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So Anevia Tirabade appears to be a woman.
PC's think of her as a her with a broken leg.
Then if I read things right.
Shes married to Irabeth another women.. No biggy.
Then they found out that Irabeth sold her family sword to pay for what amounts to a Perminate Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity for her husband to become a woman?
Correct?
How can a LG Pally justify Selling a Holy Sword, to pay for something so selfish? How could Irabeth not have Fallen from that act?
This Sword was Radiance, in the hands of a pally the Cold Iron Long Sword +1 glows with a golden light.. The sword even changes forms to match that favored by the wielder diety. This blade would have been an artifact. No way would she remain High Priestess if she sold off church property for a selfish(evil) act.
even though its a family blade.. the church would see it as theirs.. perhaps it was part of the reason they made her high priestess.
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Someone she loved was suffering, and she rationalized that easing another's pain was far more important than any holy artifact. That sounds pretty close to Paladin behavior to me.
Also, I'm not seeing the high priestess reference - is that from part 3 (which I'm still waiting on) or did I just miss it in parts 1/2 (which I haven't finished reading cover to cover yet)?
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Radiance and the sword Irabeth sold were two different blades..,.or so I thought.
Radiance and the sword Irabeth sold were two different blades..,.or so I thought.
Ah, you're right.
The one she sold was
The +1 evil outsider bane longsword found in area P8.
Correct. Klokk seems to have misread that part.
For what it's worth, if I were a GM running this I'd make Irabeth a LG fighter who used to be a paladin. To me, a paladin selling their holy sword (for something that's not life and death and for the benefit of their own close family, not the well-being of the community) is making an incredibly powerful statement that they're just not really interested in being a paladin. YMMV, obviously, and if a player wanted to play their paladin that way I'd talk with them about it rather than depaladining their PC, but I'd definitely yank an NPC paladin's paladinhood for it.
So Klokk's not alone. On the other hand my GM had the same opinion as Matt Thomason when I talked to him about this. It really depends on how you envision paladins and also on how you envision holy swords. In Paizo-world, selling a holy sword seems about the moral equivalent of selling a used car in the real world (i.e. not morally significant), whereas I see it as a member of the armed forces selling advanced weaponry that's been entrusted to them, but isn't actually theirs, on the black market.
But both paladins and holy swords are fiction so there's no right or wrong here, just a matter of taste.
IIRC, didn't she in fact sell it to people who she assumed were good and would make good use of it? I would agree it might be dubious if she was selling to a common arms merchant who might sell the sword to people of less stellar character. But if the sword was going to arm the crusaders in the Mendevian crusade, I don't see it as being too problematic. The sword is still being put to good use, and perhaps by common soldier who can't call down smite to aid them against evil outsiders.
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As was pointed out, her sword was not Radiance. If it had been Radiance, she not only wouldn't have sold it, but would have given her an element of fame as the wielder of Yaniel's blade (in addition to her fame for uncovering Staunton Vhane's treachery).
As for the "selling advanced weaponry" angle, you need to put it in context. She sold her sword to a merchant in a town on the edge of the Worldwound that is filled with crusaders. She had no clue that her sword would end up in the hands of the enemy. Most likely, the merchant would sell it to another crusader in the city, as demon-slaying swords are probably in pretty high demand. Said crusader would likely use the sword to combat evil, potentially to a greater effect than she would. So the most likely scenario is that the longsword ends up still doing good for the crusades. The fact that the sword fell into the hands of a traitor was unforeseeable. However, even if she thought the enemy could get a hold of it . . . the enchantment doesn't hold much benefit for people fighting against the crusaders. She would have given her enemies a single +1 longsword.
The real value of the sword was in its sentimental value; it was her father's blade. Her selling her sword to get Anevia's potion was basically her sacrificing a memento of her dead parents to help the woman she loves. Self-sacrifice for the benefit of someone else? Certainly sounds paladin-like to me.
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I would advise to see the sex change as something similar to a high level healing spell. Anevia was suffering from the mismatch between her inner self - soul if you will - and her physical body. To alleviate this suffering is an act of healing and healing the ones you love is not a selfish act. It may be less altruistic than healing strangers, but the alternative - not helping your loved ones when you could - would not be morally sound.
