| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hope they become proficient with close weapons. I have a specific character build in mind and will have to take proficiency in armor spikes to make that happen anyway.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On another note, is anyone else bothered by the flavoring of the Brawler Strike ability?
He definitely does need to be abel to overcome DR with his unarmed strikes, don't get me wrong. But the "treated as magic" just feels weird for this sort of character that has no ki power. I'm more comfortable with the idea that his blows have become so powerful that they ignore X points of DR, or something like that. Might be just me though.
On another note, is anyone else bothered by the flavoring of the Brawler Strike ability?
He definitely does need to be abel to overcome DR with his unarmed strikes, don't get me wrong. But the "treated as magic" just feels weird for this sort of character that has no ki power. I'm more comfortable with the idea that his blows have become so powerful that they ignore X points of DR, or something like that. Might be just me though.
i recalll earlier up someone suggested stunting the damage growth a bit but also applying "unarmed damage" to all "unarmed" type weapons such as brass knuckles cestus spiked gauntlets and so on. which fixes the damage reduction issue nicely.
|
i recalll earlier up someone suggested stunting the damage growth a bit but also applying "unarmed damage" to all "unarmed" type weapons such as brass knuckles cestus spiked gauntlets and so on. which fixes the damage reduction issue nicely.On another note, is anyone else bothered by the flavoring of the Brawler Strike ability?
He definitely does need to be abel to overcome DR with his unarmed strikes, don't get me wrong. But the "treated as magic" just feels weird for this sort of character that has no ki power. I'm more comfortable with the idea that his blows have become so powerful that they ignore X points of DR, or something like that. Might be just me though.
I still say give them weapon training in a single weapon they're proficient with at each level they would gain a new brawler's strike and let them apply full unarmed dmg when using any weapon they have training in.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
i recalll earlier up someone suggested stunting the damage growth a bit but also applying "unarmed damage" to all "unarmed" type weapons such as brass knuckles cestus spiked gauntlets and so on. which fixes the damage reduction issue nicely.On another note, is anyone else bothered by the flavoring of the Brawler Strike ability?
He definitely does need to be abel to overcome DR with his unarmed strikes, don't get me wrong. But the "treated as magic" just feels weird for this sort of character that has no ki power. I'm more comfortable with the idea that his blows have become so powerful that they ignore X points of DR, or something like that. Might be just me though.
I definitely support this idea, and honestly think it should be that way regardless, even for monks. What's the point of using weapons at all when the damage on your unarmed strikes keeps scaling up? If you can swing that hard with just your fists, why would you deal LESS damage with a sword? Makes no sense to me.
|
|
I definitely support this idea, and honestly think it should be that way regardless, even for monks. What's the point of using weapons at all when the damage on your unarmed strikes keeps scaling up? If you can swing that hard with just your fists, why would you deal LESS damage with a sword? Makes no sense to me.
Well to be fair, Monks aren't expected to use weapons.
I definitely support this idea, and honestly think it should be that way regardless, even for monks. What's the point of using weapons at all when the damage on your unarmed strikes keeps scaling up? If you can swing that hard with just your fists, why would you deal LESS damage with a sword? Makes no sense to me.Well to be fair, Monks aren't expected to use weapons.
No they're not, but it sort of dangles an option in a player's face that is never a viable one. The Zen Archer is really the only weapon-using Monk archetype that holds water IMO, but there doesn't seem to be a way to make an equally strong monastic sword fighter from the class. For that sort of guy you have to go magus kensai.
...Speaking of archetypes, if the devs want me to love them forever, they would make a Brawler archetype in the book that focused on Improvised Weapons <3
|
|
No they're not, but it sort of dangles an option in a player's face that is never a viable one. The Zen Archer is really the only weapon-using Monk archetype that holds water IMO, but there doesn't seem to be a way to make an equally strong monastic sword fighter from the class. For that sort of guy you have to go magus kensai.
Oh c'mon, the Sohei is hell on wheels.
Oh c'mon, the Sohei is hell on wheels.
Now I feel like building a roller-skating Tiefling Sohei Monk...
Oh c'mon, the Sohei is hell on wheels.
No they're not, but it sort of dangles an option in a player's face that is never a viable one. The Zen Archer is really the only weapon-using Monk archetype that holds water IMO, but there doesn't seem to be a way to make an equally strong monastic sword fighter from the class. For that sort of guy you have to go magus kensai.
I had actually forgotten about this one. So +1 for monks as is, but the problem remains for all but those 2 archetypes. The class favors the use of unarmed strikes, the game environment favors the use of weapons, and a vanilla monk is caught between a rock and a hard place.
Only if the DM considers them a mount for the purpose of the monastic mount ability. Seriously, roller skates won't last 3 rounds in combat without evasion.Oh c'mon, the Sohei is hell on wheels.Now I feel like building a roller-skating Tiefling Sohei Monk...
I would rule that they work like the skate psionic power more or less. +5 speed, +15 going downhill, -5 going uphill. Then there would maybe be penalties to CMD for trip.
|
|
I had actually forgotten about this one. So +1 for monks as is, but the problem remains for all but those 2 archetypes. The class favors the use of unarmed strikes, the game environment favors the use of weapons, and a vanilla monk is caught between a rock and a hard place.Oh c'mon, the Sohei is hell on wheels.
No they're not, but it sort of dangles an option in a player's face that is never a viable one. The Zen Archer is really the only weapon-using Monk archetype that holds water IMO, but there doesn't seem to be a way to make an equally strong monastic sword fighter from the class. For that sort of guy you have to go magus kensai.
I'm probably missing something, but other than the AoMF having a +5 limit, I really don't see how a monk is hurt by using unarmed strikes over weapons. And even if you absolutely feel that they are, there's no reason the class should grant scaling damage to weapons if no other class does. You just make the choice, use better unarmed strikes or weapons like the other martial classes. A monk using a weapon isn't at a disadvantage compared to any other class using the same weapon.
