Things I Want to Buy, and Things I Hate to Buy

[DeciusBrutus]

Xeen wrote:

So long as having everything that I should have as a customer doesnt cost more then $15 a month. From my interpretation of Ryans post it will cost more.

What should a customer who spends $15/month get? If we add to that basis some things that a customer who pays a few extra dollars get, does that impoverish you?

[Audoucet]

Xeen wrote:

So, If I pay a subscription I wont get everything the game has to offer?

Subscriptions are not for convenience, they are for me to pay for the game I am playing and you are updating.

If anyone wants to ask: U Mad Bro?
My answer will be: YES

Edit: The biggest reason I am mad is because I am rereading the blog that yapped on about skymetal bits...

Edit 2: Holy Crap, now I want to hit myself in the head with a hammer because I did not pay attention to that before...

MTX, what trash

Consider it IRL PvP. XD

[Ryan Dancey]

You get 30 days of training +/-. That's what you get for a subscription. We give you some other things as a gift for being a subscriber. There will be lots of of other things you could, but don't have to purchase.

[Andius]

I've believed for a long time, and still believe, things we want to control the quantity of but earning doesn't make sense should be purshased. For instance character heights that are abnormal for the player's race, iconic first / last names, non-core races etc.

I think there is lots of room there to both make some extra money and provide players with some unique features that we don't want everyone to have. I mean all adjustable height ever does in any game is guarantee most players will be over 6 feet tall.

[Nihimon]

@Andius, I really like the idea of there being a cost to having extraordinary height, for example, but I think it should count against your character creation budget instead of your actual real-world money budget.

I kind of hit on this in the OP, but I kind of have a problem with them charging money for things that don't really have an additional cost.

[Xeen]

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Xeen wrote:

So long as having everything that I should have as a customer doesnt cost more then $15 a month. From my interpretation of Ryans post it will cost more.

What should a customer who spends $15/month get? If we add to that basis some things that a customer who pays a few extra dollars get, does that impoverish you?

Someone who spends $15 a month should get the game.

When you have MTX stores it ends up filling up with a bunch of junk... That people buy... then next thing you know the Devs spend all their time working on the MTX shop and letting the rest of the game slide.

[Ashgan]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

You get 30 days of training +/-. That's what you get for a subscription. We give you some other things as a gift for being a subscriber. There will be lots of of other things you could, but don't have to purchase.

"There will be lots of of other things you could, but don't have to purchase." This parts got me worried, that has any number of meanings including pay for items that are more powerfull than anything else you can get normally in game.

That aside I don't mean to put words in mouth but that kind of statement is too generic not to get worried and at the same time its got me worried due to the possibilities -_-

[Xeen]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

You get 30 days of training +/-. That's what you get for a subscription. We give you some other things as a gift for being a subscriber. There will be lots of of other things you could, but don't have to purchase.

Can you just do Goblin Balls and leave it at that... You know as well as anyone else that CCP made tons of cash just selling that and letting the players have access to everything with a subscription.

[Nihimon]

Ashgan wrote:

"There will be lots of of other things you could, but don't have to purchase." This parts got me worried, that has any number of meanings including pay for items that are more powerfull than anything else you can get normally in game.

Only Ryan has repeatedly said they won't offer anything that's mechanically superior to what can be crafted by players, and he's made it clear that they're not going to make the Cash Shop an alternate for all the stuff you can get from players either.

Ryan Dancey (Kickstarter Community Thread: Subscriptions & Microtransactions) wrote:

Our commitment to the players is that nothing you can purchase with microtransactions will be mechanically superior to the materials created in-game through character activity.

[Xeen]

Nihimon wrote:

Ashgan wrote:

"There will be lots of of other things you could, but don't have to purchase." This parts got me worried, that has any number of meanings including pay for items that are more powerfull than anything else you can get normally in game.

Only Ryan has repeatedly said they won't offer anything that's mechanically superior to what can be crafted by players, and he's made it clear that they're not going to make the Cash Shop an alternate for all the stuff you can get from players either.

Ryan Dancey (Kickstarter Community Thread: Subscriptions & Microtransactions) wrote:

Our commitment to the players is that nothing you can purchase with microtransactions will be mechanically superior to the materials created in-game through character activity.