The issue might have been different if the sword was really a holy sword or holy avenger even or if Irabeth had actually sold it knowingly to cultists, but neither is the case.
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As folks have mentioned, she didn't sell a holy sword.
Furthermore... this is the type of thing a paladin WOULD do. They're champions of good, remember? And selling something of value if doing so can bring happiness to one you love is not only good... it's very generous and thoughtful and self-sacrificing. All very much paladin-themed acts.
Irabeth's paladinhood is in no danger of being lost for this act. In fact, it was strengthened.
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From Faiths of Purity's Iomedean Paladin code:
I will learn the weight of my sword. Without my heart to guide it, it is worthless—my strength is not in my sword, but in my heart. If I lose my sword, I have lost a tool. If I betray my heart, I have died.
Or... what James said.
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+1 on being unable to comprehend how someone could see selling a family treasure to pay for an expensive medical remedy for your beloved as a 'selfish' or 'evil' act.
o_O
I do understand the confusion if you thought she sold an artifact-level weapon, though.
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How can a LG Pally justify Selling a Holy Sword, to pay for something so selfish? How could Irabeth not have Fallen from that act?
...
No way would she remain High Priestess if she sold off church property for a selfish(evil) act.
How in the world is Irabeth helping to ease another person's suffering a selfish act? Particularly when, in doing so, she sacrifices something dear to herself? It is the very opposite of selfish.
And believe me, I speak from experience. What Anevia would have been experiencing prior to Irabeth's act of love and charity would have been suffering.
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(for something that's not life and death and for the benefit of their own close family, not the well-being of the community)
Anevia, like Irabeth, helps to serve the community in Kenabres. This is what her bio says:
She... assists Irabeth's work by volunteering at the Temple of Iomedae. She reads to the sick and helps make bandages and prepares meals. On occasion, the temple asks Anevia to undertake scouting missions along the river and report on activity in the Worldwound.
By helping one that serves the community, Irabeth helps that person to be better able to serve the community.
So Irabeth was in fact serving the community in this case. In addition to acting selflessly out of a sense of love, charity and duty.
I think this may be down to a misunderstanding. Sounds like Klokk thought she sold Radiance.
I think the argument could be made that, based on the particular tenets of whichever deity a Paladin happens to follow, a paladin selling her sword (to get their lover/spouse a much-needed magical body alteration) may have been seen as a mistake. Not a serious-bizness mistake, but one in the vein of 'oh you should have sacrificed more. love and family relationships are not for you, go smite more evil.'
As cited above, though, Iomedite Paladins don't work like this, so Irabeth is off the hook.
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I did indeed think that she sold Radiance to pay for the potion.
Thats where my confusion stemmed from. So from that prospective, if it woulda been one of my players that did that.. it woulda been autofall for them.
I can understand all about pain and suffereing, i live in physical pain every day.. if i could sell off a +1 sword to fix myself id be happy. BUT like i said it hought she was selling off radiance, err had sold off.. and was vary vary vary vary confused about that.
Needs of the many definitely outweigh the needs of the one. artifact level sword in the hands of a high priestess/crusade vs helping your loved one with a potion.
Please dun take this as a quarry or attack on the gendertransformation potion. It was much more i did think she sold an artifact for something cosmetic for her partner. (cosmetic cuz gender has no meaning in PF-Universe)
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Please dun take this as a quarry or attack on the gendertransformation potion. It was much more i did think she sold an artifact for something cosmetic for her partner. (cosmetic cuz gender has no meaning in PF-Universe)
It's not really cosmetic. It's a pretty important quality-of-life thing. One could take a very grim view on things and say that Anevia should have suffered through it for the greater good, but it's not a trivial sacrifice.
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Even if she had sold off Radience, I think it wouldn't have been an evil act. Misguided, out of touch, yes. But not evil. Sacrificing the good of the many for the good of a loved one is a pretty common and compelling theme, after all.
