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So, I've seen a few threads pop up about players wanting to use exotic races in games, and whether they should or should not. One of the reasons I've seen that argues against a party consisting of, say, an ifrit sorcerer, a catfolk rogue, a vanara cleric, and a human barbarian, is that "It's unrealistic and they'd be run out of town immediately," or something to that effect.
My question is, why is xenophobic villagers the norm in campaign settings? Why are cosmopolitan and/or ethnically diverse nations such a taboo thing for fantasy worlds to have? I mean, maybe racial prejudice occurs in more backwater parts of the campaign world, but the arguments seem to imply that ifrits and catfolk and vanara would be run out of every town, everywhere. Maybe even the human too, if he were Shoanti or Kellid.
It seems kind of sad to me, to be honest. I mean, I guess there could be a plotline where the ignorant villagers learn that the man with his head on fire is an all right dude. But just because a player thinks that the ifrit race looks cool, or that they make pretty neat sorcerers and he's always wanted to try a sorcerer, he has to accept that the entire world now hates him? It seems pretty harsh.
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong and there are people who run campaigns that have more progressive nations in them. That might be nice to hear about. But, to bring this post around to its title, why is prejudice the norm in (most) campaign settings?
Pretty much what TOZ said. Though I always change things up, depending on the city and town and such. For example, I have a setting where drow aren't evil nor hated, and in fact, are a major part of the human religion. Lizardfolk and grippli are the norm, while dwarves are regarded as oddities.
Course, I don't always default to prejudice with races. Sometimes I have towns where the majority are accepting of other races, or even have some admiration for some (like aasimars or sylphs). So one town might be cool with half-orcs for whatever reason, while another would run them out of town. And I don't leave this to just small towns. Living in the city has taught me that prejudice exists, so I tailor it a bit depending on the person or community.
But I never do the entire world hating people. That gets annoying after awhile.
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Historically speaking, prejudice is the norm in human society. In recent times it has centered on visible ethnicity, but national origin, language and religion are favorites for it as well. Given that human society is the only one we have as an example it seems reasonable to infer that a quasi medieval fantasy society would have it's share of prejudices. And if they are prejudiced for petty reasons like skin color, language and religious sect in real life / history what would people say about actual non-human races? Especially the ones with distinctly non-human appearance?
And what TOZ said :)
One thing about having truly different races, I suspect it would tend to reduce the prejudice against the relatively similar human groups which would normally be the target of prejudice. Humans tend to define their groups by who is not in them. Being visually oriented animals visual differences are the most likely to define an out group. There is nothing more "visible" than significant racial difference.
Still, in my setting prejudices exist. The specific prejudices and the virulence of them varies from place to place. Certain nationalities are disliked in specific areas, some races are viewed suspiciously as are some classes. Isolated areas / peoples tend to be more prejudiced, urban areas somewhat less so. The wealthy and the poor have different prejudices. Heh, villagers view people from the next village down the road with some suspicion and you can still be an "outsider" after living there for years.
Of course, sometimes dislikes are, in part, justified by experience. Orcs are my worlds Nazis. They are a violent, racist, and militaristic bunch who periodically spill out of the Orcring (their primary homeland) and try to conquer the world. It doesn't happen, but it's population control for the Orc warlords who rule the Orcring (a circular mountain range / crater riddled with massive numbers of Orc lairs / cities etc.) and it keeps the existing masters in power. People view Orcs with deep suspicion / hostility as a result. It sucks for those who do not fit the Orc norm / stereotype and for Half Orcs as well. It's baggage that goes with playing one in my game. Some groups might not even understand the basis for their hostility to outsiders. The Wood Elfs of my game are quite xenophobic. They are claustrophobic and nomadic with an intense distrust of any non Wood Elf and a fear of gathering in large numbers. A factor driven by their history as the refugees of a massive ancient war.
Irl I find intolerance and prejudice disgusting... but I can't imagine a quasi-realistic fantasy setting without it's share. Which says something about people... and to reiterate TOZ's post prejudice drives conflict and conflict drives role playing.
But none of this means prejudice is "everywhere", that it might not exist in some areas. or that you couldn't posit a world where it doesn't exist, at least as a significant factor.
honestly, I LIKE a bit of prejudice in my games... If half-elves are supposed to be 'non-belonging' or Half-orcs the product of violence... or drow just plain evil...
