Goblin Squad Member
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I don't really like the idea of being required to pay for cosmetic equipment, but if crafters could unlock new cosmetic options by paying for them it would open up crafters to developing their own unique and identifiable styles.
Anything that has a mechanical effect should not be a cash shop item either unless it comes in the form of early access.
In a few years paying to catch part way up to the oldest characters might be viable, but the oldest characters should maintain a distinct advantage. Being an old character should have some real meaning to it.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't really like the idea of being required to pay for cosmetic equipment, but if crafters could unlock new cosmetic options by paying for them it would open up crafters to developing their own unique and identifiable styles.
But then, only crafter would have to pay real money, ain't it unfair ?
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I still think Hob's idea of building skins for settlements where each settlement can set up a fund and its members can chip in is an awesome idea. It pays for the artwork handily and doesn't cost any one person much while at the same time giving settlements distinctive looks
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I still think Hob's idea of building skins for settlements where each settlement can set up a fund and its members can chip in is an awesome idea. It pays for the artwork handily and doesn't cost any one person much while at the same time giving settlements distinctive looks
Yep.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't really like the idea of being required to pay for cosmetic equipment, but if crafters could unlock new cosmetic options by paying for them it would open up crafters to developing their own unique and identifiable styles.But then, only crafter would have to pay real money, ain't it unfair ?
If the consumor has to pay for it you either get the situation where the consumer can't buy the really cool item, or they do buy it, pay the extra the crafter is probably charging for cool looks, and suddenly it looks like common trash. Both are undesirable.
You compensate for the crafter dropping the real cash by the crafter getting to charge more in game because the item looks cool and crafter dropped the cash on the ability to make cool items. Also the crafter can use the added gold to buy more Star Metal effectively turning that initial real cash investment into more real cash.
Allowing crafters to develop visually distinct items and in turn some brand recognition is one of the concepts that I find adds far more value to the game. Since we can probably expect game stats of crafted items to be fairly uniform for balance reasons, the only viable way to develop a brand and establish customer loyalty is through visually distinct items. Long term this is far more valuable than initial cash investment to unlock the ability to craft visually distinct items.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are paying a subscription you should NEVER be put in a position of feeling you MUST spend money in a cash shop to compete (pay to win weapons, armor, more bag space, potions, magical keys/components/buffs), advance your character/skills (trade skill recipes, skill books, bonus training, potions, magical key/components/buffs), look cool (basically only have 1 or 2 bland options in game with all the "cool" stuff being cash only), gain access to locked portions of the game (races, classes, zones).
Even in a f2p model the first 2, compete & advance your character are iffy.
Keep in mind, this is a PVP, player vs. player game.
It should NEVER, EVER, EVER turn into a "he who has the most cash WINS".
Using real world money to buy training or subscription time (PLEX) and selling it for in game cash should NEVER allow a person or organization to win in the in game economics warfare system by circumventing the in game mechanics (sieges, blockades, etc.) by allowing a person or group to real world cash buy there way out of the situation.
An item that can allow you to opt out of wars would be great. Also an item that would make you immune to PVP would be pretty cool. I would totally buy that for up to 5 bucks a piece.
Uh, no. Just... no.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not if it sticks to cosmetics or race/sex changes.Cash Shop anything is just b&#&*!&~.
Ruins the damn game in the long run.
Character Changes / Renames / etc... I am good with.
Cosmetics and looking cool is part of winning the game in my opinion, especially if you are playing the game to be social and to actually roleplay. Cosmetic cash shops work for games where a cool or unique avatar is not important for the portrayal of the character. Nobody RPs in LoL or Battlefield. But part of the challenge for roleplayers is to look as representative as they wish their text to be. Myself, and a lot of others I knew, played the WoW gear hunt game not for the best mechanical advantage, but to have something interesting to wear when sitting around chatting! Guild Wars 2 has been bugging me over the lack of 'Town Clothes' or even the option for my character to even equip Light Armor for the appearance. But they have no sub model, so I find that a lesser crime.
