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Firstly, I want to thank the PACG team for a great game. The hype surrounding the game prior to release was palpable, and to my surprise and in my opinion, lives up to that hype. However, the launch of the game wasn’t without its editorial mistakes. Over the past few weeks several typos have been discovered in the base game, some minor, some noteworthy. With the cards for the entire Adventure Path already printed, we can safely assume that the base set isn’t the only thing susceptible to misprints but also the expansions.
With several posts by Vic Wertz stating that there are no intentions of providing corrected cards, I was left wondering why. If more misprints are discovered among future releases will there be a threshold where enough is enough? It's not that they exist that bothers me--the board gaming industry is rife with these kinds of things--it's the stance that firmly stated you have no intention of providing corrected versions of these cards.
This is poor customer service. Almost any time I've had component issues with a company, I've been able to reach out to them and get proper replacements (the most recent being Earth Reborn and Elder Sign).
Marking on your own cards IS NOT a proper solution. My poor handwriting would only serve to mar the surface and produce an aesthetic gap between the misprints and the other cards. I'd rather just have the FAQ beside me to reference and hope I don't overlook or forget a detail. Admittedly I'm a bit OCD. I've ALWAYS taken great care of my material possessions, not just because I want to keep them looking nice for as long as possible but also because of potential resale value.
There exists a camp of people who have taken a passive approach to these misprints, but please don’t assume that there’s not an even larger camp that doesn't. I really hope that Paizo might reconsider the prospect of including corrected cards in a future adventure pack or separate shipment from customer service. It shouldn't fall onto the customers, who support the game, to provide their own remedies, whether that's scribbling on the cards, or spending extra money on the game, printing high quality replacements from Kinko's.
I have planned to invest in this game over the next year by subscribing to the game via your website. With my future support in tow, I hope you respond in kind, and provide your own support for the game by fixing what should have been correct the first time around.
This is a $60.00 game, replacing a few cards shouldn’t break the company. It's not like you have to replace plastic miniatures or anything of that nature. Cards are printed out in large sheets and then cut. Yes, it would cost money, and I understand the adage “there’s no such thing as a free lunch,” but it would also make the customers happy. The long-term benefit outweighs the cost. Customer satisfaction is everything. If this is taken care of properly, I'll be a paizo customer for the foreseeable future.
While I do not believe the number of cards with misprints is great enough at this time to warrant replacements, I understand the worry about the future sets. I would be willing to wait and see how the next few sets come out and, should there be a significant number of cards that are misprinted, I would also like to have replacements.
I don't think replacement cards are necessary. Seems unnecessary to me.
Yeah, I agree with Ironburn. Either write on them, or print a label to put over them. I just wrote on mine with Sharpie. This is not a collectible card game where certain mint-condition cards are going to be worth money... it's just a game.
You are right, in the end, it is just a game. BUT, I take very good care of my games. They are something that my family and I enjoy and part of that enjoyment is the game itself. Not how it plays, but how it looks and feels.
With that in mind, writing on my cards with a sharpy does not seem like a great option. The simple fact is that some of the cards were published with errors, and us as the paying customers and subscribers should expect those errors to be corrected.
This applies to any situation where you are the customer and you have been delivered a faulty product. --Note here Paizo folks. The game is great and I love it. Overall you guys did a fantastic job--
For most folks, it is a simple question of scale. You wouldn't slap duct tape on a cracked dashboard in the new card you bought. You would ask the car dealership to fix it. That's because it is a large expensive purchase and this card game, in the grand scheme of things, is not.
But, to those of us who like the look and the feel of the game as well as count sterling customer service as a plus. Getting reprints of cards in error is par for the course.
As a good example, look at Fantasy Flight Games. They publish great games, and every one that I have ever owned eventually came out with reprints to replace bad cards.
I appreciate everyone has their own threshold for when they really want something fixed. I fall on the side of the OP on this one.
--Again Paizo folks, great game--
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This applies to any situation where you are the customer and you have been delivered a faulty product. --Note here Paizo folks. The game is great and I love it. Overall you guys did a fantastic job--
For most folks, it is a simple question of scale. You wouldn't slap duct tape on a cracked dashboard in the new card you bought. You would ask the car dealership to fix it. That's because it is a large expensive purchase and this card game, in the grand scheme of things, is not.