Now again that shouldn't reflect on the brawler. I think the brawler should get scaling weapon damage, but only because 1) giving them I can't believe it's not ki strike doesn't fit thematically, and 2) all the weapons in the close group are 1d4 damage. At least monks have a couple 1d8 options.
So for the sake of comparison I cooked up some Brawler options vs fighters to see if the brawler keeps up at level 20.
There's two options in each class, a dedicated tank, and a damage brute. I imagine people could out twink these builds if they tried, but I did about as much as I felt reasonable (I didn't bother with boots of speed since I've rarely been in a party without haste since none of them have them it's a wash- more or less).
AC should be 46 here, Herolab forgot to apply fighting defensively.
Brawler Tank
Human (Shoanti) Brawler 20
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +28
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 43, touch 29, flat-footed 31 (+9 armor, +6 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +6 dodge, +1 insight)
hp 284 (20d10+160)
Fort +26, Ref +26, Will +20
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +5 glamered, heartseeker, holy, impervious adamantine cestus +34/+29/+24/+19 (1d4+33/17-20/×2+2d6 vs. Evil) and
. . unarmed strike +29/+24/+19/+14 (2d10+26/×2)
Special Attacks brawler's flurry, stunning fist (20/day, DC 24)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 34, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +20; CMB +29 (+31 dirty trick, +32 disarm, +36 grapple, +30 sunder, +33 trip); CMD 61 (63 vs. dirty trick, 64 vs. disarm, 66 vs. grapple, 62 vs. sunder, 65 vs. trip)
Feats Boar Style, Combat Style Master, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Critical Focus, Dodge, Exhausting Critical, Greater Weapon Focus (cestus), Greater Weapon Specialization (cestus), Improved Critical (cestus), Improved Iron Will, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Tiring Critical, Weapon Focus (cestus), Weapon Specialization (cestus)
Traits bred for war (shoanti), indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +31, Appraise +1, Bluff +0, Climb +30, Diplomacy +0, Disguise +0, Escape Artist +8, Fly +8, Handle Animal +4, Heal +5, Intimidate +24, Perception +28, Ride +12, Sense Motive +28, Stealth +8, Survival +5 (+7 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +20
Languages Common, Shoanti
SQ ac bonus, awesome blow, brawler strike (adamantine), brawler strike (alignment), brawler strike (cold iron/silver), brawler strike (magic), brawling, glamered, heartseeker, impervious, impervious, knockout, martial maneuvers, unarmed strike
Combat Gear Deliquescent gloves, Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Quick runner's shirt (1/day); Other Gear +5 Brawling, Glamered, Impervious Mithral Chain sh, +5 Glamered, Heartseeker, Holy, Impervious Adamant, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Manual of bodily health +4, Manual of gainful exercise +5, Manual of quickness of action +4, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Stone of good luck (Luckstone), Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Winged boots (3/day), 87200 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +4 (Ex) When a brawler wears light or no armor, she gains a dodge bonus to AC and CMD.
Awesome Blow (Ex) At 20th level, the brawler may as a standard action perform a combat maneuver against a corporeal creature of her size or smaller. If the combat maneuver succeeds, the opponent takes damage as if the brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarme
Boar Style Unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning or piercing damage
Brawler Strike (Adamantine) (Su) Your unarmed strikes are treated as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Brawler Strike (Alignment) (Good) (Su) Your unarmed strikes are treated as an alignment for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Brawler Strike (Cold Iron/Silver) (Su) Your unarmed strikes are treated as cold iron & silver for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Brawler Strike (Magic) (Su) Your unarmed strikes are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Brawler's Flurry (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with unarmed strikes or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does
Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Combat Style Master May switch styles as a free action
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Exhausting Critical Critical hit Exhausts target.
Glamered Weapon is cloaked in illusion and doesn't radiate magic. Suppressed 1 min after attack.
Heartseeker Ignore concealment miss % vs living foes with a heart (not aberration/ooze/plant/elemental).
Impervious 2x enhance bonus to hardness, Hp, break DC. Item gains +5 to saves.
Impervious Double enhancement bonus to hardness, Hp, break DC. Immune to rust/rot.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Knockout (7/day) (DC 32) (Su) Starting at 16th level, a brawler can unleash a devastating attack that can instantly knock a target unconscious. She must announce this intent before making her attack roll. If the brawler strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the bl
Martial Maneuvers (swift action) () (Ex) Spend a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat for 1 minute.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Stunning Fist (20/day) (DC 24) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Tiring Critical Critical hit fatigues target.
Unarmed Strike (2d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.
sword and board
Human (Taldan) Fighter 20
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +33
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 51, touch 23, flat-footed 45 (+14 armor, +9 shield, +5 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight)
hp 304 (20d10+180)
Fort +26, Ref +20, Will +19 (+5 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +5; DR 5/—
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash +31/+26/+21/+16 (1d4+28/×2) and
. . +5 glamered, heartseeker, impervious, vicious adamantine scimitar +40/+35/+30/+25 (1d6+39/15-20/×2+2d6 (& 1d6 to wielder))
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +6, light blades +3, bows +5, close +4)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 34, Dex 20, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +20; CMB +28 (+30 sunder); CMD 55 (59 vs. disarm, 61 vs. sunder)
Feats Bleeding Critical, Critical Focus, Critical Mastery, Dazing Assault, Dodge, Exhausting Critical, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (scimitar), Greater Weapon Specialization (scimitar), Improved Critical (scimitar), Improved Iron Will, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Lunge, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Staggering Critical, Tiring Critical, Toughness, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Weapon Specialization (scimitar)
Traits indomitable faith, seeker
Skills Acrobatics +4, Appraise +1, Bluff +1, Climb +15, Diplomacy +1, Disguise +1, Escape Artist +4, Fly +4, Heal +4, Intimidate +20, Perception +33, Ride +8, Sense Motive +4, Stealth +4, Survival +27 (+29 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +16
Languages Common
SQ glamered, heartseeker, impervious, impervious, impervious, weapon mastery
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day); Other Gear +5 Glamered, Impervious Adamantine Full plate, +5 Impervious Heavy steel shield, +5 Glamered, Heartseeker, Impervious, Vicious Adam, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Eyes of the eagle, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Manual of bodily health +4, Manual of gainful exercise +5, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Stone of good luck (Luckstone), Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Winged boots (3/day), 25115 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bleeding Critical Critical Hits deal 2d6 bleed damage.
