Nar'shinddah Sugimar

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Thanks a lot for the answers! they are really helpful.

For the drink a potion/Stealth situation, I'll allow the player to make a Stealth check as a separate action to remain undetected if the potion was on the PC's body outside of a container (such as the bandolier Claxon mentioned).

For the dragon I'll go with the "it's a summoned ally so you shouldn't be afraid of it" ruling.

Hi everyone.

In my last game two situations came up, and I would like to get some imput from fellow DMs out there about how you would resolve them.

- A character observed by some enemies turned invisible and then used Sneak to move to another position secret Sneak check went well and he became undetected to enemies. Then he took a potion and drank it. Is grabbing/drinking a potion while undetected considered an unobtrusive action? Rules talk about allowing this type of actions with a new Stealth roll to try not to give away your position. I ruled it was unobtrusive so a new Stealth could be rolled. What do you think?

- In the same combat, the same character used a Summon Dragon spell (9th) to conjure a lvl 13 Adult Blue Dragon. This creature has the Frightful Presence monster ability:

Frightful Presence (aura, emotion, fear, mental) 90 feet, DC 32

This ability doesn't seem to differentiate between allies and enemies, so it should affect everyone inside the aura, but that kinda defeats the purpose of using a summoned dragon... I ruled that the dragon could appear without the aura active to not mess with the PCs, but I have found nothing in the rules to support this. How would you run this?

Many thanks.


I believe it's intentional that you're very limited in your interactions when you don't have ghostly grasp.

A ghost is a very esoteric being and the closed door of a closet becomes as much of a metaphorical barrier as a physical one.
An easy way to make this more accessible for the player is to give them anything with ghost touch (like a gauntlet).
Alternatively if you're a spellcaster or have an ancestry cantrip, there's mage hand in arcane/occult and prestidigitation in all traditions (prestidigitation doesn't open a door by a very strict reading but let's be honest if it can lift an object but not open an unlocked door, it's just magical dry cleaning).

I'm fine with characters having limitations, but I believe that a newly created ghost without an entry-level environment interaction tool/rule is very problematic, as there are some situations were the ghost would be screwed because neither they nor the other PCs can do anything (see the "you fall into a pit, how do you get out?" example).

Ghost touch gauntlets is a nice solution, but I prefer to give the character an innate ability instead of having to rely on an specific item.


Ghostly grasp really feels designed like a must take because it gives you the advanced undead benefits. The ability to interact with physical objects is more here as an enabler to take pass through later and not feel bad that you need to leave your ghost touch stuff behind than a replacement for it.

I think the important part about Ghostly Grasp is the object interaction, not the advanced undead benefits. Those are not mandatory by any means. Also, Ghostly Grasp and Pass Through don't do the same thing, so the first doesn't get obsolete when you take the second.

Ok, I'll try to answer these since I will have a ghost in my party (I'm the GM), and I honestly believe this archetype needs some thinking on the GM part to make it viable.

1. Yes, with the Arrest a Fall, as the previous poster indicated.

2. RAW you cannot exit the wall using Pass Through, but the Success text in the feat includes a clause that you can also exit using "some other means of moving through a solid object". For my games I am ignoring the slowed 1 text, so you have three actions and can try to exit using Pass Through.

3. RAW no, you cannot climb without that ability.

4. Again, no. And you imagined a pretty favourable situation, since one of your party members can open the door for you. If you are a lvl2 ghost and you fall into a pit, you are pretty much screwed, not even your friends can do anything about it. They can't throw you a rope, you can't climb out of the pit, and I don't think there are teleportation spells/abilities at this level to get the ghost out... you get the idea.

5. I would say that your hand goes through the cup or table. My understanding is that the Pass Through feat exists to allow you to pass objects with the entirety of your body, and the Ghostly Grasp for fine manipulation.

At my table I have houseruled that a ghost without Ghostly Grasp can interact with objects in the material plane if the character can concentrate for 10 minutes (same time as if you wanted to turn an item incorporeal to carry it), so outside of combat, with some time you can do on your own most things that a character is expected to be able to do in an adventure. You still need the Ghostly Grasp for the advanced undead benefits, and also to interact more quickly with your environment by rolling Athletics or Thievery, which can be useful in combat. To pass through objects you still need the corresponding feat, although I'm ignoring the slowed 1 part so you can still use the feat again to exit.

Resurrecting this thread since I have some questions as well about this spell...

"A cloak of swirling colors shrouds the target. Creatures are dazzled while adjacent to it, and attacking the target causes a brilliant flash of light. A creature that hits the target with a melee attack must attempt a Will save.
Success The attacker is unaffected.
Failure The attacker is blinded for 1 round.
Critical Failure The attacker is stunned for 1 round.

The creature is temporarily immune until the end of its turn; this effect has the incapacitation trait."

1- I assume that "the creature is temporarily immune until the end of its turn" means that the attacker only has to save once against the spell even if it makes several attacks against the target protected by the cloak of colors. Is that right?

2- The same line says that the effect has the incapacitation trait. Is it referring to the blinded condition, the stunned condition, both..?


Quick update: I sent Paizo CS an email a while ago to see if they could update the original link. I can see the document now even if I'm not logged in GD, so I assume everyone should be able to access it with no problems.


It seems that after Google Drive updated their policies last year, the link on the document went dead.

Here you have it:


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Hi everyone.

It seems that due to changes in the GD policy, the old link to the WotR document is dead.

Several people have asked me to access the document.

Here you have the new link.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Dear Paizo CS,

Please cancel all my subscriptions (Pathfinder AP and Starfinder AP) ASAP, due to a raise in shipping and taxes on my country it's impossible for me to maintain them.

Thank you.

