First of all this enchantment works very well for monks as well.
In addition the guided weapon enchantment is from a Paizo book yes, but that book (legecy of fire player guide iirc) was written with 3.5 in mind and not PF.
A monk might be able to use it. A ranger as well. And it is quite a lot more useful than the "agile" enhancement, considering the bonuses for spell casting. It could allow a low-strength monk/ranger quite easily. All in all I'd agree that it's overpowered for a cleric (they get enough cool toys already). But this could be really cool on a monk.
Then again, this seems to be a port from 3.5 that hasn't been retouched (thus balance issues). Wouldn't be surprised if it's considered overpowered in many circles. In the end, it's your fiat. There's this thread that tries a few ideas to rebalance it:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oxy0?Balancing-guided-weapon-for-pathfinder#1
Edit: Double ninja'd on the monk comment
The enhancement works a little to well for Druids, Clerics, and Monks IMO. It however lacks value for virtually anyone else since other classes don't focus on wisdom. The Druid and the Cleric are exactly the characters I don't want to have it because thats partly how you ended up with CoDzilla characters. Monks could use the boost, but I just outright disallow it. Especially because despite being written by Paizo, it was written for D&D 3.5, not for Pathfinder.
Besides which the monk can get agile on a amulet of mighty fists and focus on dexterity and wisdom and be okay.
A monk might be able to use it. A ranger as well. And it is quite a lot more useful than the "agile" enhancement, considering the bonuses for spell casting. It could allow a low-strength monk/ranger quite easily. All in all I'd agree that it's overpowered for a cleric (they get enough cool toys already). But this could be really cool on a monk.
Then again, this seems to be a port from 3.5 that hasn't been retouched (thus balance issues). Wouldn't be surprised if it's considered overpowered in many circles. In the end, it's your fiat. There's this thread that tries a few ideas to rebalance it:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oxy0?Balancing-guided-weapon-for-pathfinder#1
Edit: Double ninja'd on the monk comment
A port from 3.5? Has it been reprinted in a book after Paizo started the PF ruleset?
That said I think you may be overstating the power a bit, it will make his raw numbers a bit more comparable to a dedicated melee fighter but he's still not going to be a match for them in that regard as they'll have several supporting abilities. It's worth noting that if he's running around with a heavy shield and a one handed weapon he's going to be unable to cast most of his spells without dropping or storing one of those constantly.
Weapon cords take care of that problem and allow the Druid/Cleric to be 70% the power of the fighter while still have 9th level spells available to them. That's far too much power, IMO.
If the cleric/druid focus on spending feats for combat rather than casting they will have 90% the strength of the fighter and still have access to all their buffs and spell casting.
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Well you have to think about some of the other things about Guided, like you don't get a two handing bonus. That right there keeps them from being a "full Fighter" although a Cleric can already take a Fighter's job with one or two spells.
Don't use Fighter as your bar for this, consider the power level of which you want to have your Cleric be able to aspire to (although this character probably will be making your Gnoll Fighter feel bad about his choices in life, but that's just because it's a Fighter vs. Cleric.)
It will make him more SAD, which is going to be a large increase in their melee power. Although from the looks of it, they're supposed to be in melee with the Fighter. This will probably leave the Fighter a bit jealous, so you might want to find something to help that character out too so they don't feel overshadowed.
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Yep. It is. It was a late-game 3.5 property that never made the cut to PF, in any of the books since then. Like almost all stat-consolidation abilities, it just rewards dumping a stat that doesn't really do anything else (Strength) or that there are ample workarounds to the one or two situations where that stat matters. The feat that does similar only subs to-hit, requires two feats to get, requires you to be a specific class, and almost requires you to worship a god whose weapon is actually useful.
But really, the fact that it hasn't made the jump to PF should tell you enough about it :)
Yep. It is. It was a late-game 3.5 property that never made the cut to PF, in any of the books since then. Like almost all stat-consolidation abilities, it just rewards dumping a stat that doesn't really do anything else (Strength) or that there are ample workarounds to the one or two situations where that stat matters. The feat that does similar only subs to-hit, requires two feats to get, requires you to be a specific class, and almost requires you to worship a god whose weapon is actually useful.
But really, the fact that it hasn't made the jump to PF should tell you enough about it :)
+1 to this.
The Simple fix is to make it more like aglie
WIS to damage only and your diety fovored weapon only for +1
If player feels cheated the tell him for additional +1 it cold work the old way. Truely ask Gnoll fighter if he feel weaker in melee that than Cleric if he say no then forget about it.
