I feel that paizo were too afraid of the Arcanist spellcasting mechanic and chose to skimp on its depth of class features from this. It feels very bland and blood focus really needs to be more clearly defined as others have said.
To the people afraid of its spellcasting:
1. A sorcerer's spells known aren't really a problem. You can select plenty of spells as a sorcerer to make a functional character in every situation, and in general you're going to be BETTER at your selected spells as you can base your feats and bloodline choice around them. Blood Arcana are very potent, and sorcerer bloodlines I think are more powerful than people give them credit for.
The Arcanist has desperately lacking class features, 9 fewer spells on any given day, for the benefit of being able to hyper specialize? I guess?
2. It's really not appropriate to compare a wizard to an arcanist in terms of versatility. Something important to remember is a wizard's versatility scales with its casting attribute. You get more bonus spells, your get drastically increased options. Need to get through that door? The wizard can take 5 minutes to use ONE out of his 5+ options to cast knock, while an Arcanist is stuck with that same knock from his fewer options all day. Spont. casting does not favor being a swiss army knife, at least in the way the wizards functions as one.
That all being said though, the mechanic IS novel and might be fun in play. It also seems like it's very welcoming for players who might find static preparation or static choices of spells known intimidating! Which is a useful niche to fill.
ok I wanna to just say, I want to go back to the drawing board on the class flavor of this one. I think this class should be about looking at the nature of arcane magic, if the wizard knows the how, this class sees the why. Obviously i'm biased because I want a true wisdom based arcane caster. I also want different class abilities that have have an "arcane secret" flavoring. maybe something based on the old reserve spell feat mechanic from 3.5.
just wanting to expand on this a bit more. As part of making them wisdom caster you could remove the spellbook mechanic and force them to acquire spells known as a sorcerer. This scaling of the power level back allows for more freedom in creating real class abilities.
so it'd have spells known and spells-per-day like a sorcerer, have bloodlines like a sorcerer, and on the wizard side it gets... scribe scroll. yeah, its just a (weaker, from the loss of bloodline spells) sorcerer at that point, not a hybrid.
First off, all of these new classes are likely going to get FCBs too.
This is true, but it is highly unlikely that the arcanist will receive a bonus equal to the sorcerer's. My suspicion is that they are far more likely to mimic the wizard or witch bonus (extra spell to spellbook or familiar) than the sorcerer. Until I see any evidence to the contrary I'm unlikely to find this argument persuasive. You are essentially arguing a hypothetical (potential arcanist bonus) against a certainty (the sorcerer's existing bonus).
If the arcanist does get such a favorite class bonus I'd be more sympathetic to the OP argument. As it stands, no.
Second, did you not realize that the Arcanist's "spells prepared" and the Sorc's "spells known" are exactly the same? The only time they aren't is when you start adding in peripherals like a favored class bonus specific to a particular race, and nothing indicates that the new classes will be left out of those too.
The sorcerer's spells known will always exceed the arcanist's spells known. The sorcerer will always have, at minimum, one additional spell of each level as a result of bloodline spells. Until 20th level this means a minimum of 5 vs. 3 for the two highest level spells available.
The arcane bloodline can also increase the number of spells known (as can the eldritch heritage feats towards the same end or the extra spell knowledge feats).
With the human sorcerer favorite class option the sorcerer will pack tremendously more spells at any given time (as Andreww points out). That's the balancing factor between the sorcerer and the arcanist.
You need to check your math; Sorcerer 10 = 9/5/4/3/2/1 = 24 spells known Arcanist 10 = 9/5/4/3/2/1 = 24 spells prepared. Again, exactly the same - except if the Arcanist makes a junk choice he can drop it after one night of rest, instead of having to use the retraining rules or wait until 12. So why would anyone pick a sorcerer?
Perhaps you should reread his post? His math is spot on.
A human sorcerer with the arcane bloodline using the human favorite class bonus has spells known at 10th level of:
12/8/7/6/4/3
An arcanist has spells prepared of:
9/5/4/3/2/1
For the sake of completeness a specialist wizard with a 23 intelligence (15, +2 racial, +2 level, +4 item) has the following spells prepared:
4/7/7/5/5/4
Ignoring bloodline spells, bloodline powers, and favorite class bonuses might be convenient for the purposes of supporting the "arcanist blows sorcererer out of the water" argument, but I don't think it is going to convince any designers (or anyone that sits down and builds characters for themselves).
I repeat my earlier advice to people on both sides of the issue. Go out and playtest. Report back findings. Failing that, at least build out full characters. Use the same level of optimization for each. Build them towards the same purpose. See how they match up. Having done so myself now my feeling is that the arcanist will hardly replace anyone as the only or most viable caster.
The sorcerer lends itself well to specialization via bloodline powers and some favorite class options (Kitsune especially). It also lends itself well towards having an extremely broad selection of spells available if that is what you want. I think it is quite easy to build a sorcerer who will be able to cover just about any base you need, even before you use things like the false priest archtype or the mnemonic vestment. The sheer number of spells available at one time means they never risk getting caught with their pants down, even if they don't have the perfect spells available for every circumstance. The fact that they aren't spending relatively large amounts of coin on a spellbook also opens them up to fill out their spells known with consumables if needed.
The wizard lends itself well to being able to respond well to specialized problems without getting entirely boxed into a single role. If I'm preparing for a day of research for example with some high level divinations I can still pack in plenty of combat spells if the day gets interrupted by the attack of a group of fire giants on the city or by a tidal wave hitting it (borrowed from two APs). They have spells available earlier and can prepare a larger number of different high level spells at once both at even and odd levels. Now and then you may be caught with a few spell slots that are completely useless, but you should rarely run the risk of being caught with a large number of spell slots that are completely useless or only marginally so.