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Staffan Johansson wrote:

The other difference between Stunned and Slowed is what happens if you get the condition on your own turn (usually as the result of a reaction). If you become Stunned on your own turn, the turn ends and you remain stunned until the start of your next turn. If you become Slowed on your own turn, nothing happens immediately because Slowed only eats actions at the start of your turn.

This seems to contradict the sidebar on page 622. It says that if you get stunned on your turn, you don't change the number of actions you have in that moment. This section, unless I am misreading, talks about Stunned (value):

Gaining and Losing Actions
Quickened, slowed, and stunned are the primary ways you can gain or lose actions on a turn. The rules for how this works appear on page 462. In brief, these conditions alter how many actions you regain at the start of your turn; thus, gaining the condition in the middle of your turn doesn’t adjust your number of actions on that turn. If you have conflicting conditions that affect your number of actions, you choose which actions you lose. For instance, the action gained from haste lets you only Stride or Strike, so if you need to lose one action because you’re also slowed, you might decide to lose the action from haste, letting you keep your other actions that can be used more flexibly.

If what you are saying is that the Stunned (duration) takes away all your actions for the duration (normal actions, reactions, free actions) and affects you righ away, then we are in agreement.

The second paragraph of the same sidebar also seems to exclude Stunned (value) as a condition that takes away your reactions, since it only changes the number of actions you regain:

Some conditions prevent you from taking a certain subset of actions, typically reactions. Other conditions simply say you can’t act. When you can’t act, you’re unable to take any actions at all. Unlike slowed or stunned, these don’t change the number of actions you regain; they just prevent you from using them. That means if you are somehow cured of paralysis on your turn, you can act immediately.

IMHO the text in the stunned condition is confusing and could benefit from clarification.

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I think in the case of stunned it is different if Stunned has a value or a set duration.

If your are stunned 1 its the same from a mechanics standpoint as slowed. When you regaint actions at the start of your turn, you lose some actions/all of them depending on the value of the condition.

If you are stunned for 1 round, you have no capacity to act during that time, including your reaction. No normal actions, no reaction, no free actions of any kind.

The "you can't act" seems to relate to the set duration variation: "If you can’t act, you can’t use any actions, including reactions and free actions."

If that would apply to the value version, the number would be meaningless. Stunned 1 would be the same as stunned 3.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

My 2 cents.

AlastarOG wrote:

I had Veshumerix use hit and run tactics while hasted to dive bomb into the Magma.

1 action dive out of magma, 2 actions breath or fireball, 1 action dive into magma.

The players hated it. Fun times!

Could you please detail a bit how did the combat went? I read about your changes to Veshumirix and Ilssrah (and plan on implementing them). Was the challenge ok? In this edition it seems hard to counter a strategy based on enemies that change terrain at the start and at the end of their turn due to the limits on the Ready action. How did the players dealt with this "lava bomb" tactic?

what's your party composition? did the elementals that fight with the dragon proved effective?

Many thanks.

Hi Raychael.

Thanks for the quick response.

Please cancel the clockwork dragon and ship the rest of the order ASAP.

Thank you!


I made this order a while ago. At the time all was ok. Usually Paizo orders take a 2-3 weeks to reach my home, but today I wondered why the order has not arrived yet, and I saw a message on the order regarding the shipping method, a problem that I needed to contact CS to solve.

What's the problem?


Hi everyone.

Reading this spell, I have two questions about it. Hope you can help me.

- Can you fulfill the requirement for the contingency to activate by yourself? So the trigger would be something simple but with some details to not worry about triggering it by accident, like "I touch my forehead with two fingers" (goku style). I think the answer to this is yes, but would like to check anyway.

- I'm not sure to what is referring the text when it says "During the casting, choose a trigger under which the spell will be cast, using the same restrictions as for the trigger of a Ready action". I have read the Ready action, but it doesn't really talk about restrictions, only that you cannot ready a free action that already has a trigger. Can anyone explain this part of the spell to me?


Contingency Spell 7
Source Core Rulebook pg. 326 2.0
Traditions arcane
Deities Nalinivati, Valmallos
Cast 10 minutes (material, somatic, verbal)
Duration 24 hours

You prepare a spell that will trigger later. While casting contingency, you also cast another spell of 4th level or lower with a casting time of no more than 3 actions. This companion spell must be one that can affect you. You must make any decisions for the spell when you cast contingency, such as choosing a damage type for resist energy. During the casting, choose a trigger under which the spell will be cast, using the same restrictions as for the trigger of a Ready action. Once contingency is cast, you can cause the companion spell to come into effect as a reaction with that trigger. It affects only you, even if it would affect more creatures. If you define complicated conditions, as determined by the GM, the trigger might fail. If you cast contingency again, the newer casting supersedes the older.

Heightened (8th) You can choose a spell of 5th level or lower.
Heightened (9th) You can choose a spell of 6th level or lower.
Heightened (10th) You can choose a spell of 7th level or lower.

Ready Action:

Ready Two Actions


Source Core Rulebook pg. 470 2.0You prepare to use an action that will occur outside your turn. Choose a single action or free action you can use, and designate a trigger. Your turn then ends. If the trigger you designated occurs before the start of your next turn, you can use the chosen action as a reaction (provided you still meet the requirements to use it). You can’t Ready a free action that already has a trigger.

If you have a multiple attack penalty and your readied action is an attack action, your readied attack takes the multiple attack penalty you had at the time you used Ready. This is one of the few times the multiple attack penalty applies when it’s not your turn.


the Interact action explicitly says that you need your hand to do something. You cannot do that if the hand is holding something, unless going by the rules that "something" doesn't take up your hand.

The only thing I know that has the manipulate trait and explicitly tells you that you not need a free hand to execute is the somatic component when casting a spell, such as Lay on Hands. The somatic component also covers the spells that require a touch. This is different.

In my game I ruled that you need a free hand to touch the recipient of the spell and get the healing. If you have a weapon in hand, you either have to drop it or stow it. One hand is enough, you don't need to free both of your hands.