I would buy PVE content. I'm thinking something akin to mini-quests. Many computer games already sell additional quests as DLC, eg skyrim. This could be the digital equivalent to a pathfinder society adventure or tabletop pathfinder module currently sold by Paizo.
Most of my time I'm sure will be spent on settlement development type activities, but the occasional PVE quest would be something I'd likely be happy to pay for.
Perhaps I could pay a sum of money, say 10-20 dollars, in-line with typical DLC costs. An instanced adventure/quest would then be created. I could attempt that quest. I could invite some friends along. If I die I can try the quest again. However once it is 'completed', and I have saved the king's daughter, stolen the gem from the dragon or whatever and receive the primary adventure reward, then I can no longer attempt that quest again (no farming).
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Goblin Squad Member
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We will be paying a subscription fee... That should give us access to ALL PVE content. If Im paying for the game then have to pay for content that is really going to piss me off.
Paying for Race and Cosmetic items is a joke too. Do the devs really want everyone running around looking the same? I doubt it, so they will charge us to look different? Just sounds lame. Especially since, again, I will be PAYING A SUBSCRIPTION FEE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe "training fee" is what we will be paying, not "subscription fee". Stop paying and you can still keep on playing, only your character's skills can't advance any more.
It's possible they could set up bundle subscription packs that include training time for one or more characters as well as a number of tokens for use in the cash shop (enough tokens to buy any PvE pack they introduce for example).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe "training fee" is what we will be paying, not "subscription fee". Stop paying and you can still keep on playing, only your character's skills can't advance any more.
It's possible they could set up bundle subscription packs that include training time for one or more characters as well as a number of tokens for use in the cash shop (enough tokens to buy any PvE pack they introduce for example).
We are no paying a training fee. Ryan has said that if you do not pay your subscription then you cannot log in.
It is a subscription.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Assuming we are talking about a game charging a "market standard" monthly subscription fee (or an equivalent "training fee"), here are my two goblin balls on the original question:
1) Things I want to buy: Nothing.
I am one of the relics who believe that the virtual world should be separate from the real world and things like how much someone is willing to splash in a cash shop should not impact happenings in the virtual world.
Normally I do not have issues with purely aesthetic items being sold in a cash shop. However, anything with mechanical game impact seems to always lead to the slippery slope.
2) Things I hate to buy: Depending on your point of view, nothing or anything.
So far I have not been forced to buy anything. If the game is not enjoyable to me without the use of the cash shop I just stop (or that is what I have done so far).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not sure that's right, Xeen, although it may be true initially. I do seem to remember reading what Wurner describes somewhere and I think that that's the stated aim. I could have missed something in the meantime, though.
Ryan said that he does not want to allow people to train their characters for a few months then stop paying so they can play a partially trained character... Or have throw away alts.
Maybe it has changed though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are paying a subscription you should NEVER be put in a position of feeling you MUST spend money in a cash shop to compete (pay to win weapons, armor, more bag space, potions, magical keys/components/buffs), advance your character/skills (trade skill recipes, skill books, bonus training, potions, magical key/components/buffs), look cool (basically only have 1 or 2 bland options in game with all the "cool" stuff being cash only), gain access to locked portions of the game (races, classes, zones).
Even in a f2p model the first 2, compete & advance your character are iffy.
Keep in mind, this is a PVP, player vs. player game.
It should NEVER, EVER, EVER turn into a "he who has the most cash WINS".
Using real world money to buy training or subscription time (PLEX) and selling it for in game cash should NEVER allow a person or organization to win in the in game economics warfare system by circumventing the in game mechanics (sieges, blockades, etc.) by allowing a person or group to real world cash buy there way out of the situation.
This
Its why I have argued about the Goblin Balls (PLEX) system. People can just buy their way to the top instead of playing the game.
Assuming we are talking about a game charging a "market standard" monthly subscription fee (or an equivalent "training fee"), here are my two goblin balls on the original question:
1) Things I want to buy: Nothing.