It's not even a matter of scale, it's a matter of getting what you paid for. If I go to the grocery store and accidentally buy a 75 cent container of yogurt that's been punctured, I can easily bring it back to the store and get a replacement for it, even though it's a fraction of the cost of a car. That's because there's an understanding that eating food from damaged containers can potentially be dangerous and customers have the expectation that when they buy food it's safe to eat. Most food suppliers will honor that expectation.
I think the car analogy is misplaced. I would put this more in line with typos in a book, or minor bugs in software. When you buy a book and it has a few typos in it (most books do!), do you expect the publisher to provide you a new one? Or software... a lot of software has minor bugs that don't impair functionality. While developers usually try to patch minor bugs like that, there comes a point where it becomes impractical for them to waste resources correcting every last bug. In those cases, I would say that even though there's minor faults with the product, I still received what I paid for.
I think it's a similar situation with PACG. I just don't think Paizo *owes* it to me to replace the handful of misprinted cards. The game "works" out of the box, and as long as the game isn't physically damaged, I have no expectation of them replacing any cards. It would be amazingly awesome if they did print replacement cards, but I do not need them to play the game.
But, to those of us who like the look and the feel of the game as well as count sterling customer service as a plus. Getting reprints of cards in error is par for the course.
As a good example, look at Fantasy Flight Games. They publish great games, and every one that I have ever owned eventually came out with reprints to replace bad cards.
Is it really par for the course? Sure FFG may reprint updated cards, but that just puts them above and beyond a lot of other game publishers. There's plenty of errata'ed cards in MTG (to a name a big card game) that never got reprints. I can point to plenty of other publishers that don't normally issue reprints for misprinted cards.
I would gladly pay postage, or even a small fee for corrected cards. I am cringing every time I have to look at my new cards/game with hand written corrections on them.
"Duct Tape holding up a bumper" is the perfect analogy, as said above.
My latest friend to try the game, about freaked out when he saw the writing on one card. "You wrote on your cards!".
I think the car analogy is misplaced. I would put this more in line with typos in a book, or minor bugs in software. When you buy a book and it has a few typos in it (most books do!), do you expect the publisher to provide you a new one? Or software... a lot of software has minor bugs that don't impair functionality. While developers usually try to patch minor bugs like that, there comes a point where it becomes impractical for them to waste resources correcting every last bug. In those cases, I would say that even though there's minor faults with the product, I still received what I paid for.
I think it's a similar situation with PACG. I just don't think Paizo *owes* it to me to replace the handful of misprinted cards. The game "works" out of the box, and as long as the game isn't physically damaged, I have no expectation of them replacing any cards. It would be amazingly awesome if they did print replacement cards, but I do not need them to play the game....
With a book, you can't simply replace one page, you would have to replace the entire book. No one is asking for a brand new copy of the game, just a few pages with typos to be replaced. Book publishers would jump at an opportunity for that kind of quality control.
I don't think the software analogy has a place in this conversation, it is a digital product. Patches and compatibility updates are expected, and for free. EDIT (Yes even boxed software these days comes out of the box requiring a patch before it works "as intended")
If people accept that paying a premium price for a product that doesn't adhere to premium quality (distribution wise, concept and execution is astounding) then other companies will push that boundary until it's consumer base and profits suffers, only then will it rebound to the last acceptable position.
Reprints needed, that's for sure. There are so many cards needing fixes just in the base set its sorta sad.
With a book, you can't simply replace one page, you would have to replace the entire book. No one is asking for a brand new copy of the game, just a few pages with typos to be replaced. Book publishers would jump at an opportunity for that kind of quality control.
I don't think the software analogy has a place in this conversation, it is a digital product. Patches and compatibility updates are expected, and for free. EDIT (Yes even boxed software these days comes out of the box requiring a patch before it works "as intended")
If people accept that paying a premium price for a product that doesn't adhere to premium quality (distribution wise, concept and execution is astounding) then other companies will push that boundary until it's consumer base and profits suffers, only then will it rebound to the last acceptable position.
