Goblin Squad Member
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...what can I expect to be "up sold" on?I can guess it'll be simple convenience items, low-powered disposable consumables, and training time for your next N characters.
Yeah, I did read that in his earlier post, I'm just trying to suss out if I should *expect* to pay money above and beyond my sub to get access to content, or if it's only (primarily is rather vague) small things that can effectively speed time up. One is financially viable for me, the other is a larger pill to swallow.
Thank you Ryan for taking your time to answer questions and quell the riots. Hats and dance moves are exactly what I was hoping to hear. In regards to the elder gods aligning the stars in favor of Abadar, I hope that your subscription base is so strong you don't need to rely on MTX to publish PVE dungeons.
Maybe even content creation tools, though I must admit my ignorance in how difficult that would be to implement. Maybe a workflow where players make content, it's beta tested by players who would like to and then finally polished and implemented by your team?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You were also there and saw exactly what happened when CCP wanted to introduce the NEX shop. Massive subscription cancellations...I don't know why this misinformation persists. I left CCP in November of 2010. There was no plan for the Arum store when I left that I was aware of. There wasn't even a thing called Arum when I left; the concept was still known internally as "microPLEX". I had no part in the decisions or implementation of EVE's cash shop.
This link shows you the stats on account creation and peak concurrent users for Tranquility, EVE's primary server. From looking at this chart, can you detect when the chaos around EVE's cash shop occurred? And can you identify the effects it had on subscriptions?
Here's a hint. The last big surge in PCU before the flatline is the release of Apocrypha in March 2009. EVE's "monoclegate" was in July of 2011.
You also know that any cash shop will not stop RMT in any way. It will just be cheaper to buy from the RMT people.PLEX dealt a mortal blow to RMT for ISK. Since ISK can be used to buy everything in the game, there is virtually no market left for RMT for items. It was a massive blow to the RMT parasites sucking on EVE's community. Their rapid liquidation of their holdings and exit from the business was obvious virtually from the first release of PLEX, and I have no reason to doubt it continued after I left and continues to this day. Buying ISK from RMT resellers today is a suicide purchase, in my opinion.
I apologize as I thought you were there during Monoclegate... But nothing in the link you provided shows the number of subscriptions. It only shows players logged in and new accounts added.
I agree PLEX dealt a mortal blow, so stick with it and trow out the other trash.
BTW that was not misinformation in the least bit. When monoclegate went off, the CEO sent out a mass apology to get people back to the game...
It should be noted that except for Neverwinter, the major western MMOs that have added Microtransactions did so after their basic subscription models failed. The MTX switch was a response to revenue falling below the level needed to hit the financial goals of the business. They were, in a sense, a last ditch effort to save a failed business.
Now those games may overemphasize Microtransactins because subscriptions failed. They're trying to back-fill a business model designed for subs with revenue from the cash store. These games are seeing "traditional" MTX performance. Those metrics are Weill known: eight to ten percent of the players spend any money. When you are only getting 10% of your customers to pay you! you need to get ten times as much money from each of them to make up for all the non-paying players. Obviously, you'll feel like you're in an environment that rapidly shifts to cater to the 10% who are paying to the detriment of those who aren't.
The solution? Have a much, much higher percentage of people pay. Collect a much much smaller amount of money from those who pay.
So, that's what we'll do.
Subscriptions did not fail, the games failed.... Look at your own old blogs, release the same garbage and people leave... Its been game after game... The games made money because they could go free to play and get people to spend a little here and there.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The games failed as businesses because people finished them. That's different than failing because they weren't fun to play or engaging or interesting to a large number of customers. Adding MTX to those games means that from a smaller number of repeat customers who have stayed after finishing, a large amount of revenue can be extracted from a percentage of the people who stay. That potentially restores a business rationale to operating the game service, which is a separate and distinct value from "was the game a good game design".
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Goblin Squad Member
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What does a subscription suggest or mean to you as the CEO of a company coming out with an MMO?I think that like most sandboxes, we'll have an average age of 30+. And I think those people have credit cards and are used to and comfortable with automatically billed recurring charges. Subscriptions are a convenience for these people, so as customer serivce, I want to offer them.
Like other subscriptions that they pay for, like cable TV, cell phones, fitness centers, etc., I believe these people are unfazed by the idea that "subscription" doesn't mean "unlimited value". They're used to PayPerView. They're used to roaming and excessive data charges. They're used to paying for Pilates classes.
