Goblin Squad Member
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Wanting everything in the game for only the basic subscription which has been clearly described as including only training and some non-specified perks is wanting something for nothing. Not just wanting, demanding. Pretending your position represents all gamers is a falsehood. You accuse GW of greed when in reality it is you who are greedy.No. Disagreeing with the developers is not greed. Arguing for the current paradigm is not greed. It may be misguided, it may not be a sustainable business model. But it isn't greed. This is the way that things have worked for the last decade. From a player point of view, it has worked very well, even if developers feel otherwise. It is in the best interest of the players to argue for the system that best benefits them. That isn't greed, it's being pragmatic.But barring WoW and to a lesser extent EVE, the sub model hasn't worked for the last 10 years. Every other MMO that has been released has gone to a Free-to-play or hybrid model six months to a year after launch. In most cases they have lost money, and in some they have completely shut down.
Having a game that is sub only but fails due to not enough players paying is not in the players best interest or being pragmatic. Being pragmatic is recognizing that keeping the game profitable is in EVERYONE's best interest, and accepting that a MTX store will be in the game, and trying to make sure that is is used as micro-expansions and not pay-to-win.
This comparison is a little over-simplified because nearly all of those have been themepark games. They run into budget trouble and turn free-to-play after the first wave of customers finish all of the content and go looking for the next game. As a sandbox game, and with a plan in place for controlled, slow initial growth, PFO is already taking steps to avoid or mitigate "fast peak, long decline" syndrome. That doesn't mean a cash shop is a terrible idea, but it does mean that GW is already trying to avoid that particular economic crisis.
As the biggest MMO, WoW gets by on momentum, and EVE would already have a functioning cash shop if they hadn't made such huge mistakes when they introduced it. As long as PFO's cash shop stays cosmetic and not pay-to-win, I'm fine with it.
Edit: Yes, my EVE character had some fancy clothes, too, but that doesn't mean that the EVE MTX store (The Noble Exchange) is functioning economically for CCP. If my character could show off his fancy coat in a room with other people, I'd be much more inclined to buy more shiny clothes. If the Noble Exchange sold custom paint jobs for spaceships, I'd buy a couple of those, too. As things stand, the Noble Exchange is there, but it can't be providing CCP with much revenue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Help me understand this a bit, if someone could:
It is clear that those behind the financial model for PfO know a considerable amount more about 1. The Gaming industry, 2. the MMO gaming industry, and 3. The costs involved in this particular endeavor.
It is clear that there will be a cash shop.
It is clear what general types of items that GW proposes to offer in the cash shop.
It is clearly stated, at least, once by most of those against cash shops that those types of items are not "game breaking" or "pay-to-win".
So now we come to my questions:
Is the continued debate because some think that they can change GW's plans for a cash shop?
Is it because, deep down, there is a lack of trust that GW will keep to the stated type of cash shop items?
Is it just because it is fun to argue?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bringslite, my primary purpose in starting this thread was to try to persuade GW to forego certain things that I find very distasteful - the epitome of which is the "lockbox key". My secondary purpose was to inure some folks to the idea that there might be some actual useful gear in the Cash Shops, not just cosmetics, skins, and vanity items.
It was not my purpose, but I was quite pleased to see Ryan once again state unequivocally that they would never offer anything in the Cash Shop that was superior to what could be acquired in-game without spending money. And, although it's no matter to me personally, I imagine some folks will be relieved that he also chose to state unequivocally that there wouldn't be any high-end gear in the cash shop, only lower tier stuff.
99% of what players will craft will not be sold in the cash shop. Nothing sold in the cash shop will be meaningfully better than things crafted by characters. Nothing in the cash shop will represent advanced crafted items; we're talking about selling simple convenience items and low-powered disposable consumables.
Help me understand this a bit, if someone could:
It is clear that those behind the financial model for PfO know a considerable amount more about 1. The Gaming industry, 2. the MMO gaming industry, and 3. The costs involved in this particular endeavor.