And I chose to play a 'good' version of that... I do so with the KNOWLEDGE and expectation that the internal conflict is PART of what appealed to me as a character.
I've seen games where Drow characters have zero issue going into shops and nobody treats them different from normal elves... and frankly I find them a BIT unbelieveable.
If a race or class is generally 'the bad guys' of the campaign world.... then it should apply to the players as much as the npcs :)
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Yeah I have some prejudice in my games. If a tiefling walks about town he might get some parents crossing on the other side of the street with their children or a sign on a bar that says "no Outsiders". That's part of the reason people choose these races in my games, that they'll get the rich role-playing that goes with overcoming such prejudice or being embittered by it.
That said when a society is predominantly good such prejudices just become more misunderstandings/misinformation due to the race's rarity.
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As others have said, conflict helps drive plots. Also, human nature tends towards fearing/disliking what one doesn't understand. In a world populated with dozens or hundreds of species who can kill you, people are going to look at the odd-person out through the "are they a threat" lens.
But while I think that's part of the argument against the "play any species/critter you want" grab-bag, it's just not internally consistent. Or at least, when a GM tries to make it so, players often cry foul.
To take the OP's sample party, none of those races have a significant present in Golarion's Inner Sea region. I also can't think of a published setting that would, more to the point. So outside from perhaps a few cosmopolitan cities here or there, those characters are going to stick out like a sore thumb. Realistically, that means that every time they bend or break the law or if the bad guys come looking for those PCs, just about everyone in town is going to know exactly who to look for. In my experience, the player is intentionally choosing to play a rare/monstrous race but expects the GM to run the world as if a commoner on the street should react with a simple "Hi, Bob." You can't have it both ways. A greatly overused but applicable example are the legions of Dr'zzt-inspired "good" drow. Most players want the drow's cool abilities but want to forget that it comes with the in-game-canon of belonging to one of the most feared and reviled races in the game.
In the Elder Scrolls setting, catfolk are one of the primary races. They're integrated into the setting. The one's cited in the OP are not (save the human), at least not within the Inner Sea region to any large degree. If you want a setting that treats those races as commonplace, you're going to have to create a setting for that. Whether that's a settlement, a city, or a game world is up to you.
It also creates the problem of internal consistency with respect to the game itself. So goblins and orcs are considered evil marauders and can be killed with impunity but that ifrit and catfolk are clearing not monsters? How exactly is Joe Commoner going to know that?
I'm all for a setting that incorporates different elements. I'm not a fan of constantly having to shoe-horn in the race-of-the-week and then being expected to act as if they're as commonplace as the "big 6".
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I think the concept of "They would be run out of town immediately" Is far too extreme, prejeduce has to be IMMENSE for that to happen, even if you have an entire party of drow walk into an elven city, people should scream and run, threaten them, avoid them, refuse to let them in places, but full on gang together and chase them out of town with pitchforks? Not likely.
That being said a character who's highly prejeduced against can be a lot of fun to play, if just walking down the street causes town watch to hassle you it creates a lot of opportunity for interesting things to happen.
The 3.x Dragonlance Bestiary had a neat system to handle acceptance of non-standard races in the back of the book. It didn't go with the run out of town bit, but certainly made things a little difficult on them, in terms of social penalties. Each individual could gain acceptance, however, to varying degrees in areas they were known for.
Toz hit the nail on the head. It can make for a damn memorable character if it can overcome the prejudices of the locals.
My setting tends to have the largest of cities more cosmopolitan, while the deeper into the backwoods you go, the greater the potential for ignorance and bias.
A rogue in one campaign I ran used the racial prejudice felt toward a tiefling in the party against the locals; while they focused on the tiefling and kept their daughters away, he spent a lot of time lifting purses - you know, as compensation to his companion for the poor treatment he suffered.
I think the concept of "They would be run out of town immediately" Is far too extreme, prejeduce has to be IMMENSE for that to happen, even if you have an entire party of drow walk into an elven city, people should scream and run, threaten them, avoid them, refuse to let them in places, but full on gang together and chase them out of town with pitchforks? Not likely.
That being said a character who's highly prejeduced against can be a lot of fun to play, if just walking down the street causes town watch to hassle you it creates a lot of opportunity for interesting things to happen.
No. Not likely. They would probably be shot down by artillery scale arrow storms a good long while BEFORE getting into the elven city. The elves would then seriously consider evacuating the city. If we are talking about Golarion, anyway.
