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Here is a guide to make you a level 7 hellknight with the retraining rules.
(Maybe you should fix the retraining rules?)
Level your charakter(with full Bab) to lvl 5.
take one level hellknight prestige class as you qualify for.
now use the retraining level rule -1 level with full Bab then you still qualify for hellknight so take the new level as hellknight so you are now lvl 4 full bab and 2 hellknight.
repeat untill you now are lvl 6 hellknight lvl 0 other class.
this will cost you some PP in PFS and some gold but it is worth it.
can any of you find a statement that this is not legal?
... which is only checked ONCE, when first taking the class.
By RAW, there is nothing wrong with this. RAI, however...
Looks legal to me.
They did allow the Half-Orc to take the Scarred Witch Doctor archetype recently...
can any of you find a statement that this is not legal?
There is was a huge thread about this in the PFS forums. As far as I know Michael Brock has not weight in on it. But be prepared for GM to not allow your character at the table. I got the feeling by reading the thread (assuming that the thread would have proper sample size of GMs to represent the community as a whole, which it probably doesnt) that a majority of GMs would not allow this type of character at their table.
Talk to your DM about it. If its for PFS I would talk to your local Venture captain/lieutenant to see what they think.
Oh, it'd be a cold day in Hell before such a build got approval from me. Just pointing out that RAW is pretty wonky and really don't matter much, since the intent is exceedingly clear: You can't take any prestige class levels before you have reached a certain character level. Now, if someone was, say, Fighter 7/Hellknight 1 and wanted to retrain fighter levels into ranger, I'd be fine with that.
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So the point of this thread was that if you read the rules with the intent to break them you can find things that don't work as intended?
Color me surprised
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So the point of this thread was that if you read the rules with the intent to break them you can find things that don't work as intended?
I think it was more like:
If you read the rules and purposefully choose to interpret them incorrectly because they didn't choose to make the 578 Core rulebook 1345 pages, then you can break lots of things.
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They did allow the Half-Orc to take the Scarred Witch Doctor archetype recently...
In Chapter 2, nothing from the catfolk, drow, hobgoblins, kobolds, orcs, and ratfolk entries are currently legal for play.
Ha, I had to make sure that was still there after reading that, since I first thought you meant that was about PFS.
Hellknights gain no proficiency in weapons or armor. To take Hellknight you have to be proficient in Heavy Armor. You wouldn't be able to retrain your first level in Hellknight.
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-Is it reasonable by RAW?
Ayupp. Nothing that outright prohibits it.
Only if you don't read the rules.
...If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or ability you have, you can't use that feat, preatige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.
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So by RAW? Totally doable, although not exactly how OP thinks it works.
If you retrain to Level 1 Fighter and Level 6 Hellknight, you don't meet the pre-reqs of Hellknight with level 1 Fighter and then are denied access to your 6 levels of Hellknight until you gain the pre-req again (by retaining levels of Hellknight into levels of Fighter)
So by RAW totally not doable.
If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class.
In other words, LazarX and others are correct. Before you can take your first level in a PrC, you must already meet all requirements; you cannot qualify for a prestige class using something that would be granted or gained in the same level you would start the PrC.
If a PrC grants +1 BAB but requires that you have a +6 BAB to enter, you cannot be at +5 at one level and then take the first level of PrC. You must have a +6 BAB and then you can take your first level in the PrC.
From a pedantic reading of RAW, there's some ambiguity on whether you must maintain those requirements after taking the first level in the PrC. I believe the intention is clear, however: The requirements for the class must be permanently maintained once you enter the class - and that would include during retraining.
Well, assuming you maintain the requirments, I am yet to see a quote saying PRCs cant qualify for themselves.
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Well, assuming you maintain the requirments, I am yet to see a quote saying PRCs cant qualify for themselves.
Which will often happen when you go on a particularly rare and dark corner of the rules. If you take the lack of a direct rebuttal of your position in the rules as acceptance of your position in the rules, you have failed to properly interpret the rules.
It's not a simple question, honestly.
First off, the rules of what you need to take the first level of the prestige class are clear: You need those things BEFORE taking the first prestige class level. After that, there is nothing preventing you from doing so in that rule.
Second, the retraining rules state that you still need to maintain whatever to be able to use the new option. This patently does not solve the issue of keeping up stuff to still qualify, for example through the prestige class levels themselves.
So, by RAW, there IS NO PROBLEM with doing this. If you wanted some way to limit these things, what would it look like? You could say "no skill ranks or other bonuses gotten from the prestige class itself can count when checking the prerequisites", which would force everyone to maintain a proper count of WHEN they got each skill rank etc. Thank you, retraining rules. Note that you could still have two prestige classes provide the prerequisites for one another, or a thousand different corrupt builds, so I'd hesitate to call the issue settled that way. Would "you need to keep all the levels you needed to qualify for the prestige class" work better? Not really. You're still supposed to be able to retrain, say, a fighter level to a ranger level, so long as you maintain the prereqs. Seriously, it gets very complicated very fast.