It is clear that there will be a cash shop.
It is clear what general types of items that GW proposes to offer in the cash shop.
It is clearly stated, at least, once by most of those against cash shops that those types of items are not "game breaking" or "pay-to-win".
So now we come to my questions:
Is the continued debate because some think that they can change GW's plans for a cash shop?
Is it because, deep down, there is a lack of trust that GW will keep to the stated type of cash shop items?
Is it just because it is fun to argue?
1) they will do what they want, we wont change Jackshi*.
2)Its a mix of lack of trust and the fact that some of us disagrees with what they will sell.
3)its to show that not everyone choses the blue pill.
Chief Technical Officer
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So I fail to see the problem.I know, and that is the problem.Gamers want to play a game where money spended isnt equal power, only dedication and smart gameplay, and i never saw a cash shop that wasnt pay to win. what is happening is a bunch of suits and developers are trying to "force" a new business paradigm that greatly favors them in prejudice of consumers (read as gamers)using spins off and buzzwords, the sad part is a lot of ppl are falling for this BS, when i play a game i want to be immersed in a fantasy world where ppl are rewarded by the efforts and not by the size of his walllets where money creates pixels from nothing and im sure a lot of ppl posting here agrees with me, xeen and wraithkin but invested so much in the game that the passion blinds them.Here it is, the problem you are looking for.
That problem is in your imagination, and in Kabal 362's imagination. "i never saw a cash shop that wasnt pay to win" is the key statement there. Ryan has already told you that the cash shop in PFO will not be pay-to-win. You are choosing not to believe that, and that's, frankly, your own problem—it's not the game's problem.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Hey, you know what? The Pathfinder Online cash shop is not theoretical—it has already happened. In the Kickstarter, people have already given Goblinworks real-world money, and some of those people will be receiving in-game rewards, including some things that other people will be unable to get (though some of those rewards may change hands in-game).
And you can see from that exactly the sort of game-breaking items that Ryan thinks is appropriate to exchange for money: Pointed-Toe Shoes! A Cool Fez! The Goblin Squad Dogslicer—a poorly-made weapon with a goblin head embossed near the hilt!
It's the END OF THE WORLD!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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In-character titles! Unique forum avatar based on your character! A second, distinctive mark of Pharasma! Secret salute!
Or the equipment options:
Your character begins play with a selection of items appropriate to a low-level character of the class selected when the class pack is used. Each pack includes a weapon, a suit of armor, and three or four other items such as thieves tools, shields, boots, gloves, belts, or hats.
You receive an extra Alliance Pack that you can assign to any character you create, providing a character with a selection of costume items and consumables identifying him or her as a member of one of the game’s major alliances.
So far, it's noob gear and cosmetic. If the ability to buy that breaks the game for you, it probably says more about you than it does about the game, especially since it is literally impossible to prevent gear and coin from being sold for cash on the gray market.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wait. Is the red pill Cherry or Strawberry? I HATE Cherry.
It is actually Dragonfruit flavored. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Goblin Squad Dogslicer—a poorly-made weapon with a goblin head embossed near the hilt!
I think this item is a total game breaker and if I see anyone with it I will dig a hole so deep the River Kingdoms will drain into the center of Golarion!
(But then we Dwarves will have a place underground to explore!)
Well, maybe just nerf it a little.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Goblin Squad Dogslicer—a poorly-made weapon with a goblin head embossed near the hilt!I think this item is a total game breaker and if I see anyone with it I will dig a hole so deep the River Kingdoms will drain into the center of Golarion!
(But then we Dwarves will have a place underground to explore!)
Well, maybe just nerf it a little.
The dwarves already lived far underground, but they migrated up, a 300-year undertaking they call the Quest for Sky. Those who were left behind either perished or were corrupted.
At the centre of Golarion, apart from gravity that would compact you into a sphere the size of a pea, and molten metal that would instantly flash-fry all the water out of your body, you would find Rovagug who would not be happy to see you even if there were any 'you' left.