They said that in SWTOR too and was that way in the beginning.... Now it isnt true. What is it then that can be offered in that market? Cosmetic changes to armor? That kind of stuff should be in the control of the crafters and nothing else. Race Changes? Shouldnt be allowed, the game will turn into Flavor of the Month.

[Jazzlvraz]

Xeen wrote:

...next thing you know the Devs spend all their time working on the MTX shop and letting the rest of the game slide.

In what game(s) has this happened, please? I've not heard that before.

[Jazzlvraz]

Xeen wrote:

Race Changes? Shouldnt be allowed...

Ryan's ruled those out:

Ryan Dancey wrote:

No non-core races will get a free change. The only change is, per character, one time, you can change from a race already in the game to a core race added to the game after you created that character. And that option will be sunset.

[deisum]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

You get 30 days of training +/-. That's what you get for a subscription. We give you some other things as a gift for being a subscriber. There will be lots of of other things you could, but don't have to purchase.

So what will 'login and interact with other players' access cost?

Will there be a subscription level that that is 'Vegas style all you can eat buffet'?

[DeciusBrutus]

Xeen wrote:

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Xeen wrote:

So long as having everything that I should have as a customer doesnt cost more then $15 a month. From my interpretation of Ryans post it will cost more.

What should a customer who spends $15/month get? If we add to that basis some things that a customer who pays a few extra dollars get, does that impoverish you?

Someone who spends $15 a month should get the game.

When you have MTX stores it ends up filling up with a bunch of junk... That people buy... then next thing you know the Devs spend all their time working on the MTX shop and letting the rest of the game slide.

By all accounts, your subscription will allow you to play the same game as the 'whales' who choose to subsidize your subscription by making additional purchases.

What it sounds like you want is the art and development teams to get paid less than industry standard because they are giving away most of their work. Blizzard can afford to generate new content regularly because their development costs are scale-insensitive, their audience is gargantuan, and they can make people repeat the same content dozens or hundreds of times by making the +(n+1) left pauldron arbitrarily rare.

[Ashgan]

Nihimon wrote:

Ashgan wrote:

"There will be lots of of other things you could, but don't have to purchase." This parts got me worried, that has any number of meanings including pay for items that are more powerfull than anything else you can get normally in game.

Only Ryan has repeatedly said they won't offer anything that's mechanically superior to what can be crafted by players, and he's made it clear that they're not going to make the Cash Shop an alternate for all the stuff you can get from players either.

Ryan Dancey (Kickstarter Community Thread: Subscriptions & Microtransactions) wrote:

Our commitment to the players is that nothing you can purchase with microtransactions will be mechanically superior to the materials created in-game through character activity.

well like I said was not putting words in mouth that statement had many meanings on its own.

I could say I've heard all that before but all I can really do is hope that the want for more money doesn't make them change their minds on that statement.

I'm honestly not opposed to cash shops as long as its extras odd bobs and ends that don't do much of anything in the game.
Also if they want my money on that end I usually refuse to pay for 1 off items as in buy some fireworks that you can use 3 times. [I could potentially see extra stuff in the cash shop instead of expansions just minior additions (by this I mean races and dungeons [although it is my hope that Gobo would at least put in all the default races before trying to cash in on that one]) but it does seem reasonable to put things like that in as long as its reasonably priced and not do expansions I guess.

Nihimon wrote:

Lifedragn wrote:

I still have problems with paying for any kind of content so long as I have a subscription.

Consider the potential future where third party companies are producing content.

SOE has a player made content bit where I think players get a small bit of the money but its a win win in my opinion as you have your own players make you content as well as making you extra money, it does get screened in EQ I believe the requirement is it had to fit the lore.

Ryan Dancey wrote:

The purpose of a subscription is player convenience. You don't have to manage your MTX cash, or deal with regular interruptions to keep playing. It automatically bills so you don't have to worry about forgetting to pay and having your training pause. Because there's an upside to us (we like regular income) we'll throw some bonus perks in the deal as a way of saying "thanks for your support".

It's not an all-you-can-eat ticket.

