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Rynjin reposted the line in the bloodrage description like 3 posts up.I know that they qualify for extra rage, but extra rage gives more rounds of rage, not bloodrage. The difference is bloodrage is an SU ability with a different name and a few other changes due to bloodline. It wouldn't give extra rounds of bloodrage RACW(rules as currently written).
If it doesn't work then the there is no point for that line in the first place. You qualify for all rage feats but if you get those feats they won't work at all?
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Many of their kin use this power primarily for
spellcasting, but bloodragers enter an altered state where
their bloodline becomes manifest—rage becomes reality,
where the potency of strange ancestral unions and deeds
lashes out with supernatural furry with devastating
ends. And while in these states, they can as near-instinct
cast some arcane spells. Fast, violent, and seemingly
unstoppable, the bloodragers’ magic is murder.
I'm sorry the direct quote about what this guy is does not say, "Self buffing melee attacker" -- it says "murder machine in the physical and magical sense".
This is not the description that says "I'm going to buff myself up." It says, "quick and easy lightning bolt to the face."
I don't mind him being a melee monster -- but lets face it, the bloodrager's get plenty of that from bloodline and rage. How about we let him have another way to hurt people -- with fast violent and seemingly unstoppable magic.
Look I'm not saying he can't be built to be a self buffing monster.
But he can do that already. Why lock him into one thing when with a simple two things (more spells and a class ability to build some damage and DC into his magic) we can let him do that, and let others have an option to be more magically inclined too.
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I just noticed, and it may have already been said, several bloodline powers say "Starting at 1st Level" but of course you don't get them until 3rd level...
I'd suggest removing fast movement and uncanny dodge at 1st and 2nd as a base and adding bloodlines from first level.
Also, all of the bloodlines are jacked up as to when you get what.
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I just noticed, and it may have already been said, several bloodline powers say "Starting at 1st Level" but of course you don't get them until 3rd level...
I'd suggest removing fast movement and uncanny dodge at 1st and 2nd as a base and adding bloodlines from first level.
Also, all of the bloodlines are jacked up as to when you get what.
Um no you get them at 1st level, you get the next power when the bloodline says so, the table is wrong. It was posted by Jason a few posts back.
The bloodrager's magic is murder. Yes. The bloodrager can cast spells. He can cast the deadly lightning bolt if he wants (I think that's on the magus list). But his magic is better utilized in buffing himself up to murder things with his giant greatsword/greataxe/other big 2-hander.
I really, really think saying "The bloodrager uses the first four levels of the magus spell list" was a VERY bad choice. Maybe then, people wouldn't be comparing the bloodrager to the magus. If you want mechanics like the magus, just play a magus.
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I'm saying that for him in a rage casting a lightning bolt shouldn't be a bad choice.
Self buffing is too common -- lets have a big bad murder machine that uses magic instead of simply swinging in melee like everyone else.
Not that he can't do that too, but lets have something a little more than just another self-buffing martial machine.
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The bloodrager's magic is murder. Yes. The bloodrager can cast spells. He can cast the deadly lightning bolt if he wants (I think that's on the magus list). But his magic is better utilized in buffing himself up to murder things with his giant greatsword/greataxe/other big 2-hander.
I really, really think saying "The bloodrager uses the first four levels of the magus spell list" was a VERY bad choice. Maybe then, people wouldn't be comparing the bloodrager to the magus. If you want mechanics like the magus, just play a magus.
The Bloodrager get's the magus spell list because it's easier then writing a new list out. The class is made to be the same as a Ranger or Paladin. The Ranger and the Paladin don’t use the Druid or Cleric spell list. They both have their own spells.
I think the Magus Spell list is fine. What I would like to see is the ability to cast a spell as part of a charge action. Maybe have to make a concentration check or lose the spell. Least then you could use the Magus’s more offensive spells without being a copy of the Magus.
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The bloodrager's magic is murder. Yes. The bloodrager can cast spells. He can cast the deadly lightning bolt if he wants (I think that's on the magus list). But his magic is better utilized in buffing himself up to murder things with his giant greatsword/greataxe/other big 2-hander.
I really, really think saying "The bloodrager uses the first four levels of the magus spell list" was a VERY bad choice. Maybe then, people wouldn't be comparing the bloodrager to the magus. If you want mechanics like the magus, just play a magus.
