Flip side, incorporeal encounters are a small subset of the overall available monsters. How much should I charge to prep for something that may not come up frequently, or at all? Not all DMs warn about enemies ahead of time, and if the creature (say, an allip) is set up as a mystery...
I dunno, it's a bit thorny.
Oh I quite agree, the overall power of the item is entirely contingent on there actually being an incorporeal creature to use it on. Just as BAB is often overvalued in PF design, I find incorporeal to be undervalued. Ghostbane-dirge for example is the earliest group buff I can find that helps with the issue. Clerics can get it at 3rd level but that would be their 1 non-domain spell for the day (not counting exceptional casting stat) and bards/inquisitors not only have to wait until 4th level they are spending half their spells known for the level to learn it.
Basically, what I'm saying is that the dust does solve a niche problem but I'd rather see two versions of it a greater that does what it does now priced a little higher, and a lesser version that works like a bit like weapon blanche. Not sure my rambling makes sense though.
It should be noted, that there is already a Twinned weapon property (at least one)
Another interesting property you might want to take a look is:
Well then. Better fix the name at the barest minimum. Continuing feedback is helping me get these hammered out; expect revisions shortly.
Hey prince, what are the playtest scenarios you and Mr. Chris are looking for?
Hey prince, what are the playtest scenarios you and Mr. Chris are looking for?
I can't speak for Chris, but in my perfect world...well, in my perfect world I'd be paid $25/hr to be doing this but in my less-perfect-but-still-awesome world I'd like to see:
- Encounters with 'classic' monstrous enemies. Demons, devils, undead, constructs (especially golems), dragons, gorgons, that kind of thing. Monsters that instantly spring to mind when you think 'D&D', 'Pathfinder', or just 'Fantasy'.
- Non-combat action encounters such as chases, infiltration, and exfiltration.
- Non-combat physical challenges such as chasms, locked doors, and traps.
- Social challenges including interrogation (acquire information), making an impression, and persuading nominal allies to follow a plan.
Mental challenges, in my experience, aren't solved with consistent enough mechanics to be reasonably tested. One DM or adventure runs riddle games or research wholly different from another one, y'know? But the above is the sort of spread I'd walk a member of every class through. A T3 class - the goal - should be able to participate in every type of encounter, even if they don't excel at all of them. To go back to Tome of Battle, a Warblade can take part of all of those challenges, even managing to help the party make a positive impression at a Countess's ball (diplomacy!).
Well, the good news for the social challenges bit is that in PF, anyone can take meaningful ranks in diplomacy, even if it's not a class skill. So I'm guessing that aspect is covered fairly well (and traits can help a lot too!)
Well, the good news for the social challenges bit is that in PF, anyone can take meaningful ranks in diplomacy, even if it's not a class skill. So I'm guessing that aspect is covered fairly well (and traits can help a lot too!)
The question at that point becomes if you can afford the skill points for it. Plus you might like Sense Motive or Bluff to help smooth the way, y'know? For an example of a class excelling in this arena, bards have the hard skill points and Charisma synergy for it, backed up by magic that both enhances their skills and obviates the need for them (such as charm).
Well, if you want to be able to focus on social skills as a class without them as class skills and the skill points, you should be human or increase your Int. Can't have eat your cake and have it too :)
I like your take on the slime better, but I ran into this as well when I was looking at the above item enhancements.
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Multiplicative bracers are undervalued for what they can add when used to multiply ammunition.
Archer Andy has a +3 longbow. He'd like to add the flaming quality. "Yikes," says he. "I've only ten thousand gold pieces to my name. I cannot afford the expense."
"Do not be so hasty, young adventurer," says a sly voice from the shadows. "These bracers cost only two thousand gold. With only a single +1 flaming arrow, your arrows will flame for ever more!"
Even if your GM made you buy the whole lot of 50 arrows, you'd still be adding flaming to your attacks for only 10k instead of the 14k necessary to go from +3 to +4 normally.
It's even probably undervalued for thrown weapons. While I like anything that makes a thrown weapon specialist more viable, a blinkback belt is 5,000gp and takes up the very valuable belt slot.
I'd price your bracers at more like 7.5 to 10k and still call it a good deal.
Even 7,500 or 10,000 gp would be incredibly cheap.