There's no need for a nerf, since using a dogslicer will break it 5% of the time, and they're size small anyway, doing half the damage of a common longsword.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So I fail to see the problem.I know, and that is the problem.Gamers want to play a game where money spended isnt equal power, only dedication and smart gameplay, and i never saw a cash shop that wasnt pay to win. what is happening is a bunch of suits and developers are trying to "force" a new business paradigm that greatly favors them in prejudice of consumers (read as gamers)using spins off and buzzwords, the sad part is a lot of ppl are falling for this BS, when i play a game i want to be immersed in a fantasy world where ppl are rewarded by the efforts and not by the size of his walllets where money creates pixels from nothing and im sure a lot of ppl posting here agrees with me, xeen and wraithkin but invested so much in the game that the passion blinds them.Here it is, the problem you are looking for.That problem is in your imagination, and in Kabal 362's imagination. "i never saw a cash shop that wasnt pay to win" is the key statement there. Ryan has already told you that the cash shop in PFO will not be pay-to-win. You are choosing not to believe that, and that's, frankly, your own problem—it's not the game's problem.
Really? I have imagined the other games with MTX turning into Pay to Win after they said they would only have cosmetics and etc?
All the games that have told their people that they were adding a cash shop said it would not be pay to win and ends up pay to win...
So who has the imagination now?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hey, you know what? The Pathfinder Online cash shop is not theoretical—it has already happened. In the Kickstarter, people have already given Goblinworks real-world money, and some of those people will be receiving in-game rewards, including some things that other people will be unable to get (though some of those rewards may change hands in-game).
And you can see from that exactly the sort of game-breaking items that Ryan thinks is appropriate to exchange for money: Pointed-Toe Shoes! A Cool Fez! The Goblin Squad Dogslicer—a poorly-made weapon with a goblin head embossed near the hilt!
It's the END OF THE WORLD!
The Kickstarter campaign also featured a few add-ons providing mechanical bonuses:
$15 - Regional Trait Pack
Players can purchase Regional Traits Packs for their characters that give them background elements of coming from a specific country or region in Golarion. A Region Trait Pack will provide the character with an achievement
stating the country they hail from, a title, and a small mechanical effect, all based on the country of origin selected when the pack is used
$20 - Twice-Marked of Pharasma
All characters in Pathfinder Online are marked by Pharasma and are thus able to return from the dead at the soulbinding points. You bear the same mark as all other characters but you have a second, distinctive mark
as well. None know why you bear this mark, nor what it may portend in the future, but be sure that Fate has many surprises in store for those who are Twice-Chosen by the Lady of Graves. The bearer of this second Mark
will have access to content and mechanical benefits distinct to those who are Twice Marked!
These addons available in the store clearly state they provide an additional mechanical effect. I don't know if its intended that these are limited to original kickstarter backers as a special reward and not available in the future cash shop. Regardless, I did purchase these options and so expect to receive some benefit from them, even if the benefit is relatively minor. I personally purchased them for thematic/RP purposes as much as anything else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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in 2012 CCP generated about $65 million in revenue, and had about $4 million in profits. They increased their debt by $19 million. In 2013, through the first 6 months, they had generated about $36 million, and a tiny profit.
CCP are developing 4 games (EVE, WOD, DUST & Valkyrie), running studios in 4 countries that I am aware of (China, US, UK & Iceland), but are only able to extract much revenue at this time from EVE.
I think GW need to have a cash shop at launch to give them an opportunity to continue to make money from the game and fund development.
CCP don't seem to be able to grow their revenue much: EVE's player base is largely static (http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility), I don't recollect their subscription rates ever being raised, and CCP failed to launch an effective cash shop. I expect this is why CCP seem to be putting development funds into new games rather than EVE (recent updates since Apocrypha in my opinion are glorified patches - necessary balance fixes etc - but not exactly expansions). Valkyrie for instance will be a separate game and not an update to EVE.
