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You need Greater Feint to be able to Sneak Attack through your entire full attack. The earliest a Rogue can get Greater Feint is level 8, and most likely won't see it until level 9. If you dip two levels of Lore Warden you will have plenty of room to acquire the Moonlight Stalker Feint/Greater Feint line by level 9 allowing a Rogue/Fighter to setup a full attack sneak attack without sacrificing his highest iterative attack (using Two-Weapon Feint).
Now if only Paizo would rule that Moonlight Stalker Feint fills the prereq for Greater Feint so one doesn't need to take Improved Feint at all.
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And it is curious how you used a ninja, one of the classes that are sateted to overshadow the rogue.
I wanted wakizashi proficiency and a Ki pool (because I didn't dump CHA); none of those aspects were material to the Goz/obscuring tactic. (Arguably the evasion-forfeiting ninja is suboptimal to straight rogue, depending upon how much your GM's bad guys love dishing out AoE.)
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Now I want to make a halfling ninja that two-weapon fights with a couple of wakizashi. I'd much perfer to do this with a rogue to get evasion, but rogues don't have access to an 18-20 light weapon like ninjas do.
Just use short swords. Note that rogues generally don't accumulate a ton of numeric bonuses to damage, so crits aren't that important.
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Hmm...not sure if anyone has mentioned this...
Eversmoking Bottle (5.4k.) or Horn of Fog (2k)
Lenses, Fogcutting (8k) - face item
Sniper's Goggles (20k) - eye itemUse whatever range weapon you want. Make sneak attacks through the fog since you see through it without a problem.
All attacks are sneak attacks now. It works before the 20k item, but you are limited to a range of 30ft (possibly more if you take Deadly Aim or whatever it is that the Ninja has to increase SA by 10ft each time).
Your party will need to grab the Fogcutting Lenses too, most likely.
Optionally, stand on a Tensor's Floating Disk cast by a caster, so you can move around with him while you make full attacks with your bow/daggers/whatever. One less thing for you to worry about.
Buff up sneak attack however you want.
DM might get annoyed with the 100ft of smoke wherever you go.
It looks like the 'face item' is a misprint as there is no such slot in Pathfinder (Headband, Head, Eye). All other lens type magic items use the 'eye slot' and the item description refers to the lens as goggles so I suspect you cannot use them in conjunction with Sniper's Goggles. At least that is how it would be ruled at my table. It is still a viable tactic for melee Rogues with just the bottle and lens.
Now I want to make a halfling ninja that two-weapon fights with a couple of wakizashi. I'd much perfer to do this with a rogue to get evasion, but rogues don't have access to an 18-20 light weapon like ninjas do.Just use short swords. Note that rogues generally don't accumulate a ton of numeric bonuses to damage, so crits aren't that important.
everyone with shortsword proficiency also automatically has gladius proficiency. like how whip proficiency also grants scorpion whip proficiency.
the gladius, for 5 gold more than a shortsword and 1 lb heavier, deals both slashing and piercing damage, instead of just piercing. it counts as a shortsword for all feats that affect the shortsword, including proficiency. it's a commonly forgotten rogue proficiency for 2WF builds. the only thing it lacks, is the 18-20 crit range.
Yeah, you have to be pretty close, but if you can keep free and invisible/able to sneak, you are rocking.
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This has probably been mentioned but I like the 16 str half orc thug rogue. Take chain fighter instead of the orc weapons and use a heavy flail to sneak attack. Take the feat to add str to intimidate checks, maybe 14 dex, 14 con, put the racial +2 into wis or str (wis for will saves, str for more smack). So long as you can get a sneak attack in you can scare the living daylights out of your opponent... provided they aren't immune to fear.
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Why is everybody fixated on pure rogues. There are archetypes for a reason. As long as you character takes the majority of his levels in rogue or a rogue archetype, it counts as a rogue.
Because always taking an archetype is admitting that the original rogue needed fixing even after Pathfinder was released.