A single +5 arrow costs 1,000 gp. At their current price, buying an arrow, the bracers, and binding them means you can effectively get a +5 weapon for 3,000 gp- an item that normally costs 50,000 gp. Either the item is going to need some major re-working, or it just shouldn't work with ammunition at all.
I think not working with ammunition is the safer bet.
Design Manager
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Flip side, incorporeal encounters are a small subset of the overall available monsters. How much should I charge to prep for something that may not come up frequently, or at all? Not all DMs warn about enemies ahead of time, and if the creature (say, an allip) is set up as a mystery...
I dunno, it's a bit thorny.
Oh I quite agree, the overall power of the item is entirely contingent on there actually being an incorporeal creature to use it on. Just as BAB is often overvalued in PF design, I find incorporeal to be undervalued. Ghostbane-dirge for example is the earliest group buff I can find that helps with the issue. Clerics can get it at 3rd level but that would be their 1 non-domain spell for the day (not counting exceptional casting stat) and bards/inquisitors not only have to wait until 4th level they are spending half their spells known for the level to learn it.
Basically, what I'm saying is that the dust does solve a niche problem but I'd rather see two versions of it a greater that does what it does now priced a little higher, and a lesser version that works like a bit like weapon blanche. Not sure my rambling makes sense though.
I actually agree with this. Make a lesser version that basically gets poured on a weapon for a few rounds of ghost-smiting goodness, and then a more expensive version that does the AoE. That way, your low level guys can still take a swing with an expectation of a chance at success without creating a weird dynamic shift where the one item is better than every other alternative, and you get a cool later version that's easier on the action economy.
So, GitP asked a question and got an answer, which I shall repost for you here.
How does the Harbinger iconic look?
Kestrel of Asheholm is relatively young, for an elf - barely a hundred and twenty-two - with a lean, almost starved frame and pale blonde hair. She wears glasses over soft blue eyes, and never seems to get enough sleep. The young elf is a study in contradictions, speaking even Elven with a decidedly human accent clearly native to Asheholm, a city that has never boasted a native population of elves. She favors human fashions when not clad in armor (sea-green studded leather, emblazoned with a shattered teardrop) and favors the greatsword in battle. Her personal blade, Heartbreak, drips ice crystals when free of its sheath and can sometimes be heard quietly sobbing. Kestrel can normally be found, when not adventuring, among the weak and downtrodden, offering a helping hand or intentionally paying far too much for goods and services. Rumors abound of another elf like her, who favors scarlet and twin shortswords. The two seem to hate each other fiercely.
Items will be seeing revisions as soon as finals are over and I can engage in some manner of free time. However, you can probably expect:
- Slime broken down into lesser/normal/greater, with differing save DCs, costs, and HP pools. Current slime will probably sit at Lesser.
- Bracers will be losing ammo functionality. I'm still not sure what to do about the pricing, exactly. Wording will be introduced to address minor/greater artifact weapons (to wit: no) and the subject of magic weapon and other temporary weapon buffs.
- Dualistic weapons will be migrating to a flat +8k cost.
- Wraithslayer Dust will continue to be taken under advisement but I really, deeply want to do/see some actual testing on it. In my honest opinion it doesn't invalidate encounters to the degree that folks here/on the Paizo boards are suggesting.
As always, thank you very much for the feedback!
And Dualistic revision:
Dualistic (Weapon Enhancement)
Aura: Moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Price: 8,000 GP
Dualistic may only be applied to one-handed or light melee weapons. Dualistic weapons have a tendency to twitch or shake when sheathed, and can seem transparent or smoky when viewed from odd angles. When drawn, a dualistic weapon generates a light or one-handed melee weapon in the wielder’s other hand, made of the same materials and possessed of the same enhancement bonuses and properties (with the exception of the dualistic property itself) as the original weapon (this light or one-handed weapon is chosen at the time of the dualistic property being applied to the original weapon, and must deal damage of the same type as the original weapon. Once chosen, the generated weapon may not be changed). This second weapon is semi-real and fragile, having only half the hit points and hardness of the dualistic weapon that generates it, and vanishes when it is destroyed, if it leaves it wielder’s hand (or other appropriate appendage), or if the dualistic weapon is sheathed. The wielder may, of course, simply generate a new copy by once more drawing the dualistic weapon.