Is it chaotic as all the Maelstrom? Sure, no question about that. But to qualify as evil, it needs to (IMHO) be selfish, motivated out of spite or needlessly cruel.
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Fair enough Terraneaux, i have no clue RL wise whats what regarding her situation. Im just saying to me, FAW (fluff as written) makes gender not important.
Again assuming it was Radiance she sold. I cant see how getting rid of that blade for coin to help just one person, could balance the greater good that the blade could have done in the hands of a crusader. Its the whole money aspect. And giving up what i have assumed for 25 years to be divine property, simply loaned to a Hero, never actually theirs.
Far as the Maelstrom?
Chaotic - Yes
Evil - No, nature is neutral; However if there is a creature or force in the center of it wrecking havoc just because.. then yes evil.
_________ Topic change________
I noticed earlier that someone says a Holy Sword is no longer almost an Artifact.. not longer Church property, No longer willying imbued with the soul of an archeon, angel or paladin that bound their soul to the weapon. Holy Swords, are now just a "magic item, no different then anything else? Available for sale if a city is large enough, just like a cloak of protection +1 or amulet of natural armor 1?
If by "Holy Sword" you mean "a weapon with the holy enhancement", then yeah, they're not. holy's only a +2 enhancement cost - hardly artifact level on its own. An artifact holy sword might have the holy enhancement on it, but that alone isn't enough to make it an artifact.
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So then the pally's in my game could go to the "magic Shop" and buy a +5 Holy Avenger or Holy Defender? If they had enough coin they could literally buy the blade Iomedae used when she was mortal?
There is no more anything that sets them apart (fluff wise) from another piece of magic item.. say a vorpal sword or breastplate of command or ring of wishes?
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I'm fairly certain Holy Avengers are artifacts, as would be any deity's chosen weapon - currently wielded or priorly owned. Also vorpal is a +5 enhancement equivalent, it's crazy expensive, only the biggest of cities would have the necessary city value to afford such an item, and I imagine it would be super rare even if it could be available.
An individual unique weapon like mortal Iomedae's sword would probably fetch an even higher price than its enhancements would demand, due to the lore and fame attached to it. That and as a unique object, it likely wouldn't be sitting in some store, it'd be in the hands of her church, or a specific collector, or some creature's hoard.
But no, a regular old weapon with the holy enhancement, barring extra flavor or speciality, would not automatically be super important fluff-wise. Someone with Craft Magic Arms and Armor could make one if they have the requisite spells (holy smite - only a 4th-level cleric spell) or could beat the raised DC to craft the weapon without the spell.
It's also not automatically property of the church unless someone makes it for the church, as you were referring to in one of your earlier posts about "selling off church property" - unless the weapon belonged to the church in the first place, it having the holy property does not automatically make it church property. It would have to have been given or sold to the church, or crafted by a church smith/enhancer for that purpose. Unless there's some bit of Golarion lore that specifies otherwise of which I've never heard.
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There is no more anything that sets them apart (fluff wise) from another piece of magic item.. say a vorpal sword or breastplate of command or ring of wishes?
Any mortal capable of making magic items (be it by being a spellcaster with the appropriate feats or otherwise) may make a +1 Holy weapon. They don't even need to be a cleric or a worshipper of a good deity, they just need to be able to buy scrolls of the spells they need to enhance the weapon with the right power.
So, no, a "holy sword" by and large is no different from other mortal artifice.
The same logic cannot be applied to, say, the thorncrown of Iomedae.
"Fluff" as you call it, is supported by the rules. People who champion the cause of good may appreciate a holy weapon, but so would that Chaotic Neutral ranger who wants to use that holy scimitar to hunt fiendish antelope in Hell.
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I'm fairly certain Holy Avengers are artifacts
"Price 120,630 gp"
It is a weapon of religious significance thouroughly able to be created by non-mythic, mortal hands. Significant because of the rarity of those able to afford its construction, but it is not made by divine hands.
Radiance on the other hand is something else entirely.
But to the point of the topic, Gods are not so short-sighted as to diminish one of their selfless champions of good over selling Radiance.