Bravery +5 (Ex) +5 to Will save vs. Fear
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Critical Mastery (2 Critical feats) Apply extra Critical feats to a critical hit rather than one.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Dazing Assault (DC 30) -5 to all attacks and maneuvers but struck foes are dazed 1 rd (Fort neg).
Exhausting Critical Critical hit Exhausts target.
Glamered Weapon is cloaked in illusion and doesn't radiate magic. Suppressed 1 min after attack.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Heartseeker Ignore concealment miss % vs living foes with a heart (not aberration/ooze/plant/elemental).
Impervious Double enhancement bonus to hardness, Hp, break DC. Immune to rust/rot.
Impervious 2x enhance bonus to hardness, Hp, break DC. Item gains +5 to saves.
Impervious 2x enhance bonus to hardness, Hp, break DC. Item gains +5 to saves.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Staggering Critical (DC 30) Critical hit staggers target
Tiring Critical Critical hit fatigues target.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Weapon Mastery (-Choose-) (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +6 (Ex) +6 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Blades, Light) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +5 (Ex) +5 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.
Unarmed Brawler
Human (Shoanti) Brawler 20
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +28
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 37, touch 28, flat-footed 26 (+9 armor, +6 Dex, +5 deflection, +5 dodge, +1 insight)
hp 284 (20d10+160)
Fort +26, Ref +26, Will +20; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +36/+31/+26/+21 (2d10+42/×2)
Special Attacks brawler's flurry, stunning fist (20/day, DC 24)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 34, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +20; CMB +28 (+30 dirty trick, +31 disarm, +39 grapple, +29 sunder, +32 trip); CMD 60 (62 vs. dirty trick, 63 vs. disarm, 67 vs. grapple, 61 vs. sunder, 64 vs. trip)
Feats Boar Style, Combat Style Master, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Dragon Ferocity, Dragon Style, Greater Grapple, Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Greater Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Iron Will, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)
Traits indomitable faith, mizu ki hikari rebel
Skills Acrobatics +31, Appraise +1, Bluff +0, Climb +30, Diplomacy +0, Disguise +0, Escape Artist +8, Fly +8, Handle Animal +4, Heal +5, Intimidate +23, Perception +28, Ride +12, Sense Motive +28, Stealth +8, Survival +5 (+7 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +20
Languages Common, Shoanti
SQ ac bonus, awesome blow, brawler strike (adamantine), brawler strike (alignment), brawler strike (cold iron/silver), brawler strike (magic), brawling, impervious, knockout, martial maneuvers, unarmed strike
Combat Gear Deliquescent gloves, Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Quick runner's shirt (1/day); Other Gear +5 Brawling, Glamered, Impervious Mithral Chain sh, Amulet of mighty fists +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Manual of bodily health +4, Manual of gainful exercise +5, Manual of quickness of action +4, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Stone of good luck (Luckstone), Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Winged boots (3/day), 175205 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +4 (Ex) When a brawler wears light or no armor, she gains a dodge bonus to AC and CMD.
Awesome Blow (Ex) At 20th level, the brawler may as a standard action perform a combat maneuver against a corporeal creature of her size or smaller. If the combat maneuver succeeds, the opponent takes damage as if the brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarme
Boar Style Unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning or piercing damage
Brawler Strike (Adamantine) (Su) Your unarmed strikes are treated as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Brawler Strike (Alignment) (Good) (Su) Your unarmed strikes are treated as an alignment for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Brawler Strike (Cold Iron/Silver) (Su) Your unarmed strikes are treated as cold iron & silver for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Brawler Strike (Magic) (Su) Your unarmed strikes are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Brawler's Flurry (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with unarmed strikes or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does
Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Combat Style Master May switch styles as a free action
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Dragon Ferocity +6, 1d4+12 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Greater Grapple Maintaining a grapple is a move action, allowing you to make 2 checks a round.
Impervious 2x enhance bonus to hardness, Hp, break DC. Item gains +5 to saves.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Knockout (7/day) (DC 32) (Su) Starting at 16th level, a brawler can unleash a devastating attack that can instantly knock a target unconscious. She must announce this intent before making her attack roll. If the brawler strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the bl
Martial Maneuvers (swift action) () (Ex) Spend a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat for 1 minute.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Stunning Fist (20/day) (DC 24) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Unarmed Strike (2d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.
It should be noted that some of these numbers are not correct as Herolab does not correctly incorporate the effects of the two handed fighter archetype in the stats. They were incorporated into the DPR calcuations.
Two Hander
Human Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 20
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +28
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 38, touch 19, flat-footed 36 (+14 armor, +1 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight)
hp 304 (20d10+180)
Fort +26, Ref +20, Will +19; +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
DR 3/—
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +5 glamered, heartseeker, impervious, vicious adamantine nodachi +40/+35/+30/+25 (1d10+51/15-20/×2+2d6 (& 1d6 to wielder))
Special Attacks backswing, devastating blow, overhand chop, piledriver, shattering strike, weapon training abilities (heavy blades +6, light blades +3, bows +5, close +4)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 34, Dex 20, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +20; CMB +28 (+35 sunder); CMD 51 (55 vs. disarm, 62 vs. sunder)
Feats Bleeding Critical, Critical Focus, Critical Mastery, Dazing Assault, Dodge, Exhausting Critical, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (nodachi), Greater Weapon Specialization (nodachi), Improved Critical (nodachi), Improved Iron Will, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Lunge, Power Attack, Staggering Critical, Step Up, Tiring Critical, Toughness, Weapon Focus (nodachi), Weapon Specialization (nodachi)
Traits indomitable faith, seeker
Skills Acrobatics +2 (-2 jump), Appraise +1, Bluff +1, Climb +19, Diplomacy +1, Disguise +1, Escape Artist +2, Fly +2, Heal +4, Intimidate +24, Perception +28, Ride +10, Sense Motive +4, Stealth +2, Survival +8 (+10 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +19
Languages Common
SQ glamered, heartseeker, impervious, impervious, weapon mastery
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Quick runner's shirt (1/day); Other Gear +5 Comfort, Glamered, Impervious Adamantine Full p, +5 Glamered, Heartseeker, Impervious, Vicious Adam, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of dueling, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Manual of bodily health +4, Manual of gainful exercise +5, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Stone of good luck (Luckstone), Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Winged boots (3/day), 59740 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Backswing (Ex) Attacks after the first in a full attack receive 2x STR bonus.
