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If its not a creature is it an object? can I animate object it xDOr put him in the sun, or the bottom of the ocean or Temporal Stasis his corps.
Loads of ways to deal with it xD
I don't think temporal stasis would work, a corpse generally isn't considered a creature. As far as I can tell, though, it would work on a living Tarrasque so long as you can beat the SR and it botched the fort save.
Don't put him in the sun, that would piss off Eziah.
Only if you can raise your CL to 32
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A dead creature is still a creature. As it's a Creature with the "Dead" condition.
See Breath of Life's target
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The Tarrasque is immune to Fire. So it never die if you teleport it into the sun. Best case scenario it will just hibernate in it's cozy new bed until the Starfinder Era when some idiot dredges it out to unleash upon some hapless world... Worst case scenario the Tarrasque will eventually absorb and cancel enough of the sun's heat to put it out, dooming all life on Golarion to a frosty deaths (except those few creatures immune to cold and eventual asphyxiation).
Pretty sure Sun doesn't deal only fire, fire/electric and Radiation damage as well.
Big T is just a Tardigrade
tardigrades are the first known animal to survive in space
tardigrades can withstand 1,000 times more radiation than other animals,[50] median lethal doses of 5,000 Gy (of gamma rays) and 6,200 Gy (of heavy ions) in hydrated animals (5 to 10 Gy could be fatal to a human).
the longest that living tardigrades have been shown to survive in a dry state is nearly 10 years
they can withstand the extremely low pressure of a vacuum and also very high pressures, more than 1,200 times atmospheric pressure. Tardigrades can survive the vacuum of open space and solar radiation combined for at least 10 days.[46] Some species can also withstand pressure of 6,000 atmospheres, which is nearly six times the pressure of water in the deepest ocean trench, the Mariana trench.
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A dead creature is still a creature. As it's a Creature with the "Dead" condition.
See Breath of Life's target
There is no such thing as the "Dead" condition. "Dead" is a state, in which a creature ceases being a creature and becomes an object described as a "Corpse".
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There is no such thing as the "Dead" condition. "Dead" is a state, in which a creature ceases being a creature and becomes an object described as a "Corpse".A dead creature is still a creature. As it's a Creature with the "Dead" condition.
See Breath of Life's target
Target dead creature touched
It's a shame, we used to think this spell could work, but now I find there's no such thing as a dead creature and it has an invalid target.
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Seriously over thinking the dead object stuff. Developers have clarified in the past that corpses count as objects. They clearly also count as (dead) creatures.
Don't make a thing of it.
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There is no such thing as the "Dead" condition. "Dead" is a state, in which a creature ceases being a creature and becomes an object described as a "Corpse".A dead creature is still a creature. As it's a Creature with the "Dead" condition.
See Breath of Life's target
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I stand corrected
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Condition or no, corpses are still objects.
Otherwise, you couldn't have the animated object of a skeleton in a cage that is shown in the Bestiary.
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Speaking of that: you can animate Object all plants (not Plant type) because they count as objects.
Like trees, vines, etc.
So there can be living objects.
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So temporal stasis would work?
Or do we just need to get our CL to 32, cause I'm fairly sure that can be done, I'm at 31 off the top of my head xD.
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You place the subject into a state of suspended animation. For the creature, time ceases to flow, and its condition becomes fixed. The creature does not grow older. Its body functions virtually cease, and no force or effect can harm it
Doesn't temporal stasis make the subject immune to everything? Or would that produce an indestructible mecha Tarrasque?
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Its condition becomes fixed is the word I'm looking at
As in
If it has the dead condition .... is that a condition xD
Also pretty sure things paused in time can't move/think so it would be indestructible but also like immodile until the spell ceased and then it would no longer be indestructible
So yeah immune to everything and can't do anything.
So you can use animate object on dead things because they're "objects?" Why doesn't the book say they're objects? I love when devs feel like pulling rules out of thin air and pretend like it was always there.
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Pretty sure it qualifies as common sense. What would a corpse be if not an object? I'm fairly certain it fits the English definition of "object" in every way as well.
I'm sure that's what they based their statements off of; they probably figured it was understood.
Only a matter of time before someone asks them to define what a stick is, or ask something equally silly, like "how far does one need to jump to clear a ten-foot wide hole?"
