way it's supposed to work? That and Throw Anything will get you Captain America, which I have trouble defining as anything but a good thing.
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ROADHOUSE!!!
I approve of this message.
I agree, but couldn't anybody just get a masterwork buckler or a darkwood heavy shield if they wanted to? You'd lose the AC bonus, but that's not all that strong anyway.
Ha, that's what I get for typing a response on my phone. My last post was @prince of knives. :-)
Okay. So Brawler strike will work the same way as the Monk. Can we reflavor it though? Something to make it feel more more like a technique learned the field (or streets) of battle rather than a mystical ability gained through heightened self awareness?I don't see any flavor text in the brawler's strike ability at all, so any flavor you see there is something you're projecting into it. In other words, you can reflavor it any way you want. Rage? Flashback to training? Racism? Memory of a lost friend? Secret ki? Bad burrito? The choice is yours!
Can we at least change the Su. tag to Ex.? Most folks don't like how the Brawler is secretly channeling Ki.It's something we're discussing, but to be honest, the Ex/Su difference for DR almost never matters. (No time to explain that right now, but it's true.)
It doesn't matter unless you're in an antimagic zone, but the difference is huge in flavor. One you could have pixie magic powering your fists, the other is you're just freakin awesome. Su. implies theres something well supernatural going on in what was believed to be Mr. Mundane Super Puncher Dude fighting Dragons. Which is awesome. All of the Brawler's abilities are Ex. except for Knockout (which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since it is easily imaginable that someone could knock something out in one punch) and Brawler Strike.
I agree, but couldn't anybody just get a masterwork buckler or a darkwood heavy shield if they wanted to? You'd lose the AC bonus, but that's not all that strong anyway.
They could, but:
A. There's no reason not to permit the shields anyway
And -
B. Captain America didn't use no buckler!
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Random Crowd Dude: What about his magical punches?
Foghorn Leghorn: Quiet yourself kid! We don't talk- I say we don't talk about that around here. (To the camera) Cute kid, but he's not the- I say he's not the brightest bulb in the box.
Whether you think it slows down Gameplay or not, the Brawler's Ki Strike needs to be changed so it doesn't so obviously copy the Monk ability. I, personally, want to see as few Monk abilities given to the Brawler as possible, but, I don't want to see his unarmed strikes be completely worthless or you end up making a bad class.
I do think his DR penetration ability should be a flat reduction in DR instead of the Ki Strike. It could be simply that the Brawler has hardened the bones in his body through combat and gains the ability to penetrate a scaling amount of DR.
[Edit] It might even be neat for the Brawler to have a special 'Cluster Shot-esque' ability for unarmed strikes only.
@Lemmy
I understand that DR would be a problem without Brawler's Strike, but I disagree with your point that having a Brawler resort to using weapons in certain situations makes his unarmed abilities not viable. Martials have different weapon proficiencies and need to adapt fighting styles to different encounters (which, in my opinion, is the best aspect of the Brawler with his martial maneuvers, not the fact that he's a good puncher). I mean, what's he going to do underwater? Hope there are never any underwater encounters? Or just use a piercing weapon? Or should Brawler's Strike grant him the ability to deal piercing damage with his unarmed strikes, because without it he sucks at punching underwater?
What if he has to fight a flying opponent? He doesn't have access to flight magic, but shooting a crossbow would invalidate his unarmed fighting that he wants to excel at all the time, so should the Brawler have a class feature that allows him to make unarmed attacks from 80 ft away? That would be awesome (Rocket Punch!), but I don't think the Brawler should get it.
I think the focus of the Brawler should be on versatility--he can punch you, yeah, but he just might need to use other methods against certain encounters, whether it's enchanted brass knuckles or otherwise. I mean, Buffy was a hell of a Brawler, but sometimes she had to bust out the occasional stake, axe, or rocket launcher to get the job done.
There are two key difference here: Balance and Expectations. We don't expect unarmed strikes or any other melee weapon to be effective against flying opponents, just like we don't expect ranged weapons to be very good at melee combat (although they can be, after a while and with the right feats).
If unarmed strike is not as good as a bow against flying opponents, that's okay. Bows are not as good as unarmed strike in melee combat either. So each weapon has its role.
However, DR is a very common ability and doesn't care if you're in melee or not. And cestus and unarmed strikes have the same role: deal damage in melee combat.
Unarmed strikes have any significant advantage over a cestus or brass knuckle. In fact, those weapons are far more effective. DR is very common. if your only option to deal with it is using weapons, then you might as well not fight unarmed at all. The cestus is cheaper, has better crit range, doesn't require an item slot to be enchanted. It's completely superior to unarmed strike in pretty much every way.
By removing Brawler Strike you're not making it so brawlers have to use weapons once in a while... You are making it so Brawlers only fight unarmed when they have no other option. You'd be removing an option from the game just because you don't like it, punishing all those who have different taste.
And again, a martial class with full BAB and capable of fighting unarmed is one of the major selling points of the class. If you don't like the ability, ignore it or remove it. Don't take it away from those who want to play an unarmed Brawler instead of "weapon-wielding Brawler that uses unarmed as his last resource".
And the reasons Brawlers don't get an ability to punch underwater is because they are not expected to fight underwater. It might happen, of course, but it's a very unusual situation for most Brawlers. "Using your main combat style", OTOH, is expected to happen pretty much all the time!
Clustered Fist....nah...
Clustered Fist....nah...
Now I think it may be the most elegant solution. DR wouldn't be as nasty to the unarmed combatant and it doesn't require more mathematical calculations which is why SKR isn't much for the Brawler level through DR idea.
For those unaware, there was a podcast last night by Know Direction with Jason Bulmahn as a guest and they talked about the Advanced Class Guide and the playtest and spoilered some of the upcoming changes to the classes.
There is a thread with mine, and others', notes here: Podcast Notes.
@Lemmy
I understand that DR would be a problem without Brawler's Strike, but I disagree with your point that having a Brawler resort to using weapons in certain situations makes his unarmed abilities not viable. Martials have different weapon proficiencies and need to adapt fighting styles to different encounters (which, in my opinion, is the best aspect of the Brawler with his martial maneuvers, not the fact that he's a good puncher). I mean, what's he going to do underwater? Hope there are never any underwater encounters? Or just use a piercing weapon? Or should Brawler's Strike grant him the ability to deal piercing damage with his unarmed strikes, because without it he sucks at punching underwater?
What if he has to fight a flying opponent? He doesn't have access to flight magic, but shooting a crossbow would invalidate his unarmed fighting that he wants to excel at all the time, so should the Brawler have a class feature that allows him to make unarmed attacks from 80 ft away? That would be awesome (Rocket Punch!), but I don't think the Brawler should get it.
I think the focus of the Brawler should be on versatility--he can punch you, yeah, but he just might need to use other methods against certain encounters, whether it's enchanted brass knuckles or otherwise. I mean, Buffy was a hell of a Brawler, but sometimes she had to bust out the occasional stake, axe, or rocket launcher to get the job done.
The movies tell us we grapple underwater and I know I have seen Batman grapple Man-bat and fight in the air. Of course I have also seen a monk try to grapple a dragon turtle in game and well, things could have gone better.
Although the brawler needs and ability to grapple a creature and force all the damage from a fall into his opponent! YEAH!
Clustered Fist....nah...
"Sweep the Leg"