Dreamscarred Press introduces the Path of War


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Orthos wrote:

For some reason I thought you meant "you get a penalty of some sort to the ones you didn't pick, if you spend a feat/multiclass/otherwise get access to them". Not "you get them anyway, but at reduced effectiveness".

I'm not sure how I feel about that, in that case. I'll think about it and hopefully have more to say when I get home (and hopefully my headache has passed by then).

I probably wasn't the most clear, but yea, basically it'd allow you to have access to all the disciplines as opposed to having only a handful of them.

But you'd suck at one or two of them.


Prince of Knives wrote:
ErrantX wrote:
Orthos wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
If I saw Devil Tiger AND Thrashing Dragon I'd start looking for Bone Flowers, Thousand Whispers and Resplendant Cranes.

Bone Flower and Thousand Whispers actually sounds pretty cool to me.

Otherwise, is this a reference I'm not catching?

It was a completely unintentional symmetry that accidentally came about when I was drafting the disciplines initially. I had a Devil Tiger (now Primal Fury) and Thrashing Dragon. There is a White Wolf product that uses those names as well for something completely unrelated and Asian-themed. To tone down the weeaboo aspect, we changed Devil Tiger and left Thrashing Dragon because, well, it had nothing to do with the White Wolf product and Dragons are iconic to this game. Bone Flowers and Thousand Whispers comes from that game too (Kindred of the East).

-X

Ah yes, the "Too Celtic Mythology" complaints. Sigh.

... okay now I'm curious. I've heard "too Asian" a whole lot, but this is the first time I've heard "too Celtic". Celtic's usually right up the alley of the "medieval European" style of sword-and-sorcery that seems to get the majority of attention in D&D/Pathfinder, especially if you're talking Fey.


He's being sarcastic. Paizo forums don't let us change the color of text here to blue to denote sarcasm.

-X

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ErrantX wrote:


Stalker: Veiled Moon and Steel Serpent. Pick two from: Solar Wind, Broken Blade, Thrashing Dragon, and Primal Fury.

Warder: Iron Tortoise and Broken Blade. Pick one from: Golden Lion, Primal Fury, and Solar Wind.

Warlord: Scarlet Throne and Golden Lion. Pick one from: Primal Fury, Thrashing Dragon, and Solar Wind.

Chris, why does the Warlord and Warder only get to pick 1? I'm not a fan of that. It pigeon holes me too much. I can't make a sword and board TWF Primal Fury and Thrashing Dragon Warlord anymore. Boo.


YuenglingDragon wrote:
ErrantX wrote:


Stalker: Veiled Moon and Steel Serpent. Pick two from: Solar Wind, Broken Blade, Thrashing Dragon, and Primal Fury.

Warder: Iron Tortoise and Broken Blade. Pick one from: Golden Lion, Primal Fury, and Solar Wind.

Warlord: Scarlet Throne and Golden Lion. Pick one from: Primal Fury, Thrashing Dragon, and Solar Wind.

Chris, why does the Warlord and Warder only get to pick 1? I'm not a fan of that. It pigeon holes me too much. I can't make a sword and board TWF Primal Fury and Thrashing Dragon Warlord anymore. Boo.

No particular reason, this is just me throwing this out there. Absolutely nothing is set in stone, I'm just gauging interest and opinion.

-X


Maybe more of a "Pick X from this pool"? So you could have any combination of the ones you want, rather than having some set for you automatically.


ErrantX wrote:

He's being sarcastic. Paizo forums don't let us change the color of text here to blue to denote sarcasm.

-X

Yea it does. Use the ooc tag :-)

see?


ErrantX wrote:

He's being sarcastic. Paizo forums don't let us change the color of text here to blue to denote sarcasm.

-X

Heh, well you could always use the OOC tags.

I was not aware that blue is the default color for sarcasm, though, so I wouldn't have caught that anyway. I generally rely on [/sarc] myself.