Finally, the arcanist lends itself well towards knowing exactly what it is getting into. It has the potential to apply iself extremely well to circumstances in which it knows what is going on, but runs a large risk of getting caught with its pants down - especially with regard to high level spells. Both the sample 14th and 15th level arcanists I built were rarely caught entirely off guard, because they could always use low level spells with metamagic in high level slots filled with spells that didn't apply (divinations in combat, combat in utility), but they definitely struggled in that role more than the sorcerer or the wizard. Further, I just don't see the ability to cast the same 1 spell four times but to change it with a day as being that much stronger than the ability to cast 4 different spells 1 time, or 2 different spells five times any time.
I think the arcanist can be good, but nothing I've seen on paper suggests it invalidates other classes except in the extremely hypothetical circumstance of never taking a fight they aren't prepared for (and even then it's a questionable invalidation, since the other classes are not bad in those circumstances and can still be better of a large number of different spells are required). Mostly I think it will make life easier for many players who want to change their spells out sometimes but don't like the bother of every day preparation.
You need to check your math; Sorcerer 10 = 9/5/4/3/2/1 = 24 spells known Arcanist 10 = 9/5/4/3/2/1 = 24 spells prepared. Again, exactly the same - except if the Arcanist makes a junk choice he can drop it after one night of rest, instead of having to use...Actually you need to check your own as you still seem to be living in 2008. You can't just ignore the material which the sorcerer and/or wizard can make use of which the arcanist cant when making comparisons between the two.
In fairness, his math is actually wrong even if you are using only the Core Rule Book.
I agree.
Well, they do have access to every spell in the spellbook... all the wizard/sorcerer ones anyway. Learning all spells and inscribing them isn't so expensive that they couldn't afford literally every spell of every level they could cast. Wizards can, so can arcanists then.
I agree with you on every other point wraithstrike, but I don't on this one. I broke down the math on this 'have very spell in their spellbook with a bare minimum of expense' argument a few pages ago. I'll repost it here if you didn't see it.
Laying aside completely whether or not you should be able to find someone to sell you every single spell in the game wherever you happen to be...
There are ~111 1st level wiard / sorcerer spells. It would cost approximately 1,500gp for an arcanist to scribe them into his spellbook (assuming he could get access to all of them). That is 150% of his 1st level WBL, 50% of his 2nd level wealth by level, and 25% of his 3rd level wealth by level.
There are ~147 2nd level wizard / sorcerer spells. It would cost approximately 8,400gp for an arcanist to scribe them into his spellbook (assuming he could get access to them all). That combined with the 1,500gp from before is 9,900gp. 9,900gp is 165% of his 4th level wealth by level. It is 94% of his 5th level wealth by level and 61% of his 6th level wealth by level.
There are ~127 3rd level wizard / sorcerer spells. It would cost a minimum of 11,430gp to scribe all of these spells into the arcanist's spellbook. that combined with the 9,900gp from before is 21,330gp. 21,330gp is 133% of a 6th level arcanists wealth by level. It is 90% of his 7th level wealth by level. It is 64% of his 8th level wealth by level.
And so forth. At some point you're probably going to start swapping to blessed books, but if you are buying every spell you can from level 1 you likely won't have the money to do so until ~10th level, at which point you still still spend 11,750gp to buy access to the ~94 5th level spells from another arcanist or wizard. These 94 spells will fill up approximately half of your blessed book.
This number for bought access continues to go up each level, even if you offset the scribing cost. I would eyeball the cost of all wizard and sorcerer spells in your spellbook at somewhere on the order of 200,000-300,000gp between the costs of purchasing spells from other wizards (which assumes you have another wizard to sell you every spell at cost), paying scribing costs at lower levels, and buying new blessed books at higher levels.
That is hardly not expensive.
Personally I am not a fan of blood focus. Bigger numbers are nice but it's a full caster the class is going to most likely have high DC's already. Fatigue isn't really an issue for casting classes either. I would prefer some cool and flavourful options, what if Arcanists had something similar to bloodlines based on schools of magic. Like necromancers blood, and transmuters blood, and so on with arcana and powers.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Coridan on the Arcanist:
I kind of knew we would be getting a Spirit Shaman (or as SKR told me, an Arcana Unearthed) style caster in the book. That is awesome. I love that casting style and would like it as an option for all prepared casters, not something restricted to a single class.
As to the rest of this class though, there is nothing good. This problem stems mostly from the lack of room between Sorc and Wiz, it is a sandwich with just bread. The blood focus is wonky and awkward, and the remaining levels are filler till you get to a PrC. Like the Sorc though, getting to a PrC is lagged by the spell level delay. The spell level delay though is extra problematic for the Arcanist who gets Scribe Scroll, but will have to scribe all his scrolls at a higher caster level, and thus cost, for minimal gain.
My solution to this class is a total revamp. Either as a Wiz/Rogue Beguioer type, or Wiz/Oracle Occultist. Probably the former since you could keep the name and iconic art you already ordered.
As a wiz/rogue, have it keep the spellcasting, but get rid of the delay, work it off of Int maybe block Evok/Necro/Trans schools, give it Trapfinding and a few more class skills (and maybe 4+INT/level) along with Arcanist talents like: Still/Silent bonus feats, +1/2 level to Cha checks for charmed opponents, reroll bluff, etc. Ditch the blood focus entirely. There is a good class just a few feet off the port bow, but you will have to change course to get to it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There are several things about this class that are awesome and there is some room for improvement as well (but then, isn't there always?).
The Good: The arcanist successfully addresses a niche that has up to this point remained vacant. Fantasy is littered with spellcasters born with magic that needs to be cultivated through education (Harry Potter, Dragon Age, etc.) and in terms of flavor, the arcanist does just that.
The Great!: Preparing spontaneous spells for the day is perhaps the most elegant syncretism presented in the playtest document. It perfectly captures the spirit of both the sorcerer and wizard in its most fundamental and defining class feature.