Bleeding Critical Critical Hits deal 2d6 bleed damage.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Critical Mastery (2 Critical feats) Apply extra Critical feats to a critical hit rather than one.
Damage Reduction (3/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Dazing Assault (DC 30) -5 to all attacks and maneuvers but struck foes are dazed 1 rd (Fort neg).
Devastating Blow (Ex) Standard Action: single melee attack at -5 is a critical threat.
Exhausting Critical Critical hit Exhausts target.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Glamered Weapon is cloaked in illusion and doesn't radiate magic. Suppressed 1 min after attack.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Heartseeker Ignore concealment miss % vs living foes with a heart (not aberration/ooze/plant/elemental).
Impervious 2x enhance bonus to hardness, Hp, break DC. Item gains +5 to saves.
Impervious Double enhancement bonus to hardness, Hp, break DC. Immune to rust/rot.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Overhand Chop (Ex) Single attacks with two-handed weapons receive double STR bonus.
Piledriver (Ex) Standard action: attack with a two handed weapon, if successful, free bull rush or trip w/o AoO.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Shattering Strike +5 (Ex) +5 Sunder and damage vs. objects.
Staggering Critical (DC 30) Critical hit staggers target
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Tiring Critical Critical hit fatigues target.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Weapon Mastery (-Choose-) (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +6 (Ex) +6 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Blades, Light) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +5 (Ex) +5 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.
Now as you can see in both cases the fighter has better AC, but inferior saves. I haven't done the math to check if Herolab screwed up the CMD, but if it is correct, the brawlers are pretty close to immune to those, which the fighter is not (with some exceptions).
Now we can look at damage output (damage per round against an AC of 40, which is a level +3 CR):
Brawler Tank: 153.7
Fighter Tank:249.2
Brawler Brute: 193.7
Fighter Brute: 361.5
As you can see the brawler lags behind appreciably on damage. They really don't seem to get much in return for it either. Sure, they have a better reflex save, but at high level it's the other two saves that kill you. The very high CMD is nice, but the flip side of that with the CMB bonus is fairly irrelevant at high levels.
Personally I think the Brawler is a decent concept, but I don't think it keeps up. Yes, maybe the fighter should be a better fighter. I can accept that. But the gap really is rather large IMO.
Perhaps my twink fu is weak, but I believe I've done a reasonable job of pulling out the stops.
I'm probably missing something, but other than the AoMF having a +5 limit, I really don't see how a monk is hurt by using unarmed strikes over weapons.
The main weakness on unarmed attacks is their really lousy critical characteristics, which I would say are quite important at high level.
I'm probably missing something, but other than the AoMF having a +5 limit, I really don't see how a monk is hurt by using unarmed strikes over weapons.The main weakness on unarmed attacks is their really lousy critical characteristics, which I would say are quite important at high level.
AoMF also take an item slot and cost twice as much as an equivalent weapon. Then there is the aforementioned problem of having weak critical threat range and multiplier.
AoMF also take an item slot and cost twice as much as an equivalent weapon. Then there is the aforementioned problem of having weak critical threat range and multiplier.
Yes, the money point is important as well, especially in the mid levels.
I definitely support this idea, and honestly think it should be that way regardless, even for monks. What's the point of using weapons at all when the damage on your unarmed strikes keeps scaling up? If you can swing that hard with just your fists, why would you deal LESS damage with a sword? Makes no sense to me.i recalll earlier up someone suggested stunting the damage growth a bit but also applying "unarmed damage" to all "unarmed" type weapons such as brass knuckles cestus spiked gauntlets and so on. which fixes the damage reduction issue nicely.On another note, is anyone else bothered by the flavoring of the Brawler Strike ability?
He definitely does need to be abel to overcome DR with his unarmed strikes, don't get me wrong. But the "treated as magic" just feels weird for this sort of character that has no ki power. I'm more comfortable with the idea that his blows have become so powerful that they ignore X points of DR, or something like that. Might be just me though.
it also gives weapons like brass knuckles and the cestus a reason to exist because as is i don't think i've ever seen a use for them.
I'm probably missing something, but other than the AoMF having a +5 limit, I really don't see how a monk is hurt by using unarmed strikes over weapons. And even if you absolutely feel that they are, there's no reason the class should grant scaling damage to weapons if no other class does. You just make the choice, use better unarmed strikes or weapons like the other martial classes. A monk using a weapon isn't at a disadvantage compared to any other class using the same weapon.
Now again that shouldn't reflect on the brawler. I think the brawler should get scaling weapon damage, but only because 1) giving them I can't believe it's not ki strike doesn't fit thematically, and 2) all the weapons in the close group are 1d4 damage. At least monks have a couple 1d8 options.
You're missing a lot. If you want to find out why unarmed strikes vs weapons is so terrible, go read 1 of the thousands upon thousands of Monk threads. If you continue down this path, it will just turn this thread into another 'Monks suck' thread like the many that have before.
On another note, is anyone else bothered by the flavoring of the Brawler Strike ability?
He definitely does need to be abel to overcome DR with his unarmed strikes, don't get me wrong. But the "treated as magic" just feels weird for this sort of character that has no ki power. I'm more comfortable with the idea that his blows have become so powerful that they ignore X points of DR, or something like that. Might be just me though.