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Why is everybody fixated on pure rogues. There are archetypes for a reason. As long as you character takes the majority of his levels in rogue or a rogue archetype, it counts as a rogue.Because always taking an archetype is admitting that the original rogue needed fixing even after Pathfinder was released.
here's a hint: it does. as it stands it's in a similar boat to the monk (hard to use without sufficient system mastery, not very good at what people think it is, and other, newer options simply work better for the intended task).
and they wont ever change it. period. mostly due to the logistics and PR nightmare that would come from changing the core material and invalidating older purchases of the books (which could be remedied with free updated PDF releases for people who've purchased the books, but that would make sense, which isn't a thing over at paizo).
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im of the opinion that a feinting rogue is where its at if you go to improved feint you can feint as a move action so if you go lets say human rogue and you get improved feint and improved init then what you are doing is giving you a chance to hit in the surprise round of combat(because all good rogue want to hit in the surprise round) and then hit high enough in the combat stage that you can again hit before they react and are thence flat footed but if you feint which at that point is a move action then until that opponent goes down your golden.
However i have come to view the rogue as a 1v1 combatant you want to find that choke point or cut off opponent and take them out.
as far as stats are concerned you would go str,dex,con,cha,int,wis i know some of this is alittle off to the norm but in combat you want to hit and hit hard so that they drop fast so the tank can route to another opponent keeping you safe while also setting up the next flank(just in case your feint fails)
The rogue is and always will be in my mind a teamwork character he is one that has to use another to truly shine and I for one am ok with this.
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As many people will point out, the problem with Improved Feint is that it requires a move action, thus precluding a full attack. This is not really a problem at low levels but once you start getting multiple attacks per round Improved Feint loses its luster.
What is needed, and is being called for in the Slayer play-test discussion, is a consistent means to perform a feint as a swift action or better. Currently we have two ways to do a feint as a swift (Wave Strike, Moonlight Stalker Feint) and one way to do a feint instead of an attack (Two-Weapon Fighting).
With Wave Strike you can feint as a swift action at the start of combat however you can only do this one time per combat. It makes for a great opener but there are better ways to get an opening Sneak Attack. If you could sheath your blade and do Wave Strike each round it would make for a very nice Iaijutsu-type style.
With Moonlight Stalker Feint you can feint as a swift action if you have concealment to your opponent. The feat chain to get to this point is hefty (Combat Expertise, Blind-Fight, Moonlight Stalker, plus Darkvision or Low-light vision, Int 13 and 6 ranks of Bluff). The upside is when you can pull this off you are +2 Atk, +2 Dmg, and have concealment (opponent has 20% miss chance) so you are getting some return on the investment. What would make this even better is if Moonlight Stalker Feint qualified as a prereq for Greater Feint.
With Two-Weapon Feint you get to replace your first attack (at highest BAB) with a feint. The problem here is that as a 3/4 BAB class you are already struggling to connect, compounded by an even lower BAB due to Two-Weapon Fighting. So now you have to give up one of your best hits (low as it is) for a feint. Two-Weapon feint also suffers as it does not qualify as a prereq for Greater Feint.
I haven't read thru the rest of the posts so I apologize now if this build or a similar build has already been posted.
I'm sure that if you start adding crap from all the splatbooks, etc. that this build could be broken even further, but IMO it's pretty solid as is.
Human Spiked Chain Tripper - Pure rogue..Core Rulebook only (plus agile weapon enchant). 20pt buy
Stats: str 7; dex 20; con 10; int 13; wis 10; cha 12 (stat bumps at 4/8/12 and 20 goto dex/16 to cha) also between 15-16 should be able to afford a book +5 dex).
human: combat expertise: only here 'cuz it's a prereq for im. trip
1st: agile manuevers: use dex instead of str for CMB
2nd: combat trick: im. trip: +2 CMB for trips & don't provoke AoO.
this lets you start with a +7 cmb with trip manuevers (+5 dex, +2 trip weapon)that increases to +10 at 2nd lvl.
CBR pp.199 paragraph 2: when you attempt to perform a combat manuever you make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. so instead of the -4 non-proficient penalty you can use your +7 CMB when tripping without being prof in the s. chain. (yes it's chessy, but it's also legal RAW).
3rd: exotic prof s.chain
4th: finesse rogue
this will allow you to actually hit the target when he provokes for standing up after the trip. also sometime between 3-4 you should have enough gold for the agile enchantment on your chain (depending on how closely your DM follows the WBL guidelines). OR if playing with mythic rules, mythic weapon finesse also allows you to add dex to damage rolls.