Where Improvement is Needed: The blood focus ability is, unfortunately, problematic. While I see the logic behind it, that is to reinforce the hybridity of the sorcerer and the wizard, the class-combination was so succinctly and so convincingly executed in the spellcasting system that this ability is unnecessary. Moreover, it detracts from the uniqueness of its parent classes by so directly mimicking their respective identities.
Instead of borrowing so directly from its parent classes, this design space would be better used to celebrate the versatility of the arcanist. Perhaps giving the arcanist the ability to spontaneously cast spells from a small list of their own selection as they level? Movement in this direction would reflect the classes' individuality in a way that sets them apart from their parent classes, while continuing to explore the new spellcasting.
Moving away from direct use of the wizard schools and sorcerer bloodlines (there's always the Eldritch Heritage feats for that), the blood focus ability should be used to carve out the arcanist's unique design space.
In Closing/TL;DR: Flavor, good. Spellcasting, great. Blood focus, strongly consider revising.
I look forward to hearing how other players feel about the class and the developments that the Paizo design team will make in light of our observations and playtest experiences.
If there is a niche needed in combining two spellcasting classes the a sage for wizard/cleric would have been awesome.
I all can say is this does feel that it is missing something but I am not sure what.
Does this class get extra spells known based on bloodline or extra spells it can cast if it chooses a wizard school?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Hey there folks,
I think a lot of the calls of "overpowered" will play out to be untrue in actual play examples, but I will gladly wait to see those come in (thanks thought to the folks who did some build analysis, we did that work weeks ago when building the class, but at least I dont have to repost it).
I am very much in the middle of the road on the Blood Focus class feature to be honest. I am thinking that in the coming days I will endeavor to workshop it with folks here on the boards to come up with something better. Currently it feels too much like a hodge podge to me and I am sure we can do better.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I agree with the sentiments of yourself and others on Blood Focus... I feel that the class would be significantly improved mechanically if bloodline schools were written specifically for it, like the Bloodrager's bloodlines (which I think should be called something slightly different to set them apart from Sorcerer bloodlines, by the way). I'm thinking some more unique abilities that can be used by expending a point of blood focus (which should probably be 3 + Int times per day), with new options at something like 6th, 12th, and 18th levels, and a cool capstone at 20th. Here's an example of the type of thing I'm thinking:
Transmuter Bloodline School:
Your bloodline may have included several powerful mages who focused their study on transmutation spells, or perhaps you had a lycanthropic ancestor, long forgotten by time. Either way, your magic is more powerful when you use it to manipulate objects and creatures around you.
Bonus spells (added to your spell list): shillelagh (2nd), tree shape (4th), XXX (6th), XXX (8th), control winds (10th), ironwood (12th), changestaff (14th), XXX (16th) polar midnight (18th) [I couldn't come up with spells to fill all of these spots in the short time before I head to work, but the idea here is to add transmutation spells that don't appear on the Sorc/Wiz spell list, expanding your options into those that would normally be held for Druids or Clerics, etc.]
Transmuter's Blood: At first level, you can spend one point of blood focus as a swift action to increase the DC of a transmutation spell by 1, or to double the duration of a transmutation spell that affects you. If the spell also affects others, the duration is not increased for them.
Powerful Form (Sp): At 6th level, you can spend one point of blood focus as a standard action to cast enlarge person on yourself or an ally as a spell-like ability. At 12th level, you can instead cast monstrous physique II. At 18th level you can instead cast transformation.
Lightning Speed (Su): At 12th level, you can spend one point of blood focus as a swift action to grant yourself or an ally within 30 feet the effects of haste. At 18th level, you can grant these benefits to yourself and a number of allies equal to your Intelligence modifier.
Manipulator of Flesh (Sp): At 18th level, you can spend two points of blood focus as a standard action to cast polymorph or baleful polymorph on one creature as a spell-like ability. If the spell affects that creature, you may choose to give that creature either a +4 bonus or a -4 penalty on any one ability score for the duration of the spell, in addition to the effects of the spell. If a creature is affected by this ability, it cannot be targeted by this ability again for 24 hours.
Some Awesome Capstone Ability (Su,Sp,Ex): At 20th level, Can't think of one at the moment, but you get the idea.
The cool thing with this is that you could then start publishing focused bloodline schools based on the focused Wizard schools that have already been published, and you could make Thassilonian variants and Elemental School variants, etc. This is an opportunity to give the class something really special and unique, as opposed to rehashing the Sorcerer bloodlines mechanic.
What does everyone think of this?
"look, as a group we are trying to stick to core + APG as much as possible, and the idea you have can very easily be a wizard".
Yeah that's a mindset I can't get behind, my playstyle is more "If it's an official Paizo release or any 3pp stuff on d20pfsrd.com, you automatically have my permission to use it". Combined with my hatred of prepared casters my response would be "Screw it, dropping the concept, give me a bit to go dream up something that fits a sorcerer." If not leaving outright.
I guess I'll be the dissenting voice here. For the love of all things holy, please do not make this a split-stat casting class in the vein of Favored Soul or such like (one stat determines your spells per day, highest level you can cast, etc.; and a different one determines your DCs). I know of no faster way to make the class a non-option for me and my players. There were several classes like this in 3.5 and every player I know made quite a point of not choosing them, or houseruling them into a single stat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The way I see the arcanist class is borne out of comparison to the Wizard and the Sorcerer.
Consider: The wizard studies magic, through the lens of school specializations. Think of it like a college student. You can study communications, psychology, economics, sociology, history or politics. However, at the core of all of these fields you're really trying to understand how humans work, just in different fields.