Unless the subs are lower then the average I fail to see how this works? Maybe its inflation at work but I remember not having to pay a monthly as well as extra to get access to everything a sub game had to offer... Unless you do have a F2P model now in which case I could just free play and pay for additions.

[Nihimon]

deisum wrote:

Will there be a subscription level that that is 'Vegas style all you can eat buffet'?

Maybe...

Ryan Dancey (So we can buy the best gear with real money?) wrote:

Actually the cash shop in Pathfinder Online is to increase the revenue we get per player above the default $15/mo subscription average that most current Western MMOs charge without having to get into a huge PR battle over having a premium-priced subscription for a game that's undergoing continuous Crowdforging.

I'm not entirely sure how to read that. Maybe it means he feels they can't get away with even offering a "premium-priced subscription". Or maybe it means he just can't make the standard subscription "premium-priced". Fallen Earth offers a $30 per month subscription choice. I can't imagine it would be terrible for PFO to offer something similar, or even higher, as long as there's a reasonable $10-$15 per month option as well.

Personally, I hope there's a very simple way to set up recurring purchases of Goblin Points (or whatever they end up calling their Cash Shop currency). I really think I'd like to start stocking up early.

[Ashgan]

Jazzlvraz wrote:

Xeen wrote:

...next thing you know the Devs spend all their time working on the MTX shop and letting the rest of the game slide.

In what game(s) has this happened, please? I've not heard that before.

Champions Online I have not seen a proper update that has had nothing to do with the cash shop in forever...

[Nihimon]

Ashgan wrote:

I could say I've heard all that before but all I can really do is hope that the want for more money doesn't make them change their minds on that statement.

I hear you. I think we all need to be aware of the fact that, if their business is on the line, they'll make whatever decisions they think are necessary.

This is actually one of the reasons the PvP consequences are so important to me. I am completely convinced that this combination - nonconsensual PvP + consequences - is a major part of what will make PFO successful (constrained growth being the other). If PFO is successful with their existing business plan, then they won't feel like they have to do those other things in order to stay profitable.

So, our best bet is to help them make PFO successful under its current business plan. That means letting them make money off of custom-look gear that's just as good as what's crafted, and off of the other things that actually have significant costs associated with them.

[Alarox]

Things I would like to see/wouldn't mind seeing:

1.) Anything purely cosmetic/flavor
2.) Anything convenience related that doesn't give any real in-game advantage
3.) Exclusive content that is not essential to the game

#1: Lots of people like it, nobody has a problem with it. I could be willing to buy, but usually I MUCH prefer anything I can get in-game as it feels much more rewarding to wear what I've earned, even if visually inferior.
#2: Mostly things that people would situationally think "that would be useful" and buy on impulse for convenience. The only times they're bad for a game is if they are truly significant items or if the game is eventually designed around being a hassle to where these are almost required. There may be times when I would consider buying.
#3: Example would be a hand crafted dungeon with unique looking loot or titles/achievements associated. I would probably pay for these if they were high enough on quality, weren't a rip-off, and weren't deducting from maintaining/improving the core game

Things I wouldn't like to see:

1.) Anything that gives a noticeable in-game advantage or is a necessity for enjoying the game, or takes away from the core game

----------

However, if I'm paying a 15$ subscription I'll expect all of #3.

[Nihimon]

Alarox wrote:

Things I wouldn't like to see:

1.) Anything that gives a noticeable in-game advantage or is a necessity for enjoying the game, or takes away from the core game

#1 Obvious.

Complete agreement, and we pretty much have that in writing from Ryan :)

Alarox wrote:

Things I would like to see/wouldn't mind seeing:

1.) Anything purely cosmetic/flavor
2.) Anything convenience related that doesn't give any real in-game advantage
3.) Exclusive content that is not essential to the game

I actually have a problem with 2, but I'll probably have to suck it up and deal with it. There's something that feels chintzy to me about charging folks real (or in-game) money to increase their bag slots or bank slots. It boils down to wanting them to only charge money for things that actually incur a cost on Goblinworks.

However, when I try to look at it objectively, it might just be my self-interest since I'm quite the pack-rat. I guess I have to admit that there's not much difference (in my cost-based analysis) between selling bank slots or selling minor healing potions. I'll have to give this more thought...