The above quote from Iomedae about how the sword is worthless if the heart is not strong is exactly what this was. Let's pretend for a moment that Irabeth sold Radiance to help her lover's suffering and make her happy. That is a selfless act, and a generous one.
"But what about the evil-slaying sword!?"
Where do you think it went? In all their wisdom, where do you think the Gods saw it go? For all that it's worth, if Irabeth possessed Radience and sold it, would it not have been Iomedae's will for that to happen? Part of a grand design?
After all, whose hand did it end up in?
The PCs.
To quote Futurama: "Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch, like a safecracker or a pickpocket.
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
I'm fairly certain Holy Avengers are artifacts"Price 120,630 gp"
It is a weapon of religious significance thouroughly able to be created by non-mythic, mortal hands. Significant because of the rarity of those able to afford its construction, but it is not made by divine hands.
Welp I stand corrected =) What I get for being lazy and not looking it up
Fair enough Terraneaux, i have no clue RL wise whats what regarding her situation. Im just saying to me, FAW (fluff as written) makes gender not important.
I think they intend that to mean "People don't judge other people by their gender" rather than "People don't care what gender they are themselves" or "People don't care if someone feels they were born into the wrong gender body." It's more an equality issue than just not caring about gender at all.
So I'd probably phrase it that gender is still just as important in Golarion, but neither (or none, depending on the race!) is deemed superior to the other in any way.
That's my interpretation, but of course you're free to interpret it however you wish in your own Golarion :)
I think they intend that to mean "People don't judge other people by their gender" rather than "People don't care what gender they are themselves" or "People don't care if someone feels they were born into the wrong gender body."Fair enough Terraneaux, i have no clue RL wise whats what regarding her situation. Im just saying to me, FAW (fluff as written) makes gender not important.
And also that gender does not preclude one from most (though not all) occupations, tasks, classes, and such like. (Women are not restricted to being healers, mages, and archers, for example.)
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this is just kinda throwing me for a head trip. I think its a matter of environment, but all tables ive played at from 1e to 4e have always made a paladin quest to recover his or her holy swords. The blades were never actually theirs, were always given to the churches but wielded by the pally.
we've always used the fluff (i dunno where it originated) that to make a sword "holy" required the willingly given soul of one of the three Good outsiders or a Paladin (as per one of the random encounters in part 3).
The fact that even a non-caster could create a holy sword is kinda awe inspiring, shocking and surprising,and slightly worrysome but vary cool to know. RAW wise its just a what, 29 DC craft:weapon check/spellcraft?
RAW wise though James its allowed?
Klokk, I think you are confusing the holy weapon enhancement with a Holy Avenger, which is a specific weapon which only works fully for Paladins.
Those are two different things, you can find the holy weapon enhancement on page 470 of the CRB and the Holy Avenger on page 473.
Holy Avengers are very special weapons which are very, very unlikely to be found in any kind of magic shop, if only for the reason that there are almost no cities which even offer items of that price range.
A weapon with the holy enchantment is not that different than a flaming or shock weapon.
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The tradition of a paladin questing for a sword is indeed referring to a specific type of weapon—the holy avenger.
The "holy" weapon quality is a much less powerful variant of this. It actually never really existed until 3rd edition as its own thing, in fact. In 2nd and earlier, it was really only the holy avenger.
In Wrath of the Righteous, there actually IS a quest for a paladin to gain a holy avenger—that's the whole Radiance plotline that plays out through the first 4 adventures or so.
Whether or not one can simply walk into a shop and buy any magic item at all is, RAW, left to the GM to decide. In particular, the holy avenger costs 120,630 gp, which is a high enough price that it's not going to be available in most cities anyway.
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Mostly went i straight from 2e to pathfinder.. with a little stop in 3.5 for some eberron. Almost all my current players come straight from 1/2e groups, basically what they know about 3.x systems is what ive taught them over the years.
But never came across anything "holy" in my adventures I must have completely glossed over that Holy type weapons enhancments even exist.
To be honest, I truly didnt know there was any other Holy type weapon beyond the Avenger/Defenders. I guess ive been doing my PCs a huge disservice for the past 13 years..