I am totally in favor of removing Monk abilities from the Brawler. :D
|
|
You're missing a lot. If you want to find out why unarmed strikes vs weapons is so terrible, go read 1 of the thousands upon thousands of Monk threads.
I'd rather not. Or rather I've skimmed said threads before, saw a writhing pit of minmaxing lunatics and stepped away.
My only real gripe is the downsides of unarmed fighting are there, but they're not enough to warrant the hatred people give it. Yeah the crit profile isnt optimum, but you still have the biggest damage dice in the game and improved crit as a bonus feat option. AoMF needs to be updated to make it more attractive since paizo canonized you can flurry with one fist, so yeah there's that.I know most powergamers will never be happy until monks get a built in +10 enhancement bonus at level 3, and they all have math to back up why that's perfectly balanced. I honestly can't be made to care. I played monk variants in the last 3 games my group ran and had no problem being competative in damage output with unarmed strikes. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Is it crippling? No.
I'd rather not. Or rather I've skimmed said threads before, saw a writhing pit of minmaxing lunatics and stepped away.
My only real gripe is the downsides of unarmed fighting are there, but they're not enough to warrant the hatred people give it. Yeah the crit profile isnt optimum, but you still have the biggest damage dice in the game and improved crit as a bonus feat option. AoMF needs to be updated to make it more attractive since paizo canonized you can flurry with one fist, so yeah there's that.
I know most powergamers will never be happy until monks get a built in +10 enhancement bonus at level 3, and they all have math to back up why that's perfectly balanced. I honestly can't be made to care. I played monk variants in the last 3 games my group ran and had no problem being competative in damage output with unarmed strikes. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Is it crippling? No.
So you're saying the numbers don't matter. OK. Makes for a short discussion (hint biggest damage die doesn't mean diddly and improved crit on a 20x2 weapon is a wasted feat).
How about we accept this? Nobody said you had to optimize. However balance has to be considered on that basis because to do otherwise means you aren't really balancing, just picking random numbers from a hat.
OK, here's a couple more data points. This time we'll do level 11, and I'll leave off the two handed archetype on the fighter. I kept the brawler unarmed, and he's somewhat flexible being able to tank some.
unarmed 11
Human Brawler 11
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 26, touch 19, flat-footed 20 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection, +4 dodge, +1 insight)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +8
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +21/+16/+11 (1d10+20/×2)
Special Attacks brawler's flurry, stunning fist (11/day, DC 16)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +11; CMB +17 (+21 grapple); CMD 37 (39 vs. grapple)
Feats Combat Style Master, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Dragon Ferocity, Dragon Style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)
Traits indomitable faith, mizu ki hikari rebel
Skills Acrobatics +16, Climb +17, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Perception +15, Ride +8, Sense Motive +15, Swim +17
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus, brawler strike (cold iron/silver), brawler strike (magic), brawling, martial maneuvers, unarmed strike
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day); Other Gear +3 Brawling Mithral Chain shirt, Amulet of mighty fists +2, Belt of giant strength +4, Boots of the cat, Cloak of resistance +3, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ring of protection +1, 6900 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +2 (Ex) When a brawler wears light or no armor, she gains a dodge bonus to AC and CMD.
Boots of the cat When falling, always land on feet and take the minimum damage.
Brawler Strike (Cold Iron/Silver) (Su) Your unarmed strikes are treated as cold iron & silver for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Brawler Strike (Magic) (Su) Your unarmed strikes are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Brawler's Flurry (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with unarmed strikes or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does
Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Combat Style Master May switch styles as a free action
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Martial Maneuvers (move action) () (Ex) Spend a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat for 1 minute.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 16) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
fighter 11
Human Fighter 11
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 23 (+12 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 103 (11d10+33)
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +9 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 adamantine falchion +24/+19/+14 (2d4+28/15-20/×2)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +4, bows +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +11; CMB +15 (+17 sunder); CMD 31 (35 vs. disarm, 37 vs. sunder)
Feats Bloody Assault, Critical Focus, Dazing Assault, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (falchion), Improved Critical (falchion), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lunge, Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (falchion), Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Traits indomitable faith, seeker
Skills Climb +13, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +15, Knowledge (engineering) +7, Perception +15, Survival +14, Swim +13
Languages Abyssal, Common
Other Gear +3 Comfort Full plate, +3 Adamantine Falchion, Belt of giant strength +4, Boots of the cat, Cloak of resistance +3, Gloves of dueling, Ring of protection +1, 2275 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bloody Assault Take -5 to all attacks and maneuvers until your next turn to add 1d4 bleed damage to all weapon melee attacks.
Boots of the cat When falling, always land on feet and take the minimum damage.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Dazing Assault (DC 21) -5 to all attacks and maneuvers but struck foes are dazed 1 rd (Fort neg).
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
sword and board 11
Human Fighter 11
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 34, touch 14, flat-footed 31 (+12 armor, +7 shield, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 103 (11d10+33)
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +9 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash +14/+9/+4 (1d4+12/×2) and
. . +3 adamantine scimitar +21/+16/+11 (1d6+19/18-20/×2)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +4, bows +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +11; CMB +14 (+16 sunder); CMD 31 (35 vs. disarm, 37 vs. sunder)
Feats Critical Focus, Dazing Assault, Dodge, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (falchion), Improved Critical (falchion), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Toughness, Weapon Focus (falchion), Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Traits indomitable faith, seeker
Skills Climb +11, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +15, Knowledge (engineering) +7, Perception +15, Survival +14, Swim +11
Languages Abyssal, Common
Other Gear +3 Comfort Full plate, +3 Heavy steel shield, +3 Adamantine Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +2, Boots of the cat, Cloak of resistance +3, Gloves of dueling, Ring of protection +1, 3105 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Boots of the cat When falling, always land on feet and take the minimum damage.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Dazing Assault (DC 21) -5 to all attacks and maneuvers but struck foes are dazed 1 rd (Fort neg).