The Bloodrager get's the magus spell list because it's easier then writing a new list out. The class is made to be the same as a Ranger or Paladin. The Ranger and the Paladin don’t use the Druid or Cleric spell list. They both have their own spells.
I think the Magus Spell list is fine. What I would like to see is the ability to cast a spell as part of a charge action. Maybe have to make a concentration check or lose the spell. Least then you could use the Magus’s more offensive spells without being a copy of the Magus.
+1
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks a spell cast as part of a charge action was a great idea.
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There seems to be a big problem with people's mental approach to a lot of these classes where they see "hybrid of X and Y" and immediately assume the class is going to represent a 50/50 split of abilities between the two. When really, the case with the vast majority is that you have a major variation on X which borrows from the thematic and/or design themes of Y.
In this case, the bloodrager is a variant barbarian, mainly borrowing the thematic angle of bloodlines from the sorcerer. As an added bonus, it gets access to some very limited spellcasting, which almost makes it too good, if anything.
If you want to make a character whose primary focus is on casting, there are plenty of primary casters. If you want to do the spellstrike thing, just play a magus. If you really really want to be busting heads and still casting spells like crazy at the same time, there's the summoner.
This class is for people who want a more flavorful barbarian, with some spells as a cherry on top, and it also nicely covers people who want a less science-y way to do the whole Incredible Hulk thing than alchemists offer... and weirdly appropriate to some sort of Magical Girl premise.
That's all pretty great, and not really supported by any pre-existing class, so let it be its own thing.
Also, it's probably worth a reminder- The idea behind this playtest is to try all these out as written, and give feedback. Not to pitch alternate takes on what to do with them from the ground up (not that I'm not guilty of that elsewhere).
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Except at this point all takes are alternatives. People are really just saying, "hey regardless of what the intent was the 'best' and easiest way to play him is as a self buffing barbarian."
I'm not saying he can't do that -- but I am saying that shouldn't be all he can be.
This is the offensive guy, so while he can already do the self buffing thing how about a small tweak to also allow him to be an offensive caster too if the player wants him to be.
I would agree that this class is almost there. I would just like to see a little more to the arcane side.
Nothing to take away what he already is, just some to offer options.
The bloodrager's magic is murder. Yes. The bloodrager can cast spells. He can cast the deadly lightning bolt if he wants (I think that's on the magus list). But his magic is better utilized in buffing himself up to murder things with his giant greatsword/greataxe/other big 2-hander.
I really, really think saying "The bloodrager uses the first four levels of the magus spell list" was a VERY bad choice. Maybe then, people wouldn't be comparing the bloodrager to the magus. If you want mechanics like the magus, just play a magus.
The Bloodrager get's the magus spell list because it's easier then writing a new list out. The class is made to be the same as a Ranger or Paladin. The Ranger and the Paladin don’t use the Druid or Cleric spell list. They both have their own spells.
I think the Magus Spell list is fine. What I would like to see is the ability to cast a spell as part of a charge action. Maybe have to make a concentration check or lose the spell. Least then you could use the Magus’s more offensive spells without being a copy of the Magus.
I know this, and have said the same thing many times (minus the casting a spell as part of a charge, which I don't think would be bad at all, though gives me a slight image of Naruto's Rasengan and Sasuke's/Kakashi's Chidori, which isn't bad). But people seem to want to turn the bloodrager into the magus, which is not what the class is about. I know the reason why they chose the magus spell list, and think it to be a decent choice in place of creating its own list. But people latch onto the magus spell list thing and try to push the bloodrager into being another magus.
This class is the arcane variant of the paladin and ranger. A full BAB martial class with a smattering of spells, most of which are probably situational. And that's what this class SHOULD be about.
Yeah, gotta disagree with you Googleshng.
The only thing we have to actually direct us towards what the "flavor" of these classes are is their very own description, and as Abraham spalding has pointed out, the description of a Bloodrager makes him out to be a highly-offensive caster who can back up his spells with solid combat. Not the other way around.
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Because I edited before:
Here is the full extent of what I would like to see.
2~3 more spell slots per level maximum. No more spell levels -- this guy isn't generally sophisticated, but he does have a good reserve.