But of course the GM can rule otherwise.

I completely forgot about See Invisibility when I made my post, sorry about that.

See Invisibility should be the spell to go in this particular case.

Thank you!

My players have talked about this as well. My plan is to let them, and have stronger results based on what they do:

- If they use the Consecrate ritual and the help of the cleric of Desna from Breachill, they will be able to use the tree of dreams again, and share the effects of the Dreamstone.

- If they go the extra mile and work really hard, like summoning a desna-related celestial with planar binding to help with the repairs, I'll allow them to benefit from a vision, similar to the ones you could have with the tree of nightmares, but with different mechanics. Basically if they rest in the beds near the tree, I'll allow them a Will save with a DC based on their level at the moment +8 or +10 (still deciding), and on a success (only one vision per adventure), they'll get a small glimpse of things to come, that can help them with some difficult encounters.

My 2 cents.

Hi everyone.

I have an encounter I'll have to run some sessions away.

This encounter features the monster Poltergeist. This creature has the following ability:

Natural Invisibility A poltergeist is naturally invisible. It becomes visible only when it uses Frighten.

Since my casters have True Seeing, I'm wondering how this two game elements interact if they cast the spell in combat.

True Seeing:

True Seeing Spell 6
Divination Revelation
Source Core Rulebook pg. 378 2.0
Traditions arcane, divine, occult, primal
Bloodlines diabolic, genie
Cast Two Actions somatic, verbal
Duration 10 minutes
You see things within 60 feet as they actually are. The GM rolls a secret counteract check against any illusion or transmutation in the area, but only for the purpose of determining whether you see through it (for instance, if the check succeeds against a polymorph spell, you can see the creature's true form, but you don't end the polymorph spell).

Natural Invisibility doesn't have the illusion keyword, but it is basically a permanent invisibility effect... would you allow for true seeing to work against it? for the record, these poltergeists are more powerful than the one in the Bestiary.


Hi CS folks,

Today I have tried to make a new order, using the holidays promo code.

When I reach the 4th step in the checkout, the system doesn't correctly display the 10% discount from Paizo for the shipping, and the 10% discounto from the promo code. Reading the terms&conditions, both should apply, unless I'm missing something.

Could you please take a look at this so I can place the order?

Thank you!

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The spell only describes how it works against spells and magic items, and the "target" section is quite clear, so in my games I only allow to use it that way.

I think the "effect" word may be a fragment of an earlier draft of the spell before the rules were finalized.

Thanks guys!

Hi everyone.

A player of mine has asked me a question about this two game elements and the order of resolution in a situation where both apply. I have tried searching the internet for answers but I find nothing on this specifically.

Imagine two PCs. One of them has a shield raised, it is hit by an enemy, and uses Shield Block. This PC has another ally, a champion, that is in range and uses Retributive Strike to reduce the damage of the attack.

How do you resolve this? wich one goes first, Shield block or Retributive Strike?


Shield Block:

Shield Block Reaction Feat 1
Source Core Rulebook pg. 266 2.0
Trigger: While you have your shield raised, you would take damage from a physical attack.
You snap your shield in place to ward off a blow. Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to the shield’s Hardness. You and the shield each take any remaining damage, possibly breaking or destroying the shield.

Retributive Strike:

Retributive Strike Reaction
Source Core Rulebook pg. 107 2.0
Trigger: An enemy damages your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you.You protect your ally and strike your foe. The ally gains resistance to all damage against the triggering damage equal to 2 + your level. If the foe is within reach, make a melee Strike against it.

After reviewing the quarry, I wanted to improve the areas where the giants live, and got some ideas after reading the Minderhal article in the Giantslayer AP.

What I'll probably do is modify the room where Jaggaki is, so it has runes hidden in the walls that you can use to activate the portal to Stonepeak (Minderhal's realm). Jaggaki has procured himself some sacred stones (required for the ritual), but he seems incapable of using them. the critical part is the order of activation of the runes hidden in the walls, and that you need to sing a paean to Minderhal while doing it to complete the ritual.

So depending on how the PCs play this part, and if they roll well enought to investigate the cave and deduce its purpose and what's needed, they may be able to open the portal(aiding Jaggaki, or after defeating him). That will summon Great Elder Iuu (Minderhal's Herald), accompanied by some fiendish stone giants.

My group ALWAYS try to socialize with NPCs (and they passed the checks to recognize the symbols that Canton Jhaltero saw in the quarry before he closed it, so they know more or less the ), so I suspect this will be a social encounter that the PCs can use to get an edge against the Triad.

If the conversation with Iuu goes well, he may gift them a lesser version of Anfaru to use temporarily, until they "clean" the quarry and leave the chambers of Minderhal to new generations of stone giants.

If things don't go well, Iuu will rebuke them and tell them not to activate the portal again or suffer a severe punishment.

If thing go SUPER WELL, maybe Iuu will offer to teach the group about creating some magic items in their next downtime. I have a halfing druid with an affinity for stone and the Magical Crafting feat, so I think this will be a cool opportunity for him to get some interesting formulas.

If Jaggaki is still alive and the portal opens... well, that can lead to an interesting situation since the lich is not a follower of Minderhal and only want to summon devils from Stonepeak to fullfill his own agenda. If the players know this, maybe they will use it to gain Iuu's trust in the conversation.

Hi everyone.

I'm not sure how to resolve the following situation, hope you can help me:

You have a character that has the wounded 3 condition. An enemy knocks the character unconscious by attacking and dealing enough damage to reduce the PC to 0 hitpoints.

Can the PC spend a hero point through Hero Recovery to avoid gaining the dying condition, wich will put it at dying 4 (dying 1 + wounded 3), killing it instantly?

The thing that makes me doubt if this is possible is the fact that Heroic Recovery requires the dying value to increase. Does it count as an "increase" if you go from normal status to dying 1?