;)
You can see the precedent for this in the very first Bestiary.
A skeleton-and-cage combination is, collectively, an animated object.
(It is clear, from context and descriptions, that the skeleton part is also animated - not just the cage.)
It's also a legacy issue from 3.X (as I recall, several adventures or rules or similar utilized bodies as objects) - that said, legacy can't always be counted on.
In any event, it's more of a case of presuming people are on the same wave length they are on without fully describing their thought process - the Core would be much, much larger than it is, if they did.
This is, of course, problematic when people are not on the same "wavelength" (as it were); but I don't blame them - they have huge pressure from both financial forces and fan-bases to produce quickly and do so with a manageable size.
I don't think they always succeed, and sometimes they don't by a significant margin. But they try really, really hard - and that's really all they can do, as human beings. I do wish they changed some aspects of their production process, but, frankly, it's a huge mental pressure on them to alter something so thoroughly committed to practice: to completely alter the way they handle things could break (mentally/emotionally) other points of production that are actually very important and well-liked by us. Humans are really funny that way - we have unrelated or only partially related elements that are mentally/emotionally deeply related. The PF design team likely has a lot of little habits that add up to the greatness we do have - it just comes with rider effects that I'm not as fond of.
(That said, many people disagree, so they're clearly doing something right: my personal preferences aren't everyone else's! XD)
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So if you animate the Tarrasque's corpse, and then un-stasis it. Can you still pilot direct it?
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I don't think you can animate it whilst it's in stasis
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I mean technically animated isn't a condition and technically it's not harming it :P
But yea no I don't think you actually can animate it when it's in stasis.
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So if you animate the Tarrasque's corpse, and then un-stasis it. Can you stillpilotdirect it?
As I understand it, no. Because (assuming stasis works on dead creatures, which I don't know is the case) once out of stasis its regeneration kicks in, brings it back to life, at which point it is no longer an object.
A wish spell can kill a tarrasque? Lv20 lore oracle and a few others can cast once per day with spell completion items on hand of course.
That's only in 3.5 - Paizo explicitly removed that text when they remade it for Pathfinder.
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umm think it was a wish spell could keep it dead... and it could in PF...
Only if the DM allows it. And, let's be real here, they're not likely to let a wish spell take care of it if they bothered to bust out Big T in the first place. Unless the wish keeps it dead by summoning Ulunat to eat it (and, of course, you).
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I will allow the Ulunat scenario.
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What is Ulunat and what happened to it?
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In response to the Sphere of Annihilation arguments made earlier, I would argue that since the Tarrasque gets his regeneration specifically from being a spawn of Rovagug in Pathfinder, said regeneration allows for the Tarrasque to return via the "acts of Gods can restore a creature killed by a Sphere to life" portion of the artifacts text. Essentially, Big T's "always regenerates from any kind of death effect" power is a constant miracle sustained by his connection to the Rough Beast.
umm think it was a wish spell could keep it dead... and it could in PF...
Tarrasque, my dude - both PF versions.
If you want a more "official" site for some reason, though note that the PRD lacks the Spawn of Rogagug version, and only has the Bestiary 1 version.
Now, compare that wording with the 3.5 one and you'll see the difference.
In 3.5, it was explicitly part of the regen mechanics that either wish or miracle could keep it dead.
In PF, those lines were excised, and it was given more immunities.
A given GM could always rule differently, of course, and that's fine, but the explicit RAW, "it works" unfortunately no longer applies.
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But how did they tucker it out?
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Ulunat and the God kings had a big party with lot's of property damage.
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Why wasn't I invited!
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What is Ulunat and what happened to it?
Quick and dirty explanation. It's (probably) the first spawn of Rovagug that rampaged through Orision back in the day. It was (probably) stopped by by the God-Kings, the semi-mythical pharaohs of Orision some 8000 years ago. Its shell sits in what is now the city of Sothis. And, despite its long dormancy, it isn't dead and may wake soon.
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In response to the Sphere of Annihilation arguments made earlier, I would argue that since the Tarrasque gets his regeneration specifically from being a spawn of Rovagug in Pathfinder, said regeneration allows for the Tarrasque to return via the "acts of Gods can restore a creature killed by a Sphere to life" portion of the artifacts text. Essentially, Big T's "always regenerates from any kind of death effect" power is a constant miracle sustained by his connection to the Rough Beast.