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
So to sum up:
The Brawler can either use dragon style and go for damage, or crane style and go for defense (though if they get off a riposte, it may well do more damage, but I don't really want to try to figure out that math). With dragon style up, AC is 25. With crane style up and fighting defensively AC is 29.
Two handed fighter has an AC of 25 (I didn't really pursue AC much there, it could be better, I chased damage). Sword and board fighter has an AC of 34 (again, could have been higher, did chase some damage on the +3 weapon).
Now let's compare damage:
Brawler (dragon style): 75.2 DPR
Brawler (crane style): 59.1 DPR
Sword and Board: 62.1
Two Hander: 113.5
I tend to like picking level 11 for comparison since that's the effective max play level in PFS which is a common play type for a lot of people, and it is a place where people get to try out more builds. As seem from the numbers, again the brawler lags in damage. With crane wing, you can argue the defense isn't bad, but then they were even behind the sword and board in DPR (for 5 points less of AC). Against a single foe, the brawler would likely be tougher due to crane, but against multiple foes, I'd prefer the extra 5 AC.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
HAve they specified you can take style feats with amrtial maneuvers? They're alomst all combat feats that universally improves attack or defenses. I think the answer is yes. IF this is true than I wouldn't buil that brawler the way you have. I'd instead pick out feats to serve as prereqs and martial maneuver the style needed for the situation. This frees up feats to allow me to work on getting Medusa's Wrath which can add even more damage.
I am totally in favor of removing Monk abilities from the Brawler. :DOn another note, is anyone else bothered by the flavoring of the Brawler Strike ability?
He definitely does need to be abel to overcome DR with his unarmed strikes, don't get me wrong. But the "treated as magic" just feels weird for this sort of character that has no ki power. I'm more comfortable with the idea that his blows have become so powerful that they ignore X points of DR, or something like that. Might be just me though.
I think what would be perfect is if the scaling damage worked on all close weapons and removed ki strike. Because then we could just enchant them to bypass DR like everyone else.
HAve they specified you can take style feats with amrtial maneuvers? They're alomst all combat feats that universally improves attack or defenses. I think the answer is yes. IF this is true than I wouldn't buil that brawler the way you have. I'd instead pick out feats to serve as prereqs and martial maneuver the style needed for the situation. This frees up feats to allow me to work on getting Medusa's Wrath which can add even more damage.
That's an interesting notion, but taking into account that you have to drop a condition on them before it actually applies makes the math appreciably more ugly.
I think what would be perfect is if the scaling damage worked on all close weapons and removed ki strike. Because then we could just enchant them to bypass DR like everyone else.
Yes, but some people just want to punch, and given the cost of AoMF, that's fairly pricey to get past much of the DR you encounter. Personally I rather liked the idea someone suggested of coming up with an ability analogous to clustered shots when flurrying unarmed.
Yes, but some people just want to punch, and given the cost of AoMF, that's fairly pricey to get past much of the DR you encounter. Personally I rather liked the idea someone suggested of coming up with an ability analogous to clustered shots when flurrying unarmed.I think what would be perfect is if the scaling damage worked on all close weapons and removed ki strike. Because then we could just enchant them to bypass DR like everyone else.
Would you say the gauntlet is doing more of the work, or your fist? =)
I think its one of the better solutions that actually lets you punch through DR reasonably at the same levels others do. Whereas a melee clustered shots just has you mitigating it like an Archer. And the Archer is going to have an easier time just bypassing the DR.
And it lets us avoid the Amulet of Mighty Fists which is a god awful item. The further we get away from forcing us to use it in unarmed builds the better.
Honestly I don't really have a beef with the solution provided already in the class myself. Granted I can see why some object to it on feel, but there are times that you simply have to nod to mechanics when designing things.
Honestly I don't really have a beef with the solution provided already in the class myself. Granted I can see why some object to it on feel, but there are times that you simply have to nod to mechanics when designing things.
Neither do I since I fluff it just hitting so hard you punch through that sort of thing. But I do respect people's desires to flush what is decidedly a Monkish feature out of a mundane Brawler.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's an interesting notion, but taking into account that you have to drop a condition on them before it actually applies makes the math appreciably more ugly.
I'm not so sure. If you work off the standard set of feats that it takes to get to medusa's wrath than yeah I can see that. But the list is quite big. Honestly all you need to do is get them flatfooted which you can have if you manage to blind them through the dirty trick combat maneuver.
Still, I think this class is deeper than mere damage numbers. There's a lot going on here underneath that with martial maneuvers and the sheer swathe of things you can martial maneuver into.
The brawler might very well become my favorite martial class.
|
I'm not so sure. If you work off the standard set of feats that it takes to get to medusa's wrath than yeah I can see that. But the list is quite big. Honestly all you need to do is get them flatfooted which you can have if you manage to blind them through the dirty trick combat maneuver.Still, I think this class is deeper than mere damage numbers. There's a lot going on here underneath that with martial maneuvers and the sheer swathe of things you can martial maneuver into.
The brawler might very well become my favorite martial class.
Very much this. One of the first things I jumped to was how to create a feat path that would allow me to use Martial maneuvers to jump into whatever combat style or maneuver tree the situation most warranted. The Brawler has a lot of potential to be able to bring exactly the right techniques to the table at any given time.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Very much this. One of the first things I jumped to was how to create a feat path that would allow me to use Martial maneuvers to jump into whatever combat style or maneuver tree the situation most warranted. The Brawler has a lot of potential to be able to bring exactly the right techniques to the table at any given time.
I'm not so sure. If you work off the standard set of feats that it takes to get to medusa's wrath than yeah I can see that. But the list is quite big. Honestly all you need to do is get them flatfooted which you can have if you manage to blind them through the dirty trick combat maneuver.Still, I think this class is deeper than mere damage numbers. There's a lot going on here underneath that with martial maneuvers and the sheer swathe of things you can martial maneuver into.
The brawler might very well become my favorite martial class.
That is what I did with Berkley "The Hammer" Naveel: large feat potential.