Thanks for clearing things up.. Hope that helps clear up with i and my players have been so confused.
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Fair enough Terraneaux, i have no clue RL wise whats what regarding her situation. Im just saying to me, FAW (fluff as written) makes gender not important.
I don't want to cause trouble, but I do want to point out that just because it isn't written into the "fluff", doesn't mean that its a not a thing inside the universe.
Do the rules need to address breathing, toiletries, etc for them to exist? No. So just because the fluff doesn't directly discuss gender dysphoria as a thing of great suffering for characters doesn't mean that the character can't suffer from it.
On topic:
I'm so sick of seeing threads about how paladins should "auto-fall" for every little thing :/
It isn't like Irabeth will never be able to fight evil ever again just because her special sword is gone. Its just a sword - she can always fight evil with another.
From another perspective, it was a treasured family heirloom that she was willing to sacrifice for someone she cared deeply for. I'd say that's a mighty big gesture of goodness.
Also, didn't we already have this discussion when Mikaze argued that a true LG paladin would drop her/his sword to adopt goblin babies? 'cause I'm siding with Mikaze on this topic.
So then the pally's in my game could go to the "magic Shop" and buy a +5 Holy Avenger or Holy Defender? If they had enough coin they could literally buy the blade Iomedae used when she was mortal?Only if you the GM let that happen.
Which is my problem with high-magic campaigns, mind you. Considering the time and effort that goes (or should go) into making a magic item, turning around and selling it in a shop seems... trivial. It lessens the impact and meaning of just what it means for something to be a magic item.
Then again, the same could probably be said for an Intelligence 11 Wizard.
As for Radiance, Radiance was probably originally "just" a magic sword. What makes Radiance special is that its wielder was very likely Mythic and took the Legendary Item ability a couple of times. The sword became something greater because of its wielder. And this is still the case - Radiance is a nice blade but isn't uber UNLESS a Mythic Paladin is using it... and uses it to kill a powerful demon. Without those two factors, it remains a decent nice blade but nothing truly special.
So in theory a Chaotic Good Fighter or Barbarian could fight with the blade throughout the entire campaign and never once see the blade become something more. Would that character be doing something evil if he or she decided partway through the campaign to sell Radiance to other crusaders because he or she has come across a better blade?
No.
Is Irabeth a Mythic Paladin?
No. Nor does she have this potential.
So if she sold it to a merchant in her city in Mendev to help someone who truly feels out of sorts with what her physicality is... it wouldn't matter. It's just a sword. It's not special. It has the POTENTIAL to be special... but if that potential was never unlocked, then it would not matter.
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I get that Tangent. My whole confusion with this thread was in a few parts.
1 - I did not know that Holy enhancements to weapons were possible.
2 - I assume that all weapons with the word Holy in them were them same as 1/2e almost Artifacts.
3 - I miss-read a couple parts of book 1 and Assumed that Radiance was the sword that Irabeth sold for a potion.
4 - I could not justify a Paladin selling off an Artifact for any one potion, no matter how bad the need of one person.
5 - I could not justify a Paladin keeping their paladin-hood after that fact.
6 - I didn't realize a PC could in theory buy anything with enough gold.
7 - I assumed some things were beyond price (raw)
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1 & 2 & 3 & 6 were clarified for me.
4 & 5 were not reliant.
7 is up to DM discretion, but RAW allows it.
Thanks to everyone that chimed in to assist.
<takes a bow>
A couple of things. I've done the "giving nice stuff to a lover" thing (including the "giving a lover a gift you can't afford" thing), and it feels much like buying myself nice stuff - it's a pleasure, not a sacrifice at all. It's not at all like giving something valuable (to you) to strangers, or (worse) giving to people whom I find unpleasant. Now, if Irabeth had sold the sword to pay for something for Horgus... I'd be impressed by that. But selling it to pay for something for her lover is not significantly different in my eyes than selling it to pay for something for herself. Which doesn't make her bad, it just makes her human.
The reason I wouldn't make Irabeth a paladin is that I see "paladin" as a job. In the real world there are jobs that only people who are passionate about them do well, and "paladin" seems to me to be that sort of job. Irabeth didn't come across to me as being passionate about being a paladin (possibly because she was an NPC with limited stage time). That's all.