A sorcerer on the other hand, intuitively understands magic. She can cast spells simply by feeling them out. Think of her like the person at a party who just gets people. She is the natural salesman, or the magnetic politician. They just "get it." Unlike the college guy who studies people through academic fields, she knows the same things intuitively.
The arcanist represents something in-between. The current interpretation I'm seeing from a lot of people is that the arcanist is a "sorcerer who ended up going to school." I think that's cheating the potential of the class.
I prefer to think of the arcanist as a "genius." Schoepenhauer said, "talent hits the target no one else can hit, genius hits the target no one else can see."
Perhaps the arcanist studies magic in a way neither (or any) class has before. They see the next step in understanding how it interacts with the world. This is why they can cast in a semi-spontaneous way. They understand the spell, but more importantly, they understand the way magic works with the universe. They have more refined control over magic than either the sorcerer or the wizard.
If I could influence the class, I would dump the blood pool concept. Instead, I would add a series of abilities surrounding the motif of magical genius. Allow the arcanist more control over the effects of his or her spells. Let them change things like area, range and duration and element type. They already look to be focused on fluidity, embrace it, and separate them thematically from the sorcerer and wizard.
I'll spend some time tday thinking of more specifics on an...
This and Adam Teles' ideas are very good. As it stands, the Arcanist wants to be a middle point between Sorcerer and Wizard. While it succeeds at the spellcasting mechanic (issues I brought up earlier aside), it is, so far, failing a lot at the rest. The mechanics from both parent classes are somewhat incompatible and, IMHO, could be exclusive. PF went through great lengths to differentiate the Sorcerer from the Wizard, greatly succeeding at this because, while the spell list is exactly the same, the features make the classes play very differently from one another. Those features were made to be discrete, and are going to be a pain to simply merge.
I propose taking a step back, ditching the features' purely mechanical merge (at least for now) and embracing a more "conceptual merge". Nildayre's remarks accomplish exactly that. It is a more holistic analysis of the Arcanist itself, as its own character and not merely as a merge from the parent classes. It is by no means simple, but thinking about how a character might live in its world (vs. thinking how a class might play) might give interesting and impacting hints of what it should be able to accomplish with its class features.
IMHO, the Arcanist doesn't _need_ to be a mechanical middle point between the Sorcerer and the Wizard. It can be a conceptual middle point while at the same time forming a mechanical triangle with the other two vertices classes.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So this may have been covered up thread, but TL;DR.
Overall, I believe this class is very strong, but not game cripplingly so. My only considerable concern is that it has the potential to greatly invalidate the sorcerer class. Why:
Int casting > Cha casting
Swapping spells known daily > stuck with spells known (this will become especially painful if the Arcanist winds up with any racial favored class bonuses similiar to the human one for Sorcerer)
+ built in class feature to increase caster level and spell DC of a primary school of magic
= comparable number of bonus feats
= access to bloodline powers when needed (how often have you needed those powers active all day?)
Their capstone power is also awesome, though how that compares to a Sorcerer varies greatly.
|
|
I like the class and the options it gives, but I will echo the general consensus that the blood focus ability reeks mightily of meh.
Personally I would implement a way for the arcanist to alter the spells they have on the fly. Similar to metamagic, but not as strong so it doesn't invalidate metamagic. Maybe make something similar to the magus' arcane pool ability, but instead of adding abilities to weapons it adds features to spells/effects.
I really like the spell casting system of the Arcanist, but I am not really keen on the Blood Focus system. It feels a little overly complicated and weird. I’d like to propose an alternative, if I may be so bold:
Arcane Heritage (Su): At 1st level, the arcanist learns to harness the power of the magic in her blood to push the boundaries of her magic. The arcanist must select one school of magic (which may be Elemental or Focused schools: APG) and one sorcerer bloodline. Once selected, these choices cannot be changed. Whenever the arcanist casts a spell of her chosen school, she can bolster the spell as a free action. This adds 1 to the spell’s caster level and DC. The arcanist can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Inelegance modifier (minimum 1) and cannot expend more than one use on a given casting of a spell.
Arcane Advancement: at 4th level and every four levels thereafter, an arcanist expands her understanding of her arcane power, gaining a bonus feat or new ability in addition to the feats gained from normal advancement. At such an opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, Eschew Materials, Spell Mastery (the arcanist counts as a wizard for the purposes of this feat), or a feat from her bloodline’s list of bonus feats. The arcanist must still meet all prerequisites for the bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
An arcanist may also use an arcane advancement to gain a power from her bloodline or arcane school or to select an arcane discovery (Ultimate Magic). The arcanist is treated as having a sorcerer and wizard level equal to her arcanist level -3 to determine what abilities she can select. Otherwise, the arcanist has an effective sorcerer and wizard level equal to her arcanist level when determining the strength of these abilities and substitutes her intelligence in place of her Charisma when determining any variables for bloodline powers gained.
These two entries would replace the Blood Focus, Scribe Scroll and Bonus Feats entries. It doesn’t provide as much of a new mechanic as Blood Focus, but I think it’s better that way. Just use established abilities without worrying about a new point system to keep track of. School Supremacy would need its wording changed a little, to something like “Whenever she uses her arcane heritage to bolster a spell of her selected school,” but I’m not a real big fan of that ability either.
I was going back and forth a bit with how many “advancements” the arcanist should get. This is on the lower end with five total. Sorry if anyone else has suggested something similar. I just think this gives the class more customization and hopefully keeps from invalidating the sorcerer or wizard any more than the class may already do.
|
|
I think this class, overall, is great. I love its casting method. But i have some concerns/suggestions:
Spell Slots: Make it the same as the wizard, with one level of delay. The way it is now, the Arcanist is more flexible that a wizard or a sorcerer, and can, overall, cast more spells that a wizard.
Flavor and Blood Focus: I think that blood focus, and, as a result, the class, fails to deliver all the flavor of the concept. Sure, its a hybrid class, but it needs its own identity. Change it to something more unique to the class!