A means of increasing spell damage and DC of offensive magic, particularly when raging. Look people have already agreed that uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge and DR aren't the right path for this guy so replace those with the rampaging spell option I offered earlier. Even if they go charisma lite self buffer a few more points of the occasional magic missile or scorching ray won't hurt.
Perhaps a better return to the original bloodlines. But hey with those other two I can give this one up.
Either an option for choosing strength or charisma as the stat boosted by his rage or increasing strength and charisma instead of strength and constitution with his rage. The second would help focus his offensive skills (increases spell DC) where as the first gives you the option of what you want to do with him.
++++++
The only bit of this that hurts the self buffing martial beat stick of this list is the rampaging spell suggestion, and it's a fairly minor buff to spell casting in place of something a lot of people don't think he really needs anyways. None of it reduces his offense at all.
Many of their kin use this power primarily for
spellcasting, but bloodragers enter an altered state where
their bloodline becomes manifest—rage becomes reality,
where the potency of strange ancestral unions and deeds
lashes out with supernatural furry with devastating
ends. And while in these states, they can as near-instinct
cast some arcane spells. Fast, violent, and seemingly
unstoppable, the bloodragers’ magic is murder.
In the description quoted by Abraham spalding, most of it reads exactly like "barbarian with a smattering of spells". The bolded part that I supplied.
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Because I edited before:
Here is the full extent of what I would like to see.
2~3 more spell slots per level maximum. No more spell levels -- this guy isn't generally sophisticated, but he does have a good reserve.
A means of increasing spell damage and DC of offensive magic, particularly when raging. Look people have already agreed that uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge and DR aren't the right path for this guy so replace those with the rampaging spell option I offered earlier. Even if they go charisma lite self buffer a few more points of the occasional magic missile or scorching ray won't hurt.
Perhaps a better return to the original bloodlines. But hey with those other two I can give this one up.
Heard one guy mention using rage rounds to effect spell casting, so maybe that could be your catalyst for higher DC's or damage thresholds.
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Yeah, gotta disagree with you Googleshng.
The only thing we have to actually direct us towards what the "flavor" of these classes are is their very own description, and as Abraham spalding has pointed out, the description of a Bloodrager makes him out to be a highly-offensive caster who can back up his spells with solid combat. Not the other way around.
I'm going to have to disagree with you, reading the description comes off as an augmented being (i.e. the Bloodlines), and the "can as near-instinct cast some arcane spells" referring to the Spontaneous Casting of the class as opposed to the casting of a Wizard or Cleric.
And the "Magic is Murder" comment is a euphemism, the same as saying to the Assassin, Murder is Art. (that or some effed up PETA thing involving MLP..... leave the ponies alone PETA....)
Edit: Ninjaed by Adjule
But really -- he does have a smattering of spells.
1. He doesn't get them until 4th level.
2. He only gets four spell levels.
3. He has very limited spells known.
So letting him have around 20~24 castings a day at level 20 really isn't that huge. The sorcerer has a minimum of 54.
"Magic is Murder" can be a euphemism, it does not have to be.
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I'm just arguing for opening up the playing field. He can already be a buffing murdering hobo -- I'm just game for him to have the option of being a face eating mother-of-all-fireballs-casting murdering hobo too.
It's not like my adjustments shut down the first option.
Oops -- side issue:
What's with not being able to cast while using a shield? The bard can do it and he's a bard not a front liner.
I would suggest either ditching the shield proficiency or letting him cast with a shield like his 'analogs' (the paladin and ranger) and the bard can.
I would like to see a little stronger tie in on the charisma... but I don't really see how to without overstuffing the class with features that will start to look like 'stuff for the sake of stuff'.
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I'm just arguing for opening up the playing field. He can already be a buffing murdering hobo -- I'm just game for him to have the option of being a face eating mother-of-all-fireballs-casting murdering hobo too.
It's not like my adjustments shut down the first option.
True, and I'm perfectly fine if people want more blasting with their smashing, but when I play this, or a ranger or a pa... anyway the point is I like the class as a self buffer with some pure magical damaging options (definitely liking Fireball for opening a fight or trying to get someone who's fleeing). And it's also something I've been wanting for awhile, there's a lot of casters that can melee, but I'm really excited about this class for it being a straight out Melee class with magical reinforcement.
