Alright, so in pretty much everything I do, Pathfinder or otherwise, I play Chaotic Neutral with a tendency towards Good. It's just who I am. At least, up until recently. I just haven't been feeling it. And I'd like to try coming over to the dark side. Because I most certainly have been feeling that. So I'd like some advice on being Evil. I don't know what sort of Evil I'd like to be, what class I'd like to be, or anything along those lines. I just know I'd like to make a foray into the dark arts. And I'd like some advice on how to do so. Anything you can offer, I would greatly appreciate.
Well, I tend to not enjoy magic, but I think I could get into it playing an evil character. Martial classes are something I tend to go for heavily; I've always been the guy that tackles the Pit Fiend off a cliff. Not sure if I should continue to play something like that here though. I'm really up for anything; I just want to get the full flavor of evil. I want to drown in it really. XD
Anti-Paladins can be LE in this campaign, already know that.
Edit- I'm not interested in Necromancy, however. Just not my thing. I'd prefer to focus on my characters personal power.
Not all Chaotic Evil is considered Stupid Evil. Generally Evil is bound by reason and aspiration for power.
A lot of times being Evil while also being a PC requires creativity and a lot of wits, considering you're not going to be dealing with "OH HI, I MADE SOME PIE TODAY, WANT SOME?" Chances are, that Pie is going to be an explosion waiting to happen or an evil monster coming out and eating you.
For example, an Evil character might simply kill things because he enjoys the exhilaration he feels from it. He believes that he wants to live to provide more killing.
However, this kind of Evil gets stale and quite frankly isn't really cut out for it (since it's also a matter of nature). The Larger Scale of Evil works quite nicely in attempts to pull off betrayals of the pure, securing the strongest of power sources for their own, as well as having an unethical view on something. Here's a small-scale example:
Evil Guy: "Good, with how cold those a**holes have been to me, it's only fitting I join in burning them to the ground!"
A mid-scale example:
Fake Good Guy: "Great work everybody! *Backstab*"
Good Guy 2: "YOU MURDEROUS TRAITOR, HOW COULD YOU?!"
Fake Good Guy (now Evil Guy): "Mostly because he was such a gullible fool, watching his gaze go from delight to fright and despair was all worth the ruse. On top of which, because I can and so I can have this power to control the evil monster as my pet!"
A large-scale example:
Evil Guy: *Interrupts Good Guy's Suppression Spell* "Oops, did I just ruin your last chance to live? My bad; I'll make sure you get plenty of chances to die, though!"
That's a pretty interesting idea. Although I would prefer to focus on my character's personal power, I do rather like the idea, and will consider it. Thank you.
Any other ideas? I'd love to have a large number of options to choose from.
Anti-Paladins can be LE in this campaign, already know that.
Way of the Wicked AP, perchance?
One of my players in Way of the Wicked is a ranged gish. with new ruling on SLA's for requirements he is going F1/W1/EK5/AA10/EK3.
Thats +19 BAB, and a CL of 15. You can switch this build in so many ways, he just wanted lots of utility spells and be a damn good bow user.
I greatly appreciate the examples Darksol, I could certainly use more tips on how to RP Evil.
And I honestly don't know what you're talking about Shadowborn. XD
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It helps to know what type of person your playing and why and how they're evil. They're are a lot of kinds of evils out there, and lots of ways to play them. It might help if you state what kind of evil you strive for, or if there are any ideas you currently have or might find acceptable.
Personally, I like the evil that has a reason to be evil. A good villain doesn't just eat kittens and kick puppies, he's someone you can empathize with. He talks, eats, and breaths just like everyone else. He's human. Eldritch evils and sociopaths are one thing, but its really terrifying when its someone who can talk you into being evil and make you feel like maybe he's right. These guys can carry emotional weight that affects those around them, and can be subtle and underneath it all. I like this evil because its not foreign, its not random, and it can play with other PCs in a variety of other motives and alignments without turning into PvP, as opposed to the various forms of stupid evil tend who are sociopathic idiots with a chronic backstabbing disorder.