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I think an exotic in and of itself wouldn't be sufficient to cause the torch and pitchfork response, but I think it does make sense that certain regions are going to view different races in negative light.
Taking Golarion for instance, A kitsune would be fine anywhere in human form. but...she is going to have people thinking she is a werewolf if she takes her humanoid form, especially someplace like Ustalav.
A Vanara would probably be attacked on sight in the Mwangi expanse, since she would be assumed to be one of the evil primate races that inhabit that area. Otherwise, she would probably get weird glances in Avistan, but might not be assumed to be evil or monstrous. And in Jalmeray she might not even earn a second look
and a lot of exotic races probably wouldn't get as much response as people think. Aasimar, Tieflings, and Tengu all seem to be widespread enough that they would have been heard of by all but the most remote backwater settlements.
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The funny thing is...prior to Second Darkness/Shattered Star, no one outside the elves and maybe some of the other underdark races, even knew what a Drow was. A Drow could have gotten along pretty well in most human cities, passing of the hair/skin color as the result of Mwangi heritage or some sort of Aasimar/Tiefling influence.
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No. Not likely. They would probably be shot down by artillery scale arrow storms a good long while BEFORE getting into the elven city. The elves would then seriously consider evacuating the city. If we are talking about Golarion, anyway.I think the concept of "They would be run out of town immediately" Is far too extreme, prejeduce has to be IMMENSE for that to happen, even if you have an entire party of drow walk into an elven city, people should scream and run, threaten them, avoid them, refuse to let them in places, but full on gang together and chase them out of town with pitchforks? Not likely.
That being said a character who's highly prejeduced against can be a lot of fun to play, if just walking down the street causes town watch to hassle you it creates a lot of opportunity for interesting things to happen.
Ok fine so I picked a bad example, but you know what I'm trying to say, and actually push my point even further, Golarian is a place where they either kill you as a monster or just sort of ostracize you, running you out of town is something that happens when a turn of fortune turns you group out of favor not something that happens when you try to walk into the place.
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"Lakota" translates basically as "the people". Separating the world into "the people" and "not the people" is a fundamental cultural dynamic of human civilizations going as far back as you can find records. The goals of "diversity" can be summarized almost entirely as expanding the definition of "people" to be inclusive of groups that had previously been "not-people".
When you consider how long it has taken the human race to get where we are now, and how far we still have left to go, when dealing with a single species, it should be fairly obvious that dealing with a huge (and always growing) collection of beings that aren't even the same species, some of whom are quite "monstrous" in comparison to humans, elves, dwarves, etc. then the lack of "diversity" should be seen as a reasonably plausible cultural situation in a society more or less based on medieval or feudal societies.
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Because prejudice seems to be the cultural norm through history in most of the world. It is relatively recently (historically speaking) that some societies have even begun to acknowledge that a lack of prejudice should even be a goal. And that is between humans that just look or speak slightly different from each other.
If there were actual honest to goodness different intelligent races, I don't think many of us could imagine how bad it could be.
Having said that, back when I made my own gaming universe (don't have the time anymore) I always made different areas/nations behave differently. This area prejudice against humanoids. That nation looks down on gnomes and halflings. This place reveres the lizardfolk and oiphidians. Maybe even one extrememly enlightened land that was not prejudiced (or at least not much). Of course that land was about to go under from the homicidal fanatics of X.
Been awhile since I read the ISWG. Wasn't there one island that is supposed to be evolved and enlightened run by a gold dragon? Don't remember the details though.
My personal campaign world has a wide range of diversity found in different nations. The elvish nation, for example, is a nation of the elves, for the elves and by the elves. While they tolerate the habitation of non-elves in their home nation, they do not allow any but a full-blooded elf to be in a position of authority and some races, such as orcs, are simply not allowed to live in the nation at all.
The dwarf nation is almost 100% dwarf, but that's in large part because there aren't many individuals from other races willing to live underground and in the perpetual dark for much of the time.
The "human" nation is the most "progressive" of the nations primarily centered around a race. There are elves, half-elves, half-orcs, halflings, gnomes and other races in positions of power and prominence, but the nation is primarily ruled and populated by humans.