You are misquoting the text:
Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character.
Having inherited awesome Regeneration from a deity is indirect intervention at best, it is in no way comparable to that deity directly intervening in your utter annihilation.
"Annihilation" (Complete destruction or obliteration.) is not the same as "disintegration" (The process of coming to pieces.), nor is the effect explicitly described as a 'Death Effect' or as being based on a spell with the "Death" descriptor...
Death: Spells with the death descriptor directly attack a creature's life force to cause immediate death, or to draw on the power of a dead or dying creature. The death ward spell protects against death effects, and some creature types are immune to death effects.
So Bit-T's Regeneration (Ex) doesn't protect it from Death-By-Sphere. Furthermore, 'Big-T' never received a saving throw against the effect, so the 3-round resurrection clause never triggers either.
According to the RAW not even a Spawn of Rovagug is immune to the Sphere of Annihilation (the Tarrasque is no exception). It is just that simple. It isn't my fault that whomever wrote that subtype was unaware of a minor artifact published in the Core Rulebook that would unequivocally and irrevocably destroy them.
The comment in the regeneration description about no method of slaying the spawn having been discovered either proves the author's ignorance, or declares that no one in Golarion has ever attempted to use a Sphere of Annihilation against a Spawn of Rovagug before. It in no way proves that the tactic doesn't work.
Why would you really want to kill the Terrasque anyways?
I mean, it would be like Wyle E. Coyote finally catching the Roadrunner or Batman definitively killing the Joker or vice versa...
"Well, what is there left to do then?"
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You are misquoting the text:
Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character.Having inherited awesome Regeneration from a deity is indirect intervention at best, it is in no way comparable to that deity directly intervening in your utter annihilation.
How the spawn's regeneration works is not explained, only the mechanical effects. It could be it just inherited it, it could be a direct link to Rovagug itself that fuels it. The ambiguity exists (probably deliberately) so making definitive statements about it outside of your own game doesn't exactly mean anything.
"Annihilation" (Complete destruction or obliteration.) is not the same as "disintegration" (The process of coming to pieces.), nor is the effect explicitly described as a 'Death Effect' or as being based on a spell with the "Death" descriptor...
Death: Spells with the death descriptor directly attack a creature's life force to cause immediate death, or to draw on the power of a dead or dying creature. The death ward spell protects against death effects, and some creature types are immune to death effects.So Bit-T's Regeneration (Ex) doesn't protect it from Death-By-Sphere. Furthermore, 'Big-T' never received a saving throw against the effect, so the 3-round resurrection clause never triggers either.
Whether it works or not is, again, ambiguous. It works if the DM allows it to work.
According to the RAW not even a Spawn of Rovagug is immune to the Sphere of Annihilation (the Tarrasque is no exception). It is just that simple. It isn't my fault that whomever wrote that subtype was unaware of a minor artifact published in the Core Rulebook that would unequivocally and irrevocably destroy them.
The comment in the regeneration description about no method of slaying the spawn having been discovered either proves the author's ignorance, or...
Again, no it doesn't, it is ambiguous. It is unlikely that the author was unaware of the Sphere, its more likely that the Sphere is a corner case that simple wasn't worth addressing. There is just as much RAW indicating that a Sphere would not work as there is that it would work. You know, unless you just decide to dismiss parts of the rules like "no form of attack can suppress this regeneration" or "a method to kill spawn has yet to be discovered." Especially when a minor artifact like a Sphere would be known by at least the higher level magic users.
Look, again, the whole point of the Tarrasque, all the spawn of Rovagug really, it to give a challenge that (at least in theory) can't be beaten completely simply by having enough big numbers on your character sheet. The ambiguity is there to allow for more dynamic or inventive solutions. Could a Sphere work? Sure, tracking down a Sphere, figuring out how to move it/move Big T to it and get them in contact could be a fine adventure. However, it's just as valid to have a Sphere fail to destroy T, necessitating a new strategy. Making definitive statements about ambiguous things doesn't really do anyone any good.
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...it is ambiguous...