Which gets us into the whole "Awful Good" theme of Paladins who are despised by other players and usually end up dead.
Of course, I'm a GM myself and I interpret things as I want. And I've long had non-standard Paladins (seeing I tend to ignore alignment) and consider Paladins to be God-specific (which means each god's Paladin has different abilities - at least, when I was doing 2nd edition AD&D). Thus I don't see a problem with a Paladin selling her family sword (which is a bit better at killing demons, sure, but still it's just a magic sword) in order to allow her beloved to be the gender she truly feels comfortable with.
Mind you, Irabeth appears to be Anevia-sexual, not lesbian. Her background STATES she did not care one way or the other about Anevia's gender. She loves Anevia, not a woman or a guy who lived a woman's lifestyle because of comfort and spiritual leanings. Thus her selling her family sword was for Anevia, not for herself.
And when you get down to it, she sacrificed a little something that is a tie to her father (who had a loving relationship with her mother - I found that sweet and amusing, especially as in my Runelords campaign I have the half-orc character's mother (a full-blooded orc) living in Sandpoint with her human husband, and being very much in love with him) for someone else that she loved. Are you saying, Thorri, that she should have selfishly kept the blade instead? Or are you saying that if someone has even 1% doubt that they should become a Fallen Paladin?
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A couple of things. I've done the "giving nice stuff to a lover" thing (including the "giving a lover a gift you can't afford" thing), and it feels much like buying myself nice stuff - it's a pleasure, not a sacrifice at all. It's not at all like giving something valuable (to you) to strangers, or (worse) giving to people whom I find unpleasant. Now, if Irabeth had sold the sword to pay for something for Horgus... I'd be impressed by that. But selling it to pay for something for her lover is not significantly different in my eyes than selling it to pay for something for herself. Which doesn't make her bad, it just makes her human.
That's not the best comparison to what went on in the AP. Irabeth didn't just give Anevia some nice stuff. It's not like she hawked her sword to buy Anevia a pretty ring or some nice clothes or something. Irabeth made a personal sacrifice in order to help her wife move past a problem she'd been dealing with since childhood.
A better analogy would be like, selling the family heirlooms to pay for your wife's heart surgery, or to pay for her prosthetic limb.
Edit to add: If someone did for me what Irabeth did for Anevia, I would find it a deeply charitable act, and an act of great kindness. I would be moved and immensely grateful. I'd see it as a sacrifice and acknowledge it as such. And all of that is regardless of how well the person in question knew me, and regardless of whether they felt good about themselves as a result of what they'd done.
Feeling good about helping others doesn't erase the significance of the help you give to others.
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Part of the issues perhaps is that your analogy is flawed there KSF, how is a gender chance on the same level as a fixing or replacing the heart or regrowing a limb that was damaged to someone?
Anevia could have lived the rest of her life the without dieing from being a man.
The person that needed the new heart would have died.
I can kinda see a similarity with the person needing a new limb, but thats just restoring their quality of life to the same it was before.
Perhaps the difference is in viewpoints..
of Good, I see it as putting the community first, not individuals but the whole within the community.
of Evil, I see it as putting the self, or small group of individuals before the whole community.
There is nothing that i could see as that would make this act good, assuming it was the artifact she sold (that id been thinking in all my interaction with you ksf)
Selling just a non-artifact to help Anevia. That is a good act.
Anyother question though. why would irabeth purchase the potion (value what 500g? when she coulda traded the blade for a girdle of femininity/masculinity that would do the same thing? Availability perhaps?
Anyother question though. why would irabeth purchase the potion (value what 500g? when she coulda traded the blade for a girdle of femininity/masculinity that would do the same thing? Availability perhaps?
1) The girdle is cursed, and as such has a chance of removing your gender entirely.
2) The girdle only works when you're wearing it, so it isn't a "permanent" effect.3) The potion is a one-time use, permanent change, so it is an effectively better option in this situation.
As for the rest of your post, I'mma let the trans*folk on the boards field that one, as I'm not qualified to answer any of that.