I'd like to see also more flavor in the way it prepare its spells, (something like the alchemist, that attunes its extracts to its body and aura) or the way it casts it, perhaps channeling it trough some sort of focus, like, say, harry potter and his wand.
Sorry for my English, and thank you for these new classes, they are awesome and I'm sure you guys will make them even better =)
I'm just throwing ideas into the pot at this point, because I hope we can come up with some truely good mechanics.
I read what Larkas and Adam Teles were writing about alternate abilities. I like Teles mechanic for descriptor specialty replacing schools, but for the sake of argument I want to say it's still not different enough from what we already have.
Some ideas:
Bring in a spell customization mechanic, like Monte Cook's Magister, or like the Truenamer from 3.5.
Use Larkas' "Arcane Form" idea, granting the mage his own "evolutions."
He also proposed restricting available spell schools, which strikes me as very cool. I'd add in something like alternate powers, using spell slots as fuel. Sort of like th Metamorphosis transformation for the Warlock in WoWHail back to 3.0 and give the arcanist something like psychic combat, with oiffensive and defensive modes.
Remember Spellfire from the Forgotten Realms setting? Perhaps something like that, a raw application of magic to heal, fly and harm (and perhaps some new stuff) combined with being a living rod of absorption. This is my personal favorite. Maybe some of the arcanist's spell slots are "locked" from being restored each day, unless they absorb spells to fill them. Maybe they have a special spell list that can only go into that "locked" slot? Improved counterspelling and spell absorbtion would be a core mechanic of this class, and perhaps at later levels they can "catch" spells cast at them, keep them in the "locked" slots until cast, but never able to fully learn them.
Well, it was my arcane form idea xD
But yeah. Not to pat myself too hard on the back, but the arcane form stuff expanded to having some at-will blasts and such partially solves the level-1 caster problem (which the arcanist does not handle well compared every other full caster class) and allows for some extra flavor.
Earlier, Adam brought up that there may be too much overlap between the "arcane form" idea and the Bloodrager's blood rage abilities, but now that I have slept on that idea, I think I like that comparison now. The Bloodrager does not have full access to his magical power but rages to bring it out whereas the Arcanist tries to draw it out with his wizardly arcane knowledge.
I do worry that having the arcane form as well as this list of abilities may end up being too good, but that can all be in the execution.
[
I agree with the sentiments of yourself and others on Blood Focus... I feel that the class would be significantly improved mechanically if bloodline schools were written specifically for it, like the Bloodrager's bloodlines (which I think should be called something slightly different to set them apart from Sorcerer bloodlines, by the way). I'm thinking some more unique abilities that can be used by expending a point of blood focus (which should probably be 3 + Int times per day), with new options at something like 6th, 12th, and 18th levels, and a cool capstone at 20th. Here's an example of the type of thing I'm thinking:Spoiler:
The cool thing with this is that you could then start publishing focused bloodline schools based on the focused Wizard schools that have already been published, and you could make Thassilonian variants and Elemental School variants, etc. This is an opportunity to give the class something really special and unique, as opposed to rehashing the Sorcerer bloodlines mechanic.
What does everyone think of this?
** spoiler omitted **...
The spellbook + spontaneous casting is a great approach to combining the two spellcasting mechanics, just need to make sure that the number of spells per day and spells prepared are balanced. Raiderrpg had mentioned in another thread that using the Sorcerer's spells known table may be an issue, but I'm assuming you started with the status quo to see how it plays out. I'd be curious how a wizard's spells per day with a diminished sorcerer's spells known would work out. But that's a discussion for some other time.
I think Cartmanbeck has a very good approach. I believe, in the end, Blood Focus (name pending) will remain in the class. The casting mechanic is essentially an amalgam of wizard/sorcerer (giving it the feel of the hybrid we're looking for). This then gives Paizo the opportunity to make the "Blood Focus" ability unique. Building specific "Bloodline Schools" LOOSLEY based on the arcane schools is a great approach to make this unique. Usable 3 + Int per day (similar to Arcane Pool or Ki Pool mechanics, already proven to work), and creating unique, flavorful Bloodline School abilities will give the versatility the class needs, and yet be different from Wizard and Sorcerer, as each of these gain permanent school or bloodline powers. Perhaps even the opportunity to add a second Bloodline School, but all powers working off the single Blood Focus "pool".
Something to consider if you go this route is to add in some unique "Bloodline Schools", such as basing them off of things like Primal Magic, Spellblights, even Spell Dueling for a more offensive arcanist. Just some thoughts.
Capstone ability could or could not be part of the "Bloodline Schools".
I think this would go a long way to flesh out the rest of the flavor and function of the class, giving it something unique, yet familiar to both Wizard and Sorcerer lovers, but also adds to the versatility and choices the players can have.
|
I think calling the arcanist overpowered is a bit of a misstatement. It is not balanced when compared with the wizard and the sorcerer in that it does not give up enough from either class in trying to pair the two of them. It still gains access to bloodline powers and school powers which are the two major non spell casting abilities from both classes which is fine keep them. But increased versatility of spell selection and a slight downgrade in number of spells per day compared to the sorcerer is honestly a bit better than what either class offers really. I also think that gaining bonus feats and scribe scroll are a tad unnecessary. Finally the mechanic for Blood pool seems to be a bit clunky, just gaining bloodline powers or the eldritch heritage feat at appropriate levels might be a more welcome solution. In the end I would keep the school powers and sorcerer bloodline power and bonus spells and dump the bonus feats and scribe scroll. Finally keep the spell casting mechanics because it is a neat hybrid between the way both classes cast spells.
@Excaliburproxy & Nildayre: I was about to say that, that one wasn't my idea! ^_^'
Spell Slots: Make it the same as the wizard, with one level of delay. The way it is now, the Arcanist is more flexible that a wizard or a sorcerer, and can, overall, cast more spells that a wizard.