5th: quick draw
6th: minor magic: any (i normally take ghost sound)
7th: acane strike
8th: g. trip: +2 trip & opponent provokes when tripped AND when he stands back up.
9th: weapon training: weapon focus - s.chain.
these lvls are for increasing damage potential.
from here there's several different routes to go: combat reflexes and lunge are good continuing points, and i'm kind of partial to the vital strike chain. you could also start boosting either bluff (for improved/greater feint) or intimidate (for dazzling display/shatter defenses). so many options. not to mention the rogues absolute best friend...UMD.
Granted, a fighter(with 1 arcane caster lvl) or a bard can do this exact same build with a better chance to hit. However, neither of them gets the extra sneak attack damage against the target which evens things out in my view.
I haven't read thru the rest of the posts so I apologize now if this build or a similar build has already been posted.
I'm sure that if you start adding crap from all the splatbooks, etc. that this build could be broken even further, but IMO it's pretty solid as is.Human Spiked Chain Tripper - Pure rogue..Core Rulebook only (plus agile weapon enchant). 20pt buy
Stats: str 7; dex 20; con 10; int 13; wis 10; cha 12 (stat bumps at 4/8/12 and 20 goto dex/16 to cha) also between 15-16 should be able to afford a book +5 dex).
human: combat expertise: only here 'cuz it's a prereq for im. trip
1st: agile manuevers: use dex instead of str for CMB
2nd: combat trick: im. trip: +2 CMB for trips & don't provoke AoO.this lets you start with a +7 cmb with trip manuevers (+5 dex, +2 trip weapon)that increases to +10 at 2nd lvl.
CBR pp.199 paragraph 2: when you attempt to perform a combat manuever you make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. so instead of the -4 non-proficient penalty you can use your +7 CMB when tripping without being prof in the s. chain. (yes it's chessy, but it's also legal RAW).
3rd: exotic prof s.chain
4th: finesse roguethis will allow you to actually hit the target when he provokes for standing up after the trip. also sometime between 3-4 you should have enough gold for the agile enchantment on your chain (depending on how closely your DM follows the WBL guidelines). OR if playing with mythic rules, mythic weapon finesse also allows you to add dex to damage rolls.
5th: quick draw
6th: minor magic: any (i normally take ghost sound)
7th: acane strike
8th: g. trip: +2 trip & opponent provokes when tripped AND when he stands back up.
9th: weapon training: weapon focus - s.chain.these lvls are for increasing damage potential.
from here there's several different routes to go: combat reflexes and lunge are good continuing points, and i'm kind of partial to the vital strike chain. you could also start boosting either bluff...
I love trip builds, but let me ask, wouldn't this build be better accomplished by a fighter/ranger/alchemist/bard/barbarian/paladin/monk? I just don't see what the rogue brings to the table that these characters can't do more reliably.
You need Greater Feint to be able to Sneak Attack through your entire full attack.
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Two-Weapon feint also suffers as it does not qualify as a prereq for Greater Feint.
With Improved Two-Weapon Feint, you don't really need Greater Feint if you want to have a solid attack sequence on your own. Greater Feint helps others and works well with things like Opportunist, though, because the effect lasts beyond the end of the user's turn. So there is a trade-off there.
Improved Two-Weapon Feint (Combat)
Your primary weapon keeps a foe off balance, allowing you to slip your off-hand weapon past his defenses.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee attacks, you can forgo your first primary-hand melee attack to make a Bluff check to feint an opponent. If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.
-Matt
I love trip builds, but let me ask, wouldn't this build be better accomplished by a fighter/ranger/alchemist/bard/barbarian/paladin/monk? I just don't see what the rogue brings to the table that these characters can't do more reliably.
As with many, many things, once you get your modifier high enough, it doesn't matter which class your PC is. They can all trip on a 2.
-Matt
Ninja are definitely better than Rogues. At 10th level they can get Greater Invisibility. And this lasts for 1 round/level. They also get Mirror Image.
If they want they can pick up Evasion and Improved Evasion here, though it takes 2 Ninja Tricks.
Overall the Ninja is just a better class. But this thread is about making the Rogue worthwhile so...
As I posted earlier in this thread, the choice of Ninja vs. Rogue is more nuanced than "Ninja is just better."