Here's a handy list that might help you out, my friend:
Feats and effects that modify attacks will modify maneuvers - Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, and the like all modify maneuvers that make attacks of the appropriate type. Note that some maneuvers may make a feat non-functional - for example, Power Attack cannot be used with touch attacks. The general rule, though, is that if it affects an attack it affects the maneuver.
Feats and effects that trigger off of attacks will trigger off of maneuvers that make the appropriate type of attack - In this case, if you use Power Attack with a maneuver that makes a melee attack, Felling Smash will trigger, which will then be further modified by Greater Trip. Likewise, if a maneuver causes you to make a combat maneuver - like a trip attempt - the appropriate feats apply. Some maneuvers simulate combat maneuvers, but do not actually use them. The only thing I can say is to keep your eyes peeled for this.
Item revisions brought to you by Luke - Novawurmson here on the forums.
We're cutting Wraithslayer for now; it'll come back.
Why is dualistic back to being a +1 equivalent?
Why is dualistic back to being a +1 equivalent?
Because it is still ridiculously cheap for what it does.
Holy crap, that's cheap.
Also, nothing is stopping you from just passing around the original version of the weapon so that everyone gets a copy of the weapon. Draw it, get the free copy, pass the original away while keeping the copy. Repeat until the original comes back to the original possessor, and suddenly everyone has a copy of the weapon, yay! Might wanna squash that, if for no other reason than to close loopholes and have better design.
Dualistic is back to +1 because that sets it as being essentially equivalent to what the Soulknife pays for the ability. The ability to pass the weapon around is being addressed, and we very definitely appreciate the catch.
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Dualistic is back to +1 because that sets it as being essentially equivalent to what the Soulknife pays for the ability. The ability to pass the weapon around is being addressed, and we very definitely appreciate the catch.
That is a very very bad reason to price it so low, you are looking at it in a vacuum which isn't good design practice. The soulknife's weapon is what the entire class is based around. When all your class abilities revolve around a weapon, you should get a break. It is essentially what you "do" after all. Giving that to every other class, cheapens what the soulknife has going for it, especially when you make it available so cheaply. A simple "+1" isn't what a soulknife "pays" for the ability, lack of feats, spells, and various other class abilities that it DOESN'T get are what the soulknife pays for that benefit. All those things that another class will get and then some, by making this class ability available for an inexpensive item enhancement. A soulknife doesn't get to cherry pick weapon enhancements, it has a list of available choices, there are restrictions. A soulknife doesn't get to add enhancements that cost a flat gold rate, they aren't on the list.
Your reasoning for the price is flawed, the cost of the ability really needs to be higher, you honestly cannot expect a comparison of class levels invested to equal out to a +1 ability. Not to mention the "fragile" drawback is essentially not a drawback (how many DMs actually sunder weapons on PCs regularly?).
The closest prices I can suggest for comparison would be the crystalline focus items and the one legendary weapon that DSP has published that grants the ability to create a mindblade.
Crystal Hilt
Aura faint psychokinesis; ML 3rd (+1), 6th (+2), 9th (+3)
Slot weapon; Price 11,200 gp (+1), 44,800 gp (+2), 100,800 gp (+3); Weight 2 lbs.
DESCRIPTIONA crystal hilt looks like a crystalline sword with no blade and comes in light, one-handed, and two-handed varieties. A soulknife, or anyone else with the ability to manifest a mind blade, channels their mind blade through the crystal hilt when summoning it. This does not otherwise alter the action needed to summon a mind blade, the summoner must simply be wielding the crystal hilt and choose to manifest the mind blade through the hilt.
Crystal hilts have 45 hit points and a hardness of 15.
When a mind blade is manifested in this fashion, the enhancement bonus and the maximum enhancement bonus of the mind blade is increased by the enhancement bonus of the crystal hilt, although any enhancement bonus above +5 is lost.
Characters wielding two mind blades only gain the benefit on the mind blade channeled through the crystal hilt. Multiple crystal hilts would be needed to affect multiple mind blades.
Throwing a mind blade while wielding a crystal hilt does not require the crystal hilt be thrown. If forming your mind blade into two blades, only one is altered by the crystal hilt unless you are wielding two crystal hilts.
Crystal hilts may only be made with a +1, +2, or +3 enhancement bonus.
Just adding a +1 to a single weapon is priced at 11k, up to +3 being 100k. You're granting another whole weapon mimicking the first weapon for what? 42k at the most?