I suppose you could (somewhat) restrict it by requiring a ki pool of at least 1 point before the ability would work. Of course, folks good at Use Magic Device can still work around that restriction, but the odds of being a master of UMD and having a Wisdom high enough to justify it would make this a relatively rare case.
I think this is the best idea. It is overpowered for a cleric, but for a monk, it's perfect for the AoMF. Of course I think monks should use Wis-to-hit anyway, in order to make them less MAD from the start, but any port in a storm is good.
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Let the cleric have it, its not overpowered in the slightest.
This cleric in particular isn't build for combat, an increase of a few points isn't going to change that enough to be broken. Competent combatant? Maybe. His damage is still going to suck since he isn't built for it. Yipee, he will get 1d8+6 on his attacks, which he will get 2 of. Between the two attacks you meet the dpr of a competently built first level barbarian (which is 2d6+12 during rage at the very least). You know what you call 3/4 bab characters who have trouble beating the DPR of characters 7 levels below them? NPCs.
The item enhancement itself isn't even broken, but if it could be broken its not going to be clerics doing it. Monks get way more millage out it. Guided makes monks SAD. They get their most important save from wisdom, their AC from wisdom, and their to hit/damage with guided. Do they really need much else other than some minor dex and con to boost AC,HP, and saves a bit?
guided isn't really too bad a property.
your caster cleric will OMG, deal 1d8+6 twice per round
a fighter specced for damage has 2 extra points of to hit, before feats or weapon training, which will likely give 2-3 extra to hit and about 3 extra damage. this doesn't account for 2WF or 2handing. which the cleric has no benefit from.
and damage dealing clerics are a suboptimal damage dealer anyway. great survivor build though.
I think it's too strong when compared to Agile, which still requires the individual to have Weapon Finesse.
Were I to have a player interested in this, I'd likely modify it to only add wisdom to damage and introduce a feat that allows wis to attack rolls in place of strength for light or one-handed bludgeoning weapons as a requirement for it.
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Yah, its fine as is, (and I actually think it was updated to PF somewhere Seeker of Secrets or Faction Guide?). Its really bad to compair it to Agile or Dervish Dance because Dex is by far a much more useful ability. Thats why so many characters jump on it, trying to negate Str and make as much as possible Dex based. The Cleric cant really do that though. They dont have the feats to keep up, are still going to need some Str for movement speed and carrying capacity, and are way to MAD. They also generally do not get as much milage out of a high Dex as almost any other character class. Also keep in mind that many of their offensive spells are touch attacks, not Ranged Touch Attacks, and Guided will not help there.
People worry far to much about the [myth of the] Godzilla and fail to realize just how much PF has surpassed that with basically all classes but the Cleric, including the Druid who was far worse.
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Also, somewhere around here there was a FAQ that stated when something changes out Str, you do likewise use Dex and a half for wielding two handed, or whatever the case may be. Dervish Dance requires you to wield one handed, but it ahould apply to Agile and Guided (or Guided hand).
<posting from phone so cant do research or linking easily.>
it is not overpowered
Why is it not overpowered, because it's wisdom. agile is vastly superior. because dex is vastly superior.
dex increases your reflex save, cmd, ac and to hit with a range weapon.
you can't dump strengh as a druid or cleric, because CMB gets wrecked, not mention carry capacity, also the opprunity cost, everytime you enter melee means you are not casting a spell, it's limited to one weapon and it doesn't affect range weapons.
it's just not that great for a cleric or druid who generate those same pluses to hit and dmg with a spell or two. it's nice bonus but nothing earth shattering.
The item is actually most useful for monks, which is probably why it wasn't ported, monks weren't allowed to nice things in the begining. i'm glad my gm allowed it though monks just need too many stats to be useful.
it doenst as a poster above said make you sad. you still need good dex to keep your ac up, you need good con, it just meeans you only need 3 good stats instead of four which is a big help.
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it is not overpowered
Why is it not overpowered, because it's wisdom. agile is vastly superior. because dex is vastly superior.
dex increases your reflex save, cmd, ac and to hit with a range weapon.
Yeah, and WIS only increases your Will saves, Perception, Sense Motive, AC and special abilities if you're a monk, spellcasting if you're a druid, cleric, or ranger.... Wait a minute....
+1 for not being overpowered.
it definitely is an investment- 8k minimum (for a +1 guided weapon). that's 8k that isn't going toward a phylactery of channeling, or metamagic rods. by the time your high enough level for 8k to be no big deal you're far enough behind a fighter's BAB and feats that a +3 or +4 is not gonna make the fighter feel bad. honestly if he's even competing with a gnoll fighter for damage then the problem is that your fighter is put together super poorly.
it is a handy enchant that makes melee clerics more viable but its not unbalancing because if their Wis focused it means they're primarily casters and thus have far better things to do with a round than swing their weapon (the one possible exception being a reach AoO build cleric).