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Anyother question though. why would irabeth purchase the potion (value what 500g? when she coulda traded the blade for a girdle of femininity/masculinity that would do the same thing? Availability perhaps?
Partially because that's set up as a cursed item and as such doesn't really have a price and we generally don't want to set a precident for selling cursed items as a result.
But 99% of the reason why I had her use an elixir was the fact that I think that the fact that the girdle of femininity/masculinity with its traditions of being a "Cursed Item" is pretty insulting, and I'm not a fan of them and have zero interest in letting a cursed gender changing item show up in an adventure.
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Part of the issues perhaps is that your analogy is flawed there KSF, how is a gender chance on the same level as a fixing or replacing the heart or regrowing a limb that was damaged to someone?
Anevia could have lived the rest of her life the without dieing from being a man.
The person that needed the new heart would have died.
I can kinda see a similarity with the person needing a new limb, but thats just restoring their quality of life to the same it was before.
If Anevia felt the need to transition physically to a female body, then it is highly likely that she was suffering quite a bit in a male one. A long life in the wrong body might qualify as surviving, but I guess Anevia wouldn't consider it living.
Perhaps the difference is in viewpoints..
of Good, I see it as putting the community first, not individuals but the whole within the community.
of Evil, I see it as putting the self, or small group of individuals before the whole community.There is nothing that i could see as that would make this act good, assuming it was the artifact she sold (that id been thinking in all my interaction with you ksf)
Selling just a non-artifact to help Anevia. That is a good act.
What price is too high for a paladin to pay to end a good creature's suffering and allow them to lead a fulfilling good-oriented life, regardless if they are someone the paladin loves or is related to? When does a tool, like a holy sword, become too precious to give up to save one individual? Or two individuals, or a half-dozen, or a village? Being a LG paladin (or cleric) isn't about taking the easy way or the quicker way (by keeping a powerful or artifact-level weapon). And while slaying evil and Evil is part of being a paladin, that doesn't discount the little good deeds and kindnesses they perform everyday.
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That last bit is exactly it. Being a pally is not about the easy route, i see the selling off an artifact for material gain as not a good act. Its the easy route.
Drinking a potion to ease what she considers suffering yet another could consider it blasphemy thinking Irabeth/Anevia knew better then whatever creator god made anevia as to what gender she should be.
I cant see any LG pally thinking that. Its the price for being the ultimate source of goodness and law and order in the universe.
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yet another could consider it blasphemy thinking Irabeth/Anevia knew better then whatever creator god made anevia as to what gender she should be.
1. This is not true in the Golarionverse. Paizo has made that abundantly clear with past coverage of this issue.
2. What someone else thinks is blasphemy or not is irrelevant to a paladin's status. That's between them and their patron - in this case Iomedae. Anyone else can go jump in a lake with their opinions as far as a paladin's divine blessings are concerned.
3. The creator god in question would likely, if anyone, be Pharasma, who herself is non-good, and non-lawful to boot. Also she probably doesn't care all that much, I imagine. Maybe if Irabeth followed Pharasma things might be different... but hey, Pharasma's TN, she doesn't have paladins.
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That last bit is exactly it. Being a pally is not about the easy route, i see the selling off an artifact for material gain as not a good act. Its the easy route.
Drinking a potion to ease what she considers suffering yet another could consider it blasphemy thinking Irabeth/Anevia knew better then whatever creator god made anevia as to what gender she should be.
I'm sure most any paladin or LG cleric who has spent any significant time healing young children would not consider it blasphemy to heal any of the numerous birth defects and other ailments children unluckily happen to be born with.
I cant see any LG pally thinking that. Its the price for being the ultimate source of goodness and law and order in the universe.
I can't see many experienced LG paladins or clerics having the hubris to believe that any creature, short of the Greater Powers, unfailingly knows what is the Ultimate Good. And a WIS check should be enough to remind them of the dangers of ignoring suffering and harm of an individual/a few as "lesser" evils in pursuit of the Greater Good of the Many and how it usually leads to a Fall.
edit: Ninja'd