I would suggest asking Jeremy what they did for the "formula" for those and see what he says about pricing the soulknife ability as a weapon enhancement. I know he is busy with Ult Psi and all (I contributed to the DSP kickstarter and he sends out updates religiously), but it can't hurt to have some feedback from a person who consistently puts out quality material.
I don't see why two weapon fighters getting their second weapon cheaper is a problem. They already get pay a lot in the feat department to make their shtick work, why should they also have to pay twice as much money as people with two handed weapons?
One of the simplest ways to explain the balance of Dualistic is by looking at its value at low levels and high levels.
Syonique on the DSP forums gives us an excellent breakdown of the cost of dualistic, showing that Dualistic is not worth the money until you hit +3 weapons. Another way of thinking of it would be that a +4 (+3 dualistic) weapon is cheaper than two +3 weapons. However, the dualistic weapon-user is always going to be +1 behind the two-handed weapon user. When the Fighter (or Warlord, or what have you) gets his +4 weapon, the dualistic TWF user has two +3 weapons at the same cost.
This balancing factor is most apparent at max level. The dualistic weapon user is trading the raw power of two +10 weapons for (essentially) two cost-efficient +9 weapons.
Think about if that +1 was just a flaming quality. That's +1d6 damage on hit, but a TWF thrives on multiple hits. With a +16 BAB and Greater TWF, that's 7 hits. With a haste-effect, that's 8 hits, or an average of 28 damage lost on a full attack. Some TWF players are willing to take that power hit for more flexibility in their item builds; players who value raw power will prefer shelling out the cost of an additional +10 weapon.
Just to repeat: There is a real cost of dualistic, and there is a real reason not to take it. You're trading flexibility in your item build for raw power.
There are some things out there that when you think about them, you come to the conclusion that they are obvious. Blindingly obvious. Something so simple that would help so many. The utmost base level examination of an issue, and the first solution that pops to head.
Three plus years into a system, with books focusing on Advanced Players (who are capable of juggling the benfits / cons of a +1 equivalent ability). Books focusing on martial classes (who use TWF). Books focusing entirely on items, with a good chunk of it being magical weapons and enhancements.
And yet, we don't have this utterly simple idea in the game. The professional designers haven't added it. It's almost inconceivable that they haven't thought of it. It's an extremely obvious idea.
This leaves us with a few options for how to reconcile this.
There's no need to show why this is crazy to claim.
I certainly hope that anyone with the ability to think can easily see why this is an utterly ridiculous claim. This first requires some ulterior motive on the part of the designers, which is just laughable. "I hate TWF so much I'm going to add it to the game, and just SCREW THEM OVER! YEA! THAT'LL TEACH THEM! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"
Entirely possible, but highly unlikely.
Seems far more likely than the others, given occom's razor.
There's actually already an item like this: the dagger of doubling. For fun, start enumerating all the differences between this item and the potential ability of dualistic. Also compare the tightness of design for the item and ability, listing out all the corner cases one got but the other didn't. It's fun for the whole family!
I would suggest asking Jeremy what they did for the "formula" for those and see what he says about pricing the soulknife ability as a weapon enhancement. I know he is busy with Ult Psi and all (I contributed to the DSP kickstarter and he sends out updates religiously), but it can't hurt to have some feedback from a person who consistently puts out quality material.
The formula for crystal focus items for weapons was: bonus squared times 16,000gp
16,000 for +1
64,000 for +2
144,000 for +3
Then we added a 30% price reduction for needing a class-specific ability. Giving 11,200, 44,800, 100,800.
The price for armor / shield crystal focus items was then cut in half since magic weapons cost twice magic armor or shields.
I can't comment on dualistic, as I have not evaluated it in detail, but I saw the question about the formula we used for crystal hilts.
Cheapy, the difference is that the dagger of doubling is much, much stronger than Dualistic since it's a flat 8,000 gp cost and also enables effective throwing. Especially since you can make it out of a different weapon for two weapon fighters who use weapons other than daggers.
Plus, Dualistic is an effect in alpha. It has problems. If we had access to it, you'd have a much better case comparing the alpha version of the dagger of doubling to this version of Dualistic.
Sorry, my previous post was unnecessarily hostile. My team at work got shafted once again, and that is insanely frustrating.