Ahh, well, as it's been said before, Knives and I come a land far, far away where the grognards of 3.5 dwell. We are unused to this land. ;)

There's an entire color code system there for emotion. Don't ask me what 'puce' is. I'm not telling.

-X


*snerk*


Would you call yourself a "grognard of 3.5" (as you put it), Chris?


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I wasn't being sarcastic. I was being exasperated.

Didja know the the greatest hero of Celtic mythology is a sexy bishounen with a rainbow laser sword that cuts the top off of mountains, transforms into demons, is related to dogs (no, really) and has a sapient spear addicted to opium? That their heroes leap absurd distances, get so angry you have to drown them to 'cool them off', and have absurd named attacks & weapons?

That's Celts, mind you. Celts. Y'know, the people who paint themselves blue and fight naked while they scream out bone-chilling battle cries? Those guys?

So every time I hear someone complaining that ToB was Too Asian or Weeaboo Fightan Majeek, I correct it to 'Too Celtic Mythology'. Because it is.


Ahahahahahahah. Man I'm more than familiar with Cuchulain, but I have never seen it put that way before. That's hilarious.


Cheapy wrote:
Would you call yourself a "grognard of 3.5" (as you put it), Chris?

That's a loaded question.

-X


ErrantX wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Would you call yourself a "grognard of 3.5" (as you put it), Chris?

That's a loaded question.

-X

Suppose so!

Going with Prince's quick tangent into celtic mythology, it'd be pretty nifty if one of these classes had an archetype for getting your power from fey. Lots of fun to be had there!


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Cheapy wrote:
Going with Prince's quick tangent into celtic mythology, it'd be pretty nifty if one of these classes had an archetype for getting your power from fey. Lots of fun to be had there!

I do have something fey-ish (legendary fey, not 3.PF's abominations - both companies dropped the ball in the most insulting way possible) planned for the Harbinger in the form of the Ravenlord archetype.


You keep saying these things that get my attention and demand further explanation.


Sorry, been elsewhere while this thread exploded today. I too am kind of uncomfortable about the "two swifts per round" feat.

I'd suggest instead going the traditional route and starting with a "once per day you may make a second swift action in a round when you have already... blah blah blah". Let someone take it more than once and each time you're allowed one more daily. Then you can frankly reduce the feat tax somewhat, making it available to a more diverse range of builds without being open to regular and relentless abuse.

You may also consider verbiage that prevents the use of the second swift action to change any choices or options that have already been changed in the same round. That keeps someone from flipping stances mid-round or an inquisitor from changing the bonus from their judgment twice in the same round.


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Orthos wrote:
You keep saying these things that get my attention and demand further explanation.

The "WotC and Paizo fail at fey forever" part or the Ravenlord part?

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Prince of Knives wrote:
Orthos wrote:
You keep saying these things that get my attention and demand further explanation.
The "WotC and Paizo fail at fey forever" part or the Ravenlord part?

What exactly is wrong with the Paizo Fey if you dont mind me asking? Speaking for myself I find most of them quite entertaining especially the Atomies.


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Kevin Mack wrote:
Prince of Knives wrote:
Orthos wrote:
You keep saying these things that get my attention and demand further explanation.
The "WotC and Paizo fail at fey forever" part or the Ravenlord part?
What exactly is wrong with the Paizo Fey if you dont mind me asking? Speaking for myself I find most of them quite entertaining especially the Atomies.

Fey tangent!

Atomie Knight:
The PCs in my Jade Regent game came across an Atomie "knight". Knowing their general reputation for bluster and overestimating themselves, they put the Ulfen Viking Fighter up against the diminutive fey in a duel...and the Atomie won (she had some class levels and an agile weapon). There was much amusement in the caravan after that, but not in front of the Ulfen's face!


Cheapy wrote:
Quote:

Stalker: Veiled Moon and Steel Serpent. Pick two from: Solar Wind, Broken Blade, Thrashing Dragon, and Primal Fury.