This isn't true, as has now been pointed out dozens of times on this thread by a number of people. The arcanist receives the same number of or fewer spells per day as a specialist wizard. He will have less than half the spells available in terms of the number of different spells prepared than a wizard.
Can we stick to what the class actually does instead of hyperbole?
|
But is that fair? How many people don't specialize? I look at the current way of specialization and don't feel as if I give up that much to do it, so why WOULDN'T I specialize. Now, if you talk about being a Thassilonian Specialist, that's a different discussion, but then you certainly have more spells than a Arcanist.
I really like the ideas to retool blood surge, I think that is what the class needs to make it 'feel' right.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Presumably the Shining Dinosaur is using the Universalist Wizard as his base comparison.Spell Slots: Make it the same as the wizard, with one level of delay. The way it is now, the Arcanist is more flexible that a wizard or a sorcerer, and can, overall, cast more spells that a wizard.
This isn't true, as has now been pointed out dozens of times on this thread by a number of people. The arcanist receives the same number of or fewer spells per day as a specialist wizard. He will have less than half the spells available in terms of the number of different spells prepared than a wizard.
Can we stick to what the class actually does instead of hyperbole?
Which is sadly just not a thing players do very often even if they are new to the game.
I thought about this class conceptually and I have this to say.
Ultimately the "weak blooded sorcerer" line doesn't sit well. It's basically telling me that the character has enough magic to warp reality but not enough magic to manifest claws or wings, or invisibility with any sort of regularity.
I think a different direction needs to be taken here. Rather then calling it a weak blooded sorcerer allow the arcanist to be an explorer of the very nature of magic itself. Consider that if a wizard uses magic as a tool for his goals and a sorcerer uses magic because he is in a sense magic then an arcanist is the wizard who explores magic itself.
From this perspective the arcanist can open himself up to a lot more possibilities. Since it seems they make very good generalists (where wizards and sorcs ultimately specialize) it might be a pretty good idea to do away with the blood focus mechanic as is and explore a number of arcana (such as what maguses have) that allow the arcanist to explore different corners of magic. Arcana's that can allow them to pick school powers and bloodline powers are a start.
Just something to think about how a conceptual change can help grease a mechanical rework.
|
|
After reading over the rules and a bit of the back and forth in this thread, I feel the class overall is almost what I have wanted for a long time. The idea of having prepared slots and casting spontaneously from those slots is something I have definitely wanted. However, the blood focus ability with its interplay between schools and bloodlines and the school supremacy both fall a bit short. Both are bland and blood focus feels like a wrapper on top of bloodline powers with additional drawbacks.
I would have preferred the class to have the spell-casting as written with a mixture of bloodline and school which is neither bloodline or school. I feel characters using this class should have a mixture of trained ability and natural ability with individuals ranging along the spectrum somewhat. The following suggestions attempt to bring the class closer to this focus with some more unique mechanics in mind.
I would alter blood focus to give a bonus (with a per day limit) when casting spells from either bloodline bonus spell list or your chosen school. The bonus should be something along the lines of +1 CL/DC or spontaneously apply meta-magic without increasing cast time. I would probably also rename blood focus to something which keeps the theme of trained/natural ability (e.g., Practiced Talent).
School Supremacy should either be a unique abilty for each bloodline/school mix OR we should have a mastery at 19th and 20th level to split between bloodline and school (this is similar to fighters armor mastery and weapon mastery). The static supremacy is boring.
As a final note, I would also be in favor of limiting selection to the basic schools and bloodlines, ignoring subschools and wild bloodlines. The subschools represent more focused trained ability and the wild bloodlines represent stronger or more defined natural ability. Would probably also be good to limit support to just CRB bloodlines and schools.
These changes all emphasize a mixture of natural ability and trained ability. If the Arcanist is going to attain its own identity, the class should distance itself from the actual mechanics of bloodlines and schools. The spell-casting is a unique blend of wizard and sorcerer and the class should definitely mention bloodline and school, but the class needs its own unique mechanics which are not simply a wrapper on top of the existing mechanics.
Has anyone suggested something like Magus Arcana, where they can choose abilities? Like they could choose a familiar, have something like the Concentration arcana, improve/expand their blood focus, stuff like that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If I could influence the class, I would dump the blood pool concept. Instead, I would add a series of abilities surrounding the motif of magical genius. Allow the arcanist more control over the effects of his or her spells. Let them change things like area, range and duration and element type. They already look to be focused on fluidity, embrace it, and separate them thematically from the sorcerer and wizard.
When I first read this, I thought it was a great idea, and it definitely /feels/ like one, but the more I looked it over and thought about implementation, the more I realize you're talking about something already in the game: Metamagic feats. Now, maybe what you're saying here is "they should get bonus metamagic feats and be able to play with them better than Sorcerer or Wizard can," in which case that's a valid idea, but what I'm seeing here is just "metamagic master." And my problem with this, and even your whole concept the more I read, is that it really DOES seem to be the wizard.
You bring up the idea of a Genius, but our geniuses historically aren't people who have something special other than intelligence... They're just those guys who maxed out intelligence. If we were to randomize ability scores like real life sort of gives, we're talking about 0.08% of people, the guys packing that 20 intelligence at level one. (Note that this is only 0.46% of elves, which encourages the belief that elves are the masters of arcane)
I don't think the idea of the natural genius is a good one, because plenty of Wizards with high int would have that, and it's just that their study lets them learn this knowledge.
Flavorwise, I think our best example in cultures are Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker, and even these are poor ones. The Arcanist, at least the one presented, is someone who has natural magic within but who, unlike our X-Men Sorcerers, it doesn't explode out of. They're characters who have to /understand/ what they are in order to properly maximize their capabilities.