I realize my analogies have their own flaws, but I guess the point I was trying to make was this: I have no expectation of absolute perfection when I purchase an entertainment product, whether it's a DVD, a card/board game, a video game, a book, etc. I think it's reasonable to expect a minimum level of functionality with these things, but these things always have at least some form of minor imperfections. As long as those imperfections don't impair my ability to enjoy the product, I can live with them.
The minor card errors in the PACG at this point are definitely not drastic enough to impair my enjoyment of the game. But I realize different people have different thresholds of what they deem acceptable.
I think the car analogy is misplaced. I would put this more in line with typos in a book, or minor bugs in software. When you buy a book and it has a few typos in it (most books do!), do you expect the publisher to provide you a new one? Or software... a lot of software has minor bugs that don't impair functionality. While developers usually try to patch minor bugs like that, there comes a point where it becomes impractical for them to waste resources correcting every last bug. In those cases, I would say that even though there's minor faults with the product, I still received what I paid for.
I think it's a similar situation with PACG. I just don't think Paizo *owes* it to me to replace the handful of misprinted cards. The game "works" out of the box, and as long as the game isn't physically damaged, I have no expectation of them replacing any cards. It would be amazingly awesome if they did print replacement cards, but I do not need them to play the game....
With a book, you can't simply replace one page, you would have to replace the entire book. No one is asking for a brand new copy of the game, just a few pages with typos to be replaced. Book publishers would jump at an opportunity for that kind of quality control.
I don't think the software analogy has a place in this conversation, it is a digital product. Patches and compatibility updates are expected, and for free. EDIT (Yes even boxed software these days comes out of the box requiring a patch before it works "as intended")
If people accept that paying a premium price for a product that doesn't adhere to premium quality (distribution wise, concept and execution is astounding) then other companies will push that boundary until it's consumer base and profits suffers, only then will it rebound to the last acceptable position.
That is exactly the issue. Well said.
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I really don't like the idea of writing on cards, I have poor penmanship and tend to make mistake.
So for the cards that had really big mistakes, I used a label maker to stick over the text I wanted to change.
For example, in the case of the Detect Magic card, I printed out a 4 using the smallest text and then cut out just that number and stuck it over the 14.
The labels are really thin and doesn't appear to affect shuffling. It's just a little tricky cutting out a small letter on a label. Tweezers would have probably helped.
This is probably the next best thing to replacement cards. Down the line it would be nice to purchase a reprint of corrected cards. But I know that may not be cost effective. I'd prefer you spent the money on improving the quality on future releases.
Reprints needed, that's for sure. There are so many cards needing fixes just in the base set its sorta sad.IMO there are really only a few cards out of ~600 that have significant enough of errata to warrant a reprint. But I would certainly like new versions of those cards.
Indeed. Some of the cards in the FAQ are just clarifications, some of which weren't even needed as they were just reiterating the implied effect.
Still, though, there are several cards that do need it, as they are affected in significant ways.
I realize my analogies have their own flaws, but I guess the point I was trying to make was this: I have no expectation of absolute perfection when I purchase an entertainment product, whether it's a DVD, a card/board game, a video game, a book, etc. I think it's reasonable to expect a minimum level of functionality with these things, but these things always have at least some form of minor imperfections. As long as those imperfections don't impair my ability to enjoy the product, I can live with them.
The minor card errors in the PACG at this point are definitely not drastic enough to impair my enjoyment of the game. But I realize different people have different thresholds of what they deem acceptable.
Ninja, I don't expect perfection in every service or product I buy either. However, when I find a defect in that product or service, I do go to whoever supplied it and say, 'Hey, can you fix this?'
And some of those typos do actually make a difference. Detect Magic anyone?
I am not asking for a new game. All I am asking for is a reprint of known misprinted cards. I don't have to have them today, but having a plan to replace them in the future will suffice.
I pointed out FFG for a reason. They go to the top of the customer service and support list. And shouldn't we, as customers, want everyone else to be as conscientious as FFG rather than pointing to them as the anomaly?
We, as consumers, deserve to get what we paid for. When I bought the game and subscribed, there was not a little asterisk that said 'up to some percentage of the cards in this game will be misprinted.'
Accepting the defects as the norm rather than asking the company we are paying to step up and fix a problem (small as it may be)that is solely their fault is simply allowing their company to ignore a customer service obligation.