The first rule of magic item pricing is to compare to other items / enhancements of a similar power level. The closest other enhancement there is is Speed, which gives an extra attack at a +4 equivalence. It's still seen as a good enhancement tho. For an equal enhancement equivalent item, this enhancement comes out at a +1 to hit over the speed, and potentially allows 2 additional hits. Since this enhancement will be used by those people most likely to be focusing heavily into TWF, we can assume that the gap between two-handed weaponry's 1.5x Str damage will be closed quite a bit.
By pricing it at a +2, the enhancement becomes a wash when compared to Speed, at least until we start getting into >+6 enhancements, where the benefit of Dualistic increases a lot more than a speed weapon. Partially because the fundamentals of the game state that attack bonuses will be outpacing AC-based defensive capabilities by the level of >+6 enhancements availability, meaning you're going to get a lot more benefits from those iteratives that Dualistic allows.
That, and that TWFing in PF is in a pretty decent spot, thanks to the ability to use the various critical feats to inflict nasty conditions.
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I don't think you can fairly price the property off the number of attacks you get from two weapon fighting because none of those attacks are coming from the weapon property, those are your iteratives from base attack and feat investment.
The only thing this is really giving you in the long run is a relative reduction in the cost of two weapon fighting that increases over time. It does nothing but hurt you before a certain relative enhancement bonus.
I don't know what would make the best price point for this kind of effect, but I think +4 makes it effectively meaningless and even +2 makes this a tough pill because you end up being behind the other front liners by that much more.... Its a tough one.
I don't know what would make the best price point for this kind of effect, but I think +4 makes it effectively meaningless and even +2 makes this a tough pill because you end up being behind the other front liners by that much more.... Its a tough one.
This is honestly why I originally set it as a +1. It's kinda a strong +1 but it's a really wretchedly weak +2, y'know? As a '+' enhancement its cost already scales relative to the strength of the weapon too, which helps keep things in check.
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The easiest way to do it so that it would be balanced with current options (rather than scaling from extremely weak to hideously overpowered depending on the remaining enhancement bonus of the weapon) is to make the ability cost a flat cost equal to the cost of a +X weapon and then generate a +X weapon.
So for example, +50000 to generate a +5 weapon. If you later upgrade the main weapon to a +6 equivalent, you could also increase the amount you paid for Dualistic accordingly to upgrade the split weapon as well.
Nope. I can't imagine anybody actually using the ability at that price Rogue Eidolon. Take a look at the Dagger of Doubling Cheapy linked above.
+1 is probably ideal actually. It robs you of a +1 that you would otherwise have at the same price point, but provides an equally enhanced weapon for the opposite hand.
I guess my trouble is I sometimes get linked here from other places, so I keep forgetting the goal of this project.
Is it to bring in something that is relatively balanced with the core line so that GMs can insert this material in their games without seeing ridiculous power creep, or is it to fix presumed holes in the game system by releasing a book full of options so overbalanced compared to the core that everyone in a game where they are available is either forced to use them or to be terrible in comparison and look like a complete loser.
If the latter, then dualistic is fine as a +1 enhancement. Heck, make it cost a small flat amount, like +2000. Or free. Or whatever you want. You could pretty much release anything as long as it was all balanced internally with itself and noticably stronger than anything possible in the core line, since then that would be the goal.
If the former is the goal, however, then it needs to cost something different than a +1 or a +2 or a +Anything. Prince isn't wrong when he says that for most weapon enhancement levels, having Dualistic cost +2 costs more than just buying two weapons instead, but having it cost even +2 creates a large band of weapon enhancement levels where it is a terrible choice and then a small band where it is OP. +1 increases the band where it is OP to more than half of all possible total enhancement bonuses. A flat cost based on the total effective enhancement bonus of the weapon spawned allows you to avoid the levels where it is too weak and the levels where it is too strong and find something that is just right.
If the former is the goal, then there's just no way that you can look at something that costs precisely the same as it currently costs to get two weapons and say "I can't imagine anybody actually using the ability at that price" because that's precisely the price that everyone has always been paying to have two +X weapons.
Think of it this way Rogue Eidolon. Under normal PF circumstances, a two-hander needs only enhance a single weapon. So for 50,000 he gets a +5 weapon that penetrates a ton of DR and gives him +1 to hit and damage every time he swings. A two-weapon Fighter with this weapon enhancement either only gets +4 to hit and damage on his weapon for the same price, or he has to pay 22,000 gold more than the Two-Hander does for the same result.