Warder: Iron Tortoise and Broken Blade. Pick one from: Golden Lion, Primal Fury, and Solar Wind.

Warlord: Scarlet Throne and Golden Lion. Pick one from: Primal Fury, Thrashing Dragon, and Solar Wind.

The disciplines you did not pick <are at some disadvantage, but not off limits>

The maneuvers from the disciplines you did not pick are all considered one (or two?) levels higher? Something like that might work.


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I appreciate it was probably a conscious decision on the developer's part, but I was really hoping that a true port of the ToB Crusader would make its way into the mix with the Warder. Specifically, healing through glorious, righteous combat. That to me has always been the holy grail of my personal dream character: tough, badass melee who was an endless warmachine battery of combat through self-healing attacks, if audacious enough. I'm a little sad to see no similar style of maneuvers for the Warder, though it is already a strong class.


Kevin Mack wrote:
Prince of Knives wrote:
Orthos wrote:
You keep saying these things that get my attention and demand further explanation.
The "WotC and Paizo fail at fey forever" part or the Ravenlord part?
What exactly is wrong with the Paizo Fey if you dont mind me asking? Speaking for myself I find most of them quite entertaining especially the Atomies.

This. Granted I admittedly like to Dresden my fey up a bit, and put some more scramble in their alignments, but I haven't ever seen an issue with the ones provided. (I'm not a big fan of The Eldest though, admittedly. I prefer the more traditional Summer and Winter Courts lineup. Again, lots of inspiration from Dresden Files.)

Haven't gotten around to using Atomies though. Need to put that on my to-do list for Kingmaker. Atomie initiators!


Okay, so the first varient didn't get much traction. How about this, instead of making a class have two swifts, we create a feat that converts one specified swift action ability(again, not magic) to be used as a free action once per round.

This is analogous with the feat that improves style feat action economy in some ways.

You could call it speed of thought


Corumgoth wrote:
I appreciate it was probably a conscious decision on the developer's part, but I was really hoping that a true port of the ToB Crusader would make its way into the mix with the Warder. Specifically, healing through glorious, righteous combat. That to me has always been the holy grail of my personal dream character: tough, badass melee who was an endless warmachine battery of combat through self-healing attacks, if audacious enough. I'm a little sad to see no similar style of maneuvers for the Warder, though it is already a strong class.

The Empyreal Guardians martial tradition offers the discipline known as Silver Crane, which fits that bill nicely. You could be any flavor of initiator and join them, adhere to their code of conduct, and get access to Silver Crane.

-X


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Orthos wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Prince of Knives wrote:
Orthos wrote:
You keep saying these things that get my attention and demand further explanation.
The "WotC and Paizo fail at fey forever" part or the Ravenlord part?
What exactly is wrong with the Paizo Fey if you dont mind me asking? Speaking for myself I find most of them quite entertaining especially the Atomies.
This. Granted I admittedly like to Dresden my fey up a bit, and put some more scramble in their alignments, but I haven't ever seen an issue with the ones provided. (I'm not a big fan of The Eldest though, admittedly. I prefer the more traditional Summer and Winter Courts lineup. Again, lots of inspiration from Dresden Files.)

The thing is...

The thing is that every culture has beings that you could call fey, or faeries, or Fair Folk. They are not human, even when they look that way. They follow strange laws and inflict hideous punishments on those who will not play by their arcane rules. You must not witness the weddings of the Kitsune. You must not walk alone at night, or the Bag Man will get you.

They do what they want, when they want to do it, and only their strange oaths and promises will stop them. There are things that they know that are not the things that humanity know. They see into the future the way we look into the past, and slip in and out of time with immortal carelessness. Their pranks destroy lives, and their gifts draw heartsblood, ruining forever those that receive them. Concepts like 'right' and 'wrong' are alien to them, and they recognize only 'must' and 'must not'.