[Alarox]

Nihimon wrote:

Alarox wrote:

Things I wouldn't like to see:

1.) Anything that gives a noticeable in-game advantage or is a necessity for enjoying the game, or takes away from the core game

#1 Obvious.

Complete agreement, and we pretty much have that in writing from Ryan :)

Alarox wrote:

Things I would like to see/wouldn't mind seeing:

1.) Anything purely cosmetic/flavor
2.) Anything convenience related that doesn't give any real in-game advantage
3.) Exclusive content that is not essential to the game

I actually have a problem with 2, but I'll probably have to suck it up and deal with it. There's something that feels chintzy to me about charging folks real (or in-game) money to increase their bag slots or bank slots. It boils down to wanting them to only charge money for things that actually incur a cost on Goblinworks.

However, when I try to look at it objectively, it might just be my self-interest since I'm quite the pack-rat. I guess I have to admit that there's not much difference (in my cost-based analysis) between selling bank slots or selling minor healing potions. I'll have to give this more thought...

I wouldn't be comfortable with increased bag/bank slots either unless you could gain them in-game at a reasonable rate and if the increases weren't seemingly exponential like in many MMOs. I believe that increased bank and bag slots are an in-game advantage rather than just convenience.

Although, most convenience items have a similar conflict between just convenience and objective in-game advantage.

[Ryan Dancey]

deisum wrote:

Will there be a subscription level that that is 'Vegas style all you can eat buffet'?

no

Quote:

I'm not entirely sure how to read that.

I expect average revenue per paying user (ARPPU) to be more than $15/mo. Without having a subscription option priced higher than $15/mo.

[Shane Gifford]

Hmmm, maybe there could be an option to do recurring Skymetal purchases, either alongside or independent of your subscription? It seems many people want the ability to get cash shop stuff without worrying about the nickels and dimes, so they can just think of it as a $20/month subscription and get the subscription + 5$ Skymetal, or whatever system they set up.

[deisum]

Thanks for the clear answer! I'm guessing the jury is still out on my other question.

One more: Will stuff in the MTX be freely available to sell/trade (aside from services, obviously), or will it be account bound?

[Lhan]

Xeen wrote:

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Xeen wrote:

So long as having everything that I should have as a customer doesnt cost more then $15 a month. From my interpretation of Ryans post it will cost more.

What should a customer who spends $15/month get? If we add to that basis some things that a customer who pays a few extra dollars get, does that impoverish you?

Someone who spends $15 a month should get the game.

When you have MTX stores it ends up filling up with a bunch of junk... That people buy... then next thing you know the Devs spend all their time working on the MTX shop and letting the rest of the game slide.

I hadn't really seen eye to eye with Xeen on this until this last point, which I think is a valid cause for concern. If a company becomes so concerned with monetisation of its product that it forgets the core then this is a recipe for failure.

I'm sure that GW will keep things under control, but it is worth bearing in mind that not everyone who is complaining about MTX is doing so as a whine. Xeen's worries are justifiable, if hopefully not justified,and it would be good if GW made noises to allay this kind of fear.

[Andius]

I'll always hate micro-transaction systems but I don't blame gave developers for switching to them. They supply what we demand, and we've proven luring us in with a "free" stickers and then offering overpriced shiny ponies is an easier way to get our money than focusing all the development effort on a great game we can all enjoy if we pay our fair share.

I'm still going to make the most of it though.

[AvenaOats]

Lhan wrote:

Xeen wrote:

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Xeen wrote:

So long as having everything that I should have as a customer doesnt cost more then $15 a month. From my interpretation of Ryans post it will cost more.

What should a customer who spends $15/month get? If we add to that basis some things that a customer who pays a few extra dollars get, does that impoverish you?

Someone who spends $15 a month should get the game.

When you have MTX stores it ends up filling up with a bunch of junk... That people buy... then next thing you know the Devs spend all their time working on the MTX shop and letting the rest of the game slide.

I hadn't really seen eye to eye with Xeen on this until this last point, which I think is a valid cause for concern. If a company becomes so concerned with monetisation of its product that it forgets the core then this is a recipe for failure.