Evil through your own personal power can come in a lot of forms in personality and class. Classes are mostly not bound to alignments, but thematically anti-paladins and barbarians make good choices, but that doesn't mean monks, magus, nor fighters or anyone else can't be one either. You can play a character who is obsessed with personal strength and proving oneself, who puts others at risk for example. You can play a barbarian from a tribe that thinks brutality is just fine, and even a way of life. You can play a noble magus from a failing nation trying to revive it personally rather than relying on the resources given to him. Lots and lots of choices beyond that.
Honestly I have no idea what sort of person I'd like to play, or why he's evil. I also have no idea what class or playstyle I'm looking for. That's why I'm here. I'm looking for options, so I can narrow them down myself. I just don't know how to be evil really. I don't know what could be fun to RP as evil, or how to do so. And I'd like to hear what other people find works well for this, so I might find something that sounds interesting to me.
I appreciate that thoroughly lucky7. XD
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Honestly I have no idea what sort of person I'd like to play, or why he's evil. I also have no idea what class or playstyle I'm looking for. That's why I'm here. I'm looking for options, so I can narrow them down myself. I just don't know how to be evil really. I don't know what could be fun to RP as evil, or how to do so. And I'd like to hear what other people find works well for this, so I might find something that sounds interesting to me.
I hate to be cheesey, but like with all things the most important thing is that you have fun.
Also remember, evil is easy, You do it all the time without even thinking about it. What's a small action for the greater good, hmm? I can promise you no one has to be hurt.
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I must also give the quote: "Any idiot can burn a man's house down, but a smart one can sell him the torch, convince him to burn it, and make him jump in."
I'd rather bed the man's wife, buy his house and turn it into a fertilizer factory, light him on fire and bed his sister and daughter over top of his grave.
But perhaps that's just me.
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I think the greatest character I've ever played was evil. My fellow players had no idea that I was evil until an alignment spell outed me.
My fellow players had no idea that nearly every person that we spoke to in our quest to find an artifact was then murdered by me. I mean why should they know. It didn't hurt them... I was helping. I didn't want the informants to tell other adventurers or evil monsters what they knew. Be sides loose ends make a whole mess of trouble.
My fellow players also didn't know that the crime we were blamed for in city "A" was one that I had actually committed. They just thought it was a plot point. They all thought that I had learned a bit of information about a enemy via a divination spell... not torture.
I didn't steal from the party, I didn't back stab them, I didn't kill them or argue. If I disagreed I just took matters into my own hands. Of course this all required DM approval but it was all great fun and when the other players found out it was awesome.
Alright, so in pretty much everything I do, Pathfinder or otherwise, I play Chaotic Neutral with a tendency towards Good. It's just who I am. At least, up until recently. I just haven't been feeling it. And I'd like to try coming over to the dark side. Because I most certainly have been feeling that. So I'd like some advice on being Evil. I don't know what sort of Evil I'd like to be, what class I'd like to be, or anything along those lines. I just know I'd like to make a foray into the dark arts. And I'd like some advice on how to do so. Anything you can offer, I would greatly appreciate.
There are many, many ways in which one could perpetrate evil in the world of Pathfinder. It might be more useful if you could give a little bit more information on exactly how or what you want to play. You've asked a very broad question.
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Me too! :DI must also give the quote: "Any idiot can burn a man's house down, but a smart one can sell him the torch, convince him to burn it, and make him jump in."I'd rather bed the man's wife, buy his house and turn it into a fertilizer factory, light him on fire and bed his sister and daughter over top of his grave.
But perhaps that's just me.
What kind of modifiers to Bluff are you guys packing!?
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Try THIS THREAD for some good ideas on playing evil.
MA
None.
Women just enjoy a strong alpha male unafraid to give them the pleasure they desire.