Just to be clear, in this example the character doesn't have any feat or game element that affects the standard value of the dying condition that it can acquire before dying.


Heroic Recovery:

Heroic Recovery
Source Core Rulebook pg. 460
If you have at least 1 Hero Point (page 467), you can spend all of your remaining Hero Points at the start of your turn or when your dying value would increase. You lose the dying condition entirely and stabilize with 0 Hit Points. You don’t gain the wounded condition or increase its value from losing the dying condition in this way, but if you already had that condition, you don’t lose it or decrease its value.

Wounded Condition:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 623 2.0
You have been seriously injured. If you lose the dying condition and do not already have the wounded condition, you become wounded 1. If you already have the wounded condition when you lose the dying condition, your wounded condition value increases by 1. If you gain the dying condition while wounded, increase your dying condition value by your wounded value.

The wounded condition ends if someone successfully restores Hit Points to you with Treat Wounds, or if you are restored to full Hit Points and rest for 10 minutes.

TheWanderingM wrote:

Hi guys,

A question to you if you already have progressed further into the path.

I was planning to have my group stumble upon an abandoned wizard tower in the jungle and the wizard or scholar having made research into this part of the world examining the aspect of Dahak and the events that transpired all that time ago. I want to use it to double down on the history as explained by the Ekujae (from a different perspective) but also to drop in hints of that the gold seems tainted not only by arsene but seems to also inherit a kind of magical essence.

I would also like to mention that this wizard was aware of hunter gate and the inherent flaw that let the aspect of Dahak go on the rampage and here I'd like some thoughts if this is too early /gives away anything from later books in the path?


I see no problem here.

I did the same as you, and considered the gold taint magical in nature, and the arsenic statblock just a guidance about how the taint affects a body. It worked perfectly.

My players don't look at gold the same way anymore after finishing this part :-)

As for the wizard knowing about the flaw... well, he may not know the specifics and just have a theory. My players thought about that on their own when the ekujae told them their legend, after seeing for themselves the manifestation of Dahak and the damage inside Huntergate.

We have played two more sessions, and as I predicted, the PCs defeated the sixth and seventh floors, and then retreated because they were depleted of resources.

Barushak and his minions fled, and now I'm thinking about how to position this new forces in the quarry.

- The two scarlet triad thugs will be in the trail (area J1) watching over the tunnel. They know they have enemies, and Laslunn is smart. There is no way that they will leave this part undefended. This two guys will periodically switch positions with those in areas J3-J4, so there will be gaps in the defense that smart players can exploit.

- Barushak will be with Laslunn in J11. For ease of play on my side, I will change his summon spells with other spells. He can do some nasty things by throwing a wall of force and using collective tranposition (teleportation effects work through the wall) to bring the PCs he wants to the other side, so his allies can defeat them more comfortably.

I you were to change his summon spells, wich spells will you add? I'm looking for some suggestions.

At one point I thought about substituting the velstracs that accompany him for a stronger monster (a hellcat or a more powerful kyton like a sacristan), but right now I lean toward keeping the three evangelists and making them elite (7th lvl, so they shouldn't be a big problem for 11th level characters).

Again, any suggestions about this will be appreciated.

- I don't know what to do about the rakshasas that appear in the Longroads coffehouse. My party never got to the place to experience the encounter, only the aftermath. For my game I have established that Vaklish and his two rakshasa cronies went to the Terapasillion, and there did a ritual that allowed them to tap into the remnants of Barzillai by using his original mace as a focus. Maybe the two rakshasas went back to this place and won't appear at the quarry? If you had this same situation, will you use them in the quarry? where?

The mace will be in Vaklish posession, so if the PCs defeat him, they can undo the ritual at the Terapasillion to stop the remnants/hauntings from appearing ever again.

Also, I noticed that the module doesn't describe how high are the exterior walls of the quarry. Smart PCs may want to climb them to have a tactical advantage or to do some scouting. I'm thinking 50-60 ft. should be enough. What do you think?

Hi everyone.

So after the new errata you define all your carried items in one of three categories: held, worn, and stowed

Is there something preventing a character from declaring every item as worn? (aside from DM intervention).

The only limit seems to be the max. 2 Bulk on worn tools, and I assume every character will stow some items inside their backpack to benefit from the "2 free bulk".

Is this how it is supposed to work from now on?


So it seems that RAW you keep all your racial traits except those that are specifically disallowed by the spell, such as attacks other than what the beast form you adopt allows.

Hi everyone.

I think this may be a stupid question, but I would like to check if I'm right about this.

So in my game I have a halfling druid. He casts the spell Animal Form.

Does he lose access to heritage mechanics, like Keen Eyes? Does he lose access to the Halfling Luck feat?

I think the answer to both is no he doesn't, by reading the spell and the polymorpth trait rules. He gains the animal trait and that's it. Maybe I'm missing something.


Polymorph Trait:


Source Core Rulebook pg. 635 1.1

These effects transform the target into a new form. A target can’t be under the effect of more than one polymorph effect at a time. If it comes under the effect of a second polymorph effect, the second polymorph effect attempts to counteract the first. If it succeeds, it takes effect, and if it fails, the spell has no effect on that target. Any Strikes specifically granted by a polymorph effect are magical. Unless otherwise stated, polymorph spells don’t allow the target to take on the appearance of a specific individual creature, but rather just a generic creature of a general type or ancestry.

If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.) Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items.

Animal Form:

Animal Form Spell 2
Polymorph Transmutation
Source Core Rulebook pg. 317 1.1
Traditions primal
Deities Angazhan, Cernunnos, Geryon, Kazutal, Lamashtu, Stag Mother of the Forest of Stones, Wadjet
Cast Two Actions somatic, verbal
Duration 1 minute
You call upon primal energy to transform yourself into a Medium animal battle form. When you first cast this spell, choose ape, bear, bull, canine, cat, deer, frog, shark, or snake. You can decide the specific type of animal (such as lion or snow leopard for cat), but this has no effect on the form's Size or statistics. While in this form, you gain the animal trait. You can Dismiss the spell.