Just make it like agile so you only get WIS to damage and then only with your diety favored weapon. Then make him take this feat:
Guided Hand
Your deity blesses any strike you make with that deity's favored weapon.
Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature, Channel Smite, proficiency with your deity's favored weapon.
Benefit: With your deity's favored weapon, you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier on attack rolls.
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I think that Guided is better than Agile, but I don't think that it is necessarily OP. If anything, Wisdom is an inherently less-powerful stat than Agile for most classes, so it is a very niche property. Unlike Agile, however, Guided has no restriction to what sort of melee weapons that it can be applied to. I propose a rewrite to the following:
Aura moderate evocation; CL 7th; Slot weapon quality; Price +1 bonus.
Description
A weapon with the guided property possesses an empathetic link with whomever wields it, allowing the wielder to manifest their faith and natural instinct in the form of deadly accuracy.
Before a guided weapon can be used, a character must sacrifice either one ki point or one 1st-level divine spell into the guided weapon in order to activate it. When activated, the character modifies weapon attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with her Wisdom instead of her Strength. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons but is still reduced for off-handed weapons. Only the character who activated the guided weapon can receive this benefit and once activated, the weapon functions for 24 hours or until the character replenishes her ki pool or divine spells.
A guided weapon can only be activated using ki points if the guided weapon is a monk weapon, a ki intensifying weapon, or is an amulet of might fists. Any guided weapon can be activated by sacrificing a divine spell if the character activating the guided weapon receives her divine spells from a deity who declares the guided weapon as its favored weapon.
I think it's too strong when compared to Agile, which still requires the individual to have Weapon Finesse.
Were I to have a player interested in this, I'd likely modify it to only add wisdom to damage and introduce a feat that allows wis to attack rolls in place of strength for light or one-handed bludgeoning weapons as a requirement for it.
I'd go for that too.
That's sort of my issue. Without Guided, a cleric has to make a choice as to whether he wants to invest his abilities in spellcasting or hitting stuff. Like any other class, if he wants to be good at one thing he has to choose to boost that instead of something else. With guided, it seems like that choice never has to be made again.
He's a full caster. He can concentrate on casting then buff up with spells. He isn't called CoDzilla for nothing!
And why should the cleric get the option to have his cake and eat it when no-one else does?
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The enhancement works a little to well for Druids, Clerics, and Monks IMO. It however lacks value for virtually anyone else since other classes don't focus on wisdom. The Druid and the Cleric are exactly the characters I don't want to have it because thats partly how you ended up with CoDzilla characters. Monks could use the boost, but I just outright disallow it. Especially because despite being written by Paizo, it was written for D&D 3.5, not for Pathfinder.
Besides which the monk can get agile on a amulet of mighty fists and focus on dexterity and wisdom and be okay.
Even more so for a Monk/Druid :P
-Clerics get greater magic weapon early
What do you mean by early? In PF they have it as a 4th level spell where in 3.5 it was 3rd, in addition wizards keep getting it as a 3rd level spell.
If it never got ported to PF from 3.5, after all this time, not even in non-core paizo splat books, there's a reason. Save yourself the headache. Let your players know when you say Paizo stuff is legal you mean the PF era and later, not stuff written for 3.5 but never converted over.
Also, somewhere around here there was a FAQ that stated when something changes out Str, you do likewise use Dex and a half for wielding two handed, or whatever the case may be. Dervish Dance requires you to wield one handed, but it ahould apply to Agile and Guided (or Guided hand).
<posting from phone so cant do research or linking easily.>
I am interested, is there such a ruling/FAQ?
Okay, I'm glad I got some posts in favor of this because it'll increase my understanding.
Follow up questions:
Notabot: What about the amount of gain to investment? The cleric won't outdamage the fighter, this is true. That's because the Fighter has invested everything in being able to tank and fight, barring skill points of course. If anyone besides a cleric, druid, or monk wants +3 to hit and to damage they have to invest a LOT more than the +1 for guided.
That's sort of my issue. Without Guided, a cleric has to make a choice as to whether he wants to invest his abilities in spellcasting or hitting stuff. Like any other class, if he wants to be good at one thing he has to choose to boost that instead of something else. With guided, it seems like that choice never has to be made again.