Wow just wow... So people have credit cards that you can get some of...
Subscriptions are not a convenience, you pay for monthly access to the game and expect to have access to the game.
Cable TV, Cell Phones and etc... People who pay these like subscription are morons. People who do not look at their bills deserve to get ripped off and will.
Try to think more of your players then as morons
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Goblin Squad Member
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The games failed as businesses because people finished them. That's different than failing because they weren't fun to play or engaging or interesting to a large number of customers. Adding MTX to those games means that from a smaller number of repeat customers who have stayed after finishing, a large amount of revenue can be extracted from a percentage of the people who stay. That potentially restores a business rationale to operating the game service, which is a separate and distinct value from "was the game a good game design".
Exactly, so MTX works for those games... Plan to have PFO be finished by anyone?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I exercise in my house.
Edit: but your question deserves a response, the second edit will contain it.
Edit 2: Food: Your there to exercise, why are you eating? Personal Trainer: You should pay extra as you are getting 1 on 1 time with someone to teach you. Classes: those should be part of the membership.
My guess is I hit a nerve, I apologize for that.. but it kinda pissed me off that you expect everyone to be lazy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are you a Pathfinder subscriber? Do you think you should get everything with a Pathfinder logo on it for that subscription? Are people who buy Pathfinder products ala carte beyond their subscriptions "morons"?
Subscriber to what? If I buy books then I go to my local game shop to buy them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What does a subscription suggest or mean to you as the CEO of a company coming out with an MMO?I think that like most sandboxes, we'll have an average age of 30+. And I think those people have credit cards and are used to and comfortable with automatically billed recurring charges. Subscriptions are a convenience for these people, so as customer serivce, I want to offer them.
Like other subscriptions that they pay for, like cable TV, cell phones, fitness centers, etc., I believe these people are unfazed by the idea that "subscription" doesn't mean "unlimited value". They're used to PayPerView. They're used to roaming and excessive data charges. They're used to paying for Pilates classes.
I believe the majority are unfazed, though at 29 I grew up to experience Unlimited Hours Per Month internet bills as well as Unlimited Texts, Email, and Data with nationwide coverage on my cell phone. Netflix provides me unlimited streaming. I've never watched PayPerView in my life, at least not to my knowledge. For me, the addition of bandwidth caps by ISPs and the end of Unlimited Data plans on smart phones are new. I have only ever had to pay in once to buy a game, or upkeep a single monthly payment to enjoy the Full Experience of games. It is only in recent years that MTX model has been growing prominent.
Upon reflection, my ire has probably been the build up of a feeling that 'the good times' for my consumer habits are behind me. Convenience and value per dollar are shrinking in industries all around me. But none has stricken me so strongly as that which has occurred in the gaming market. And a lot of my friends feel the same way, so I end up in an echo chamber.
To be fair, it is natural. The value of a dollar today is much less than it was even 10 years ago, but the price of these subscriptions has been the same. The work being done by those providing the services does not reduce in value like the dollar does. To expect to pay the same amount now as one did 10 years ago is expecting these people to earn less for the same work.
My solution would be to pay $18/month or $20/month and retain the "unlimited value". But I am in the minority and I understand that. I just wanted to state that I am concerned by the direction of the behavior. I have never been surveyed. My voice is not part of any of those market analysis about consumer desires. So I had to make it heard here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen voiced a concern way up thread which I think is a reasonable thing to worry about.
If your health club becomes so interested, due to its admittedly great income from these additions, in stocking new and exotic juices and health supplements at the bar and having a wide range of sports clothes on offer in its shop that it no longer spends money on maintaining and keeping the gym equipment up to date, then it is failing as a health club, even if it is succeeding as a business, and anyone who has bought a membership would have a right to complain.
I think it's the perception of going after the "whales" at the expense of the subscribers that is causing a lot of the disquiet, not the idea of MTX in addition to a sub as such. As long as this is not true of PfO (and I don't believe it will be), then everything will be fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen voiced a concern way up thread which I think is a reasonable thing to worry about.
If your health club becomes so interested, due to its admittedly great income from these additions, in stocking new and exotic juices and health supplements at the bar and having a wide range of sports clothes on offer in its shop that it no longer spends money on maintaining and keeping the gym equipment up to date, then it is failing as a health club, even if it is succeeding as a business, and anyone who has bought a membership would have a right to complain.