Yes he gets to apply the bonus more often, but it's also working against a -2 penalty to hit, AND the fact that in order to actually use these two weapons, one is burning several feats. (Generally at least Two Weapon Fighting and Double Slice.) Lets not forget that a TWF is MAD for Dex as well, unless he went finesse style and put Agile on the weapon, which is now +3 compared to +5, or costs 98,000 compared to 50,000 to have the same bonus.
So you are agreeing it's the latter then. That you are looking for a Path of War that will be such a huge boost to the styles of your choice (in this case TWF) that anyone trying to play them without using the Path of War stuff is going to be a loser by comparison. That is a valid and fair perspective and goal, and if that's the case, while I can give you many many examples to counter the point you made (to just start with a simple one, damage boosters like Holy are twice as effective for a TWFer as they are for a two-hander, and with on-hit debuffs, there's a lot more to it than the simplistic view of damage only), they don't matter and wouldn't be productive, since the goal of the project doesn't mesh with my playtest advice. If that's the case, don't even make it a +1 because then you have it being weak at low levels only to become more and more ridiculous as levels increase. Instead, I recommend just making it free or a very small flat cost so it can be more powerful than core by the desired amount at all levels, instead of ramping up at high levels and taking the GM by surprise.
Ahem. Y'know, Kyrt's a playtester too, Eidolon, just offering his (or her, or possibly Their Serene Highness's) opinion. If you wanna know about goals, you may wanna ask, y'know, the developers.
Handily, I am here!
Not gonna lie, the three items presented here are meant, in part, to address common melee problems. The first, the slime, deals with fliers in a pro-active fashion (as opposed to the more passive and investment-heavy method of Learning to Fly Yourownself - which is also the more useful method, but hey). The bracers, once we find their balance point, are to help thrown attackers to not have to sink huge amounts of their wealth into their style.
Dualistic is similar. It's meant to make TWF more accessibly viable. It does not address a lot of TWF's problems, though - MAD, feat chains, conflicts with mobility, you name it. The only thing it's meant to address is the quite-literally-doubled monetary investment in going for two-weapon fighting. There's still an advantage in having two different weapons, even!
TWF looks a lot better on first blush than it ends up being, mostly due to its total reliance on full attacks. Dualistic won't fix that, for anyone. What it does do is free up some wealth for the TWFer to try and solve that for themselves. Does that make sense to ya? No, honestly - it's late at night here and I'm worried that I'm not expressing myself properly because I'm tired.
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TWF looks a lot better on first blush than it ends up being, mostly due to its total reliance on full attacks. Dualistic won't fix that, for anyone. What it does do is free up some wealth for the TWFer to try and solve that for themselves. Does that make sense to ya? No, honestly - it's late at night here and I'm worried that I'm not expressing myself properly because I'm tired.
No, you're making good sense, and it's as I suspected. Then it is clear that the goal is, even beyond the new classes, to also offer options that are so fundamentally superior to the core options that anyone who uses the core options to do the same thing will be comparatively terrible. In that case, much as Cheapy is my buddy, I suggest that you ignore him. He is trying to suggest a way to create something that is balanced with the way PFRPG works right now, but you are looking to improve (I'll use the word improve, even if not everyone agrees that it's an improvement, as that is the goal) upon some pretty fundamental aspects of the game by intentionally building massive creep. His advice isn't helpful to you in that regard, and neither would be mine. Anyway, I wish you best of luck in that venture--I love different kinds of modifications and rules and tinkerings with the way things work. The only suggestion I give is that you put a disclaimer foreword or little box in the product in general, something like:
"GMs--unlike in other Dreamscarred Press products, this special product is intended to enhance your game by providing powerful new options for areas of the games that are simply more potent than anything your players currently have. This is because we considered to be too weak as they stand. Please note that your players who use these options will blow the players who don't use them and build characters in the same niche out of the water, so if you're going to include these options, you should recommend to all your players to use them, and be sure to familiarize yourself with them enough to recommend them to your players.
Players--Because of the particular goals of this product, the items and abilities found within may be considered substantially too powerful by a GM who is happy with the power level of these aspects as it is. Please make sure to show this to the GM and that you and the GM are on the same page as we are about these areas of the game needing a boost before pressuring your GM to include this material."