That simply isn't true. Comparing the actual rules within the relevant texts makes it clear this is an entirely valid, and rules legal, tactic for permanently* destroying the Tarrasque.
*Assuming of course no deity, such as Rovagug (whose spawn you just annihilated), is willing to intervene directly.There is nothing ambiguous about the source of a Spawn of Rovagug's Regneration special ability. The origin of those abilities is right there in the name of the subtype; the creature inherits them as a result of being spawned by Rovagug. The text in no way supports your spurious assertion that the Spawn's Regeneration constitutes Direct Intervention on the part of Rovagug.
That clause at the end of Regeneration isn't rules text per say (as game rules are generally permissive, not prohibitive), it is a challenge; calling the players to find a solution which overcomes the (almost) ironclad logic problem that is the Spawn's crazy Regeneration ability.
That being said, regardless of the tactic's legality, the whole thing still falls solidly into GM Fiat territory. The Sphere is an Artifact (albeit a Minor one), you cannot buy one, or make one, or even find one if the GM doesn't want you too. Which mean's it's possible existence and usage in this case doesn't prevent the Spawn from doing its job and being "the monster you can't just kill with a big enough damage roll". I'm sure there are a few other, similarly book legal methods of permanently putting down the Tarrasque, certainly there are plenty of methods of ending it's threat to a campaign.
Finally, don't forget that the most terrifying aspect of the Spawn of Rogagug is that fact that Rovagug can always make more of them. It is The Universe Devouring God Of Utter Destruction after all; even all the gods working together couldn't slay the Rough Beast.
Actually Rovagug is locked up, creating the spawn at the "door" to its prison is all it can do. Direct action/links like you suggest doesn't make sense.
How the spawn's regeneration works is not explained, only the mechanical effects. It could be it just inherited it, it could be a direct link to Rovagug itself that fuels it. The ambiguity exists (probably deliberately) so making definitive statements about it outside of your own game doesn't exactly mean anything.
His prison prevents him from physically entering any other planes and destroying them. His divine powers can still reach out from the planes and effect the physical world. It's how his clerics get their powers. A divine miracle like reviving a dead creature from a Sphere of Annihilation would easily fall under the effects of a Miracle spell, which his Clerics can cast.
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...it is ambiguous...That simply isn't true. Comparing the actual rules within the relevant texts makes it clear this is an entirely valid, and rules legal, tactic for permanently* destroying the Tarrasque.
*Assuming of course no deity, such as Rovagug (whose spawn you just annihilated), is willing to intervene directly.There is nothing ambiguous about the source of a Spawn of Rovagug's Regneration special ability. The origin of those abilities is right there in the name of the subtype; the creature inherits them as a result of being spawned by Rovagug. The text in no way supports your spurious assertion that the Spawn's Regeneration constitutes Direct Intervention on the part of Rovagug.
Nothing spurious about it, there is no explicit explanation of how their regeneration works, leaving it open to interpretation.
That clause at the end of Regeneration isn't rules text per say (as game rules are generally permissive, not prohibitive), it is a challenge; calling the players to find a solution which overcomes the (almost) ironclad logic problem that is the Spawn's crazy Regeneration ability.
There is no reason it can't be both.
That being said, regardless of the tactic's legality, the whole thing still falls solidly into GM Fiat territory. The Sphere is an Artifact (albeit a Minor one), you cannot buy one, or make one, or even find one if the GM doesn't want you too. Which mean's it's possible existence and usage in this case doesn't prevent the Spawn from doing its job and being "the monster you can't just kill with a big enough damage roll". I'm sure there are a few other, similarly book legal methods of permanently putting down the Tarrasque, certainly there are plenty of methods of ending it's threat to a campaign.
Which is basically what I said, with the caveat that making definitive statements about purposefully ambiguous things is pointless. Sure, it absolutely could work, but nothing says it absolutely must work.
Finally, don't forget that the most terrifying aspect of the Spawn of Rogagug is that fact that Rovagug can always make more of them. It is The Universe Devouring God Of Utter Destruction after all; even all the gods working together couldn't slay the Rough Beast.
And? What does that have to do with the discussion at hand?
Actually Rovagug is locked up, creating the spawn at the "door" to its prison is all it can do. Direct action/links like you suggest doesn't make sense.