You gain the following statistics and abilities regardless of which battle form you choose:

AC = 16 + your level. Ignore your armor's check penalty and Speed reduction.
5 temporary Hit Points.
Low-light vision and imprecise scent 30 feet.
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +9, and your damage bonus is +1. These attacks are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example). If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
Athletics modifier of +9, unless your own modifier is higher.

You also gain specific abilities based on the type of animal you choose:

Ape Speed 25 feet, climb Speed 20 feet; Melee Single Action fist, Damage 2d6 bludgeoning.
Bear Speed 30 feet; Melee Single Action jaws, Damage 2d8 piercing; Melee Single Action claw (agile), Damage 1d8 slashing.
Bull Speed 30 feet; MeleeSingle Action horn , Damage 2d8 piercing.
Canine Speed 40 feet; Melee Single Action jaws, Damage 2d8 piercing.
Cat Speed 40 feet; MeleeSingle Action jaws, Damage 2d6 piercing; Melee Single Action claw (agile), Damage 1d10 slashing.
Deer Speed 50 feet; MeleeSingle Action antler , Damage 2d6 piercing.
Frog Speed 25 feet, swim Speed 25 feet; MeleeSingle Action jaws, Damage 2d6 bludgeoning; Melee Single Action tongue (reach 15 feet), Damage 2d4 bludgeoning.
Shark swim Speed 35 feet; Melee Single Action jaws, Damage 2d8 piercing; breathe underwater but not in air.
Snake Speed 20 feet, climb Speed 20 feet, swim Speed 20 feet; Melee Single Action fangs , Damage 2d4 piercing plus 1d6 poison.

Heightened (3rd) You instead gain 10 temporary HP, AC = 17 + your level, attack modifier +14, damage bonus +5, and Athletics +14.
Heightened (4th) Your battle form is Large and your attacks have 10-foot reach. You must have enough space to expand into or the spell is lost. You instead gain 15 temporary HP, AC = 18 + your level, attack modifier +16, damage bonus +9, and Athletics +16.
Heightened (5th) Your battle form is Huge and your attacks have 15-foot reach. You must have enough space to expand into or the spell is lost. You instead gain 20 temporary HP, AC = 18 + your level, attack modifier +18, damage bonus +7 and double the number of damage dice, and Athletics +20.

SuperBidi wrote:
The fact that the wall has AC and hardness proves that you can attack it. And as such, even if objects can pass through (as they obviously don't have to make a save) someone's weapons will not if he believes in the wall. It's the magic of illusions!

My thoughts exactly.

Also, regarding the defensive capacity of the invisible wall, I noticed that objects in the CRB don't have immunity to critical hits or precision damage (pg.273 in the Core Rulebook), so I think the reasoning posed earlier that the wall should be immune to crits/precision because it is an inanimate object is not correct. Heck, this wall is not even an object, it only exist in your mind after seeing someone mime it!

I'm not a number-cruncher, but it may be important for the balance of the game that this cantrip wall doesn't have the same immunities as other wall spells that require spending slots.

Gortle wrote:

Simply because they believe there is a wall there and believe it is an effective barrier, that is they believe that firing a bolt through the wall is going to fail.
Else what are they believing?

I think they believe there is a invisible wall where there is none; not that they cannot do anything about it with the weapon in hand. If the intent of the wall is to act as a "demoralizing barrier" as you say, the description probably would say something like "the enemies believe the wall is impenetrable and cannot take offensive actions against it". Or something like that.

Also the fact that the spell tells you the AC, Hardness and hitpoints means IMHO that enemies should be able to interact violently with the imaginary wall if they don't disbelieve it.

You may argue that a specific enemy may not know what spell it is dealing with, and because of this lack of knowledge, tries to avoid the wall instead of hitting it to destroy it. But I think that is a different type of discussion that depends on the type of creature/personality/background.

Cordell Kintner wrote:

1. I believe it's a 2 dimensional wall, so 10 feet high, 10 feet wide. It would go on an edge of your square. It would probably be like a foot, so you could climb it and sit on top and what not, but mechanically it doesn't matter since it doesn't mention thickness anywhere.

2. Yea it would use perception.

3. Most of the time, allies would not be affected by an allies illusions, as they would likely tell them ahead of time that they use illusions and what to look out for. I would think if the creature failed, they wouldn't be able to use melee strikes. They would believe the strikes are hitting the wall. Meanwhile projectiles would move through it, but if the creature fails to disbelieve they might THINK their arrow bounced off an invisible wall and stop using them.

4. It would be an object and have object immunities, assuming they fail the perception check.

Thank you for answering all the questions, much appreciated!

Gortle wrote:

I think it is important to note that if they think the wall is real they won't even try to fire a bolt at it.

Not unless they have another reason to do so. Like an ally telling them to because its not real, or seeing something pass through the wall.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here.

The wall is invisible and if you are a bad guy you can clearly see your enemies (the PCs) on the other side of it. I honestly can't think of a reason why you can't fire a bolt at it, as you could against a Wall of Force for example, to take it down and reach them.

Even if there are no PCs in sight, the enemy might just want to take the wall down to keep moving, because (insert reason for bad guy to move from point A to point B)

Hi everyone.

The bard PC in my group has taken this cantrip, and after reading it I have some questions about how to run it correctly. I think it is quite open to interpretation, and I would like to know how other GMS run/adjudicate it.