Yeah at first I was going to be all, "Wah? 6 spell levels please!"
Then I realized that what I really wanted was the ability to brutalize people with unsophisticated damage spells that really hurt which this guy can do with just 4 spell levels and a minor class ability or two.
And people were right, we could use a 20 and 4 arcane guy and this could fit everyone nicely with a few small tweaks.
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Yeah at first I was going to be all, "Wah? 6 spell levels please!"
Then I realized that what I really wanted was the ability to brutalize people with unsophisticated damage spells that really hurt which this guy can do with just 4 spell levels and a minor class ability or two.
And people were right, we could use a 20 and 4 arcane guy and this could fit everyone nicely with a few small tweaks.
Yep :3
As it stands I'm very happy with the class right now, but then you get into Archetypes for all your tweaking needs.
Another actual 'thing'
From the looks of it the blood rager has full caster levels -- is the on purpose or is he supposed to be -3 like the paladin and ranger?
I don't mind full caster levels but want to make sure that is the intention.
To put a little stronger tie in on the Charisma score, with bloodrage being a Supernatural ability, why not base the number of bloodrage rounds off of Charisma instead? And also make all his other abilities run off of Charisma, but still giving Constitution bonus while bloodraging?
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Another actual 'thing'
From the looks of it the blood rager has full caster levels -- is the on purpose or is he supposed to be -3 like the paladin and ranger?
I don't mind full caster levels but want to make sure that is the intention.
Yes I do believe the caster level is -3, cause at 4th is also when you get Eschew Materials.
Because I edited before:
Here is the full extent of what I would like to see.
2~3 more spell slots per level maximum. No more spell levels -- this guy isn't generally sophisticated, but he does have a good reserve.
A means of increasing spell damage and DC of offensive magic, particularly when raging. Look people have already agreed that uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge and DR aren't the right path for this guy so replace those with the rampaging spell option I offered earlier. Even if they go charisma lite self buffer a few more points of the occasional magic missile or scorching ray won't hurt.
Perhaps a better return to the original bloodlines. But hey with those other two I can give this one up.
Either an option for choosing strength or charisma as the stat boosted by his rage or increasing strength and charisma instead of strength and constitution with his rage. The second would help focus his offensive skills (increases spell DC) where as the first gives you the option of what you want to do with him.
++++++
The only bit of this that hurts the self buffing martial beat stick of this list is the rampaging spell suggestion, and it's a fairly minor buff to spell casting in place of something a lot of people don't think he really needs anyways. None of it reduces his offense at all.
*puts on designer hat*
I think to keep this feasible as an idea he'll need more than that.
For example with what few spell slots he has he should also get a reliable recovery mechanic. Expending rounds of rage to regain spells seems simple enough particularly if you base rage on charisma rather than con.
Free metamagic while raging might also need to be a thing. We only have 4 levels of spells to work with.
Well I think for potential the following would work:
At 5th level the bloodrager adds his class level to the damage of any spell he casts. While raging this bonus damage is doubled. At level 7 the DC of bloodrager spell he casts is increased by 1 while raging. This increases by 1 every three levels after 7 to a maximum of +5 to spell DC at level 19.
This would give him a 'base DC' range of 16 through 19. So you aren't going to have a 'great' DC unless you invest, but if you do choose to go that route you will be able to hope the spell will stick, and if it does stick it's going to hurt a bit more than the enemy probably expects a fireball to do so.
But a rage for spells ability wouldn't be bad as well.
My favorite class so far even if it is MAD. :D
I hope they keep it as it is, but helps it with DC of spells.
And some bloodlines need a Little more love.
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You know what would be really really really cool?
Some ability to amplify/increase area of AE damage spells that have him as the center. Like how sick would it be to see a blood rager have fire blast out from his body, or say he cast black tentacles, they all burst out from him..... leaving open wounds behind.
I really don't want this to be class that focus on being a caster anymore than the Paladin or Ranger.
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I dunno, I'm kinda with them. The Paladin and Ranger's spell lists are almost exclusively buff spells. Not taking advantage of the opportunity to have a battle caster with such an offensive list seems a shame.