As for the kitten eating and all that? Well I run around with a living breathing devil in disguise. My other companions are a gross and also I deeply suspect a cannibal with sexual tastes towards young men and there's also a large well spoken man with a big sword and a mask made of human flesh.
Yes it's a black robe and onyx dagger sort of crowd but eloquent well spoken evil that simply enjoys the finer points in life is just so rare these days. I feel everyone is just simply over doing it.
You see I'm not the sort of evil that slays paladins and devours their hearts. I'm the sort of man who takes pictures of my romantic tryst with your wife. I then place these in front of you as your guts spill on the ground. When I win, I win comepletely.
What kind of modifiers to Bluff are you guys packing!?
Just enough, certainly not enough to tell you any more than they've already told.
Remember that Evil doesn't necessitate zero loyalty and zero care for others.
You're allowed to have friends. True friends even, if you can make them.
None.
Women just enjoy a strong alpha male unafraid to give them the pleasure they desire.
You don't have to be evil to accomplish that.
Captain Kirk, anyone?
Remember that Evil doesn't necessitate zero loyalty and zero care for others.
You're allowed to have friends. True friends even, if you can make them.
Evil characters can have the power of love!
Here are some ideas off the top of my head based on alignment:
Lawful Evil -
Antipaladin/Noble - By no means optimal, you play this guy as a noble who's become disenfranchised and turned to evil for his own selfish gains. Eventually pick up Leadership (if it's allowed) and build your own realm of evil servants and subvert the local government.
Monk - Think wacky fu-manchu style villain and go from there. The pursuit of personal power as the only path to enlightenment. You could also take the wacky pseudo-evil archetype (Ghost Face or I think there's another one that's pretty evil themed).
Cavalier/Hellknight - Can also work as Fighter, pretty flavorful and very Golarion based. What's fun is that you can also be the evil guy who hates devils with this concept, which means you can work well with a mixed group.
Neutral Evil -
Dwarf Rogue - Yeah, dwarves are terrible rogues, so what? This guy oozes flavor (granted it's stereotypical) as the gem hoarding, greedy as hell curmudgeon. I'd suggest making him a ranged rogue to bypass the problems with his speed, but it's up to you.
Illusionist - The over the top playboy, who just so happens to be middle aged or older and uses illusions to hide his "ugliness". Very vain, and pretty stellar in combat with all the illusion/invisibility. Can multi-class rogue if you want, but taking a ton of battlefield control spells that don't break invisibility is also fun.
Whip Magus - Similar to above, basically concerned with having a good time and damned the local laws! The whip is a big flavor piece, you can do any kind of swashbuckly weapon with this guy, and just true strike you way into every gullible maiden's heart.
Chaotic Evil -
Barbarian - Now normally this would be an excuse to play some wacky race, but I think for our purposes here plain human is the way to go. Remember, chaotic doesn't mean stupid. Play this guy as an extremely racist and superstitious Kellid. Have him HATE spellcasters, humanoids, and anyone he feels is weak. He won't go out of his way to cause chaos, but whoa to his enemies on the battlefield. This guy is just looking for an excuse.
Alchemist - BOOM! This guy loves poison, "science", and blowing things up. If your DM is allowing goblins, you can do that here and just by a pyro (remember, chaotic =\= stupid). Alternatively, the rejected elven "intellect" that's searching for revenge against his whole race or something similar can work.
Ranger - Chaotic Evil Rangers make great bounty hunters. As a human you'll get a lot of benefit from favored enemy human, and most people won't realize how sadistic you are, after all you're taking out other criminals after all. Funny how dead or alive is always dead though? This could also work with any of the evil alignments really.
Those are just some ideas off the top of my head. Depending on what's available you have lots of options (Android available? How about the evil Android who wants revenge on the meat races that want him enslaved? And all the normal evil tropes can be fun as well, just remember, evil does not equal stupid). As if I needed to mention it again, lol.