House of Imaginary Walls:

House of Imaginary Walls Cantrip 5
Uncommon Bard Cantrip Composition Illusion Visual
Source Core Rulebook pg. 386 1.1
Cast Single Action somatic
Range touch
Duration 1 round
You mime creating an invisible 10-foot-by-10-foot stretch of wall adjacent to you and within your reach. The wall is solid to those creatures that don't disbelieve it, even incorporeal creatures. You and your allies can voluntarily believe the wall exists to continue to treat it as solid, for instance to climb onto it. A creature that disbelieves the illusion is temporarily immune to your house of imaginary walls for 1 minute. The wall doesn't block creatures that didn't see your visual performance, nor does it block objects. The wall has AC 10, Hardness equal to double the spell's level, and HP equal to quadruple the spell's level.

- The spell creates "an invisible 10-foot-by-10-foot stretch of wall adjacent to you and within your reach". The description seems ambiguous regarding how thick it is. Should it be a 10-foot length/5-foot width/10-foot high wall? (4 squares in total) or is it a 10x10x10 wall? (8 squares in total)

- "The wall is solid to those creatures that don't disbelieve it, even incorporeal creatures". Ok, so according to the general rules regarding illusions (Core Rulebook pg.298), if a creature tries to step through the invisible wall, it should roll a Perception check against the caster Spell DC (this cantrip is not a mental effect, so Will shouldn't be used). Is this correct?

- Are the caster's allies affected by the wall by default? It seems they are not affected because they are given a choice to consider the wall solid when that is beneficial in some way.

- The description says that "The wall doesn't block creatures that didn't see your visual performance, nor does it block objects". So, if an enemy fires a crossbow through the wall, does it have to roll Perception to disbelieve (the bolt interacts with the wall), or does the bolt go through the invisible wall unimpeded? I use a crossbow as an example, but this question should apply to any weapon that can reach a character on the other side of the wall. I think the general question should be: is there a difference between an object wielded by a creature and an object that is not wielded when establishing if the object ignores the wall or not?

- The last part of the spell talks about the statistics (AC, Hardness, and HP). However, unlike most of the other "wall" spells that I have read, it doesn't say that the wall is immune to critical hits and precision damage, so I assume you can crit it and also deal sneak attack damage. Is this correct?


Yeah, my idea is to reinforce the quarry with Barushak & co.

Regarding the slaves, as you said, I think he values them for the money. If the slavers can exit Kintargo in the night to go to the quarry, Barushak would surely keep the slaves.

As xcmt suggested, Laria will escape. Where she ends and how the characters will meet her, that depends on how the game flows.

Killing the prisoners is an extreme measure that Barushak may use depending on how the characters try to deal with the tower. I think that's what the adventure comments when it says that he will strike some kind of deal (this was cut in the final draft, it seems).

The other thing to keep in mind is what happens in the other two locations: Lady Docur's and Long roads Coffeehouse. I think if my players have too much trouble, maybe Mialari will end up in Tanessen Tower to help them fight the Triad, after interrogating or releasing the slavers by herself. As for the rakshasas and barzillai spectres in the Coffeehouse, after one or two hours, the rakshasas will probably relocate to the quarry, reinforcing it. The spectres I don't know... maybe I'll keep them were they are, and the characters will face them as stated in the module; or maybe the city guards will find out about the situation (at some point someone has to notice the strange things happening inside the coffeehouse) and deal with it, of course with some deaths. The PCs will find about this when they visit the location and talk to a pair of guards that keep the place closed until a group of clerics from the city guard can "declare it clean" from the supernatural apparitions.

This is something I'll have to think about for my next session.

GimmeYourShoes wrote:
Any thoughts on what y'all would do if your players defeated the lower and middle floor of Tanessen Tower and then decided to leave for an eight hour rest?

I'm on the same boat as you. My party reached Tanessen tower after the fight with the gelugon (following the trail, their rolls were high enough) and bypassed the sixth floor (the enemies didn't detect them). They were discovered by golems on the seventh floor, and right now they hare dealing with the 3 poisoners and one golem (the other was defeated). Since they have made a a lot of noise, and one of the poisoners called for help, the whole tower is on alert.

I think Deadmanwalking's is the way I'll approach the situation if the party defeats the sixth and seventh floor, and then run away to rest. The fight in Sunset Imports and Kite Hill took quite a lot of resources from them so I see it as the most probable situation, although it may be that my players will try to finish the tower and deal with Barushak because they expect consecuences for their actions.

BeardedTree wrote:
So I'm still preparing for the fight with One-Eye Amnin and I have to ask. Shouldn't he have Improved Knockdown? That would make his Pummeling Flurry more dangerous and would make more sense for those two attacks to be combined into one action like that.

I added improved knockdown to his greatclub attack, and it worked great, upping his offense and surprising the characters.

I like your suggestion a lot.

For now I'll use it in my games and see how it goes.

Thanks Fuzzy-Wuzzy!

Hi everyone,

I have taken a look at the spell and I am confused about what "transform the target creature into a harmless animal" really means from a rules standpoint.

Usually when a polymorph spell changes your numbers, it does say so in the description.

The failure line talks about changing only the target's body, and the critical failure changes both body and mind. But it doesn't tell you how to calculate those.

So if an enemy turns your character into a squirrel because you roll a failure or critical failure, do you keep your AC, saves, HP.. values? How do you apply the effects of this spell?

Thank you!

Baleful Polymorph:

Baleful Polymorph Spell 6

Incapacitation Polymorph Transmutation
Source Core Rulebook pg. 320 1.1
Traditions arcane, primal
Bloodline hag
Deities Mother Vulture, The Lantern King
Cast Two Actions somatic, verbal
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving Throw Fortitude; Duration varies

You transform the target creature into a harmless animal appropriate to the area, with effects based on its Fortitude save.

Critical Success The target is unaffected.
Success The target's body gains minor features of the harmless animal. Its insides churn as they partially transform, causing it to be sickened 1. When it recovers from the sickened condition, its features revert to normal.