Not saying it should be the main focus of the class, far from it. But having some ability to put that Rage flavor on some spells would be great, whether it be casting something as Swift/Immediate action when you Rage, the "Charge Blast" idea, "Raging Metamagic" using Rage rounds to fuel them, or something along those lines.
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I really don't want this to be class that focus on being a caster anymore than the Paladin or Ranger.
But paladins really have a strong option for their spellcasting.
First charisma builds into their other magical abilities -- lay on hands (channel energy by extension) and their save throw increasing ability as well as offensive ability in smite.
Plus their spells are typically unoffensive by default.
Face it -- the paladin is the Jedi Knight to the Bloodrager's Sith warrior.
The paladin can choose to go high charisma and will be well rewarded for doing so even if it isn't 100% optimal. He has plenty of uses for that charisma and he'll still be an even contributor as a healer/tankish character, with solid self and party healing, some decent back up spells and hardly (if limited) attack options.
Rangers are odd ball across the board -- they have prerequisite free feats and their spells are also divine and utility in nature. They aren't one off druids they are rangers.
This guy isn't either of those things -- he's a magic based battler. It says so in his description. His spell list is primarily offensive.
And again -- we aren't asking for anything from how you can play him to be taken away -- we are asking for the option to be able to focus on the magic side too, if the player wants to invest in it.
You don't want to focus charisma? Find you have a few more buffs per day, and your back up magic missile hurts a bit more than 'normal'.
But if you do want to focus on the magical element at a bit of expense of your martial ability you now don't feel like a chump for taking the damage dealing spells, as they can actually be an effective choice.
And just because it is now a decent option if you want to use it, you aren't really losing anything if you do not want to use it.
then make him a barb/magus and focus more on melee. as it stands, he's a barb/SORCERER hybrid, and should have at least some representation from both sides. currently it just seems the spellcasting is just sorta tacked on for novelty, since he's fluffed as this raging magic slinging engine of destruction, and while he can swing, he cant really 'sling, since anything other than a buff is wasted due to terrible DCs from his spell level limits.
if you wanna play a buffing martial hero, play a paladin or ranger--they have the swifts and tools necessary to do it without impacting them too horribly. the bloodrager doesnt, so if he's casting, it's taking his standard (or longer) to do so--it NEEDS to matter what he's doing. completely disregarding the fluff on the crunch side is just wasteful, and defeats the purpose of hyping it up as someone actually competent with damaging spells.
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then make him a barb/magus and focus more on melee. as it stands, he's a barb/SORCERER hybrid, and should have at least some representation from both sides. currently it just seems the spellcasting is just sorta tacked on for novelty, since he's fluffed as this raging magic slinging engine of destruction, and while he can swing, he cant really 'sling, since anything other than a buff is wasted due to terrible DCs from his spell level limits.
if you wanna play a buffing martial hero, play a paladin or ranger--they have the swifts and tools necessary to do it without impacting them too horribly. the bloodrager doesnt, so if he's casting, it's taking his standard (or longer) to do so--it NEEDS to matter what he's doing. completely disregarding the fluff on the crunch side is just wasteful, and defeats the purpose of hyping it up as someone actually competent with damaging spells.
Paladin has an alignment restriction and Ranger is more nature and utility then outright buff when it comes to spells.
This guy can run on rage, spite, hate, and misery and all that good stuff :3, maybe give them access to the Antipaladin spell list for more damage?
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Ah heck -- go ahead and play a buffing blood rager too -- the class can currently handle it, and it wouldn't take that much to let it handle the force choking, force lightning lightsaber rampager of death that the universe fears too.
That's my big thing, with a few simple changes on minor abilities this beautiful class can handle what everyone wants.
I'm willing to say in my opinion this class has the potential to be one of the best classes Paizo has ever designed.
LOTS of flavor and multiple ways to play it and lots of choices for how you get there.
Inspiration goes from Natsu of fairy tail, to Anakin Skywalker, to Gohan, and further.
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then make him a barb/magus and focus more on melee. as it stands, he's a barb/SORCERER hybrid, and should have at least some representation from both sides. currently it just seems the spellcasting is just sorta tacked on for novelty, since he's fluffed as this raging magic slinging engine of destruction, and while he can swing, he cant really 'sling, since anything other than a buff is wasted due to terrible DCs from his spell level limits.
if you wanna play a buffing martial hero, play a paladin or ranger--they have the swifts and tools necessary to do it without impacting them too horribly. the bloodrager doesnt, so if he's casting, it's taking his standard (or longer) to do so--it NEEDS to matter what he's doing. completely disregarding the fluff on the crunch side is just wasteful, and defeats the purpose of hyping it up as someone actually competent with damaging spells.