-Matt
Nice build. Can't take Dervish Dance at level 2, though.Pardon the doublepost, but i've a build thrown together:
I saw the horizon walker thread earlier today and thought, "why not?". So here's a "stealth beyond stealth" rogue/horizon walker who does lots of roguey things (sneaks around, spots traps, stabs things, woos the ladies) and can flank with himself eventually.
** spoiler omitted **..."Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar."
seems i can with combat trick.
actually wait i need to tweak that build a bit, since rogues dont get scimitar proficiency.
A Swashbuckler Rogue can make this happen at level 2. He can receive scimitar proficiency at 1st as his replacement for Trapfinding, then take Combat Trick for Dervish Dance at level 2.
-Matt, am I all caught up?
Like Nicos, I highly doubt that a decent TWF dirty trick rogue would work. You're starting at a 3/4 BAB, and it doesn't even come online until level 8 (+6 bab minimum).
Feats:
- Combat expertise (required, and means you need 13 intelligence)
- improved dirty trick (needed, but as a standard action not that great)
- quick dirty trick (now you can do it instead of an attack, but you'll have a hard time reaching the cmb)
- agile maneuvers (needed if you want to use dex, which you probably will if you're twf)
- greater dirty trick (the extra +2 is needed, and makes it last longer which is nice)This just seems way to feat intensive instead of just using two weapon feint.
Is it a cool concept, yes. But I just don't see it being reliable.
A Maneuver Master Monk1-2/RogueX can make this work pretty quickly, certainly before Level 8. The only necessary feats become Improved Dirty Trick (Maneuver Master bypasses the need for Combat Expertise), and Agile Maneuvers if you're going the high-Dex-low-Str route.
Heck, it might even be possible to get around needing Improved Dirty Trick, if you have a way to dealing with the AOs (invisibility, Crane Wing, etc).
-Matt
im of the opinion that a feinting rogue is where its at if you go to improved feint you can feint as a move action...
A method that seems to work really well is to take Combat Expertise and leverage it as much as you can with multiple feats that require it, such as Gang Up, Improved maneuver feats, and a feint chain later. Retraining really helps with this, as a character can rely on something like Improved Feint or Gang Up early, then swap into something that is more reliable and requires BAB +6 later, like Improved Two-Weapon Feint.
Just give your character multiple ways to secure sneak attacks, and you're all set.
-Matt still owes a post to TOZ...
Matt, in what ways do you feel the rogue is better than the ninja? I've got a PFS ninja right now with 2 scenarios under his belt that I'm considering re-optimizing and I can't decide between halfling/human and rogue/ninja. The only thing I see ninja losing that is of any importance is evasion.
I broke it down on Page 4 of this thread.
One thing I did not mention yet, though, is that a Rogue with a decent Wisdom score and a ring of ki mastery can do well with the Ki Pool talent.
Something tells me this thread has gotten a little bloated.
-Matt
Well I've all but abandoned working on keeping things consolidated due to many other thigns dragging my attention away so I mostly pay attention just to keep things on track and away from a "rogues do/do not suck" thread as that's not helpful to anyone who decides to paly one.
So if anyone wants to consolidate builds and put up the collected knowledge in a more digestable form I encourage it greatly. I simply don't have the time to do it though.
Yeah, too many posts for me to find that particular one. Ok, so you've convinced me to go rogue. Now I just need to figure everything else out. Against all of my better judgement, I am wanting to go two-weapon fighting with a couple of daggers and maybe the River Rat trait.
Speaking of, I haven't had time to do an analysis of Two-Weapon Fighting in PFS. Here are some bullet-points...
-Don't do agile on the off-hand weapon, because the Dex-to-damage it enjoys is halved.
-Menacing on the off-hand is better, because it can pull double-duty.
-Two-Weapon Fighting in PFS, due to the expense of having to buy two weapons, can quickly become a trap if you don't have haste or blessing of fervor in your usual tables.
-If you don't have a reliable source of haste or blessing of fervor in your usual tables, then aim for boots of speed before focusing on your offhand weapon.
-Matt
As many people will point out, the problem with Improved Feint is that it requires a move action, thus precluding a full attack. This is not really a problem at low levels but once you start getting multiple attacks per round Improved Feint loses its luster.