I'm sure that GW will keep things under control, but it is worth bearing in mind that not everyone who is complaining about MTX is doing so as a whine. Xeen's worries are justifiable, if hopefully not justified,and it would be good if GW made noises to allay this kind of fear.

Agree: Xeen makes a compelling argument.

1. If it's exclusively $15/m = Players know the devs are working to retain subs

2. If it's MTX as well and at population = 10,000 it does not add up but at population = 50,000 MTX becomes a big money spinner then how do players know that the sub they pay per month * 26 months does not suddenly have the same attention and development from the devs as month 1?

So it's a visibility and therefore a trust argument.

Perhaps GW should have to greenlight new MTX endeavours every 6 months via the community? I know that has practical problems and could be a recipe for protest only but some control/acceptance on the contract between players an devs might be the equitable solution?

/just a thought

The worry stems from clash of interests: Early players act and behave different from later crowd who buy MTX as by then the world is more built and a lot of these are game-hoppers...

[Being]

Some customers think their patronage entitles them to ownership of the store.

We contributed because we wanted the game described. We did not buy a controlling interest in their stock.

[AvenaOats]

The problem with MTX is it does have a tendency to affect game design. That arm-wrestle gets stronger over time as per LOTRs et al. That is worth questioning I think.

[avari3]

Nihimon wrote:

Xeen wrote:

Ryan has said that if you do not pay your subscription then you cannot log in.

I don't remember him ever saying anything that concrete about it.

As far as I can tell, this is the most recent official statement on free-to-play.

Ryan Dancey (Kickstarter Community Thread: Subscriptions & Microtransactions) wrote:

@Hroderich Gottfrei - our thoughts on "playing for free" are evolving. There will be some form of free play, that's a requirement in today's market where people want to try an MMO before they put in any money.

How long you can play without paying anything is something we're thinking about. We don't want a game full of folks who trained for 6 months, got reasonably competent, and are now playing without producing any revenue.

This is one of the few subjects I'm pretty hawkish on. There has to be a form of f2p. Pay to train is a great idea and GW should stick to it. The idea that masses of players are going to actually play the game for more 2-3 months without ever sinking a dime to advance their characters goes completely against everything we know about the psychology of gamers.

It is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more important to allow the faithful paying players who don't want to pay for a couple months to be able to log in and contribute(not only important for player but for the organization he plays with). THAT is GW's target market, adults who have jobs and can't always play 15 hours+ a week.

The threat of f2p players clogging the game up with players that never advance is silly. They will either pony up or move on to a game where their characters advance for free. Nobody spends countless hours on non advancing character.

[avari3]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

You get 30 days of training +/-. That's what you get for a subscription. We give you some other things as a gift for being a subscriber. There will be lots of of other things you could, but don't have to purchase.

This ^^^^^. I love this model.

[Nihimon]

avari3 wrote:

There has to be a form of f2p.

Ryan Dancey wrote:

There will be some form of free play, that's a requirement...

The big question is what form it takes.

avari3 wrote:

It is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more important to allow the faithful paying players who don't want to pay for a couple months to be able to log in and contribute.

I think the "faithful" will be able to easily buy a couple of Goblin Balls in the market if they need to tighten their purse strings for a few months.

avari3 wrote:

The threat of f2p players clogging the game up with players that never advance is silly. They will either pony up or move on to a game where their characters advance for free. Nobody spends countless hours on non advancing character.

I think that's probably true about new characters, but I think there's a very real danger that "Old Vets" might stop paying once they max out a particular build, especially if the player behind them actually has many characters.

[Nihimon]

Being wrote:

Some customers think their patronage entitles them to ownership of the store.

We contributed because we wanted the game described. We did not buy a controlling interest in their stock.

I sure wish I could Favorite this post a few more times.

I always try to remember that I'm basically a guest in Lisa's house while I'm here, and that I'll basically be a guest in Ryan's house when I'm playing PFO.

Can you imagine showing up at a Pasture Party and thinking your $15 cover (to help pay for the kegs) entitled you to demand the host deferred to you the same way you were expected to defer to the host? It truly boggles my mind.