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And just some general RP tips for evil folks (in my opinion, remember anytime you talk alignment people get angry, so YMMV with these):
One thing to remember is that typically (and I can't stress that enough) evil characters don't think of themselves as "evil" or "the bad guy". Part of being evil is having the hubris to believe that you are more entitled or more "just" in your demands and wants than others.
Lawful Evil - These guys want to use the law to their own ends. Typically they follow the rules, but aren't above "creative reimagining" to ensure they get the outcome they want. If you're planning to play a LE character, you can actually play very similar to a LN character. The big difference is in the reason behind your actions. Where a LN character won't be happy if the party rogue steals a bunch of gold, the LE character won't mind, may even reprimand the thief, but will be happy for the extra coin, assuming no one can prove it was stolen. LE will also not be opposed to torture (for the good of the people of course), extortion (well, with a donation we could let this slide, for the greater good you understand), or murder (they were clearly a threat that couldn't be rehabilitated).
Neutral Evil - These guys are out for number 1. Of course, the best way to stay safe is to have powerful friends. Neutral Evil PCs won't readily betray the party, because they know it's a lost cause if it's 4v1. These guys will be sneaks, or power-hungry casters just looking to improve their own personal power. Often narcissistic and greedy, you'll try to hide your contempt of the "idiots" in the party, and do what you can to make money on the side. And as much as it may pain you, you'll "give in" if you get caught by the party and let that extra gold go.
Chaotic Evil - You're with the group because they let you do what you do best, which is destroy everything that gets in your way. You may frequently find yourself frustrated by the lack of action in the group, and wonder they won't kill things when it would just make everything so much easier. Oddly the CN guy probably will be the last one to see how evil you are, and you'll want to avoid groups heavy with LG and LN characters, but in a Neutral or Chaotic group, you're just "passionate" about combat and getting through situations.
Again, these are rough, general guidelines meant to get your creative juices flowing, not hard and fast "this is how you do it" rules.
Neutral Evil - These guys are out for number 1. Of course, the best way to stay safe is to have powerful friends. Neutral Evil PCs won't readily betray the party, because they know it's a lost cause if it's 4v1. These guys will be sneaks, or power-hungry casters just looking to improve their own personal power. Often narcissistic and greedy, you'll try to hide your contempt of the "idiots" in the party, and do what you can to make money on the side. And as much as it may pain you, you'll "give in" if you get caught by the party and let that extra gold go.
I resent this remark. I am not greedy.
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What qualifies as evil will vary from GM to GM and person to person. That's always something to think about.
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I said often, clearly a man of your taste is just asking for what is rightfully owed to him. I mean, what woman wouldn't throw herself at you? And surely you can't be expected to pay full price, look at the quality, they should be happy you're taking it off their hands.
Lawful Evil characters are very fun. I've played one (technically the same guy) in two different campaigns. They fit so perfectly as a "Twisting the morals of your master" thing.
If you wanna read a bit I have some stuff here and here that demonstrates (vaguely) the kind of attitude a character may take. I'll admit some behavior in The Blackest Scale was more CE, since when playing bad cop I decided it'd be fun to channel Vaas Montenegro...
For example (from my stuff) Irori's self-perfection schtick is easily perverted to evil with no big changes in philosophy, just methods.
Personally, I think LE is the most fun alignment in the game. It pretty much has all the pros of Good and Evil combined.
Having an honor code and clearly defined goals means you can justify any course of action you choose, Good OR Evil, it's just your methods and lack of empathy that defines you.
I'd suggest a Monk, an Anti-Paladin, or a Ranger class-wise, personally. All 3 bring something to the table built into their flavor that will help you define your personality, whether it be based around an obsessive need for power (over body AND soul), devotion to your Diabolical lord, or hatred of a certain kind of creature and/or dedication to fighting them.
Rangers and Monks are shoe-ins for the Espionage masters of the group as well for Way of the Wicked (being Wisdom based and assassin-y in flavor), which can help you carve out a specific niche in the party.
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Being Evil.
Evil is freedom AND power.