One of the basic problems is that what the prerequisites were meant to do was set a minimum level for taking a prestige class, but they weren't allowed to do that according to 3.0 terminology, so they used skill ranks instead, giving us this headache down the line.
A suggestion, then: "When you retrain class levels and have a prestige class, you must keep as many levels in a base class as you needed to take the prestige class, as well as keeping the other prerequisites". This is a simple figure, easily checked, and requires no more bookkeeping. It will not solve every question for you, but it doesn't complicate the issue too badly. So, if you need lvl 6 fighter as the fastest possible route to Hellknight 1, you need thereafter to maintain 6 base class levels, while also keeping your BAB etc at the required levels. Even if you later change all those levels to wizard levels, and keep your BAB up from the Hellknight levels.
The point is that you shouldn't get prestige classes too early, even through retraining, and this solves that issue.
Finally, retraining is a process meant to be used, representing changing your focus to another skill set. I am not entirely sure why it's a bad thing that someone abandons his former fighter training to be ONLY a Hellknight, but I can appreciate the possible balance issues.
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Im pretty sure its possible to get 10 levels of hellknight and 10 levels of celestial knight by retraining.
While I think that is cheesy as hell and wouldn't allow a PC in a home game to be such a jerk, it would be compliant with RAW but would take a significant investment of money and time.
So, by RAW, there IS NO PROBLEM with doing this.Again, this is by your reading of the RAW. My reading of the RAW is you lose the PrC once you don't qualify for it without itself.
Can you then link where you read that a PrC cant qualify for itself?
Before you say that a lack of a direct rebuttal isnt enough. But it is. Its specific vs general and raw vs rai.
Generally all you need to get into the prc is the bab, and some skill points. Unless somethings rebuts that, then thats the ggeneral rule. Thatd is RAW. Granted, rai you can argue pretty successfully that its not intended. But RAW states that as long as you fulfull the requirments, you can take levels. If there is nothing to invalidate that, then THATS how it is.
Any alignment based prc, class, or archetype requires u to fulfill the requirements to gain the benefits of the class, and at every new level, u need to still be the right alignment to switch classes. Same with feats and prc's that you may get by having a magic item (like stat increase, etc..., that are automatically repealed when you lose enough of that stat from losing the item. You may also temporarily lose qualifications from ability score damage or drain.
Why is armor proficiency any different?
Can always grab armor proficiency in a feat if needed.
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Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.
A character must meet specific prerequisites before deciding to take levels in a prestige class.
If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or ability you have, you can't use that feat, preatige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.
The glossary points you to this Pre-requisite section for general rules on pre-req. Feats have pre-requisites like Stat values, which can be lost. So they detail what happens if you lose the pre-requisites.
In core, Prestige classes don't have "take or use" but generally you can't lose the prerequisities for a PrC.
The UC book doesn't allow you to use a PrC you no longer qualify.
If you choose to say that a direct prohibition in the rules to your tactic is RAW then you are saying essentially "because the rule book isn't 1500 pages long I can do anything I want because there is no rule saying I can't do it."
So, which pre reqs do you lose upon retraining? Its not the BAB. Its not the skill points. What do you lose to make you stop qualifying.
It really isn't rocket science. The skill and bab requirements are there for a reason. Setting the minimum level for the prc. If your retraining would get you the prc at a lower level than intended then it likely is not a legal retrain.
So by using the word intended you are saying that RAI its not right? And I agree.
But RAW the PRC gives you BAB, never actually disqualifying you.
So, which pre reqs do you lose upon retraining? Its not the BAB. Its not the skill points. What do you lose to make you stop qualifying.
Well, in the case of Hellknight Signifier, you fail to meet the "Ability to cast 3rd-level spells". The HS does not gain any ability to cast spells on its own, but instead advances your ability to cast spells in another class. So an HS that retrained all of its levels to HS could no longer cast spells.
As to Hellknight proper, it does not gain Heavy Armor Proficiency, which is a requirement. You could burn three feats to regain it, I suppose - seems sort of a waste, though, since the PrC doesn't grant any bonus feats so you're working with only your odd-level feats that all characters get.
You also could lose the BAB, by the way. A 5th level Fighter who tries to retain into Hellknight would wind up a 5th level character with 0 class levels.
Why do I say that? The rules say that if you fail to meet the prerequisite for a PrC, you don't gain the benefits of that PrC until you do so; they also state that before you can take your first level of a PrC, you must meet the prerequisites.