What is needed, and is being called for in the Slayer play-test discussion, is a consistent means to perform a feint as a swift action or better. Currently we have two ways to do a feint as a swift (Wave Strike, Moonlight Stalker Feint) and one way to do a feint instead of an attack (Two-Weapon Fighting).
With Wave Strike you can feint as a swift action at the start of combat however you can only do this one time per combat. It makes for a great opener but there are better ways to get an opening Sneak Attack. If you could sheath your blade and do Wave Strike each round it would make for a very nice Iaijutsu-type style.
With Moonlight Stalker Feint you can feint as a swift action if you have concealment to your opponent. The feat chain to get to this point is hefty (Combat Expertise, Blind-Fight, Moonlight Stalker, plus Darkvision or Low-light vision, Int 13 and 6 ranks of Bluff). The upside is when you can pull this off you are +2 Atk, +2 Dmg, and have concealment (opponent has 20% miss chance) so you are getting some return on the investment. What would make this even better is if Moonlight Stalker Feint qualified as a prereq for Greater Feint.
With Two-Weapon Feint you get to replace your first attack (at highest BAB) with a feint. The problem here is that as a 3/4 BAB class you are already struggling to connect, compounded by an even lower BAB due to Two-Weapon Fighting. So now you have to give up one of your best hits (low as it is) for a feint. Two-Weapon feint also suffers as it does not qualify as a prereq for Greater Feint.
My rogues can kill the monsters, and occasionally the players, without needing a full round attack. Why is there such desperation for full round attacks? Look to the orc rogue above with the heavy flail, they did not require a full round to hit, hurt and scare. The ginzu twf rogue is a possibility, but why the requirement that rogues have to full round attack with sneak? If the damage can kill the monsters without it, and contribute in a coop game, full round fixation is pointless.
Better to focus on the set ups allowing the sneak attack, and to use those, than worry I didn't get to throw 20d6+ this round.
So the combat lasts another round, or the monsters have hp left for other players to remove so that they can shine. Is it such a big deal?
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So the combat lasts another round, or the monsters have hp left for other players to remove so that they can shine. Is it such a big deal?
If the difference between a dead PC and a victorious group is one HP left on the monster than yes, yes it is a big deal.
The point of damage isn't to deal damage, it's to end the fight. If the damage you're dealing isn't enough to end the fight quickly before you are hurt too badly to continue or ends up blowing more resources than is proportionate to the encounter than you're not fulfilling your function in combat. Individual shine has nothing to do with a successful group.
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My rogues can kill the monsters, and occasionally the players, without needing a full round attack. Why is there such desperation for full round attacks? Look to the orc rogue above with the heavy flail, they did not require a full round to hit, hurt and scare. The ginzu twf rogue is a possibility, but why the requirement that rogues have to full round attack with sneak? If the damage can kill the monsters without it, and contribute in a coop game, full round fixation is pointless.
There is no requirement to use a full attack, nor did i ever suggest there was such a requirement. There is also no requirement to use a weapon, one could just as easily use a feather to attack. There is also no requirement to attack, one could just sit back and use Diplomacy for every encounter. Do what you want, how you want. I am simply pointing out for those who wish to optimize around a feinting Rogue how to get the most from the feats available. If you don't want to do a full attack that is fine, it makes the build so much easier as you only need two feats to feint (Combat Expertise and Improved Feint). Heck you don't even need any feats to feint, use a standard action to feint, then a single attack the next round, rinse/repeat.
Better to focus on the set ups allowing the sneak attack, and to use those, than worry I didn't get to throw 20d6+ this round.
The whole point of my post above was to show how to setup a feint as a swift action using the available feats. Using the Moonlight Stalker Feint chain to full advantage requires a serious investment. Woe be it to me if I suggest taking Greater Feint in order to get your Sneak Attack damage for the entire round (which is the whole purpose of trying to feint as a swift action).
So the combat lasts another round, or the monsters have hp left for other players to remove so that they can shine. Is it such a big deal?
No, it isn't a big deal yet for some reason you seem to be trying to make it into one. The whole point of this thread is how to make Rogues more viable and on par with other classes. I am simply showing one way that it can be done.
What he said. I've played in a campaign where blowing a trap is often a one shot kill. People very much care about rogues in that one.No, they care about people that can deal with traps, be it a rogue or not.