Because Prince, I've seen your posts and I know you know the game well. And I've seen my own posts, and I know I know the game well. We both know the game quite well enough that if this product came out and we weren't familiar with it but a player wanted to include pieces of it into our games, we would be swiftly and easily able to assess whether it was something we wanted in our games (you would assess yes, and I would assess no for my current campaign at least and maybe yes for a future one, but both would do so using data and experience).
But many of the GMs who buy from Dreamscarred Press or tell players things like "you can use anything written by Paizo or Dreamscarred Press" do so from Dreamscarred's sterling reputation from their work on Psionics of putting out material balanced with the core that GMs can feel comfortable to use in their games without really looking at it with as careful an eye toward balance. And some of those GMs aren't as fast as you or I are, or as capable of making all those analyses. Of those GMs who allowed carte blanche DSP products, if any of them at all do not want the power level pushed, then they might feel burned when they later find out that it was, as it hadn't been by previous DSP products. The foreword disclaimer serves as another chance to help these GMs out (and that way, if such a GM complains about a Path of War ability that their player sneaked into their game without talking to them about the power jump, you guys can point to the foreword that asked the player to have a frank talk with them first).
In essence, some of this suggestion is only really even relevant due to the fact that this product was published by Dreamscarred Press, which has earned a previous reputation for tight balance not pushing the power level (and so I know several GMs of the sort I described who allow DSP stuff without vetting it). If this had been published by a new imprint made by you and ErrantX, my advice would be different because consumers would have a different assumption (as I said before, I love tinkering with the rules and changing the power assumptions--I wrote a new base class on the power level of a gestalt for every gestalt combination with 3.5's core classes).
1) I'm happy to see I'm not the only one with sticker shock with the new items. I honestly was starting to think it was just me being way too conservative... And I'm not known to be the conservative one at our table, so I was thinking I'd started to lose it.
2) With the new stalker archtype, soul hunter, I have a question. Is the intent that stalker be able to juggle the majority of their readied maneuvers (as Wis will be a priority) every round as a swift action? I didn't see any sort of limitations besides claiming a target that the soul hunter has damaged (no time limit) and dropping the claim is a free action. It doesn't mention anything about targeting or duration (so you could possibly claim something you fought earlier in the day) and you can just juggle the claim on the same target you are fighting on your turn. Also, I would almost say it should be an immediate action as you can use it on an AoO too.
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So, If people who do not use the material are at a huge disadvantage, why does that matter? I mean, if you don't like or don't use a particular book and, as a consequence, your character will be weaker than another character that will literally never interact... why is this even a problem?
I realize that we may differ on what we consider game breaking, but I am not certain why a weapon property that makes fighting with two weapons more economical as beyond the pale and requiring of a dissertation on the follies of post core balancing.
So, with that said - it seems as if Dualistic is proving to be the biggest contender for discussion here, am I right? What if the copy had 1 point of less Enhancement bonus than the original. Would that help?
What I've seen a lot of other books for such an enhancement is that every enhancement gets divided between the weapon it creates.
A +2 dualistic longsword would become 2 +1 [dualistic] longswords; a +2 flaming frost dualistic longsword would become a +1 flaming [dualistic] longsword and a +1 frost [dualistic] longsword.
Furthermore, just add that only the wielder of the original weapon can wield the weapon's copy.
So, If people who do not use the material are at a huge disadvantage, why does that matter? I mean, if you don't like or don't use a particular book and, as a consequence, your character will be weaker than another character that will literally never interact... why is this even a problem?
I realize that we may differ on what we consider game breaking, but I am not certain why a weapon property that makes fighting with two weapons more economical as beyond the pale and requiring of a dissertation on the follies of post core balancing.
Because you certainly might interact. In fact you might even be in the same party. Imagine a GM who allows all Paizo and DSP material carte blanche. There is an established TWF character in the game, and a new player comes in, so the GM says "Just equip yourself with 400,000 gp worth of items and pick anything from Paizo or DSP". And the new player makes a TWF character who spends 200,000 on a +9 dualistic weapon (getting two +9 equivalent weapons) while the existing character didn't go digging through all the products and is walking around with two +7 equivalent weapons for essentially the same price. As you can see by how vehemently people are defending against an increase in the +-equivalence, even a single +1 difference is large, and a +2 for both weapons is massive.