Failure The target transforms for 1 minute but keeps its mind. If it spends all its actions on its turn concentrating on its original form, it can attempt a Will save to end the effect immediately.

Critical Failure The target is transformed into the chosen harmless animal, body and mind, for an unlimited duration.

Ok, so you do as I and don't modify the AC/F initiative at all.

But how do you do the AC/F recovery checks? do you start doing them in the master's next turn, or do you skip that and start on the following round to keep the "you have one round to be healed before you start rolling recovery checks"?

Hi everyone.

I have a question about the interaction between animal companions/familiars and the death/dying rules.

Core Rulebook pg. 459:

Player characters, their companions, and other significant characters and creatures don’t automatically die when they reach 0 Hit Points. Instead, they are knocked out and are at risk of death. At the GM’s discretion, villains, powerful monsters, special NPCs, and enemies with special abilities that are likely to bring them back to the fight (like ferocity, regeneration, or healing magic) can use these rules as well.

As a player character, when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, you’re knocked out with the following effects:

- You immediately move your initiative position to directly before the turn in which you were reduced to 0 HP.
- You gain the dying 1 condition. If the effect that knocked you out was a critical success from the attacker or the result of your critical failure, you gain the dying 2 condition instead. If you have the wounded condition, increase your dying value by an amount equal to your wounded value. If the damage was dealt by a nonlethal attack or nonlethal effect, you don’t gain the dying condition; you are instead unconscious with 0 Hit Points.

I start from the premise that this rules apply to AC/F. They seem significant enough to me to not kill them when they reach 0 hit points, but maybe I'm understanding that part wrong.

The problem I see is with the "You immediately move your initiative position to directly before the turn in which you were reduced to 0 HP" rule.

Since animal companions and familiars have no initiative of their own (they go with the PC that owns them), it doesn't seem possible to apply the rule as written. I suppose you could separate the animal companion's initiative when they go down in combat and make it join the PC's initiative again when they are healed and regain consciousness, but it seems weird to me.

What I have done until now as a temprary solution is that when the AC/F goes unconscious and starts dying, it doesn't make a recovery check on the owner's next turn, it starts with the next one after. That way, you "preserve" the idea that the characters have one full round to heal their ally before it starts rolling recovery checks. Hope I have explained myself clearly enough...

So after taking a look at the forums, I haven't found an answer to this. How do you fellow DM's out there rule this and solve it in your games? Is there anything I'm missing?

Thank you!

In my game my PCs have cleared Cypress Point and are resting prior to the trip to Kintargo. They have talked about owning the genie's smile and maybe sell it, but I have no idea about how many gold pieces a ship of that size is worth.

Assuming the PCs want to sell the ship, and that they find a buyer, how much money should they get? I'm looking for an amount of money that doesn't alter too much the supposed wealth the characters should have at the levels indicated in the adventure. Did anyone came up with a specific value?


Thank you for the answers!

From now on, I'll let the push effect free grabbed creatures if it pushes the grabber away enough (the monster can have reach). The bolded part in the "Grab" description seems clear enough to me.

If the creature is specialized in grabbing (as was the case with the combat I described), I'll keep the Athletics check to see if both grabbed and grabee are pushed, or only the grabber, thus ending the grab. But in most cases, pushing the monster away will free you.

Hi everyone.

In the last session I DMed, a situation arose that I haven't found explained in the rules.

Basically the PCs are fighting a monster that specializes in grabbing its prey. It grabbed the bard, and the character had a very low chance of escaping before being constricted to death.

Another character, the monk, used Tiger Slash (monk feat 6), and after hitting the monster the player asked me if the push effect of this feat could help the bard. I ruled that the monk had to make an athletics check against the monster DC as if trying to escape, and if successful, the Tiger Slash would push the monster away from the bard, freeing him. If the roll fails, then the monster would be pushed, dragging the bard with it.

Fortunately, the roll was successful, the monster was pushed away, and the bard was saved :-)

So, what do you think about this ruling? is it covered somewhere in the rulebook? I could swear I read something in the CRB about this situation but I cannot find anything.

Tiger Slash:

Tiger Slash Two Actions Feat 6
Source Core Rulebook pg. 161
Prerequisites Tiger Stance
Requirements You are in Tiger Stance.
You make a fierce swipe with both hands. Make a tiger claw Strike. It deals two extra weapon damage dice (three extra dice if you’re 14th level or higher), and you can push the target 5 feet away as if you had successfully Shoved them. If the attack is a critical success and deals damage, add your Strength modifier to the persistent bleed damage from your tiger claw.

Also, regarding the Grab monster ability, I have a question about how it is extended.

So basically if a monster has an attack that grabs, after you hit you spend the next action and the creature you hit is automatically grabbed until the end of the monster's next turn. No roll required.

What happens in the following rounds? reading the text of the ability, my understanding was that you spend another action to use "Grab" and the grab is automatically renewed until the end of the monster's next turn, again no roll required. However, I have seen Jason Bulmahn in some YouTube games doing an athletics roll to maintain the grab... have I been using Grab wrong?

Grab Single Action
Source Bestiary pg. 343
Requirements The monster's last action was a success with a Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry, or it has a creature grabbed using this action. Effect The monster automatically Grabs the target until the end of the monster's next turn. The creature is grabbed by whichever body part the monster attacked with, and that body part can't be used to Strike creatures until the grab is ended.

Using Grab extends the duration of the monster's Grab until the end of its next turn for all creatures grabbed by it. A grabbed creature can use the Escape action to get out of the grab, and the Grab ends for a grabbed creatures if the monster moves away from it.


Hey toiletSloth, thanks for the suggestion!