As long as the same is not true of PfO (and I don't believe it will be), then everything will be fine.I thinbk it's the perception of going after the "whales" at the expense of the subscribers that is causing a lot of the disquiet, not the idea of MTX in addition to a sub as such.
Ryan tried to address this point. I think he fell off of it at 'dungeon modules' way down the line, but it is too early to make that call.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Are you a Pathfinder subscriber? Do you think you should get everything with a Pathfinder logo on it for that subscription? Are people who buy Pathfinder products ala carte beyond their subscriptions "morons"?
I think it's natural to expect a full service in a MMO with a sub.
BUT, we have to accept the reality of the market, which is that MTX are a necessity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is Paizo's basic subscription plan for Pathfinder.
So they ship you new books at cost when released?
I wouldnt call subscribers of this morons, but lazy... Even though they are still taking a risk of getting burned.
The large tv and phone companies have proven their greed and capacity to rip you off and have no qualms about it. So I will stick to my statement that if you let those companies just take money from your account then you are probably a moron. And I mean you as in general... I did it, got burned and learned from my mistake.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan tried to address this point. I think he fell off of it at 'dungeon modules' way down the line, but it is too early to make that call.Xeen voiced a concern way up thread which I think is a reasonable thing to worry about.
If your health club becomes so interested, due to its admittedly great income from these additions, in stocking new and exotic juices and health supplements at the bar and having a wide range of sports clothes on offer in its shop that it no longer spends money on maintaining and keeping the gym equipment up to date, then it is failing as a health club, even if it is succeeding as a business, and anyone who has bought a membership would have a right to complain.
As long as the same is not true of PfO (and I don't believe it will be), then everything will be fine.I thinbk it's the perception of going after the "whales" at the expense of the subscribers that is causing a lot of the disquiet, not the idea of MTX in addition to a sub as such.
I must have missed it. I have seen him address the point before. It does keep coming back to bite him though, and it will till there are concrete answers, which he is in no position to give atm. He can't win.
The thing is, GW has an incredibly hard juggling act to do, both to keep its customer base happy, and essentially extract as much cash as it can from them at the same time. It is a business after all. However, in such cases perception is important - nobody in EvE was harmed by a monocle that cost $70 but look at the disproportionate outrage it caused. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to rename the subscription as something else and try to break people's pre-conceptions that way.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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With regard to dungeon modules: we have the idea that in the distant future our tools may have evolved to the place where 3rd parties can develop content for the game. In that distant future it is possible that we'll have a "Dungeon Store" like the App Store where we sell your content to our customers and split the revenue with you.
In the distant, distant future.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan tried to address this point. I think he fell off of it at 'dungeon modules' way down the line, but it is too early to make that call.Xeen voiced a concern way up thread which I think is a reasonable thing to worry about.
If your health club becomes so interested, due to its admittedly great income from these additions, in stocking new and exotic juices and health supplements at the bar and having a wide range of sports clothes on offer in its shop that it no longer spends money on maintaining and keeping the gym equipment up to date, then it is failing as a health club, even if it is succeeding as a business, and anyone who has bought a membership would have a right to complain.
As long as the same is not true of PfO (and I don't believe it will be), then everything will be fine.I thinbk it's the perception of going after the "whales" at the expense of the subscribers that is causing a lot of the disquiet, not the idea of MTX in addition to a sub as such.
I must have missed it. I have seen him address the point before. It does keep coming back to bite him though, and it will till there are concrete answers, which he is in no position to give atm. He can't win.
The thing is, GW has an incredibly hard juggling act to do, both to keep its customer base happy, and essentially extract as much cash as it can from them at the same time. It is a business after all. However, in such cases perception is important - nobody in EvE was harmed by a monocle that cost $70 but look at the disproportionate outrage it caused. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to rename the subscription as something else and try to break people's pre-conceptions that way.
The renaming of subscription could be a highly effective tactic. Paizo's programs call themselves subscriptions, but really they are auto-purchase programs in my eyes. Whether true to the original definition or not, Subscription has baggage on it now. People view it more as the DDI subscription for WotC 4th edition, where one sub gave you all the 'magazine' content AND digital tools. You didn't pay extra for the character builder.
I think we also have a scoping issue. When Ryan thinks about subscribing to PFO, he thinks of subscribing to Cable TV. I may be incorrect, but I think when Xeen thinks about subscribing to PFO he thinks about subscribing to a single channel such as HBO. He can tune into HBO any time. He sees everything that channel is pushing out. Subscribing to HBO2 (or whatever they have) is not equal to an MTX, it is like getting a second character to play. Or subscribing to an entirely different game. To subscribe to HBO and being told you can watch from 12 AM to 11 PM everyday, but 11 to 12 is going to cost you an extra $1 per day you do it no longer resembles a subscription to us.
