Retraining, Ultimate Campaign, Mystic Theurge.

[Xorran]

Here's my question, in Ultimate Campaign, under the retraining rules, it says that you can retrain class levels, even into prestige class levels. And as long as you still qualify for the prestige class, you can still use the abilities of said prestige class.
So, example: I just hit character level 7, Wizard-3, Cleric-3, Mystic Theurge-1, I then retrain a Wizard level to a Mystic Theurge level, making me a Wizard-2, Cleric-3, Mystic Theurge-2. Still able to cast both 3rd level arcane and divine spells, I then decide to retrain my remaining Wizard and Cleric levels, except for 1, into Mystic Theurge, in the end, becoming Wizard-1, Cleric-1, Mystic Theurge-5.
As written, since I'm still able to cast 3rd level arcane and divine spells, I should retain all my Mystic Theurge abilities, and continue leveling up my Mystic Theurge levels from there. Not even needing to put any more levels into Wizard or Cleric.
Am I correct in this reading of the rules? Or is there something wrong with this?

[Ughbash]

Yes, that is correct. It was also able to bedone in 3.5 though it was a little harder to retrain classes.

Bear in mind that you can still only take 10 levels fo Mystic Theurge by level 20. This means you get a little more out of it at the early levels, but at the upper levels you are still the same (though you could go sorcerer 9 oracle 1 MT 10 via retraining). You still can not land 9th level spells of both types without Esoteric Training.

[Weirdo]

You can't use the levels of the prestige class to qualify for the prestige class.

Think of retraining as a two-step process: (1) drop ability X (2) Gain ability Y. If after step 1 you don't qualify for feature Y, you can't take it.

The process should never produce a character that couldn't have been built up naturally level by level.

[Ughbash]

Your first statement is not true. Now if you said the level you are taking for a prestige class will not let you qualify I would agree. For example a level 2 wizard level 2 cleric could not take a level in MT to have second level casting in each.

I agree with yor second statement though.

So example lets say you are a 3rd level wizard, 3rd level cleric, first level mystic thurge.

You drop your third level of wizard however since you have 2 levels of wizard and 1 level fo mystic thurge you still qualify for mystic thurge, and then you train your second level of msytic thurge.

I belive this was answered (albeit back in D&D) with rebuilding rules that allwoed you to rebuld yor 12th level toon as a cleric 1/wizard 1/MT 10. They said at the end of the rebuidling process you had to qualify for everything.

[anthonydido]

You cannot use D&D rules to clarify Pathfinder rules. They are different rules sets and different games.

I believe the intent is that, for instance, if you were Wizard 1/Ranger 8/Arcane Archer 2 you could retrain 2 of the Ranger levels to Arcane Archer, but no more than that because you still need to have base classes to qualify for the prestige class to begin with.

[Ughbash]

The rules never say you can not. By RAW you can. Considering their recent choices of SLA allowing ot qualify for classes I suspect that RAI would allow it also.

Now if you can point out anywhere in the rules wher it says you can not I will agree with you, but as the retraining rules now stand they are legal.

[anthonydido]

Ultimate Campaign wrote:

...If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or ability you have, you can't use that feat, preatige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.

There's where it says you can't. As Weirdo already stated, you can't use a prestige class to qualify for a prestige class. What makes you think that you can? Does retraining all of a sudden remove any need to qualify for the prestige class to begin with?

[Morgen]

Yeah, this is a whole can of worms because it isn't spelt out in huge mechanical details exactly what order what happens and so forth.

Well it would except that the retraining rules are a completely optional system that every campaign gets to decide to include or not.

So if your GM wants to let you do that using this completely optional system then your welcome to do it. If they do not wish to allow you to do that and yet are using this optional rule system then you cannot. Easy.

Is it intended to be allowed or not allowed? No idea. I don't have any issue with it as honestly most prestige classes give you next to nothing to level them up and your trading in more useful class features most of the time to do this, much as a lot of the SLA pre-req builds were showing.

[voska66]

Sounds like you can do this to me.

Under Prestige class in the Core Rule books it says the Following:

"Unlike the core classes, characters must meet specific requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class."

So this only apply when taking the first level in a prestige class. As long as you have the first level it should work fine.

Then under Retraining:

"If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again. (You can still retrain that feat, prestige class, or other ability.)"

Technically you still qualify and you aren't taking you 1st level of the prestige class. So the should work.

[anthonydido]

I think that is taking the wording too literally. It says "first" level because you can't start at level 2 or 3 or 4, etc.

[Ughbash]

anthonydido wrote:

Ultimate Campaign wrote:

...If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or ability you have, you can't use that feat, preatige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.

There's where it says you can't. As Weirdo already stated, you can't use a prestige class to qualify for a prestige class. What makes you think that you can? Does retraining all of a sudden remove any need to qualify for the prestige class to begin with?

And as I pointed out to weirdo he still qualifued. It matters WHEN you do it. It does not say that the prestige class does not qualify you for it.

Now where this would apply would be if you were a first level fighter, 10th level eldritch knight, 9th level wizard and you wanted to retrain your fighter into wizard. Since Eldritch knight does not give you proficency in all martial weapons you could not train out fighter because you would no longer qualify for Eldritch KNight.

In the case of the MT however once you have a level of MT, if you trade out a level of cleric or wizard you still qualify due to the MT counting for caster levels.