I am one of the relics who believe that the virtual world should be separate from the real world and things like how much someone is willing to splash in a cash shop should not impact happenings in the virtual world.
Normally I do not have issues with purely aesthetic items being sold in a cash shop. However, anything with mechanical game impact seems to always lead to the slippery slope.
2) Things I hate to buy: Depending on your point of view, nothing or anything.
So far I have not been forced to buy anything. If the game is not enjoyable to me without the use of the cash shop I just stop (or that is what I have done so far).
Yeah
To me its like bribing the GM to give you things you want.
Not much more then cheating.
May as well buy a multi-player game and use some cheat codes so you have what you want to bash through the game.
I have been passionate about the PVP subject, but in the end no matter what they do for PVP I will be playing the game.
When it comes to cash shops, I start to draw the line. Thats when the game is about money and not having a good time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would buy PVE content.
This is exactly what I've been pushing for a while. I think a lot of people expect to receive all the content if they subscribe, but I don't think that's a practical business model. Personally, I'd like to see quest packs sold per character, and super-dungeon tickets sold per instance. I think that's the only realistic way to recoup the costs of developing that kind of content. If the prices went down over time, that would be great too.
[Edit] Aha! I see you're already on board. Excellent :)
[quote+"Rudar Rockborn"]Perhaps I could pay a sum of money, say 10-20 dollars, in-line with typical DLC costs. An instanced adventure/quest would then be created. I could attempt that quest. I could invite some friends along. If I die I can try the quest again. However once it is 'completed', and I have saved the king's daughter, stolen the gem from the dragon or whatever and receive the primary adventure reward, then I can no longer attempt that quest again (no farming).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan has said that if you do not pay your subscription then you cannot log in.
I don't remember him ever saying anything that concrete about it.
As far as I can tell, this is the most recent official statement on free-to-play.
@Hroderich Gottfrei - our thoughts on "playing for free" are evolving. There will be some form of free play, that's a requirement in today's market where people want to try an MMO before they put in any money.
How long you can play without paying anything is something we're thinking about. We don't want a game full of folks who trained for 6 months, got reasonably competent, and are now playing without producing any revenue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is exactly what I've been pushing for a while. I think a lot of people expect to receive all the content if they subscribe, but I don't think that's a practical business model. Personally, I'd like to see quest packs sold per character, and super-dungeon tickets sold per instance. I think that's the only realistic way to recoup the costs of developing that kind of content. If the prices went down over time, that would be great too.
Practical business model? Games have made tons of cash off that business model now for over a decade...
If they start charging side money for PVE content... That is a problem, If I am paying a subscription then I expect the game content, all of it.
Why pay $14.95 per month for several years to have to pay more for the game?
Why does that make sense?
If I payed for Eve every month from the time I started to the time my subscription ends currently (december, always wished I kept the characters training when I left game) I would have payed $1255.80 for 1 account and I always have 2.
Dont you think that is enough for the content of the game? Every piece of the content?
Edit: I believe I have payed roughly $2152.80, and that is not counting character transfer fees which I have payed tons of.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Isn't paying for PvE content just the same paying for loot, in the end ?
Only if that gear is: 1) only available via paid content; and 2) better than the gear that can be acquired outside of paid content.
If all PvE Content has to be included in every subscription (or month of training bought with Goblin Balls) then the devs have no way to know which content is actually valuable to players. If the players pay separately for it, then they can tell what's valuable, and produce more like that.
Think of it like A la carte pay television.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They can absolutely monitor what content is most used and is least used... without requiring you to pay for it. Eve does it all the time and in fact they put out graphs showing what minerals/loot are used on a quarterly basis. They have also shown what NPC's are farmed most and at what levels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still have problems with paying for any kind of content so long as I have a subscription.
I have less issues with Pay for Early Access content. For example, for $1 you can enter New Static Dungeon X three months before the common public. This would almost mirror an Early Enrollment version for new content and allow for production testing across smaller user bases. Perhaps an extra $5 to your sub could get you early access to all new content.