Really, I think what we need most of all is an example. Harry Potter, for all his hard work and study, plays like a spontaneous caster.
...And a good example just came to me.
I don't know who even remembers this show, but I used to watch Charmed pretty regularly. It starred three 'witches.' They had innate magical talent, and they each had some powers that they could just 'do' whenever they wanted (Precognition, telekinetics, etc), but then they also had their book. And when they wanted to do something else, they went to the book and the book told them how to do it and they read and tinkered and recited and did their spell... But the only things they could do without the book were their handful of personal powers.
THIS could be a good direction for the spellcasting to take, and I've actually got a pretty crazy notion for how it might work, which would help really make it feel between sorcerer and wizard and help alleviate some of the issues of straight up merging them...
Two sets of spell slots
One set would be the "Combat" set. These would be a number of spells known and spells per day, all spontaneous, that just worked like a sorcerer's. It'd have fewer spells known and spells per day than a sorcerer, though not by too much. This would just be their magic. Maybe 1 known per level less than sorcerer, one or two less per day. This is flavorfully just "your powers, this is what your magic lets you do."
And then the other set uses a spellbook. And maybe it's prepared, giving you one or two prepared slots per level on the side, but what I'm actually thinking is to not even fill the slots. Let it, a few times per day, spend lets say 3 full round actions, or maybe 1 minute to just cast a spell out of the book. You wouldn't be able to "silver bullet" enemies without friends acting as road blocks because of significantly increased casting times, but what you COULD do is say "You know what we need right now? Knock" and then cast Knock right out of the book. Maybe this isn't even slots, because when you're talking noncombat spells the spell level isn't so important. Maybe you just have a book and X times a day you can spend 1 minute to cast a spell directly from the book, and it doesn't matter what the spell is. And you'd also get scribe scroll for free, representing the ability to prepare spells from your book ahead of time but not as well as a wizard does it.
The result of this is a character who, in combat, plays like a slightly weaker sorcerer, but then manages to swiss-army-knife other encounters better than a Wizard because the person's innately magical and can come up with answers on the fly as long as she's made sure they're in her book.
-----------------
A second, simpler option, would be to have its casting work /mostly/ like a wizard, but give it "Spontaneous Spells" like a Cleric or Druid have, but instead of spontaneously casting Cure/Inflict/Summon, you get to choose what spells you can spontaneously cast as you level up, creating a character who can prepare all sorts of utility spells and then when combat happens say "Screw it, fireball" because they were secretly a sorcerer the whole time.
-----------------
I really do think the casting as presented is too good. The math's been done by others, and I can think of a fix that would appease me that would fit the flavor better- Eliminate one prepared slot per spell level per day, automatically give them the bloodline spell of the appropriate level in place of that slot, prepared instead of just learned. This, of course, doesn't mesh with my "no bloodline" idea, but with my idea I'd then make it a specialized slot where they have to prepare something with the appropriate Descriptor, or Summon Monster. (Why Summon Monster? Because it doesn't get its descriptor until you actually cast it, and it easily accesses 8 descriptors.) Of course, if I was doing a total rebuild, I'd probably find someone to help me with the numbers on my charmed-style casting to make it work.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You bring up the idea of a Genius, but our geniuses historically aren't people who have something special other than intelligence...
I respectfully disagree. Leonardo Da Vinci was both a genius and a natural talent. If he were a spellcaster (as I'm pretty sure he'd be if magic was real! =D), he would be perfectly represented by the Arcanist, I think. Well, at least the Arcanist idealized by Nildayre. :)
You bring up the idea of a Genius, but our geniuses historically aren't people who have something special other than intelligence...I respectfully disagree. Leonardo Da Vinci was both a genius and a natural talent. If he were a spellcaster (as I'm pretty sure he'd be if magic was real! =D), he would be perfectly represented by the Arcanist, I think. Well, at least the Arcanist idealized by Nildayre. :)
See, my issue here, I think, is that I see that natural talent as being... a giant intelligence score. Leonardo Da Vinci was really smart and also really smart. With Arcanist, we're trying to attribute this "above and beyond" as some sort of innate magic, but because that doesn't have an analog in real life, we've just got someone who's above and beyond by virtue of a high int. Also, I think you could reasonably have a "genius" in any class. One could be a "Genius" wizard, understanding magic better than any other, but one could also be a "Genius" bard who wrote and performed wonderful unique songs (see: Freddy Mercury, Paul McCartney), or even a "Genius" Fighter who knew a great many different combat styles and managed to combine them in ways noone else had.
It sounds like a more appropriate feel would be sort of what the Bard always is: someone who feels the magic and understands it and yes they have to learn and practice but they control it with a mix of both logical understanding and internal feeling.
I think my issue with the Arcanist is that it feels like an arbitrary hybrid that exists to fill a design goal of making such a hybrid. It isn't so much built around a mechanic as it just IS a walking mechanic.
This class does not fulfill any fantasy trope that isn't already VERY well covered by Sorc/Wizard. I just don't see where this fits in as a real class... this is just a mechanical, flavorless collection of numbers.
This is why a class like the Investigator seems so cool. It has an actual idea behind it. Same with the swashbuckler, the hunter (though that class needs serious work), the bloodrager....