Somewhere in Australia is a strange little man who will eat you, and throw you up, and eat you over and over again until you become like him. Somewhere in the Pacific is the Tikbalang, there to lead you astray with his sorceries. Somewhere in Scotland there is a beautiful woman who will not approach you if you ride horseback, for the iron in the horse's shoes is proof against her vampiric appetite. Somewhere there is a thing that is not human enough, and it has noticed you, and it wants to play.

And then we get into 3.PF and their 'nature spirits' garbage.

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Prince of Knives wrote:
And then we get into 3.PF and their 'nature spirits' garbage.

Well one mans garbage is another mans treasure so they say but this is hardly the thread for a discusion about it shall we agree to disagree?


Kevin Mack wrote:
Prince of Knives wrote:
And then we get into 3.PF and their 'nature spirits' garbage.
Well one mans garbage is another mans treasure so they say but this is hardly the thread for a discusion about it shall we agree to disagree?

Or you could sling me a PM, I'm always up to debate. Frankly I don't really blame Paizo specifically for this - WotC screwed it up and then Paizo inherited the type definition in the spirit of backwards-compatibility.


Heh, amusingly enough I agree with you in most of that rant. I haven't had issue with the provided fey content because I'm not averse to rewriting or reflavoring it as needed. The provided mechanics do the job, the GM's job is to turn the rest on its head.

So yeah, with you on that 100%. And admittedly, Paizo's done a bit better with the introduction of some weird, freaky, and/or just-plain-wrong fey that weren't around in 3.5.

But yeah, enough of that particular tangent =)


So to get back on the topic of... the topic, if there a link somewhere to all these organizations that are getting mentioned? Because I'm not finding them in the individual PDFs.


Cavian wrote:
So to get back on the topic of... the topic, if there a link somewhere to all these organizations that are getting mentioned? Because I'm not finding them in the individual PDFs.

Keep in mind that everything - but especially the intro - is still being subject to change. I'm still getting the hang of this 'professional tone' thing and there's some accidental pot-shots.

That in mind, here's the Empyreal Guardians, Black Thorn Knights, and Scarlet Sentinels and here's the Quills.


A teaser from the items section:

Endeca’s Gregarious Gravity Slime (Wondrous Item)

Aura: Weak transmutation; CL 5th

Slot: N/A; Price: 750 GP (one container may contain up to three slimes)

This small, light-blue slime is usually kept in a bottle or bucket with an easy-to-open lid, and quivers and coos pleasantly whenever it is touched or fed (it does not seem to require food to survive, though it does enjoy it). Though the Gregarious Gravity Slime sees some popularity as a hard-to-kill pet for the children of the rich, its primary purpose is for combat. The slime may be applied to a weapon or piece of ammunition as a swift action; the next time that weapon strikes a creature, that creature must succeed at a Fortitude save against DC (10 + ½ the user’s level + the user’s Strength modifier) or lose all ability to fly as the clinging slime drags them to the ground. Victims lose all ability to fly; they have no flight speed, are treated as having no ranks in the Fly skill, and cannot hover, leap or levitate any higher than ten feet from the ground. If the victim so affected is already flying when they are affected the slime cushions their fall and they suffer no damage. The effects of Endeca’s Gregarious Gravity Slime last until the end of the encounter, at which point the slime dissolves with a contented sigh.

Creation Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item; 375 GP, Flightbreaker

Flightbreaker (Transmutation)
Level: Alchemist 3, Inquisitor 3, Magus 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 3, Summoner 3, Witch 3
Casting Time: 1 Standard action
Components: V, S, F (a small stone)
Range: Long (400 feet + 40 feet/level)
Target: 1 creature
Duration: 1 Min./Level
Saving Throw: Fort negates; Spell Resistance: Yes

The victim of this spell is subject to a powerful personal gravitational effect. If the subject fails her saving throw, she is rendered incapable of flying for the duration; she loses any and all fly speeds she possesses, is treated as having no ranks in the Fly skill, and cannot hover, leap, or levitate higher than ten feet from the ground. If the victim is flying when she is affected by this spell she falls to the ground slowly and takes no falling damage.