Its a min +2 investment for probably about +2-3 to hit and damage. Honestly I would rather spend the 8k differently on a casting based cleric. Like piles of scrolls and wondrous items.
My combat cleric does have a nice sword now, but its a spell storing sword so I can put some nasty spells into it for the big hit I'm going for. Clerics have some nasty spells they can put into spell storing, and combat clerics don't have to waste their time with an item tax to be effective at it. A +1 guided spell storing sword is much more expensive than a +1 spell storing sword.
I never really got why some people make caster clerics anyways. The difference between my combat cleric and a casting one is +1 or +2 to save DC, same difference on will saves (how often do clerics fail will saves?) and a couple spell slots they probably won't use anyways before a rest is called for (or they will blow on pointless buffs/cures that never get fully used). A combat cleric barely uses their spells so they don't miss out on much of that anyways, and cure spells are for wands(and most remove X spells should be on scrolls). Leave the healbot for DMPCs. If the caster cleric wants to play control caster they should have rolled a wizard. Focusing on casting wastes half of the classes potential IMHO.
For my combat cleric I did give up having a decent dex score (actually I have a small penalty from having a 9 dex) but since I used my human feat for heavy armor prof I don't even care. If it matters I can pop a buff spell anyways. I don't get a huge number of channels, but its neg energy so there is no danger of the party whining about me needing to be their healbot, and since I channel smite with it on top of doing my share of martial damage less healing is required due to short combats.
A port from 3.5? Has it been reprinted in a book after Paizo started the PF ruleset?A monk might be able to use it. A ranger as well. And it is quite a lot more useful than the "agile" enhancement, considering the bonuses for spell casting. It could allow a low-strength monk/ranger quite easily. All in all I'd agree that it's overpowered for a cleric (they get enough cool toys already). But this could be really cool on a monk.
Then again, this seems to be a port from 3.5 that hasn't been retouched (thus balance issues). Wouldn't be surprised if it's considered overpowered in many circles. In the end, it's your fiat. There's this thread that tries a few ideas to rebalance it:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oxy0?Balancing-guided-weapon-for-pathfinder#1
Edit: Double ninja'd on the monk comment
lol, I forgot I did that.
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The only real issue with this is that the template in PF (non-3.5 version) is splitting the damage and attack bonuses, one thru a feat and one thru the agile weapon property. Just like the combat cleric who gave up both domains for full bab got tossed out as unbalanced from the earlier version, this probably is not the new model, else it would have been ported over).
To my thinking, monks, inquisitors, and druids are helped the most. Monks I would be okay allowing this to act like it does in 3.5 because quite frankly the class could use a little help overall. Inquisitors and especially druids do not need the assist. It is not so much that they should not have this ability as it is that they should probably follow the two part model established for dex based characters with agile.
It's powerful, but not too powerful.
The only real issue with this is that the template in PF (non-3.5 version) is splitting the damage and attack bonuses, one thru a feat and one thru the agile weapon property. Just like the combat cleric who gave up both domains for full bab got tossed out as unbalanced from the earlier version, this probably is not the new model, else it would have been ported over).
To my thinking, monks, inquisitors, and druids are helped the most. Monks I would be okay allowing this to act like it does in 3.5 because quite frankly the class could use a little help overall. Inquisitors and especially druids do not need the assist. It is not so much that they should not have this ability as it is that they should probably follow the two part model established for dex based characters with agile.
With agile working the way it does dex based melee characters are still mostly subpar. Can you name a popular dex build that makes use of agile? Most good dex builds are dervish dancing or are primarily ranged. At best you will find a dex monk with an amulet running around sucking only slightly less than a typical monk.
The agile weapon property is a magic item tax that most players would rather avoid entirely for a mulititude of reasons and would prefer either a feat gimmick or a class that gives the ability.
Guided isn't unbalanced nor is is especially good. The classes that would use it are hardly going to break the game by being slightly better at dealing damage. In fact the magic item tax is going to be too much for most players to build their character around it. Sucking worse than an NPC class for 5 levels before you can get guided will ensure that, and if you start out at higher levels then there is so much more you can do build and gear wise than waste your resources on a guided weapon build.
You know why druids aren't running around with guided weapons? Because their combat form is about the wildshape ability. Last I checked wildshape doesn't increase wisdom, so guided won't stack or improve combat ability. Oh sure, druids can try to fight in their normal form, but then they are a 3/4 BAB character with weapon and armor restrictions, less spells per day than a cleric, and less buff oriented combat spells that other 3/4 bab characters have, and leave one of their best class powers under utilized.