Stop thinking of others are more deserving than you are. Or even as equals. The vast majority of them are cowards, whether sheep or carrion eaters. Some people you might actually respect, but those are rare and far between.
Some good inspiration lies in the Scorpion Clan in L5R. How they consider Honor is how you should consider Good : a meaningless system that only makes those who adhere to it easier to manipulate.
Have fun and do what you want without considering how other people see it. They say you are damned already, so why not take it to the top ? Be blatant about it when you can and subtle when you need.
And when the end comes, surely you can end up at the top again.
Remember. All those people condemning you have no idea what you lived through. They probably would have done far worse if they were in your shoes.
Look up affably evil on tvtropes.com. Then, do that. You're evil, but damnit, everyone loves you.
Alright, so I think I've come to a decision, thanks to all the spectacular advice you guys have given me. Seriously, it's overwhelming how helpful you guys have been; thank you.
Basically, this is the idea-
I plan to play a Kitsune(male) who used to run an orphanage in a small town. He always cared deeply for children, so it was an easy life-choice for him. However, the racist government decided it would be a good idea to burn his orphanage to the ground while he was away, killing all the children inside.
That would be his motivation for being evil. He hates this evil government, and still protects children whenever possible, but is willing to go to any length to achieve revenge against those who slaughtered those he tried to save.
He would use bluff/diplomacy and possibly disguise to mask his intentions to the party, coming off as neutral or even good to them and anyone else unless he reveals such or someone casts detect alignment. This is to help further his goals.
As far as class, I'm thinking either Sorcerer, or Monk, as the flavor of both those really seems fun, and Monk in particular seems to fit this backstory well.
This would obviously be either LE or NE, as a CE would be unlikely to follow this route, though not impossible I suppose.
Does this seem applicable?
Edit- I hope to have him slowly lose sight of any morals he once had and devolve to the point of a power-obsession.
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I would go for the arsonists being a local hate group. Who probably wanted to just burn the orphanage a bit and did not foresee the conflagration and all the innocent victims.
The local media turned this as being on the damn kitsune's head somehow. And the local police did go with this idea, maybe even making it appear as an accident and blaming him for insufficient security measures.
Basically, many small evil and selfish actions that lead him to see enemies everywhere.
Kitsune with the Realistic Likeness feat could be great there for striking back at his enemies while they are unaware of his true identity (a la Monte Cristo). Maybe he will kill (or pretend he killed) their own children so that they feel some part of the pain he endured.
As a class, Monk could be nice, but I envision a Rogue/Ninja or a Ranger (favored enemies : humans) as a better fit.
With this adjusted backstory, I would see him as NE or even CE, as being Lawful and against authorities is not that easy to balance.
Trying very hard to not spoil anything specific, but the orphanage bit will either be very helpful...or very harmful in this AP.
Alright, so I think I've come to a decision, thanks to all the spectacular advice you guys have given me. Seriously, it's overwhelming how helpful you guys have been; thank you.
Basically, this is the idea-
I plan to play a Kitsune(male) who used to run an orphanage in a small town. He always cared deeply for children, so it was an easy life-choice for him. However, the racist government decided it would be a good idea to burn his orphanage to the ground while he was away, killing all the children inside.
That would be his motivation for being evil. He hates this evil government, and still protects children whenever possible, but is willing to go to any length to achieve revenge against those who slaughtered those he tried to save.
He would use bluff/diplomacy and possibly disguise to mask his intentions to the party, coming off as neutral or even good to them and anyone else unless he reveals such or someone casts detect alignment. This is to help further his goals.
As far as class, I'm thinking either Sorcerer, or Monk, as the flavor of both those really seems fun, and Monk in particular seems to fit this backstory well.
This would obviously be either LE or NE, as a CE would be unlikely to follow this route, though not impossible I suppose.
Does this seem applicable?
Edit- I hope to have him slowly lose sight of any morals he once had and devolve to the point of a power-obsession.