I'm in the market for new names for Flightbreaker.


Prince of Knives wrote:
Cavian wrote:
So to get back on the topic of... the topic, if there a link somewhere to all these organizations that are getting mentioned? Because I'm not finding them in the individual PDFs.

Keep in mind that everything - but especially the intro - is still being subject to change. I'm still getting the hang of this 'professional tone' thing and there's some accidental pot-shots.

That in mind, here's the Empyreal Guardians, Black Thorn Knights, and Scarlet Sentinels and here's the Quills.

Okay, given it an initial read over, I love the flavor of the Black Thorn Knights, very Judge Dredd vibe to them.


Prince of Knives wrote:

A teaser from the items section:

Endeca’s Gregarious Gravity Slime (Wondrous Item)

Aura: Weak transmutation; CL 5th

Slot: N/A; Price: 750 GP (one container may contain up to three slimes)

This small, light-blue slime is usually kept in a bottle or bucket with an easy-to-open lid, and quivers and coos pleasantly whenever it is touched or fed (it does not seem to require food to survive, though it does enjoy it). Though the Gregarious Gravity Slime sees some popularity as a hard-to-kill pet for the children of the rich, its primary purpose is for combat. The slime may be applied to a weapon or piece of ammunition as a swift action; the next time that weapon strikes a creature, that creature must succeed at a Fortitude save against DC (10 + ½ the user’s level + the user’s Strength modifier) or lose all ability to fly as the clinging slime drags them to the ground. Victims lose all ability to fly; they have no flight speed, are treated as having no ranks in the Fly skill, and cannot hover, leap or levitate any higher than ten feet from the ground. If the victim so affected is already flying when they are affected the slime cushions their fall and they suffer no damage. The effects of Endeca’s Gregarious Gravity Slime last until the end of the encounter, at which point the slime dissolves with a contented sigh.

Creation Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item; 375 GP, Flightbreaker

Flightbreaker (Transmutation)
Level: Alchemist 3, Inquisitor 3, Magus 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 3, Summoner 3, Witch 3
Casting Time: 1 Standard action
Components: V, S, F (a small stone)
Range: Long (400 feet + 40 feet/level)
Target: 1 creature
Duration: 1 Min./Level
Saving Throw: Fort negates; Spell Resistance: Yes

The victim of this spell is subject to a powerful personal gravitational effect. If the subject fails her saving throw, she is rendered incapable of flying for the duration; she loses any and all fly speeds...

1) I have no issue with the spell but the item should be reworked. Wonderous items typically have a set DC, not scaling. About the only magical item that doesn't have a to have a set DC are staves (though I think there is a class ability that allows you to do something similar with wands). Basically you are breaking one of the balancing factors of magical items, you pay for better DCs. I would be *very* wary of doing so.

2) My character would never use this item in combat, it is too cute lol.


Skylancer, I shopped your thoughts at the GitP thread to see what they make of your reasoning. Not that I don't trust your feedback or anything! It's just that you're the first to bring it up and I want to make sure that they noticed and what they think if they did/now that they do.


By all means do so, but go through the Ultimate Equipment guide and try to find items that scale to the users HD. You aren't going to find many (if any at all). Part of the reason is, when crafting a magic item you are setting the DC off the spells level (and the minimum attribute needed to cast that spell), crafting guidelines are based off that for price points. Past lower levels, no one would ever buy a wand of this spell when they could buy a handful of single use items which will be significantly more effective when needed. And unlike other items made using the established crafting guidelines, these stay relevent as long as you have them (because their DC goes up as you get higher level/stats). Even alchemical items have set DCs as a rule.

Essentially you are handing out one use SLAs, not magic items. That is tripping my "alarms" from a design perspective. Couple that with PoW being under scrutiny by virtue of what it is, I'd rather you know the precendent you're setting and be aware that this is probably one of the things people would point out saying it is "OP" or "power creep" and challenge the integrity of the project as a whole with.