Paladin has an alignment restriction and Ranger is more nature and utility then outright buff when it comes to spells.
This guy can run on rage, spite, hate, and misery and all that good stuff :3, maybe give them access to the Antipaladin spell list for more damage?
But above all, Bloodlines. That is what makes this class awesome. Bloodlines is what makes the Sorcerer awesome to me, not the spells. Bloodlines is what makes the Bloodrager appeal to me over the Paladin and Ranger.
Edit: Aaaaaannnnddd I got carried away and replied to my own post instead of editing it. Awkward...
Honestly if I had spell like abilities that laid down the hurt I think I could go with that -- but that seems to me to be too much extra work on the class. A simple tweak on the spells per day and something to bolster magic while raging seems much more time/space/mind consuming than a bunch of spell-like abilities, and allows for more options in playstyles than the spell-likes would do.
I don't think anti-paladin would do that as his list is much more debuffing focused.
Honestly I think the thematic opposite of the paladin list is one with offensive magics (and some buffs cause hey, more playstyles that way).
Jedi Knights deflect, dodge and try to encircle -- Sith Warriors pound through with brutally effective simple solutions (to continue my analogy).
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Ah heck -- go ahead and play a buffing blood rager too -- the class can currently handle it, and it wouldn't take that much to let it handle the force choking, force lightning lightsaber rampager of death that the universe fears too.
That's my big thing, with a few simple changes on minor abilities this beautiful class can handle what everyone wants.
I'm willing to say in my opinion this class has the potential to be one of the best classes Paizo has ever designed.
LOTS of flavor and multiple ways to play it and lots of choices for how you get there.
Inspiration goes from Natsu of fairy tail, to Anakin Skywalker, to Gohan, and further.
Yeah at this point I think I'm gonna call for a unique spell list, Don't get me wrong, I love the magus spell list, but considering the Antipaladin, Paladin, and Ranger spell lists I think Bloodrager should get its own, made of Damage and Buffing and Combat enhancers that I don't think are quite considered buffs? (i.e. Bladed Dash)
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Ah heck -- go ahead and play a buffing blood rager too -- the class can currently handle it, and it wouldn't take that much to let it handle the force choking, force lightning lightsaber rampager of death that the universe fears too.
That's my big thing, with a few simple changes on minor abilities this beautiful class can handle what everyone wants.
I'm willing to say in my opinion this class has the potential to be one of the best classes Paizo has ever designed.
LOTS of flavor and multiple ways to play it and lots of choices for how you get there.
Inspiration goes from Natsu of fairy tail, to Anakin Skywalker, to Gohan, and further.
dont forget cu chulainn, kamina, yusuke yurameshi, kurapika (hunter x hunter), sasuke uchiha (while itachi might be a better slayer/shadowdancer), naruto uzumaki, one of several ichigo builds, monkey d luffy (abberant for extendo reach, fly or haste in bloodrage for gear 2nd, and so on) etc. etc.
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I hate these bloooood liiiiiines....
<song bomb>
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A clause that makes their bloodlines act as/parallel their sorc counterparts would be good
like: The blood ragers bloodline can never be retrained altered. If he later takes levels in a class that grants a bloodline he instead progresses his bloodline in bloodrager and must select the matching bloodline. Likewise any feats/equipment/classes that refer to sorc bloodline also refers to the matching blood rager bloodline
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Duuuude...I need to make an Aberrant Luffy now...
Alrighty so if we drop the DR, and the improved uncanny dodge what abilities can we cram in there?
Alrighty first up at 5th level we can add in the Blood Fuel ability. I.e. spend a round of rage and regain a spell.
At 7th you have Burning Rage which adds your charisma modifier to damage spells while raging.
At 10th we can expend rounds of rage to add metamagic feats we know for free (I think a 2 to 1 ratio of rounds to levels is fair enough).
Three more levels of DR left to scrub. What else can we shove in?