Membership may be a better term? People do not have subscriptions to fitness centers, they have memberships. Or at least that is the term over here in the eastern time zone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With regard to dungeon modules: we have the idea that in the distant future our tools may have evolved to the place where 3rd parties can develop content for the game. In that distant future it is possible that we'll have a "Dungeon Store" like the App Store where we sell your content to our customers and split the revenue with you.
In the distant, distant future.
Awesome. You may be aware Shroud of the Avatar have been constructing dungeon design kits and published videos showing some of the results, and they are pre-alpha. The results don't look too bad at all. Presumably Goblinworks ought to be able to achieve something similar.
I'd be keen to see this feature added asap. I assume that until then much PVE content will be limited to wandering monsters and incursions.https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=31128#more-31128
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm getting them patented. :)Hats.But only Hobs can have the green ones. We'll need that carved in stone at a major crossroads somewhere.
"Psst..." ::motions for customer to enter alley:: "Got some green hats from [enter PFO version of China]. One box, 10 hats, will only cost ya 10 gold."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everyone that has a concern cash shops could ruin the game,
Goblinworks must make enough money to pay for maintenance of the game, new tools and toolkits for players to create new and exciting content, update their equipment, pay payrolls (usually at least a third of all company expense is in personnel and HR, benefits, training, legal..) real estate, taxes, advertising, 401k plans, travel (going to these meeting and conventions is not free either). It is an expensive proposition to operate a business, so at a minimum Goblinworks and Paizo must make enough to pay all their bills and their people so they can continue into the next month (and if there isn't at least a little left over, they aren't charging enough).
So to create that "leftover amount" (let's call that "profit and operating capital") all the extra shinies people might want to buy that are available in addition to a subscription fee make that profit happen. I think none of us can fault Ryan for wanting to make enough money to pay for all of the above, and even get some extra profit for the risks associated with this venture. I'm willing to see what happens. I'll buy some stuff in the cash shop (bought mounts and in-game items in WoW, classes in Rift) and would love for there to be a dungeon creation tool to I can find an outlet for my creativity.
Don't get upset yet and bail. Let's see what happens, but expect that Goblinworks will have to try some different techniques to get the formula right and some of those changes might seem like they are not working. Give it time. I think we all make a pretty good game forum community. Be ready for our voices to be swallowed by the sea once Open Enrollment begins, but the "Goblin Squad" icon will be visible on the ocean's surface when comments are posted, and maybe that will show up as someone that has been afloat for a long while and deserves an little extra attention.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Text deletedPerhaps we're just very disconnected.
99% of what players will craft will not be sold in the cash shop. Nothing sold in the cash shop will be meaningfully better than things crafted by characters. Nothing in the cash shop will represent advanced crafted items; we're talking about selling simple convenience items and low-powered disposable consumables.
As we've said before, most of the things sold in the cash store will be cosmetic, not mechanical.
I don't know how to be more clear. The cash store is not a substitute for the player economy.
First of all Ryan, whenever you engage with us this closely in a discussion, you deserve thanks! :)
I am not fond of the whole cash shop thing. When I look deep within my reasons, it is because I am jealously protecting the gatherer/crafter/merchant that I want to play in PfO. The quoted post is an acceptable compromise, for my selfish fears. You have spelled it out before, but perhaps not as succinctly or all in one post. (Unless memory fails me)
Bottom line is: a healthy Bottom Line will be better for All of us that want the game to succeed.
Do what you have to do, but Keep the Vision as Pure as You Can, plz
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thinking for one instant that GW will not make good money from Subscriptions alone is nonsense.
See upthread, where Ryan writes about the many recent MMO's that had to switch from subscription only to MTX because subscription wasn't paying the bills. I think it a safe assumption that every game that's gone MTX hasn't done so out of simple greed; they weren't making enough with their subscription model, and it was failing so hard that they had to do a radical and abrupt switch post-launch which further hurt them in the long run. But every one of them weighed the risk and potential losses of switching to MTX versus staying subscription only, and decided the risk of switching was worth it because the sub-only numbers were low enough to merit that risk (otherwise they obviously wouldn't have done it). That's why we now have cash shops everywhere, a fact many gamers see as unfortunate, myself included, but a fact of the current MMO scene nevertheless.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it a safe assumption that every game that's gone MTX hasn't done so out of simple greed; they weren't making enough with their subscription model, and it was failing so hard that they had to do a radical and abrupt switch post-launch which further hurt them in the long run.