[avari3]

Nihimon wrote:

avari3 wrote:

The threat of f2p players clogging the game up with players that never advance is silly. They will either pony up or move on to a game where their characters advance for free. Nobody spends countless hours on non advancing character.

I think that's probably true about new characters, but I think there's a very real danger that "Old Vets" might stop paying once they max out a particular build, especially if the player behind them actually has many characters.

Any player who is invested in the game will spend money to level til they cap and after that will find plenty of reasons to spend their cash on things that help their interests in the game (settlements) that they spent 3 years building.

Any player who has been paying for 3 straight years I think also has a right to play for free every once in a while if they want to.

I don't see why GW would be worried about throw away alts either. If somebody wants to drop $90 on a wrecked unusable low rep character, cha ching I'd take it.

[Nihimon]

avari3 wrote:

Any player who has been paying for 3 straight years I think also has a right to play for free every once in a while if they want to.

Don't you think ready access to Goblin Balls will accomplish that?

[avari3]

Nihimon wrote:

avari3 wrote:

Any player who has been paying for 3 straight years I think also has a right to play for free every once in a while if they want to.

Don't you think ready access to Goblin Balls will accomplish that?

I suppose so. Still think there needs to be a form of f2p. If there isn't during EE, our #'s will be low.

[Imbicatus]

avari3 wrote:

Nihimon wrote:

avari3 wrote:

Any player who has been paying for 3 straight years I think also has a right to play for free every once in a while if they want to.

Don't you think ready access to Goblin Balls will accomplish that?

I suppose so. Still think there needs to be a form of f2p. If there isn't during EE, our #'s will be low.

The whole point of EE is that our #s will be low. There is going to be a cap on how many new players are let in per month by design. It has also beed said multiple times that EE will be Sub only, with the other forms of payment/goblin balls being rolled out towards the end of EE.

There will be a form of f2p. It just won't happen in EE.

[avari3]

Imbicatus wrote:

avari3 wrote:

Nihimon wrote:

avari3 wrote:

Any player who has been paying for 3 straight years I think also has a right to play for free every once in a while if they want to.

Don't you think ready access to Goblin Balls will accomplish that?

I suppose so. Still think there needs to be a form of f2p. If there isn't during EE, our #'s will be low.

The whole point of EE is that our #s will be low. There is going to be a cap on how many new players are let in per month by design. It has also beed said multiple times that EE will be Sub only, with the other forms of payment/goblin balls being rolled out towards the end of EE.

There will be a form of f2p. It just won't happen in EE.

We'll see what happens after the 4th-6th month after the pre paid's are up and the game is still half way through its paid beta. I'm assuming GW has already thought this through and have a a plan for major systems to debut at exactly that time, but still...

I'll be paying. You'll be paying. Not sure how many more will.

[Nihimon]

Ryan has said Early Enrollment will be subscription-only. Granted, that may change during EE for a variety of reasons, but that's the stated plan.

[Sepherum]

I said this somewhere else but it bears repeating: Myself and my friends who play mmos always (I don't know the real reason or how it started) compare the monthly sub to going out to the movies. I can't speak for other places in the U.S., but here in Cally 15$ won't buy a single adult ticket plus a small popcorn. That'd be 17 bucks at my local multiplex in San Fran. Double that, take your significant other and maybe a bozo gets laid for once. My point is this. I don't mind the cash shop; if you can buy, with real world money, a building or item that is the equivalent of the highest crafters/builders, who is going to dedicate the countless RW hours to become a Great crafter/builder?

[Lifedragn]

Nihimon wrote:

Being wrote:

Some customers think their patronage entitles them to ownership of the store.

We contributed because we wanted the game described. We did not buy a controlling interest in their stock.

I sure wish I could Favorite this post a few more times.

I always try to remember that I'm basically a guest in Lisa's house while I'm here, and that I'll basically be a guest in Ryan's house when I'm playing PFO.

Can you imagine showing up at a Pasture Party and thinking your $15 cover (to help pay for the kegs) entitled you to demand the host deferred to you the same way you were expected to defer to the host? It truly boggles my mind.