This.... this is a joke. Whether or not its overpowered seems less important to me than the fact that it is thematically dead on the inside. This is a theorycrafter's design with a "what-if" premise and absolutely no soul. Cast spells, get a pool of +1 CL/+1 DC points... WOW... yeah how have we been playing Pathfinder without THAT CLASSIC fantasy character being available. Blech.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You bring up the idea of a Genius, but our geniuses historically aren't people who have something special other than intelligence...I respectfully disagree. Leonardo Da Vinci was both a genius and a natural talent. If he were a spellcaster (as I'm pretty sure he'd be if magic was real! =D), he would be perfectly represented by the Arcanist, I think. Well, at least the Arcanist idealized by Nildayre. :)See, my issue here, I think, is that I see that natural talent as being... a giant intelligence score. Leonardo Da Vinci was really smart and also really smart. With Arcanist, we're trying to attribute this "above and beyond" as some sort of innate magic, but because that doesn't have an analog in real life, we've just got someone who's above and beyond by virtue of a high int. Also, I think you could reasonably have a "genius" in any class. One could be a "Genius" wizard, understanding magic better than any other, but one could also be a "Genius" bard who wrote and performed wonderful unique songs (see: Freddy Mercury, Paul McCartney), or even a "Genius" Fighter who knew a great many different combat styles and managed to combine them in ways noone else had.
It sounds like a more appropriate feel would be sort of what the Bard always is: someone who feels the magic and understands it and yes they have to learn and practice but they control it with a mix of both logical understanding and internal feeling.
Hmmmm, differing perceptions, I guess. For me, a Wizard would be an engineer, while a Sorcerer would be an artist. The Arcanist could be the middle point between them, which in my example could be an architect. Being a successful architect requires a good deal of knowledge (hence, intelligence), but also requires a good deal of "feeling" (which, I think, better relates to charisma). Not discounting your point, by the way, just expressing how I feel about it. :)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not going to read through the whole thread, but thought I would post some numbers that came up.
People (in my group) are saying the arcanist is more flexible than the wizard, because the wizard has to decide how many of which spell to prep each morning, where the arcanist gets to distribute his slots as needed amongst his preps.
So I did the math. It is true for low level spells, but for the high level spells, the wizard is far more flexible:
Arcanist Vs specialist arcane bond wizard.
Level 5
A: preps 2 2nd level spells, can cast them 3 times:
W: Preps 3 level 2, 2 level 3, can cast each once +1 spontaneous any level spell.
Level 8
A: preps one level 4, casts it twice
W: preps 3 level 4s, casts each once + one spontaneous any level.
Level 11
A: preps 2 level 5s, casts them 3 times
W: preps 3 level 5s, 2 level 6, casts each once +1 spontaneous any level.
Wizard wins the high level flex hand down, at every level he either has access to one level higher spells, or the arcanist can only prep one spell, which is the same as the wizard preping that same spell twice, and still getting to prep something else additional, and get to arcane bond.
This class does not fulfill any fantasy trope that isn't already VERY well covered by Sorc/Wizard. I just don't see where this fits in as a real class... this is just a mechanical, flavorless collection of numbers.The exact same thing can be said about the fighter. All they are are feats and generic armor/weapon abilities.
However, you can make extremely different types of fighters with just those tools.
The best example I know is based on the Hero System, where they have very bland powers that function the same. Energy Blast is a vanilla ranged damage ability. It functions the same for every character. The player defines what this energy blast looks like: a stream of fire, a jolt of lightning, a bean bag gun, a thrown baseball, a telekinetic punch, an energized card, etc. The sky is the limit on what all this power can do. You can take the bland powers defined in the Hero System and create nearly every single super hero and villain that has ever been thought up. That's a strength of the system.
Similarly, having a very vanilla arcanist lends itself to an extremely wide definition conceptual class. You could be a ray caster, an area blast, a summoner, a controller, a generalist, and just about anything else under the sun you can imagine using arcane magic in Pathfinder. The limit is the imagination of the player and nearly nothing is standing in its way (except for that blurb about Blood stuff, which can conveniently be ignored to get to the vanilla arcanist with little loss in the current incarnation).
Bland can be very appealing to a lot of people.
However, it isn't for all of course...
I can agree with the fighter seeming like that blank slate... but the Wizard also already has a very similar blank slate sort of approach.
This is like making a NEW fighter that is built around some new mechanical thought about how to apply weapon training and armor training slightly differently in addition to the current fighter.
I would have no issue with this class if the Sorcerer/Wizard din't already exist, but they do. The arcanist should probably just exist as an alternate casting method or a possible revision to the vancian casting system. This thing reads like an archtype, and not a unique class.
One could easily make a Cleric/Oracle with this same mechanic, and it would read exactly the same way. That is troubling to me.
A class shouldn't exist just because. It should have a real place in the world and fill a particular role or theme or idea. That can come from a blank slate sort of class like the fighter, that can be adapted to fill a large number of different variations on the iconic warrior, sure. How is the Arcanist doing that? This is not a 'list of mutable options' class. This is an arcane spellcasting variant that provides mechanical differences but no thematic identity.
For those wondering I have done something similar to an Arcanist. It was admittedly better than a sorcerer, but it was not as powerful as a wizard. That is how I came up with the opinion on the arcanist which I will quote below. Now since the arcanist is not working exactly like my experiment did I still think it deserves a playtest. Maybe I overlooked something in the playtest pdf, and forcing me to playtest it and make one will allow me to see something different.
Anyway here is my quote from the locked thread.
I do think a player that knows what he is doing with regard to picking spells wont see a significant drop off, but he will still have to choose daily spells carefully. Either way I see the him doing better than he would with a sorcerer.
I want the arcanist to be able to prepare one less spell per day than it does, but I have already mentioned that. I will try to get some roll20 games going and have players fight against sorc, arcanist, and wizard of the same level and theme..
My guess is that the arcanist will be less effective as an NPC combat compared to the sorc and wizard at lower levels. It will come online around level 7. It will pass the sorc or wizard depending on how you play them around level 10, and be on par with the other around level 13. Once again playstyle is a factor.
As a PC it will surpass the sorcerer around level 7 IMHO, and start to challenge the wizard around the time it gets 7th level spells.
PS: This is all theorycrafting. :)
I should have said partially theorycrafting, but oh well. :)