With all that being said, I've always loved DSP as a company and have been buying their stuff since I've run into it way back when, and encourage others to do so. I'm happy they are doing PoW and know you guys will have my support (and more importantly my money). I'm happy they are doing the incarna too for that matter.

Basically, I know you all have your hands full and there is a fine line between doing something "new" or "different" and crossing the line into "breaking" the rules. Just wanted to throw that warning flag out there for you.


Wondrous items that have a static DC are generally really awful, unfortunately. They're always too expensive to be useful at the level where their save DC is relevant in combat. Gravity Slime is a bit too powerful, though.

It scales better and is more effective than the spell, since it scales with both your character level and your Strength, meaning that it goes from DC 10+Str to DC 20+Str, compared to the spell which is always DC 13+Ability. Effectively, it's heightened based on your character level, and breaks the 9 level cap. Scaling only based on Strength is also awkward, since it can be fired from a ranged weapon... in which case it's still Strength based. Something like DC 13 + 1/2 Character Level would be a bit more appropriate, since it doesn't matter what your primary ability score is, and it still ends up a little weaker than if it were activated by, for example, a Strength focused martial (who will generally end up with around a +12 modifier).

Also, you should probably either give it a shorter duration than flightbreaker or define it as a spell-like effect, since as is it can't be dispelled and lasts for an indeterminate amount of time (there are no rules for an "encounter" ending and the logical conclusion is based on a metagame concept rather than an in-game unit of time).


I believe they've mentioned they will be putting in a sidebar for further defining "encounter" durations (on the DSP forums if I remember correctly).

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Prince of Knives wrote:
I'm in the market for new names for Flightbreaker.

Don't you dare.

Flightbreaker is an awesome name.


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Skylancer4 wrote:
I believe they've mentioned they will be putting in a sidebar for further defining "encounter" durations (on the DSP forums if I remember correctly).

I'm not sure if defining 'encounters' is needed. You can full round regain maneuvers so any time where you take a minute to do nothing you can basically recharge all your maneuvers. Just having the ideas that these are encounter abilities seems silly when there is already a quantifiable amount of time you can do it without the term 'encounter' even coming up.


Alright folks, update on the 'items' end of things - edits to the slime will be incoming, based on feedback both from here and from GitP. The next time you see it, it'll be part of a general 'items' release along with Wraithslayer Dust, twinned weapons, and the multiplicative bracers.


Prince of Knives wrote:
Alright folks, update on the 'items' end of things - edits to the slime will be incoming, based on feedback both from here and from GitP. The next time you see it, it'll be part of a general 'items' release along with wraithslayer dust, twinned weapons, and the multiplicative bracers.


Twinned weapons? Multiplicative bracers?

TWINNED WEAPONS?

You have my attention, good sir. And if its anything like what I think is, you have my money. All of it.


In other news, items are here.

These are sorta...rough drafts, mind you. Please, if you catch something, let me know. Formatting, wording, anything.


Alright, first impressions:

Initially, I want to say that multiplicative bracers needed some limitation, but the more I think about, the more I think it's fine as-is. If anything were to change, I'd say that maybe the weapon to be thrown/ammunition to be launched should be masterwork. Maybe.

As for twinned, I'd make it a straight +GP enhancement (probably 9-10K, maybe up to 15-20K) instead of a +1 equivalent. Aside from that, all I can think of is possibly allowing it to straight duplicate a one-handed weapon (feats and some archtype abilities can reduce oversized TWF penalties to viable levels).


I want to preface this with "I honestly have no problem with mundane classes/martial classes getting nice things" because it may not sound that way when I'm done.

1) The slime is still woefully underpriced for what it does. It is essentially an auto pinned condition vs flying with a scaling DC. You have it limiting jumps past 10' which means you are even influencing the acrobatic skill on top of removing the fly skill from the board.