There is one nation that is deliberately set up to be inclusive of all sentient species on the planet. It is also, not coincidentally, the only true democratic nation on the planet. Even so, within the borders of the nation, individual city/state units can be more or less diverse than others. And even though the nation recognizes the right of orcs, goblins and kobolds to be full citizens, the bulk of the people living in the nation are still fairly suspicious of the more historically "evil" races, and there is frequent friction between some of the cities, which sometimes leads to warfare.
Which is great since it provides me, as the GM, with a handy narrative opportunity to pursue for starting or advancing campaigns.
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I think it's also interesting to note that though a lot of places have massive prejudices they don't always effect the victim in a direct or violent way.
You go to any small/isolated community even in our day and age and you might find the people perfectly friendly and inviting to you but at the same time they will expose massive ignorant prejudice that's taken as perfectly normal and seems to go hand in hand with typical pleasantries.
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I think it's also interesting to note that though a lot of places have massive prejudices they don't always effect the victim in a direct or violent way.
You go to any small/isolated community even in our day and age and you might find the people perfectly friendly and inviting to you but at the same time they will expose massive ignorant prejudice that's taken as perfectly normal and seems to go hand in hand with typical pleasantries.
Heh, I find the idea that this is more prevalent in "small/isolated" communities to be sort of hilarious in an ironically prejudiced against small-town folk sort of way... ;)
In most of my games, nearly every race has slur terms for nearly every other race, even the ones they like fairly well.
Ooh! Do share them, please!
I think prejudice is unavoidable in any fantasy setting that has commoners and better-than-commoners. You've already set the pace for it.
Now add in a monarchy, or divine right to leadership, and you've declared some lives are more important than others.
Terms like demi-human extends this into other races, that usually have their own "This guys life means more than that guy's life" hierarchy, and of course, their race's lives are more important than your race's lives. This is even without getting into nationalism as well, interconflicted members of the same race, based solely on how they chose to gather in one place or another.
These things drive conflict, for sure, but it's also inherent to the genre.
One of the most fundamental assumptions of virtually every fantasy game, novel, movie or video game is that there are evil sentient races. If a campaign world follows that model and the orcs in that campaign world are truly evil monsters, is it still "prejudice" to hate them?
I think the modern sensibilities you'd like to apply would be akin to meta-gaming in a fantasy setting, as most folks are born into their roles, and live with the realities of prejudice. Only the adventurers can rise above and make a difference.
Writing things to be that way is easy when it's already a way of life for people in that kind of a setting.
Do you think a peseant farmer really gives two figs whether the orcs in the area feel their attacks (read: murder of innocents) are justified or not? Or the soldiers that are sent to protect the farmers?
Do you think the Elves give two figs that humans need wood, and their home for centuries is the closest source?
This goes on and on. Welcome to the genre.
Depending on who you're playing, which story you're pursuing, someone is most definately wrong, and someone is most definately correct.
Well, it IS an advance judgement...
OK, then if evil races/species exist in a particular campaign world, is prejudice bad?
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Willow: And don't call me 'peck!'
In my homebrew campaign, the high elves have a massive superiority complex over halflings, and treat the latter as slaves (because they're convinced that halflings are stupid, weak, short-lived, and useless for almost anything except menial tasks). They call male halflings "bucks" and female halflings "jills," as if they were pets rather than people.
The halflings, needless to say, find this to be hilarious, because they outnumber the elves by like 10 to 1. They just haven't worked up the desire to revolt yet.
Hatred should by no means be the only reason playing an exotic race would be difficult. Think about what would happen if a big man man walked into your town. You've never seen one before, never even heard such a thing existed. You would attract so much attention and curiosity it would be very difficult to accomplish anything.
The same thing could be set for ifrits with fire hair. That's why I tell my players they will probably have to conceal their weird nature in most cases.
It's not even always bad in the real world. Although I suppose we call it a different name, so semantics.True. For example, if I accuse people of being prejudiced, they'll get... well, they won't be pleased. But if I ask them what they think of the Nazi Party, I can almost guarantee I'm gonna hear some hate speech. And then I'll agree with it. ;)
With human "races" it's a biological myth, but in fantasy worlds with orcs and elves, the different races actually ARE fundamentally different and some of them ARE out to get you, so reacting negatively to an orc/tiger man/guy with flaming locks walking into town is more like caution than discrimination.
I honestly have no idea. It makes no sense in a world with magic and strange creatures that may well pull your plowshare that people point and go 'Look at that. It ain't doin' nothin', but we should kill it.'