So our 5th level Fighter has a BAB of +5. He decides to retrain a level. He wants to retrain Figther 4\HK 1. The problem is that Fighter 4 leaves him with a +4 BAB - and he can't gain the +1 BAB from HK because at the point when he is 'taking' the level in the class, he doesn't meet the prerequisites.
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So, which pre reqs do you lose upon retraining? Its not the BAB. Its not the skill points. What do you lose to make you stop qualifying.
You can't qualify for something with itself. A level 6 Hellknight (and no other class levels) has a bab of +0 and no skill points and doesn't qualify to take hellknight levels which makes it an illegal character.
So, which pre reqs do you lose upon retraining? Its not the BAB. Its not the skill points. What do you lose to make you stop qualifying.You can't qualify for something with itself. A level 6 Hellknight (and no other class levels) has a bab of +0 and no skill points and doesn't qualify to take hellknight levels which makes it an illegal character.
Hrm, not true actually. The HK progression chart shows that it's a full BAB PrC. It gains BAB just like any base, core, or alternate class.
I do agree with your basic premise, btw - the intent of the rules is that you cannot qualify for a PrC using the PrC itself; the fact that the rules state that you must meet the prerequisites before taking your first level in the PrC makes that pretty clear (and yes, I disagree with the idea that it only means the first level, and afterward you can drop the prerequisites).
But the HK does get BAB; hypothetically, if there were a PrC that required +10 BAB, then a Fighter 6\HK 4 could qualify for it.
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must meet the prerequisites before taking your first level in the PrC makes that pretty clear (and yes, I disagree with the idea that it only means the first level, and afterward you can drop the prerequisites).
My message was meant to illustrate this point. That you can't gain any of the benefits (as if you never took the class) until you qualify for it. If you retrain into a state where without the Hellknight levels you wouldn't qualify for the Hellknight then you are in a state where you don't qualify for Hellknight and can't take those levels. In effect, and illegal build.
must meet the prerequisites before taking your first level in the PrC makes that pretty clear (and yes, I disagree with the idea that it only means the first level, and afterward you can drop the prerequisites).My message was meant to illustrate this point. That you can't gain any of the benefits (as if you never took the class) until you qualify for it. If you retrain into a state where without the Hellknight levels you wouldn't qualify for the Hellknight then you are in a state where you don't qualify for Hellknight and can't take those levels. In effect, and illegal build.
I didn't read your post that way originally, but gotcha, and agreed.
So, which pre reqs do you lose upon retraining? Its not the BAB. Its not the skill points. What do you lose to make you stop qualifying.You can't qualify for something with itself. A level 6 Hellknight (and no other class levels) has a bab of +0 and no skill points and doesn't qualify to take hellknight levels which makes it an illegal character.Unfortunately your not doing a good enough job of making your claim.
6 levels of hellknight yields +6 BAB and 2 + int per level of hellknight. It says in the class description.
When you take the first level of hellknight and meet the prerequisites, and continue to maintain the stats necessary, you don't loose it.
I agree as well. If qualify to take it, you can take it after 6 levels in a full BAB class. You are now lvl 5 (lets say fighter) and lvl 1 hellknight.
You now start retraining.You are lvl 4/2 You still have the bab, skill points and proficiency to qualify.
Then you are 3/3 same as above
Then 2/4 same as above
Then 1/5 same as above
Then 0/6 But hold on... you dont have heavy armor prof now. Oh well... you guys said its what? 3 feats? Level 1 feat, human bonus feat, and a lvl 3 feat being heavy prof.
BOOM!!! You are done. You still have 6 BAB, 6 lvls worth of skill points, and the armor prof.
Edit: NOWHERE (that I can see) do you need to be able to qualify "as if you didnt take the PRC"
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NOWHERE (that I can see) do you need to be able to qualify "as if you didnt take the PRC"
This requires a pedantic reading of the rules, something that the rules are not written in a way that your reading is reasonable.
If you have no levels of something else, then you have no BAB and don't qualify to take your levels. So your character has an illegal class level.
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I think he is trying to pass RAI for RAW.
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I actually think that would be a "specific" rule. And since it doesnt exist, you default to normal rules, where you qualify with BAB, skill points and armor proficiency.
I actually wonder (since i dont have books ad use PrD), does it say that PrC's can be used to qualify for other PrC's? Because by your logic, if it doesnt say that exact thing (PrC A can qualify you for PrC B), then taking multiple PrC's is a B***.
What I mean is that PF works on the "if its not mentioned, use default" rule. So if its NOT mentioned that PrC's cant qualify for itself, then by default, its grouped with "base" and "core" classes that obviously CAN qualify for PrC's.
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But here we are talking mostly RAW, because one GM might rule this is fine, and another might not.