Since there is no entry in the stablock for the spellbook, we don't know exactly how many spells are in there, so going only by her prepared spells list I get the following:

Cantrips: 5 x 2 gp = 10 gp
1st: 4 x 2 gp = 8 gp
2nd: 4 x 6 gp = 24 gp
3rd: 3 x 16 gp = 48 gp

Total of 90 gp.

90/2 = 45 gp sale value.

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Hi everyone.

I have DMed this module for 10 sessions, and my players are (very likely) gonna face Ralldar next session. I suppose we will need that session and maybe another one to finish book 1. This thread has been a huge help in running my game.

I made a few changes to the story so it would fit better for my group.

- I altered the timeline, so basically when the players arrive to attend the Call of Heroes, the Council is going to give them the job to aprehend the Bloody Blades. That was until the night before the meeting, the red smoke appeared on the citadel, and Warbal appealed the Council the next morning to change the job, and the cultists have just arrived to the dungeon, collapsed the stairst, etc in the night before the day the game starts. The "1 month passes before anyone does something" just didn't work for me.

- I introduced Calmont into the backstory of one of my players (halfling druid with the Bellflower network background), he was a friend to one halfling that died trying to help the PC flee Kintargo (the character was a slave to a noble house before the rebellion). After some years passed, the night before the adventure starts, the character delivered the news to Calmont about his friend's demise, and that broke him. That night, he made the decision to explore the citadel and control the access to Alseta's Ring. That basically made him a little more complex than what is established in the book. When the group found him in the citadel, they tried talking to him, trying to make him see that he had caused A LOT of trouble in the town and he should be held responsible for his actions. After a chase that saw him climbing down one of the walls of the citadel, with two players climbing after him, and both falling (one on top of each other, yeah you have read that right), they captured him and brought him to Breachill to face trial. The PC that had a connection to him tried to spoke to Greta Gardania, so he wasn't executed but punished in a different way.

- I turned the hellknight skeleton in the crypt into Talnor Stagram, Alak's father. It was fantastic as the group entered the crypts, Alak recognized his father and fell to his knees. It took the intervention of the gnome bard (Hellknight Historian background) to make him join the fight and deliver the final rest to his father. This was the first hard encounter that the group had, until this point most of the fights had been manageable (even the giant bat, wich I thought would be much more dangerous). The gelatinous cube is another encounter that turned to be easy, the players saved against the paralysis and didn't have to deal with the suffocation from being swallowed whole.

- The Bloody Blades have been hired by Quentino Posandi to rob the caravans that come from the nearby quarry to deliver goods to Tuskhead Stoneworking. Voz also knows this from her conversations with Dmiri. Since the players captured both the Blades and Voz, but didn't question them regarding this matter, maybe Voz will use this information to be released from prison. To be honest she hasn't commited any crimes aside from reanimating two soldiers from the Goblinblood Wars as her minions. I used two skeletal champions in her encounter, and it was pretty epic.

- The PCs let Balka live, and it helped them with treasure and some directions to reach Alseta's Ring after some intimidation by the human ranger ^_^

So after the Voz fight, I have a question for other DMs running this module... Voz has her spellbook and the heroes now have it. They asked to sell it but frankly I haven't found a way to price this particular item... How do you establish a price for enemies' spellbooks? This question will arise again in book 3 with Barushak.

Oh, I haven't noticed that!

Thanks for the heads up Aratorin, I think it supports the conclusiones reached in this thread.

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Ok so after all the information posted in this thread, I'll try to answer my initial questions:

- Does this sense allow the character to automatically detect creatures inside the radius when he spends an action to Seek?

Yes, the character automatically detects creatures inside the 30 ft. radius of the imprecise Scent. They become "hidden" to the character, wich means that it knows the square they are in, but still have to deal with the DC 11 flat check to target them, etc.

In case the character has to make a Perception roll against something inside the 30 ft. radius (because their scent is masked somehow), that is when the +2 to Perception checks from the heritage is applied, since it enhances all the gnome's senses.

- Wether you have to roll or not, do you still have to select a 30 ft. cone or 15 radius burst (keeping in mind that the Scent only works up to 30 ft.) when using this sense in a Seek action? Or does it function like an "aura" of sorts, detecting in a 30 ft. radius in all directions from the character's square?

Depends. If you can locate the creatures using the imprecise scent, that is done automatically within the 30 ft. radius. If they mask their smell but you still can use Scent, then you can roll if they are within 30 ft. of you. If they mask their smell and you have to use another sense, you should follow the standard rules for the Seek action, taking into account the +2 bonus to Perception.

- If you don't automatically detect creatures, how do you calculate the difficulty to detect a creature by smell inside the Scent range? I assume that the DC would be easy unless you take specific precautions that mask your smell or the conditions in the area prevent you from using Scent or make it difficult to use.

Refer to the general advice in the Core Rulebook for the DM to establish skill DCs. Depends a lot on the situation. For example, if the creature has a smell but is in a smell-heavy environment (for example an otyugh inside a sewer; or if there is a lot of smoke in the air), that probably requires a Perception check to locate them.

Thank you everyone for participating in the discussion!

Ubertron_X wrote:

I am still not quite clear how imprecise scent works in regards to unnoticed creatures and/or out of combat which afaik tends to occur quite often.

Imagine the following situation: We are in exploration mode and a unnoticed creature has sucessfully used stealth to avoid the PC's notice (aka beat all characters perception DC's) as it wants to let the PC's pass by. It did however not undertake special precaution to mask smell. A PC with the scent imprecise sense is comming within under 30 feet. What happens?

Based on the information presented in this thread, I think the character with Scent would automatically locate the creature (hidden condition), as you can't normally "hide" your smell.

So you transition from Exploration mode to Encounter mode, the creature rolls Stealth for initiative (and the result is compared to the Perception DCs to determine if the characters aside from the one with the imprecise Scent have detected it or not).

The characters roll for initiative using whatever skill makes sense for whatever they were doing before.

Then you proceed with the turns as normal.

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