This is hands down better than the majority of items that would do the same thing (wands, wonderous items that refer to "Flightbreaker" or whatever name you end up using).

To put it in perspective, a wand of Flightbreaker (3rd level spell IIRC) would cost 11,250 gp (half to craft) and only ever have a DC of 14 (10 base + 3 spell level +1 minimum Int mod to cast 3rd level spells). And it would last 5 rounds (assuming spell duration of rounds/level).

A wonderous item of Flightbreaker (Command word, 2xday) would cost 10,800 gp (half to craft). Breakdown being, ([3rd level spell x 5th level caster x 1,800gp]/[5/ 2 uses a day]). The item would still only ever have a DC of 14 and would last 5 rounds (assuming that the spell is rounds/level).

Compare either of those to the slime at 2nd level for 500 gp. It is significantly underpriced using the guidelines for magic items (which I'm not saying is exactly what it should cost, but it gives us a ballpark for what to expect). On top of getting significantly better as you level, because the item DC is scaling up every 2 levels when all other items are static.

I think you are applying the maneuver type DC to magic items which in my opinion shouldn't be done. That isn't what the rule set expects for magic items in the game. What you are stating up isn't a magic item, you are stating up a permanent spell like ability essentially (scaling DC, uses per day). And spell like abilities aren't something the game really allows to be bought and sold, they are usually gained through levels of a class or a template. You are opening the door to cherry picking spells which would be really good when the DCs are actually higher (but don't get used much because the cost to get the DC that high is prohibitive using the existing item creation rules) and putting them into item form, really really cheap item form.

I think because you are working on the PoW rules you have the constant maneuver DCs as your base line, and that is causing a disconnect with your item. If you are going to make a magic item, follow those conventions for the rule set. If you are trying to make an item that uses the maneuver rules, go ahead and use it BUT you need to sit down and seriously think about what it should cost to have an item that gives you access to maneuvers and what that does to the game (IE caster types gaining access to them through items that they can craft on the cheap). The old 3.5 convention was a feat in item form was roughly 10,000 gp.

2)Multiplicative Bracers are again really really really really (I'd type more but I think you get the idea) cheap. "Oh look, I bought this 2,000 gp item and now ALL 20 of my daggers are +5 keen returning XYZ'ing daggers." I get what you are trying to do, liberate people from the golf bag of items for certain builds who are unduly oppressed by the WBL. But look at what else you are doing. Archery/ranged combat is sometimes considered too good partly because they can sink money into the main weapon, and buy differing ammunition as needed for utility. If you are trying to remove the rather small cost of utility ammunition from the game (all you need is 1 of each type you could possibly need), this does it. The first two times you fire a +5 arrow, this item just paid for itself. Entirely too good for the price.

Things to compare that already exist:
Endless Ammunition
Abundant Ammunition

3)Twinned. A +1 enhancement that gives me up to a +9 weapon for free forever? SOLD! Entirely too good for the price.

Things to compare to:
Dagger of Doubling
3.5 had a Splitting property for ranged weapons that was considered underpriced at +3 (not necessarily a direct comparison but something to look into).

4)Wraithslayer Dust. As a burst effect, it should probably have a save. If it only influenced one weapon I could almost (...almost) see it at the price you have listed and even then my instincts are saying it's on the cheap side. As an area of effect that makes any and all targets in the area take the effect... So everyone else in your party can hit it without investing anything at all... With no save... Entirely too good for the price.

Incorporeal creatures can be nasty, but without that ability, they are usually pretty much push overs. 100 gp to negate an entire encounter? Sign me up. People talk about Save or Die, or Save or Suck spells. This is an item that doesn't even allow a save, it just makes things suck for the targeted creature(s).


I'll be addressing the rest of this in a bit. However:

Quote:

4)Wraithslayer Dust. As a burst effect, it should probably have a save. If it only influenced one weapon I could almost (...almost) see it at the price you have listed and even then my instincts are saying it's on the cheap side. As an area of effect that makes any and all targets in the area take the effect... So everyone else in your party can hit it without investing anything at all... With no save... Entirely too good for the price.