Yep. Seeker Oracle/Sorcerer, Urban Ranger, Archeologist all perform better than the Rogue in that regard. And then they perform better than the Rogue in a ton of other regards.
I've noticed a lot of talk about Ninjas in the thread. This thread was created to make the Base Rogue work. Ninjas are pretty much just being used as comparisons.
We know the ninja works. The goal of the thread was to make a Rogue who can perform admirably in combat in such a way that isn't completely inferior to another class.
So the combat lasts another round, or the monsters have hp left for other players to remove so that they can shine. Is it such a big deal?If the difference between a dead PC and a victorious group is one HP left on the monster than yes, yes it is a big deal.
The point of damage isn't to deal damage, it's to end the fight. If the damage you're dealing isn't enough to end the fight quickly before you are hurt too badly to continue or ends up blowing more resources than is proportionate to the encounter than you're not fulfilling your function in combat. Individual shine has nothing to do with a successful group.
Ganking by pumping out as much damage as possible isn't the only way to wage or end a fight in pathfinder. You can leave the damage worship whenever you want, there are help groups of gamers where maximizing damage isn't the supreme command.
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The trap that blows everyone up IS the problem. Because the way that works is that all of the other characters stand around, and the rogue gets to deal with the trap.
Anything that locks out most of the players at the table is un-fun, in my opinion. We need something like the encounter traps that showed up at the very end of 3.5, where everyone can participate to some extent.
Imagine if combat worked this way. "I, the fighter, shall deal with this foe. Please stand near the wall until I am finished."
If that's ridiculous, then traps are ridiculous too, at least as they've been used in the past.
Which means that the role of trap finder is problematic. It's not an even share of the work, and certainly not equivalent to, say, healer. It's closer to "Party member who has ranks in Knowledge (history). Helpful sometimes, yes. But that better not be your whole contribution.
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Ganking by pumping out as much damage as possible isn't the only way to wage or end a fight in pathfinder.
Yes, you can also use SOD's, debuff an enemy to where the actual amount of damage becomes meaningless, or force an enemy to surrender through some odd roleplaying means that's outside the realm of mechanics and ultimately useless to many players here as there gm's don't play that way. You can also play support to help your groups damage dealers and debuffers.
However given the first two options are unavailable to rogues by any reliably consistent means and you're hardly a combat support class guess where that leaves us? Rogues are a damage dealing class, they may not be a frontliner but they are expected to deal damage, harping on people for wanting to be the best damage dealer possible is silly. We're not here to accept mediocrity. We're not here to tell people that their low attack numbers are okay for the dice gods bless the meek. We're here to make this quite derided class into something desirable.
Beyond this though I'm dropping the argument as your statements in this have neither been helpful nor amusing.
You forgot quick dirty trick. Besides, is the CMB really good? or, does you need to sacrifice to much in AC, saves, hit points to make this trick workable?
Did I miss something? A Maneuver Master doesn't need Quick Dirty Trick, am I correct?
If you stack on attack modifiers, all of which apply to CMB, and also stack on the following CMB modifiers, you can get your CMB pretty high..
-Improved (Maneuver) feat for +2
-Greater (Maneuver) feat for another +2 later
-Gauntlets of the skilled maneuver: +2 to a maneuver, 4K
-Dusty rose prism slotted in a wayfinder: +2 to CMB, 5500gp
The +6-+8 from that list alone can make your CMB sufficient, and they're very cheap for what they do.
-Matt
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Sadly, I feel that trapfinder is used as justification for the other things the rogue does NOT get. Like a second good save, or full BAB, or more hit points.
Ultimately, I feel as though this thread is trying to transmute lead into gold. Some of the efforts have been rather shiny, but ultimately, you've got shiny lead.
I understand that others have a different opinion, you're welcome to it. But I don't understand why you assume it is possible to make the rogue work. It's like trying to prove that 3 = 5.
As a thought experiment, try borrowing a page from mathematics. Try to prove the opposite. If you fail, then the original idea is true.
I suspect it's easy to show that investigator, urban ranger, bard, or alchemist does a better job at rogue things than the rogue does. Which means that this isn't possible, no matter what you do.
Just like above, 3 is less than five, and the only way to make them equal is to add something to one side.