Another example would be Arcane Trickster, it requires 2d6 sneak attack so you will usualy have 3 levels of rogue to get into the class. By fourth level of Arcane trickster you could trade out yor rogue levels and your arcane tricketer levels woud qualify you for it.

Nowhere that it has been quoted says that the abilities you pick up for your prestige class do not count, it only states you must qualify.

If you disagree since we seem to be talking past each other, might I suggest you hit the FAQ. My guess is that it is RAI not only RAW. They may decide however that they did not intend for that to happen and correct it. I Faq'd the original post.

[Weirdo]

The general issue here is "can I use retraining to gain abilities I couldn't have qualified for at the time I took the ability I'm losing, but do qualify for now?" And the retraining rules have this to say:

Ultimate Campaign wrote:

Retraining a class feature means you lose the old class feature and gain a new one that you could otherwise qualify for at that point in your level advancement. For example, if you want to retrain your paladin's fatigued mercy (which she gained at 3rd level), you can replace it only with another mercy from the 3rd-level list. If at 6th level you learned the sickened mercy (which is on the 3rd-level list), you may replace it with a mercy from the 3rd- or 6th-level list (because you are replacing a 6th-level mercy slot which you spent on a 3rd-level mercy).

Now, this specifically deals with class features, but I think it establishes fairly conclusively the fact that retraining is not meant to be a way to get around level limitations on character abilities.

[Mudfoot]

One could argue that you can't retrain a Wiz3 / Clr3 / MT1 to ...MT2, but you could retrain a Wiz3 / Clr3 / MT2 to ...MT3 because losing the 1 level of Wiz or Clr still leaves you all the necessary prereqs. So just wait a level and all is well.

But really, leave it to the DM. I'd allow it, albeit with some requirement for extra time because you're not quite doing it by the book.

[wraithstrike]

The intent is not that hard to figure out. If you try to retrain a normal class level into a PrC level that you did actually need to qualify for the PrC don't be sad when the GM says no.

When the statblock is set and done everything still has to work out so having 1 level of cleric and wizard, along with 10 level of MT is not going to work.

Now before someone brings up the idea that SLA's might allow something similar and they don't break the game..---> I am not discussing what is or is not broken. I am saying you must qualify, and wiz2/cleric2 does not qualify.

I already see we will have to get this one FAQ'd. smdh...

[Sean K Reynolds]

Weirdo and Wraithstrike are correct.

[LazarX]

There's a very simple guideline to follow in this.

You can't retrain your progression into a progression you could not have made by retraining. In other words, your post retraining progression would have had to have been legal as a normal progression.

[Tamago]

LazarX wrote:

There's a very simple guideline to follow in this.

You can't retrain your progression into a progression you could not have made by retraining. In other words, your post retraining progression would have had to have been legal as a normal progression.

Not entirely. For example, suppose I have a Fighter with a feat progression like this:

L1: Skill Focus: Profession (Lawyer)
L1 (bonus): Dodge
L2 (bonus): Mobility
L3: Weapon Focus: Rapier

When I hit level four, I take Spring Attack as my 4th-level fighter bonus feat. I meet all the prerequisites for it (Dodge, Mobility, and BAB +4).

Then I decide to retrain. I spend the time and gold, and swap out my Skill Focus feat for Weapon Specialization. This is legal according to the retraining rules:

the rules wrote:

When you use retraining to replace some aspect of your character, you must meet all prerequisites, requirements, and considerations for whatever you're trying to acquire.

The prerequisites for Weapon Specialization are: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Fighter level 4th. At the time of the retraining, I meet all the prerequisites, and thus can take the feat.

At the end of all this, I end up with a character who has both Spring Attack and Weapon Specialization at level 4, which would not be possible without retraining (because both of those feats require me to be 4th level before I can take them). However, the build is still legal (assuming I paid the time and GP cost for the retrain).

[Major Longhorn]

Sean, game designer, agreed with Wraithstrike and Weirdo.

So the way to take it is :"I rebuild my character, level by level".

It was meant to be able to use the new options even if you had a high lvl character and rebuild the character in order to use these new options

Not cheating the rules qualifying for feats, spells and so on. IT would be like saying for a wizard 20th "I drop the first 19 wizard levels for fighter levels and keep my 20th level wizard for spells lvl 9".

Of course I push it too far but basically that could almost be like it.

Anyway... Sean ruled it. Final point.

[René P]

I agree with Tomago, and this kind of retraining isn't new. Fighters have been doing it from the start.

[Pathfinder Design Team]

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gn#v5748eaic9r9e

Retraining: Can I retrain out of my base classes and use my prestige class levels to meet the requirements for that prestige class?

No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).

Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.

Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.

[Pathfinder Design Team]

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gn#v5748eaic9r9h

Retraining: Can I retrain a feat to replace it with a feat I didn't qualify for at the level I originally gained that feat?

Yes. As long as the new feat is a valid feat for your current character, you can retrain the old feat and replace it with the new feat.

For example, if you are a 3rd-level rogue who took Improved Initiative at 1st level, you can retrain that feat and replace it with Weapon Focus. Even though Weapon Focus has a prerequisite of "base attack bonus +1" (which means you couldn't take it as a 1st-level rogue), it is a valid feat for your current level (3rd), and is therefore a valid choice for retraining.

(Note: Likewise, the fighter class ability to retrain fighter bonus feats does not require you to meet all of the new feat's prerequisites at the level you originally gained the feat.)