The better analogy here is being used to going on all-inclusive vacations at a certain price. And then you sign up for a new vacation at similar price, get all excited about it, and then discover it isn't actually all-inclusive.

There is no real demand upon the hosts to defer, but there is some extreme disappointment over what we get in exchange for what we are paying. Our opinions deserve to be heard, though the hosts have the right to disagree and are under no obligation to change. The false expectations were based on older industry pricing standards and what subscription models typically entailed for other games which have never really been adjusted for inflation.

[DeciusBrutus]

If players are buying an item for $5 that is the equivalent of a craft able item, and a 1-month goblin ball is $20, then four of the crafted equivalent will sell for about enough coin to buy a goblin ball.

That's not a result of price-fixing, that's basic economics.

[Nihimon]

Good point, Sepherum. I think a lot of folks compare the subscription price to the cost of single-player games. I don't think that's a good comparison, though, because those single-player games don't really have the same kinds of costs to ensure it works with thousands of players playing together.

For my part, I compare it to going out to eat. We'll easily spend $30 going out to eat just the two of us with no drinks at Chili's. If we go somewhere nicer and splurge a little, it's easy to hit $70 or $80 - for a single meal.

I don't think I'd feel bad about spending $50 to $60 per month on PFO, plus the same for my wife.

[Nihimon]

Lifedragn wrote:

The better analogy here...

I think I may have given you the wrong impression. My analogy was in no way whatsoever related to those who desire all the content for a flat subscription fee. I realize I changed the subject without making it clear, and I apologize.

[Being]

Lifedragn wrote:

The better analogy here is being used to going on all-inclusive vacations at a certain price. And then you sign up for a new vacation at similar price, get all excited about it, and then discover it isn't actually all-inclusive...

Taking up your analogy if it is more comfortable, if the prospective vacationer has been informed up front that it isn't Sandals, and drinks, gambling, and scuba diving are extra, then hyperbolic complaints about vampirish greed thrown at the proprietor should rightly be turned back on the complainant. If the player wants something for nothing it isn't GW's greed but the player's that should be faulted.

[avari3]

I never have a problem justifying a subscription for a game I know will make me come home early instead of staying out for a couple more drinks at least once a week. It's actually SAVING me money.

Unfortunately, not every paying customer is as fanboi geeked as I am for PFO and I don't think it's a stretch to assume that an incomplete game at $15 month will lose players to infinite gaming options out there.

Again we'll see how this plays out, just my prediction.

[Papaver]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

You get 30 days of training +/-. That's what you get for a subscription.

Provided we are past the EE and the game is not only sub-based. Is being able to train aka gain skill-points equal being able to log in.

I'm asking because if those are not equal then nothing stops you from logging in and doing stuff as long as you do not want to progress skill wise.

[AvenaOats]

Being wrote:

Some customers think their patronage entitles them to ownership of the store.

We contributed because we wanted the game described. We did not buy a controlling interest in their stock.

The way I see PFO or MMORPGs of this design goal is differently. Though truthfully the business sense of what you say takes precedence. Nonetheless in Spain you have football teams who are owned by the supporters. They are called SOCIOS. It's for a social, cultural or sporting reason to invest into the club. That's it from the pov of the socios but they "own" the club and vote on how it should be run (ie elections). They obviously get to set the prices for tickets to matches and so on via voting. And of course the capital raised funds the team and club where success obviously provides contracts and sponsorships etc to run the club profitably/sustainably.

[Sepherum]

As I remember, there is going to be a ftp option at some point so peeps can just look around a little and kick the tires. I think that goes hand in hand with the cash shop so the devs are shooting for a 'ftp/buy some training in the shop/become a subscriber/maybe buy some further cool stuff' sort of progression.

[Shane Gifford]

@Papaver, they're aware of that issue, and basically said they're gonna think on it and determine how they'll fix that, so I suppose we'll hear their solution to the "train all my favorite skills then stop paying" dilemma soon enough.

I'll probably keep paying even if they don't change anything :). I always end up being something of a generalist in games with so many options (Elder Scrolls series being the big one for me), so I'm sure it'll take a very long time before I've trained enough skills to be satisfied with where my character's at.