As for inquisitors, its hardly going to kill the game to see this class boosted. Sure the rogue might get angry seeing a better skill monkey become slightly less SAD and barely better at dealing damage, but its not like complaining about the rogue being marginalized is going to do anything.
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With agile working the way it does dex based melee characters are still mostly subpar. Can you name a popular dex build that makes use of agile? Most good dex builds are dervish dancing or are primarily ranged. At best you will find a dex monk with an amulet running around sucking only slightly less than a typical monk.
The agile weapon property is a magic item tax that most players would rather avoid entirely for a mulititude of reasons and would prefer either a feat gimmick or a class that gives the ability.
Guided isn't unbalanced nor is is especially good. The classes that would use it are hardly going to break the game by being slightly better at dealing damage. In fact the magic item tax is going to be too much for most players to build their character around it. Sucking worse than an NPC class for 5 levels before you can get guided will ensure that, and if you start out at higher levels then there is so much more you can do build and gear wise than waste your resources on a guided weapon build.
You know why druids aren't running around with guided weapons? Because their combat form is about the wildshape ability. Last I checked
wildshape doesn't increase wisdom,...
The fact of the matter is that a pure caster cleric can add this to a weapon for a +1 cost and gain the equivalent of an 18-22 str instantly, plus cast spells with the same high casting stat. If this is what you mean by "guided weapon build", how in the world is a pure caster sucking worse than a NPC class for 5 levels?
Unless we are talking about carrying capacity or kicking in a door, this means a gnome cleric with an 8 str and a 20 wisdom is suddenly a gnome cleric with a 20 str and 20 wis. No tradeoff, nothing but more goodness. This is the same situation with an inquisitor, who already get initiative based off of wisdom. Druids obviously are not going to add it to melee weapon but to an AoMF. If you are okay with druids dumping str, pumping up wisdom and going pure caster till they get an AoMF with this and then pouncing or hippo biting with a 20 str, then no this isnt unbalanced.
Look at what it costs for a +6 str belt and realize that the classes using this are going to benefit more than that item for the cost of a +1 weapon property (with the exception of THF bonuses of course). Maybe there are times when it is fine, but there are certainly cases when you are increasing the capabilities of full casters, the classes that least need increasing.
This doesn't mean it is OP, just that you can't discuss it like it was a flaming property or something. Adding +5 or more to the BAB of a casting class for the cost of a +1 weapon property is powerful. Just my opinion, same as anyone else, but if used as is, it should at least be +2, or stay +1 and add to damage only.
With agile working the way it does dex based melee characters are still mostly subpar. Can you name a popular dex build that makes use of agile? Most good dex builds are dervish dancing or are primarily ranged. At best you will find a dex monk with an amulet running around sucking only slightly less than a typical monk.
The agile weapon property is a magic item tax that most players would rather avoid entirely for a mulititude of reasons and would prefer either a feat gimmick or a class that gives the ability.
Guided isn't unbalanced nor is is especially good. The classes that would use it are hardly going to break the game by being slightly better at dealing damage. In fact the magic item tax is going to be too much for most players to build their character around it. Sucking worse than an NPC class for 5 levels before you can get guided will ensure that, and if you start out at higher levels then there is so much more you can do build and gear wise than waste your resources on a guided weapon build.
You know why druids aren't running around with guided weapons? Because their combat form is about the wildshape ability. Last I checked
wildshape doesn't increase wisdom,...The fact of the matter is that a pure caster cleric can add this to a weapon for a +1 cost and gain the equivalent of an 18-22 str instantly, plus cast spells with the same high casting stat. If this is what you mean by "guided weapon build", how in the world is a pure caster sucking worse than a NPC class for 5 levels?
Unless we are talking about carrying capacity or kicking in a door, this means a gnome cleric with an 8 str and a 20 wisdom is suddenly a gnome cleric with a 20 str and 20 wis. No tradeoff, nothing but more goodness. This is the same situation with an inquisitor, who already get initiative based off of wisdom. Druids obviously are not going to add it to melee weapon but to an AoMF. If you are okay with druids dumping str, pumping up wisdom and going pure caster...
this is perfect example why guided is not that great. this gnome sucks. why because if you want to meleee you still can't dump str. why first, you CMD is going to be terrible. this gnome might as well not be here, as he can be tripped, bullrushed, grapple about the same as a five year old child. second he can't wear good armor, he cant even make combat maneuvers.
it's worse for druids, as someone mention combat druids are getting there power from wild shape or their animal companion. The only class that would really use it, is a monk, and it's no different than power attack for a two handed fighter. power attack is a must take feat for any two handed fighter period, I don't see why that is some how better than a must take item for a monk