The problem is the low duration and low number of uses a day. At level 10 Berkley can do a "full" feat set once (taking 3 feats) and then still have 2 feats left for the rest of the day. It's just not feasible in practice to rely on Martial Maneuvers to do large scale adaption for combat in each encounter. You need to build to be able to not rely on it, and then can use Martial Maneuvers either to cherry-pick a single feat (toolbox style). Or build to work reliably without Martial Maneuvers, and then go into alpha mode only in extreme encounters.
Some comparison builds:
Berkley "The Hammer" Naveel large feat potential
Mikiko Konda Snake Style toolbox build
nVali Letoba ignores flurries entirely
Ruby Spring bleeds and shreds enemies
I still say just build in the fighter only feats Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike.
|
|
So you're saying the numbers don't matter. OK. Makes for a short discussion (hint biggest damage die doesn't mean diddly and improved crit on a 20x2 weapon is a wasted feat).
How about we accept this? Nobody said you had to optimize. However balance has to be considered on that basis because to do otherwise means you aren't really balancing, just picking random numbers from a hat.
I'm saying I've never seen the theorycraft and the actual gameplay add up. People whine endlessly about balance, but when game day rolls around monks are either at the top in martial damage or close enough to not matter.
I'm saying I've never seen the theorycraft and the actual gameplay add up. People whine endlessly about balance, but when game day rolls around monks are either at the top in martial damage or close enough to not matter.
And yet your anecdote is countered by my anecdote of never seeing a monk do any real damage in many a game of PFS. I have seen them play effective games with maneuvers, but as a damage class, it has never held up at all (the only heavy damage monk I've seen was mostly other classes, so I never say why it was called a monk). I've played quite a few tables over the level span of the game.
Since we can both make claims on what we've seen, the argument can't be settled. Hence we are reduced to derivable facts, and that means numbers.
I'm not so sure. If you work off the standard set of feats that it takes to get to medusa's wrath than yeah I can see that. But the list is quite big. Honestly all you need to do is get them flatfooted which you can have if you manage to blind them through the dirty trick combat maneuver.
Still, I think this class is deeper than mere damage numbers. There's a lot going on here underneath that with martial maneuvers and the sheer swathe of things you can martial maneuver into.
The brawler might very well become my favorite martial class.
I think the limits of martial maneuvers (the uses and action economy) do put something of a damper on that. Sure, if you don't have many combats of consequence each day, it will be fine. But if thing are hectic multiple times, I think that trick will come up short.
As for dirty trick, that is a neat option, but you've just made yourself more MAD since you now need a 13 Int. Also, that is yet another feat to get to using Medusa's wrath.
I do think you are correct that some interesting angles are present and also that it's not really a straight up damage class. I just think the damage gap is a little too large IMO. I'm not really sure what suggestion I might favor though. Some good ideas are floating around. The idea of upping close weapon damage, or the increasing threat range on unarmed strike both have something to offer in solving the damage disparity.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not so sure. If you work off the standard set of feats that it takes to get to medusa's wrath than yeah I can see that. But the list is quite big. Honestly all you need to do is get them flatfooted which you can have if you manage to blind them through the dirty trick combat maneuver.
Still, I think this class is deeper than mere damage numbers. There's a lot going on here underneath that with martial maneuvers and the sheer swathe of things you can martial maneuver into.
The brawler might very well become my favorite martial class.
I think the limits of martial maneuvers (the uses and action economy) do put something of a damper on that. Sure, if you don't have many combats of consequence each day, it will be fine. But if thing are hectic multiple times, I think that trick will come up short.
As for dirty trick, that is a neat option, but you've just made yourself more MAD since you now need a 13 Int. Also, that is yet another feat to get to using Medusa's wrath.
I do think you are correct that some interesting angles are present and also that it's not really a straight up damage class. I just think the damage gap is a little too large IMO. I'm not really sure what suggestion I might favor though. Some good ideas are floating around. The idea of upping close weapon damage, or the increasing threat range on unarmed strike both have something to offer in solving the damage disparity.
Maybe. I'd honestly like to see the limit on martial maneuvers removed almost entirely and have the feats last like rounds per brawler level or something like that. The action economy and prerequisite requirement are balancing enough. Though I can't say for certain what the impact might be. The language needs clarification that much is for sure.
I do agree they need a mechanic that boosts overall attack and damage like literally every other martial class gets (smite, rage, weapon training, favored enemy, challenge, gun training) if nothing else.
AS for MAD I don't think even that's a huge worry since the class doesn't need charisma, nor do you need to start out with 13 wisdom and Int to eventually get your prereqs out of the way. You can't take stunning fist until 8th and you may have better things to take pre-4th level so starting with 12 in these stats is perfectly okay outside of a 15pt. buy.
|
|
****
Maybe. I'd honestly like to see the limit on martial maneuvers removed almost entirely and have the feats last like rounds per brawler level or something like that. The action economy and prerequisite requirement are balancing enough. Though I can't say for certain what the impact might be. The language needs clarification that much is for sure.
I do agree they need a mechanic that boosts overall attack and damage like literally every other martial class gets (smite, rage, weapon training, favored enemy, challenge, gun training) if nothing...
Once again Tark says pretty much everything I would have said. I think the uses per day of Martial Maneuvers is pretty arbitrary and unnecessary, and could/should be done away with entirely. I think it might run a little more smoothly and work better on a rds/day scale similar to Barbarian Rage if they really feel it needs to be limited use.
Honestly I don't really have a beef with the solution provided already in the class myself. Granted I can see why some object to it on feel, but there are times that you simply have to nod to mechanics when designing things.Neither do I since I fluff it just hitting so hard you punch through that sort of thing. But I do respect people's desires to flush what is decidedly a Monkish feature out of a mundane Brawler.