It is my impression that this doesn't really even qualify (specifically) as a reason to be lawful evil. Lawful neutral, perhaps, but evil? He's basically avenging the dead children. He's an anti-hero. I might suggest an alternative thought based upon the general concept.
He was there at the orphanage when it was destroyed, but it wasn't destroyed by agents of the government, it was destroyed by agents of the church of (insert good-aligned god here) for harboring some sort of demonic presence (that of course your kitsune had no knowledge of). They tortured confessions out of the children, and burned them to death before his eyes. He was the "innocent" of the group, although he may have been marked as well by the inquisitors (presumably) that rooted out the evil from the orphanage.
It was all too much for your kitsune to bear, and he sought justice. The courts would give him none, and he believes them to be in the pockets of the church. Mercenaries would give him no peace, as they weren't foolish enough to tackle agents of the church, especially for the paltry amount of money that he was able to offer them in return. (Even the mercenaries must be colluding with the church!)
So, he took upon himself the burden of destroying these inquisitors, and he managed to catch one already. He tortured the fellow, slowly, excruciatingly, exacting the kind of "justice" that he feels that they were owed, and it changed him. He liked it. He feels righteous and justified now that he's exacted this form of revenge, and he's got several more on his list. However, catching the first one wasn't easy, and he didn't get away with it completely unnoticed, so he had to disappear.
This is a good time for him to go and learn the skills of his profession in order to be better able to enact his revenge. During this time, he learns patience, cunning, the arts of diplomacy to use when needed, bluff when that's called for, and disguise to ensure that when he comes back for the rest.
This lends itself well to both lawful evil (remember, lawful doesn't specifically mean that you obey the law; it means that you follow some sort of code, and the law can be a convenient code, but it doesn't have to be your code) or neutral evil. Personally, I like the lawful evil angle better, because not every form of revenge has to lead to death (at least at your hands). Hell, you could even get one (or more) of the inquisitors to turn on one another and do your work for you.
Monk or sorcerer would work just fine for this, and the devolution of morality could be fun to play (but might potentially shift him over to neutral evil if it conflicts with his "code").
I hope that this was helpful to you.
Best wishes!
Bodhizen, that was extremely helpful, thank you very much! I'll likely wind up using that exact backstory, possibly with a few small tweaks to fit better with the campaign, but thank you very much! ^_^
If you want to play evil you don't have to play some psycho. You could honestly be a nice guy that most people like. Of course those you step on won't like you but even a few of them might like you if you toss them a bone.
To play evil you need to find a focus. What is it you want to accomplish. This doesn't need to be anything fantastic. Maybe you crave power and want to climb the ladder of Nobility. You can easily play the hero while blackmailing people. Use the your heroics to make contacts and build a base of power you control. Make sure to use people, trick them into doing you bidding. Wait for them create the opening, jump in and let them take the heat.
I played a NE Inquisitor of Mask in FR game that did exactly the above. Not only was I there expose priest of Cyric but I was there to take over the entire guild. I didn't stop there though. I controlled all the bandits too in area surrounding the city. Ended up in a guild war between a neighboring cities thieves guild. I was good the people, even hero but my motivation was not heroic. I needed these productive people to keep me making gold. Enemies feared me. Those that opposed me disappeared only to be found latter floating in the moat.
Bodhizen, that was extremely helpful, thank you very much! I'll likely wind up using that exact backstory, possibly with a few small tweaks to fit better with the campaign, but thank you very much! ^_^
You're very welcome. It was intended for you to use, so please feel free.
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My favorite focus for LE is "science" If I ever get to play in Way of the Wicked I would be the quiet guy with spectacles and maxed healing skill. "The paladins just could not understand that in order to fix the machines you first have to know how to destroy them"
I actually had a LE wizard in 1e/2e days with healing skill and access to cure spells. unknown to the rest of the party, the reason why my cure spells were so potent was the blood and biopsies obtained through nightly vivisection of the half vampire and regenerating party member. I had an extra loot share that rather than going to healing supplies as everyone else thought, actually went towards various experiments.