I want GW to continue to see the value in investing in PFO and to do that they have to see growth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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in 2012 CCP generated about $65 million in revenue, and had about $4 million in profits. They increased their debt by $19 million. In 2013, through the first 6 months, they had generated about $36 million, and a tiny profit.
And as Kelpie said, CCP has invested in 3 other projects... to make money... but Eve itself has made all the money they are using...
Oh woe is CCP without a cash shop
So to use a term from a fellow Paizo employee....
Its the END OF THE WORLD!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hey, you know what? The Pathfinder Online cash shop is not theoretical—it has already happened. In the Kickstarter, people have already given Goblinworks real-world money, and some of those people will be receiving in-game rewards, including some things that other people will be unable to get (though some of those rewards may change hands in-game).
And you can see from that exactly the sort of game-breaking items that Ryan thinks is appropriate to exchange for money: Pointed-Toe Shoes! A Cool Fez! The Goblin Squad Dogslicer—a poorly-made weapon with a goblin head embossed near the hilt!
It's the END OF THE WORLD!
Hey, you know what? Without the stuff in the Kickstarter, Pathfinder Online probably wouldnt have happened.
What do we get that matters, Destiny's Twin, I call that an investment... That will get me my money back in the long haul.
The rest is junk that will probably not get used.
And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Xeen,
Waste not your anger on those who need to purchase their advantages or those that call upon the Gods for mechanics to protect them. Neither store bought items nor the supposed consequences will protect them from those that rely on team work, individual prowess and an eagerness for conflict.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So Xeen, once the game starts and has a cash shop, you sticking around? Or quitting? Just curious, because you don't seem to agree cash shops are a place where companies can, or should make money.
Edit: Even though Ryan clearly showed all of us there are many players that want to spend more than the monthly sub fee on items that are not pay to win?
And even though you know there will be a cash shop. Consider me entertained.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So Xeen, once the game starts and has a cash shop, you sticking around? Or quitting? Just curious, because you don't seem to agree cash shops are a place where companies can, or should make money..
This line of questioning is no different than if I asked someone "if PFO turns out to be a "Murder Simulator" like many of the other Open World PvP MMOs , is that a deal breaker for you?"
I thought we were supposed to have moved on from such questions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO design seems suitable to avoiding problems with MTX.
But in the event we do run into problems and we want to ensure our contract with GW is honest (this is desirable) we can coordinate a voting system and opt for a "time-out" aka player-strike. Before that we vote and count and debate.
So the above would only come into action after a clear "P2W" tag was decided on any given MTX item. It could also be periodic review and probably and hopefully tertiary to GW passing any such options past a sample group already anyway.
Cue: "There they are: Those bst's let in this new trash! Kill'em!!"
But seriously so far game design seems honest to me which helps already. It's up to players who if highly organised anyway should be able to "unionised" appropriate responses. This is clearly not the case with various other mmorpgs as Xeen does observe rightly. But then the playerbase ain't going to be and act the same, is the key.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"if PFO turns out to be a "Murder Simulator" like many of the other Open World PvP MMOs , is that a deal breaker for you?"
That's a different phrasing than you've used before.
My answer is "Absolutely, that would be a deal-breaker for me".
And yeah, I know you weren't asking, but I don't really care :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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"if PFO turns out to be a "Murder Simulator" like many of the other Open World PvP MMOs , is that a deal breaker for you?"That's a different phrasing than you've used before.
My answer is "Absolutely, that would be a deal-breaker for me".
And yeah, I know you weren't asking, but I don't really care :)
You obviously missed the point of my question or you cherry picked what was not the intent of the question to make a phantom argument of your own.
I thought we were supposed to have moved on from such questions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Xeen,
Waste not your anger on those who need to purchase their advantages or those that call upon the Gods for mechanics to protect them. Neither store bought items nor the supposed consequences will protect them from those that rely on team work, individual prowess and an eagerness for conflict.
@Bluddwolf Here is a post by you Bludd, just today that could be considered antagonistic, inflammatory, and an incorrect representation of those that accept that there will be a cash shop.