Actually, as Oskar stated, Rovagug totally grants spells, so while it's physically limited, it can influence things outside its prison. Additionally, how do you think it is making its spawn? If it's making them outside the "door," then it's pretty obvious that it can take certain actions outside the prison. If it's making them inside and sending them out...then it's still pretty obvious it can take certain actions outside of the prison.
Despite their majesty, the seals that hold Rovagug were crafted in haste, and at the time of their construction the gods did not yet truly understand the full scope of Rovagug’s abilities. Thus, like a great sieve, the barriers block Rovagug’s escape but cannot fully prevent the god’s influence from leaking out
Though, this does open up a new route of beating Big T. Somehow lead it to the Dead Vault and trap it with its creator. Whether or not Rovagug could help it escape again or would have to start over from scratch is up to the DM, but it could work.
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inb4 orb of annihilation actually transfers those it eats into Rovagug's prison to be devoured by him and he instead chooses to just spit big T back out.
The better case though is that it explicitly says in it's regeneration that there is no known way to kill it, In a book that was published after the book that contains the Orb (CRB). I would assume that line was meant to include any workarounds / possibilities as shorthand instead of enumerating every possibility.
Which is basically saying, you cannot kill the Tarrasque except via fiat, there is no mechanical way to kill this creature.
There's also the question of what count's as a Deity? Empyral lords can grant spells do they count as deities, what about Demon lords? The Tarrasque is CR 25 within the range of some Empyreal and demon lords, his regeneration could be considered as a deific effect.
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inb4 orb of annihilation actually transfers those it eats into Rovagug's prison to be devoured by him and he instead chooses to just spit big T back out.
The better case though is that it explicitly says in it's regeneration that there is no known way to kill it, In a book that was published after the book that contains the Orb (CRB). I would assume that line was meant to include any workarounds / possibilities as shorthand instead of enumerating every possibility.
Which is basically saying, you cannot kill the Tarrasque except via fiat, there is no mechanical way to kill this creature.
There's also the question of what count's as a Deity? Empyral lords can grant spells do they count as deities, what about Demon lords? The Tarrasque is CR 25 within the range of some Empyreal and demon lords, his regeneration could be considered as a deific effect.
My tier 3 mythic paladin can grant spells up to 5th level.
Can he undo the effects of a sphere? Or would he have to wait until he can grant Miracle?
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Well given Deity has no actual definition in the game as far as i can tell other than that they grant spells... definite maybe?
Well given Deity has no actual definition in the game as far as i can tell other than that they grant spells... definite maybe?
A Deity also has access to 5 Domains and 6 Sub Domains, while lower level Divine being such as Demon Lord, Mythic Casters and what have you only grant 4 Domains and 5 Sub-Domains. So that would be the difference, among other things.
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Well given Deity has no actual definition in the game as far as i can tell other than that they grant spells... definite maybe?
looking at the expanse of the Galorion settings deities 5 domains 6 sub-domains doesn't seem to be a standard that's adhered to as there seems to be quite a few exceptions outside of the core deities.
And as far as I can tell what count's as a Deity is still a matter that's ultimately up to the GM as there's no real rules surrounding it. Personaly I don't think ruling that the Tarrasque's regeneration is of deific strength would be unreasonable.
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People have quoted a heck of a lot of books in this thread. Ere long, it will be a veritable swamp of pages to drown said tarrasque in. For a while....
To elsewise kill a Tarrasque by the books might require using the bestrenghened corners or ensorcell'd paper cuts? Drop them on it from a mythic height?
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Personaly I don't think ruling that the Tarrasque's regeneration is of deific strength would be unreasonable.
Except that we have no supporting text indicating that the Tarrasque's regeneration is treated any differently than any other Extraordinary Ability:
Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.
Therefore I find it spurious to claim that the Spawn's Regeneration can be both "nonmagical" and constitute "direct intervention" by a deity at the same time. Especially considering that the abilities granted by clerical Domains are Supernatural or Spell-Like Abilities, and Divine Spells are obviously magical as well.
If the Spawn's Regeneration were granted by their connection to Rogagug, they would be Supernatural Abilities, and we could turn them off using an Antimagic Field, or by luring the Spawn into an area with the Dead Magic trait.