Incorporeal creatures can be nasty, but without that ability, they are usually pretty much push overs. 100 gp to negate an entire encounter? Sign me up. People talk about Save or Die, or Save or Suck spells. This is an item that doesn't even allow a save, it just makes things suck for the targeted creature(s).

What CR are, say, allips? How about shadows? Wraiths? These classic enemies have presented difficulties since back in the days of 3.0, chiefly because they come online at a time when the non-casters in the party are not equipped to participate in the encounter(s). Which is a shame, because they're really cool! Wraithslayer Dust doesn't even the playing field, but it does get rid of two powerful options that these nasty monsters have - the ability to retreat past all harm, and their incorporeal invulnerability. What it does not do is get rid of their touch attacks (still almost certified to hit), superior mobility (they still fly), nasty secondary effects (like ability damage) and ambush potential. The dust is intentionally powerful and useful, but it's not an encounter-ender.

EDIT - I should also probably note that the spell version of Flightbreaker, which would go in wands and the like, lasts for minutes/level instead of rounds.


Prince of Knives wrote:

I'll be addressing the rest of this in a bit. However:

Quote:

4)Wraithslayer Dust. As a burst effect, it should probably have a save. If it only influenced one weapon I could almost (...almost) see it at the price you have listed and even then my instincts are saying it's on the cheap side. As an area of effect that makes any and all targets in the area take the effect... So everyone else in your party can hit it without investing anything at all... With no save... Entirely too good for the price.

Incorporeal creatures can be nasty, but without that ability, they are usually pretty much push overs. 100 gp to negate an entire encounter? Sign me up. People talk about Save or Die, or Save or Suck spells. This is an item that doesn't even allow a save, it just makes things suck for the targeted creature(s).

What CR are, say, allips? How about shadows? Wraiths? These classic enemies have presented difficulties since back in the days of 3.0, chiefly because they come online at a time when the non-casters in the party are not equipped to participate in the encounter(s). Which is a shame, because they're really cool! Wraithslayer Dust doesn't even the playing field, but it does get rid of two powerful options that these nasty monsters have - the ability to retreat past all harm, and their incorporeal invulnerability. What it does not do is get rid of their touch attacks (still almost certified to hit), superior mobility (they still fly), nasty secondary effects (like ability damage) and ambush potential. The dust is intentionally powerful and useful, but it's not an encounter-ender.

EDIT - I should also probably note that the spell version of Flightbreaker, which would go in wands and the like, lasts for minutes/level instead of rounds.

I have no problem with the effect of the dust but I do feel that it's under-priced. In 3.5 there were three items that attempted to solve the issue that sadly never were updated to PF due to not being in OGL books. But anyway they were:

3.5 Books wrote:

Ghostoil from the Arms & Equipment Guide. 50gp, full-round action to apply, allowed your weapon to affect incorporeal creatures for two rounds.

Complete Adventurer had Ghostblight. Costs 100gp, standard action to apply, allows your weapon to affect incorporeal creatures normally for three rounds.

Spell Compendium had the Oil of Ghost Touch Weapon cost 750gp, standard action to apply and would last 5 minutes.

Compared to those the dust is underpriced but I don't know where a good compromise range would be. Perhaps 250gp for 5 rounds? It's about 1/4th of a 2nd level character's WBL which is when Allips are "challenging" (CR3) but as this is a cooperative game any party that doesn't pool their resources when exploring in an area rumored to have "spirits" and other "creatures of the dark" is just asking for trouble if they don't buy one of these to have on hand.

Cross posting this over to the GitP thread as well.


Flip side, incorporeal encounters are a small subset of the overall available monsters. How much should I charge to prep for something that may not come up frequently, or at all? Not all DMs warn about enemies ahead of time, and if the creature (say, an allip) is set up as a mystery...

I dunno, it's a bit thorny.

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