I also thought that we were trying, at least, to get past all the BS and do some constructive things here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Xeen,
Waste not your anger on those who need to purchase their advantages or those that call upon the Gods for mechanics to protect them. Neither store bought items nor the supposed consequences will protect them from those that rely on team work, individual prowess and an eagerness for conflict.
@Bluddwolf Here is a post by you Bludd, just today that could be considered antagonistic, inflammatory, and an incorrect representation of those that accept that there will be a cash shop.
I also thought that we were trying, at least, to get past all the BS and do some constructive things here.
I am going to have to look at this in full context. I am completely fine with calling out antagonistic posts no matter whether the poster is friend or not. I have done so in the past, I will do so in the future.
What I don't want to do is fall prey to doing so when convenient.
*EDIT* I have read this two or three times now, and it reads to me that he is pointing out that he is confident PFO will not allow for purchased win conditions, and that other factors (team work, individual prowess and an eagerness for conflict) will determine success.
Have I missed something crucial? This does not seem antagonistic to me.
"if PFO turns out to be a "Murder Simulator" like many of the other Open World PvP MMOs , is that a deal breaker for you?"That's a different phrasing than you've used before.
My answer is "Absolutely, that would be a deal-breaker for me".
And yeah, I know you weren't asking, but I don't really care :)
You obviously missed the point of my question or you cherry picked what was not the intent of the question to make a phantom argument of your own.
I thought we were supposed to have moved on from such questions.
Yeah, I agree here. The point was that the question is antagonistic in nature. No one was expected it to be removed from the context and them answered.
It seemed snarky in nature to me, but individual interpretations are fallible. It does seem pretty clear in full context that it was at the very least misinterpreted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Morbis I do not find Bluddwolf encouraging Xeen to relax a little to be antagonistic in any way. I am not able to speak to how Xeen sees it.
To do so and at the same time misrepresent, willfully, the positions of those that disagree with the position, I do find potentially antagonistic. As I also find some comments from other Poster's here, including my own, possibly.
If you are going to call people out for a dirty back yard, you should make sure your own is clean. Or at least admit it is dirty too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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He isn't misrepresenting anyone. The cash shop will have items that you can buy, and those items will give you an advantage over someone who doesn't. That is the definition of pay to win. Whether or not it is an acceptable level of pay to win is up to the individual to determine. If someone who doesn't participate in the cash shop can rise above the disadvantage and still beat those who do, they are, again, by definition more skilled players.
Nothing in Bluddwolfs post is misrepresenting those facts. Nothing in Bluddwolfs post is inflammatory. Trying to build drama where there isn't any is.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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He isn't misrepresenting anyone. The cash shop will have items that you can buy, and those items will give you an advantage over someone who doesn't. That is the definition of pay to win. Whether or not it is an acceptable level of pay to win is up to the individual to determine. If someone who doesn't participate in the cash shop can rise above the disadvantage and still beat those who do, they are, again, by definition more skilled players.
Nothing in Bluddwolfs post is misrepresenting those facts. Nothing in Bluddwolfs post is inflammatory. Trying to build drama where there isn't any is.
Skipping the discussion which can be resolved only by reference to the things actually in the cash shop:
The mildly inflammatory portion was in the derogatory implications being implicitly leveled at the strawman on the other side of the policy debate that was being conducted.
I'm going to restate my personal opinion, that the behavior pattern of "behaving exactly as badly as possible without getting sanctioned" is bad.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Xeen,
Waste not your anger on those who need to purchase their advantages or those that call upon the Gods for mechanics to protect them. Neither store bought items nor the supposed consequences will protect them from those that rely on team work, individual prowess and an eagerness for conflict.
@Bluddwolf Here is a post by you Bludd, just today that could be considered antagonistic, inflammatory, and an incorrect representation of those that accept that there will be a cash shop.
I also thought that we were trying, at least, to get past all the BS and do some constructive things here.