Shane, You are making the assumption that a company that wants to stay in business and pay its employees a decent wage, and allow the people taking the risks and getting paid for it the same as a company that is charging five times what it should to cover the bills. The first is not greed; that's reality. If you have ever run a business (I have) you need to charge enough to make the business work. Doing less is foolish. If you want to play PFO, expect a cash shop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Quick summary of F2P use I've noticed:
1) Asian Cr*p: Some F2P mmos from the East are pure catch as many consumers wanting to waste their time as possible and exploit the weirdos who spend more than others to be able to win. The vast majority of F2P trash mmos are these by number of titles.
2) Race To The Bottom: Some mmos have converted to F2P models as a sort of race to the bottom and initially that strategy being the first to do so with an adequate game would see huge profits and make the others follow suit (they have to compete and they think they're in on the mega-bucks too). But it does not last as each F2P attempts to maximize the model of player engagement early on and retention long enough that the chances they spend something (anything!!!) occurs. That leads to a trashier game over time.
3) Limited Gameplay + FP2 Bloat: Some mmos have a sub design model but realize they can make more money with MTX or providing more means for different people to spend money. And overall it is more successful for profits and more market is tapped. Overall what I've seen of this in themepark games or at least comments is that the community seems to die off: Whether that's F2P or the finite nature of the games can't tell. Probably a bit of both? But if you're making a mmorpg you have to tap as much as possible is sort of unquestionable. Unless you have something unique that others have not made or cannot compete with.
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This was actually what I wanted to say, the above was just showing where F2P is at.
It does not matter so much the monetization model as much as if your mmorpg has an interesting progression system from the pov of the player.
When you play a mmorpg the more you play the more complex the game should become (decisions) and the more options you should have (experiences) and the more connections you should make (to people). That is how I see a big game (many players) to be played for a long time (years to decades even).
Then if you enjoy these things and they are not destroyed by some griefers or hackers or RMT3 exploiters or the devs don't nickel and dime you with a pay gate or a time sink - you'd probably be happy paying a sub. Most mmorpgs have the same bs progression xp to nothing game play based around combat-quest-progression so the devs have to monetize aggressively.
So what I'm saying as far as I can make head or tail of this discussion is that yes the devs should MTX - but it should be stuff players want IN ADDITION to the main game OR as fractions of the main sub and never as competing with the main game.
ie Standard Sub = X
sub-Sub = Fractions of X = MTX optionts to pay for the game.
Super-Sub = + Y (eg dungeon builder etc, side-game even)
Then the argument is what are the ZTX options eg convenience potions stuff (that I am skeptical how it can be done right?) that could be bought that influences the in-game economy. IE anything that makes players think: Hell if I buy this I am more able to kick-ass.
Maybe "ZTX" will take off?!
So I think:
X = fine
MTX = fine
+Y = fine
ZTX = ? = P2W.
I don't buy the argument put forward that Cost of X == X + MTX + Y. X == X!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Apart from the P2W argument against MTX.
The other problem is this, which I think Xeen is concerned about:
If my sub X = 15$/m
Cumulative cost per month = 15 * M = T(d) (total to date)
So the bigger T(d) becomes, the smaller the % of that that I feel in the present warrants paying for the game (this is true by default of stopping skill-training in any case but it's also true fundamentally I think as well) and the more I feel that T(d) warrants investing into growing the game world.
Equally other sub'ers of the game see this, they see that as evidence to continue playing which itself becomes evidence for playing because all your friends/associates are playing!
I'm making this up as I go along, but it's been my way of trying to think how it works (and how it might work with EVE at this present time, also).
I mean half the payment is to progress your character, in PFO your settlement (which is a big part of the world (social and operational) but also how you progress the entire game itself.
There's nothing like server-merges (network consolidation rofl) to give that whiff of decay / stench of dying by contrast.
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edit: As before I don't agree with the notion a sub is an "all you can eat." A sub (calling it X) =
1. access to game world 24/7
2. unlimited POSSIBILITY to progress how you want with a character (perhaps a couple of slots).
If you have a lot of features and great game, you can charge players a sub fee; the industry standard (colluded) is about 15$/m or so.