But at the end of the day, if I am paying for a sub @ $15/month that is $180/year. Cheaper than 2 movies a month, but more than two full non-sub games with their DLC in a year. And let me tell you, I can sink some good hours into the right games - which steam is eagerly willing to share with me whenever I go to load up Civilization 5.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They can absolutely monitor what content is most used and is least used... without requiring you to pay for it. Eve does it all the time and in fact they put out graphs showing what minerals/loot are used on a quarterly basis. They have also shown what NPC's are farmed most and at what levels.
Theoretically it really isn't that difficult to find out what content people are interacting with. You can parse all the information you need from server logs, and the developers have complete access to those. Need to know what percentage of the population is using the themepark PvE content? Parse the server logs for zone ins on the themepark content. Need to know what percentage of the population is participating in the mining/gathering metagame? Parse the server logs for people who are actively walking around a zone with the gathering skills equipped.
There are plenty of arguments for micro-transactions. Data recovery and processing is not one of them, at least in an MMORPG setting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen and @Morbis,
There's a world of difference between knowing which pieces of free content players are using, and knowing which pieces of content players are willing to pay for.
I'm well aware that usage statistics aren't hard to come by, but I'm not talking about usage statistics. I'm talking about purchase statistics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Purchase statistics are only relevant if you are already engaged in a micro transaction economy. In a subscription model usage statistics are the exact equivalent. What content players are engaging with while they have an active subscription measures exactly what content players are willing to pay for. They are literally already paying for it.
Consider the potential future where third party companies are producing content.
That would be a time where I would be willing to pay with micro-transactions. As long as the third party content creators are getting a substantial percentage of the profit (ala Valve) then I am more than willing to buy additional content.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still have problems with paying for any kind of content so long as I have a subscription.Consider the potential future where third party companies are producing content.
You mean companies making "mods" or do you mean "outsourcing"? I really am wary about seeing the former show up in a persistent shared-world MMO. The latter should be invisible to the end-user.
I work in the games industry, and I have insights into the business end. The current running model being adopted far and wide is "Infinite Monetization of a user". That is making sure that the players always have the opportunity to pay you more money, regardless of how much has already been paid in.
From the business side trying to make a profit, I can understand the mindset very well. From the consumer side, it makes me feel like my experience is being cheapened for the benefit of a quick buck. Especially when I am paying a full premium price for the base content. Free-To-Play or Cheap-To-Play I am more supportive of seeing the model in, as it is the primary revenue stream for those systems and not just an extra cash grab.
However, I do understand that my distaste for the model is in the minority and I am fully expected to have to "suck it up and deal with it", but that doesn't mean I cannot at least speak out and advocate against it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If Goblinworks is expected to include all PvE Content in the price of the subscription, regardless of how much it cost to create that content, then there won't ever be much PvE Content.
However, if they can price the content based on its cost, and let the market determine which content producers are valuable, then we'll all be much better off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If Goblinworks is expected to include all PvE Content in the price of the subscription, regardless of how much it cost to create that content, then there won't ever be much PvE Content.
However, if they can price the content based on its cost, and let the market determine which content producers are valuable, then we'll all be much better off.
Except for those who are excluded from participating in content because of the extra price barriers. For-pay premium content adds additional exclusionary elements to the game. If I have to think about whether I already bought content, or my friends have already bought content, or if someone needs to buy content for us to do something together, that is a HUGE negative to the game. For-pay PvE content beyond the subscription price, if it grew popular enough, would cause me enough stress and annoyance to outright quit the game.
I want to make one payment a month, or per six months, or per year and then forget about how money relates to my gaming experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lifedragn.