Whether or not you think it is a big problem or a very minor problem, it is still a problem, and a company should pride itself on making it's products as close to perfection as possible and fixing the things that aren't.
--Again, to all Paizo folks. The game is great and fun to play. My hats off to you for design and fun factor. Just reprint some cards :)--
Developer
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Let's keep the personal attacks off this thread (and these boards altogether). Feel free to provide feedback to Paizo about the game or what you feel is acceptable customer service, but personal insults and ad hominem attacks are simply not welcome here.
I've removed a post and its responses to hopefully get the thread back into calmer waters.
Much obliged, Mark.
Do a PDF, download, print, put in sleeves. Done.
PDF's can be updated far quicker than printing them out large scale and then having to ship them to various parts of the world.
We live in an electronic world these days, make the best of it by having the opportunity to download at anytime, much better than wait and wonder if they get lost in the post.
All the best.
Great Uncle LROG
I don't think cards are needed, but I would lover to have a .pdf of the errata'd cards so I can print them out and add the corrected information in my card sleeves with the original cards.
+1 for this solution!
But they don't want you putting them in sleeves... remember?
Then use glue!
If I want to put a card in a sleeve, who is going to stop me! Lol.
Also, if that is so, why do they put a promo card in a sleeve on the front of the box.
It is up to individuals what they do.
All the best.
Great Uncle LROG
I think they were referring to the comments here by Paizo that all the Adventure Path's cards probably won't fit into the box if you sleeve them all.
I think the only real way around it all is for them to bring out individual cards, so that people can get what they require from a local store\website.
I can understand misprint etc. and if they charged a minimal price for a card then it would solve the prob.
All the best.
Great Uncle LROG
I have sleeved mine , the card quality dictates that, IMO they won't last otherwise.
For my part, I don't need all the errata'd cards replaced; a lot of the errata is clarifying something caused by unclear wording, and I can remember how the card is supposed to be used now that I've been told.
But a small number of the cards are outright wrong - chief amongst which is Detect Magic. There, remembering how it ought to be worded isn't a solution.
As a sleever I would be satisfied with downloadable PDFs of the cards requiring correction. Some I'll print out and use, others (where I understand how the card is to be used, like Throwing Axe) and others I won't. Much cheaper, simpler and faster than trying to arrange and distribute reprinted cards.
Eventually the game will outgrow the box anyway, so it does not matter about if you sleeve your cards.
In the future you will have to use storage boxs anyway.
So, I think I will sleeve mine and keep the cards in good order.
All the best.
Great Uncle LROG
If I want to put a card in a sleeve, who is going to stop me! Lol.
Card police. They work closely with the mattress tag enforcers.
Back to the topic at hand.
I have to disagree with having to pay for the replacement cards (if they ever come out). I already payed for the game. Why should I have to pay twice for something that is not my fault? If I trash a card by accident, fine, I'll buy a new one. But with a game I am paying upwards of $140 ($60 base +$15.99 x5 expansions) for, why should I then have to shell out more for the publisher's mistakes?
I’ve no idea how or who prints the games for Piazo but how many of you have watched the Spiel’s video about making a board game? I suggest you go watch this video to realise what you might be asking when you want a replacement card http://vimeo.com/45796947
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For my part, I don't need all the errata'd cards replaced; a lot of the errata is clarifying something caused by unclear wording, and I can remember how the card is supposed to be used now that I've been told.
But a small number of the cards are outright wrong - chief amongst which is Detect Magic. There, remembering how it ought to be worded isn't a solution.
As a sleever I would be satisfied with downloadable PDFs of the cards requiring correction. Some I'll print out and use, others (where I understand how the card is to be used, like Throwing Axe) and others I won't. Much cheaper, simpler and faster than trying to arrange and distribute reprinted cards.
Agreed. A downloadable PDF of just the cards that have typo fixes, so we can print them and put them in sleeves with the originals would be a good solution.
Selling small packs with just those cards for $3 or something would also be acceptable, though they probably wouldn't sell very many.
As for sleeves vs non-sleeves, and the cards fitting in the box, I think that's a discussion best left for another thread... which I'll probably be starting soon.