Ultimately I would be fine if the ability did not change. I would still play the class and just refluff it with my GM/players, but there is definitely a more appropriate solution to the DR problem for this class. It may not be as high priority as, say, changing the weapon proficiencies, but it's something that could be improved.
|
|
More worried that swappable feats in general are going to be a throwaway mechanic. Seems likely that a lot of players are just going to have their go-to set of feats that they use every encounter. Yeah its cool in theory to be able to switch from tank/puncher/grappler/whatever, but in practice it doesn't seem like it will come up often unless the DM tailors the adventure with that variety in mind.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
More worried that swappable feats in general are going to be a throwaway mechanic. Seems likely that a lot of players are just going to have their go-to set of feats that they use every encounter. Yeah its cool in theory to be able to switch from tank/puncher/grappler/whatever, but in practice it doesn't seem like it will come up often unless the DM tailors the adventure with that variety in mind.
I think that depends less on the GM and more on the ability. If it only allows a certain number of uses per day (and rarely get used) then it will be a throw away mechanic.
I'd rather it not be as it allows for a rather interesting style of play you don't see enough of in games.
|
So, in playtesting, I am directly comparing a Fighter/Lore Warden 1, Monk/Ki Mystic/Qinggong Monk 14 with a Brawler 15. The Brawler I made...
A follow up to my previous post on 11/23/2013. See my previous post for more info.
I played another session of Shattered Star with the Level 15 Brawler. My previous impressions remain unchanged. If anything they were reinforced by the second play session.
The need to use a move or standard action to use Martial Maneuvers renders the ability largely worthless. Unlike the first session, I made a determined effort to use Martial Maneuvers. On the plus side, my use of Marital Maneuvers allowed my character to largely remain unscathed through several combats (where others took significant damage). This was because I never really got into the fight. In most cases, it went like this: Open door, encounter baddies, roll initiative. Round 1 - See what we're fighting and activate Martial Maneuvers based on opponent. Other characters tear into opponents. Round 2 - Assuming there are any opponents still standing, and assuming the other characters didn't beat my initiative, I move and get a single attack. Other characters finish off opponents. Round 3 - The other characters get healed while I dance around crowing about how I wasn't even hit. We got a lot of chuckles from the dancing around bit, but it was otherwise pretty lame. There was one combat where I didn't bother with Marital Maneuvers and just moved directly into combat... which was more satisfying as I actually accomplished something.
I'm sure there are some who will agree that the Martial Maneuvers action economy doesn't work and that there are some who think its fine. You can ascribe my experience to my group's or my GM's play-style, but we're playing an AP, and I really don't know how I'm supposed to anticipate what opponent is going to be behind each door; and I can tell you the opponents are varied in Shattered Star - it's not like you're playing the Orcs-Galore scenario where you pretty much know you're going to face some flavor of weapon-armed humanoid every encounter. I can only say that intellectually/theoretically, I don't think it works, AND from actual play at 15th level, I also don't think it works.
I still see a great deal of potential from Marital Maneuvers. I see it being something where a Brawler switches from one maneuver to another in the same combat, even round to round. It would be both cool and useful, and give the class flavor.
I doubt I can cause a change in the mechanics, but here's my suggestion (for what its worth):
Change Uses per day to 1/level
Change use of the ability to a swift action in all cases. If desired, keep an Immediate Action alternative for high level characters (but that's just a swift action out of sequence) - I wouldn't bother limiting the Immediate Action alternative to a single feat.
1 Feat at Level 1, 2 Feats at level 6, 3 Feats at level 10
Change base duration per use to 5 rounds, and that you can increase the duration by 5 rounds for each feat less than your maximum that you use. For example, if you are eligible for 2 feats, but only use 1 feat, then your duration is 10 rounds, not 5.
If you do not alter the feats, you can continue the existing use by expending 1 daily use as a free action; the extension uses the same duration.
Generally, keep the rules (as revised) for which feats can be selected, daily use limitations, prerequisites, etc.
I'm a little worried about making Brawler the dip class of choice. Maybe some sort of limitation on using Martial Maneuvers only with unarmed strikes and Brawler class weapons (not sure how this would work). I'm sure the designers can put some thought into this.
Would these mechanics be more powerful than the current incarnation of Martial Maneuvers -- most certainly. Would this make the class over-powered -- most certainly not. It would make the Brawler fun and cool to play. It would make the class relevant power-wise. Right now, I don't see any reason I would play a Brawler as it's too weak. The only reason I'm playing one now is to play-test the class in an actual AP. Once this AP ends (one or two sessions to go I think), then I'm done with the Brawler. Whether I ever play one again will depend on the final form the class takes.
I'll post again in about two weeks after we play our next session of Shattered Star.
@Captain Zoom:
I think there's a tremendous difference in playstyle and encounter setup on your table as compared to many other tables. I play in stand-alone campaigns, APs, modules, and the occasional PFS scenario - and since these are with different people and different GMs (and sometimes me as GM), the encounters vary wildly.
While in some cases the encounters are certainly short-lived slug fests, the majority of encounters I see are more than 3 rounds. In fact, the 1 minute duration of the Martial Maneuvers are actually a problem for me in certain sessions where the encounter(s) itself can stagger into multiple fights (never leaving initiative and rounds); or simply require more than a minute to resolve.
That does not account for intelligent enemies that use the party's strengths against it. An extensive encounter featuring ninjas (Jade Regent adventure path) had the ninjas draw aggression, then hide when the party barbarian engages rage. Wait, wait, wait. Then hit-n-run again.
I *do* agree that Martial Maneuver's number of uses and duration should improve. But I'm perfectly happy with the activation cost.
Now I admit I haven't tested martial maneuvers at high level, but my high level play would tend to agree with Captain Zoom in that things are over in a hurry in any given combat. I ran Tomb of the Iron Medusa for PFS and none of the combats lasted more than 2, maybe 3 rounds at the outside. By high level Martial Maneuvers better get into play quickly, or it will merely be an afterthought.
Consider that instead of activating it quickly, the problem can also be resolved by having the duration increased by a lot. If it lasts for 1 hour, then it generally will be relevant for more than 1 combat
Yes, but then it would be harder to use it as an adaptive ability based on what enemies you immediately face. Of course that might be more power than they particularly want to give out.