Your accusation makes no sense, and has no foundation in anything I wrote. I did not characterize anything about those who will accept that there will be a cash shop. I know there will be a cash shop, and I would probably even buy things from it.
What I was telling Xeen was that I do not believe that any item bought for the shop would outweigh what one can gain from team work, individual prowess and an eagerness to engage in conflict.
If that is inflammatory antagonism, your perception is beyond reason.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The smallest mechanical advantage purchased with out of game funds is pay to win. If a health potion purchased with out of game funds ever creates a situation in which someone who bought it wins a fight against someone who didn't, that is pay to win. That people can freely buy secondary accounts within the scope of the rules and use those accounts to train alternate skills is pay to win (though one I find acceptable).
The cash shop will have pay to win aspects to it. They may be exceedingly small. Players who don't use them and win against those who do are better players. Again, nothing Bluddwolf said misrepresents that fact.
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Goblin Squad Member
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He isn't misrepresenting anyone. The cash shop will have items that you can buy, and those items will give you an advantage over someone who doesn't. That is the definition of pay to win. Whether or not it is an acceptable level of pay to win is up to the individual to determine. If someone who doesn't participate in the cash shop can rise above the disadvantage and still beat those who do, they are, again, by definition more skilled players.
Nothing in Bluddwolfs post is misrepresenting those facts. Nothing in Bluddwolfs post is inflammatory. Trying to build drama where there isn't any is.
Skipping the discussion which can be resolved only by reference to the things actually in the cash shop:
The mildly inflammatory portion was in the derogatory implications being implicitly leveled at the strawman on the other side of the policy debate that was being conducted.
I'm going to restate my personal opinion, that the behavior pattern of "behaving exactly as badly as possible without getting sanctioned" is bad.
I do not and could not defend the position that the targeted posters have always posted in a professional manner.
I am however noticing that such targeting is consistently selective. I am seeing better posts from those I once thought antagonistic, as well as a return to sarcasm and quote mining from others.
How could have this newest offending post been better delivered? Is mildly inflamatory unacceptable? Is there any way Xeen or Bluddwolf could have their opinions and desires shared at all?
I am serious about the last point. Is there any way a poster can take a position counter to another poster, be passionate in their position, and have it shared in any manner at all without being considered a detriment?
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, I think in the end, it is best that all feel free to voice their opinions as they will and let the Mods sort it out.
That includes opinions that other opinions are not agreed upon.
There is a significant amount of adversarial history, herein, that can't be overcome in a few weeks of attempting to play nice.
And there has been improvement on all sides as well as back slippage. I don't feel, anymore, that anything can really be done about it until there are some hard (coded) facts about the game to chew on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How very hopeless is reason amongst Gamers.There we go, an ad hominem, the last refuge of someone who doesn't actually have an actual argument.
I do have an argument. When I read Bludd's post this morning I found it mildly irritating because it suggests (to me) that those who accept that there will be a cash shop "need to purchase their advantages" and "call upon the Gods for mechanics to protect them". Then, later, Bluddwolf took issue with things, he saw posted that he did not like.
I will admit that what Bludd took issue with was more directed at an individual and was also not constructive. I am not defending any of these posts or even my own. Just making a point that seems useless now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bringslite
If you are referring to this exchange, I believe you are making the same misinterpretation as Nihimon did.
So Xeen, once the game starts and has a cash shop, you sticking around? Or quitting? Just curious, because you don't seem to agree cash shops are a place where companies can, or should make money..This line of questioning is no different than if I asked someone "if PFO turns out to be a "Murder Simulator" like many of the other Open World PvP MMOs , is that a deal breaker for you?"
I thought we were supposed to have moved on from such questions.
I was not asking the question, I was comparing to the question to a hypothetical question that would be equally outside of the spirit in which the "new tone" of the forums was supposed to be.
I'll be more specific, were we not to bring up others "quitting" or encouraging others not to try the game out? Or is that only an issue when some people do it, and not others?