This is the kind of things people encounter all the time. Just looking weird shouldn't mean squat; what matters is what you do.
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With human "races" it's a biological myth, but in fantasy worlds with orcs and elves, the different races actually ARE fundamentally different and some of them ARE out to get you, so reacting negatively to an orc/tiger man/guy with flaming locks walking into town is more like caution than discrimination.It's not even always bad in the real world. Although I suppose we call it a different name, so semantics.True. For example, if I accuse people of being prejudiced, they'll get... well, they won't be pleased. But if I ask them what they think of the Nazi Party, I can almost guarantee I'm gonna hear some hate speech. And then I'll agree with it. ;)
And in a world where the stranger in black could be a powerful wizard or polymorphed dragon, reacting negatively to him is an invitation to suicide.
Ok fine so I picked a bad example, but you know what I'm trying to say, and actually push my point even further, Golarian is a place where they either kill you as a monster or just sort of ostracize you, running you out of town is something that happens when a turn of fortune turns you group out of favor not something that happens when you try to walk into the place.
I pretty much see 'kill you as a monster' and 'run you out of town' as pretty much the same thing. You show up in Sandpoint as a goblin... when 99% of the time the goblins come to steal, kill and burn??? then Yeah, they'll grab pitchforks and try to kill you. You can either try to fight back... or run back to the woods. Just like the last dozen goblin invasions.
If you are a some kind of super-golem or minotaur... then odds are they will flee and summons the guards... but if you look like the CR1 version of the monster... they'll probably try to get ya ;)
Hatred should by no means be the only reason playing an exotic race would be difficult. Think about what would happen if a big man man walked into your town. You've never seen one before, never even heard such a thing existed. You would attract so much attention and curiosity it would be very difficult to accomplish anything.
The same thing could be set for ifrits with fire hair. That's why I tell my players they will probably have to conceal their weird nature in most cases.
Ehhhhh even if 'fire hair' inspired awe and curiosity.... they wouldn't be allowed in a tavern or have an inn room rented to them. parents would still snatch their kids and pull them back.
FIRE is DANGEROUS ;)
Catfolk are a tough race to reconcile. If you take a Rakashasa, a were tiger, and a Catfolk in the room... the average joe wouldn't know which was which... only that at least ONE of them is evil... and for sure one will go savage and kill and infect everyone.
A little prejudice is perfectly fair on that count... One of the reasons I can't stand Catfolk (or tengu or Ratme... etc. ) They take an awesome Lycantrhope image and tame it down to be 'playable'
Blah... :(
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I try to keep my prejudice to realistic situations and places. For instance, say that one town is on the border of a nation like, say, Cheliax. If a tiefling wandered into town, he'd probably get spat on and stared at if not outright lynched, depending on whether or not the town had the sort of charismatic enough bully to get people riled into a mob (I sometimes pull this in "investigation" adventures, when the PCs are considered prime suspects for a crime due to ethnicity or nationality or species, and must smooth things over Atticus Finch style). Now, conversely, if i have a town near a major thoroughfare that isn't currently at war or in the midst of political or cultural tensions, they might give the tiefling funny looks, but more because he's an adventurer, and adventurers of all flavors stink of trouble like a freshly-washed ferret.
But, in general, prejudice helps establish possible bits of evidence and world-building. This town dislikes ratfolk. Okay, fact. If this is so, there must be a reason. Hopefully, putting this in there will prompt PCs to ask around, if for no other reason than to keep their ratfolk party member from getting egged on the street. It provides a conflict, and flavors the surroundings, and establishes what people in the area consider pure and wholesome, and what they revile.
Just plain old world-spanning hatred of a thing, though? i save that for drow, who antagonize EVERYBODY, even each other. Other than that, I've never seen a reason to make someone universaly despised. That's just silly.
Unless otherwise specified in a particular country or area, prejudice will likely vary along a spectrum. A big, metropolitan city that's a center of trade and learning will be a place where most folks see a wide variety of races, so prejudice will be at a minimum. It won't be nonexistent; a merchant might not like half-orcs because one killed his grandpa. He still takes their coin. He just inflates the prices.) Meanwhile, the insular rural settlement that always has been, and likely always will be, predominantly settled by one particular race could have serious trust issues with anyone that doesn't look and act like them...even others of the same race.