I think this is how it works: for teh MTX + Sub model:
1. MTX for portions of the full pie and eg small sides like grated cheese to sprinkle on top.
2. Sub for the full pie
3. Premium stews, meats, cheeses that go nicely with pies or ingredients or recepies to make your home-made pies even.
These food analogies must be because I'm hungry today!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that although many people will complain about it, there should be cash shop stuff that is not freely accessible to a subscriber. This is because GW will get people who are willing to subscribe and make cash shop purchases, and by not giving them the opportunity to do that they're hurting themselves. The determining factor is making the cash shop items desirable but not deal-breakers if you don't have them; a delicate balancing act that's been played by many MMO's.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that although many people will complain about it, there should be cash shop stuff that is not freely accessible to a subscriber. This is because GW will get people who are willing to subscribe and make cash shop purchases, and by not giving them the opportunity to do that they're hurting themselves. The determining factor is making the cash shop items desirable but not deal-breakers if you don't have them; a delicate balancing act that's been played by many MMO's.
This is the route I expect to see happen. Cosmetics, pets, mount and item skins (IE: Apply this to a horse and it looks like a unicorn type of things). I can live with it, but would not be happy about it. Actual content like dungeons would be going too far, in my opinion. Unless someone was playing F2P and selecting a la carte options. But I fully intend to sub, even if F2P is an option.
@Avena - MTX and Premium are the sort of stuff I expect to see extra on static dinner menu. When I am paying for a Sub, I expect a full-service all you can eat buffet. I am already paying more over time than I would for any other game, and then you want me to pay even more for the dessert table or a shaker of salt?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is the route I expect to see happen. Cosmetics, pets, mount and item skins (IE: Apply this to a horse and it looks like a unicorn type of things).
I hope that you don't let your personal desires color your actual expectations so much that you close your ears to what Ryan has said from the beginning.
Therefore, as we've said since the inception of this community, our MTX won't feature items that have a meaningful in-game benefit, nor will we sell things that are mechanically superior to the goods craftable by the players themselves.
The strong implication being that Goblinworks' MTX will feature things that are mechanically equivalent to the goods craftable by the players themselves, although likely not to the extent that they have a significant impact on the player-driven market.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No desert is sub, salt is MTX and sub-included. What would be Premium? Sitting in the backroom for 2 with the chef cooking to suggestion and an orchestra playing music of your choice in the background, perhaps for a valentines day Romantic dinner, while the carp swim elegantly in the background Thai forest scenery making you forget it's -10C outside on a cold dark February Winter's night!
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The purpose of a subscription is player convenience. You don't have to manage your MTX cash, or deal with regular interruptions to keep playing. It automatically bills so you don't have to worry about forgetting to pay and having your training pause. Because there's an upside to us (we like regular income) we'll throw some bonus perks in the deal as a way of saying "thanks for your support".
It's not an all-you-can-eat ticket.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The purpose of a subscription is player convenience. You don't have to manage your MTX cash, or deal with regular interruptions to keep playing. It automatically bills so you don't have to worry about forgetting to pay and having your training pause. Because there's an upside to us (we like regular income) we'll throw some bonus perks in the deal as a way of saying "thanks for your support".
It's not an all-you-can-eat ticket.
So, If I pay a subscription I wont get everything the game has to offer?
Subscriptions are not for convenience, they are for me to pay for the game I am playing and you are updating.
If anyone wants to ask: U Mad Bro?
My answer will be: YES
Edit: The biggest reason I am mad is because I am rereading the blog that yapped on about skymetal bits...
Edit 2: Holy Crap, now I want to hit myself in the head with a hammer because I did not pay attention to that before...
MTX, what trash
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would a pricing model similar to Steam's alter the picture? New content would start off discounted slightly from list price, go to list price after a month, then gradually drop in price and at some point become "free to subscribers".
This seems to me like a very good pricing model for content in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen - as long as its not pay to win, which GW already said its not, it really shouldn't matter. The problem for sub based players is there is a market for cash shops. GW is going to maximize their profit via a hybrid system. As long as they stay true to their product and don't make dumb choices like "all backpacks cost 5 bucks or more" they'll be fine.
I don't like it, but if throwing money at them will get us some things we want sooner, or convience them to put things in that they had on the back burner, there is room for them to make money. Like I said, there are very few things ill be buying but there are definately things I would buy... DROW being one of them... HINT HINT.