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The weapon cord is used once a round and as a swift action....it isn't doing anything to push the number of free actions.
Here is how the attack routine breaks down, again:
You don't switch guns with each shot. You have the right gun in hand, Gun in left is dangling, fire both barrels of RHgun, 2 free actions to reload, Fire both again, 2 free actions to reload, fire both again, 2 free actions to reload . Then you free action drop the RHgun, Swift action retrieve the loaded LHgun, fire both barrels, 2 free actions to reload, fire both barrels, 2 free actions to reload, fire both barrels, free action to reload. Next round you use the LHgun for the first 3 double attacks and the RHgun for the last 3 double attacks.
It is 13 free actions a round and 1 swift action to achieve this.
Everybody has long since established how this works. I 'm actually the one who explained that routine earlier in this thread. It's the fact that weapon cords allow this in the first place that brings them into the equation.
A note on TWF and the second attack round:
Two Weapon Fighting states "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon." At the start of that second round, he isn't wielding two weapons, he's wielding one. I don't really agree with this being a limiting factor (a TWF dagger thrower seems perfectly valid, for example, and he probably doesn't have two weapons in his hands at all times) but that particular reference seems to come up every time this discussion is had, so I thought I'd drop it in here.
You don't switch guns with each shot. You have the right gun in hand, Gun in left is dangling, fire both barrels of RHgun, 2 free actions to reload, Fire both again, 2 free actions to reload, fire both again, 2 free actions to reload . Then you free action drop the RHgun, Swift action retrieve the loaded LHgun, fire both barrels, 2 free actions to reload, fire both barrels, 2 free actions...Even if there is a way around the weapons cord, I'm assuming that's the quick draw feat, You still run into the problem of reloading. Between each shot is not one but at least 2 free actions. Making it 28 free actions to reload. Even if he's only using one hand at a time that's another free action to draw the weapon making it 29; unless he's that chick from the anime that can bounce bullets out of her top and reload her revolver with out using her hands.
In general, what your player wants to do is half-way possible... but not with the weapons he wants to do it with. It's easier to convince a DM to let you take 3 or 4 free actions a round than it is to take 29.
I play a dual wielding pistolero when I can convince the DM to let me use Revolvers. It gets expensive, unless you can make your own ammo, then not so much. I can reload all of my cambers, IE barrels, needing 14 free actions; my group considers that if you can draw the weapon as a free action you can tuck it away as one. But that's if I let the chambers go empty. Rapid Shot was never designed to be used with crossbows, it can be with certain feats and the correct crossbow, but I see pistols as the same way as crossbows. With the right abilities you can lower the amount of time to reload to a free action; but stick with the wording for free actions. It takes no time at all but there may be a limit to the number of free actions taken. 29 free actions? That sounds like a full round action to me.
DM's are players to... so when my group of level 15 adventurers kills the party don't be mad, my char's needed the exp and loot too.
this---and there is a post--labeled gunslingers for Hakken--in which I asked these very questions and Mike Brock responded where he specifically said weapon cords do NOT interfere with reloading and that the official response is Paizo did NOT limit the number of free actions.
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this---and there is a post--labeled gunslingers for Hakken--in which I asked these very questions and Mike Brock responded where he specifically said weapon cords do NOT interfere with reloading and that the official response is Paizo did NOT limit the number of free actions.
Because like I mentioned earlier, this really isn't an issue in PFS. When you start at level 1 and have to buy all of those alchemical cartridges at market price, this build becomes as much of a hindrance as it is a benefit, since it sucks away your gold and makes it very difficult to save up enough to upgrade weapons and buy new gear. It's really only when you start a character at high levels and he's a big pile of cash to throw around that this even becomes an issue.
If you feel like it's unbalancing your game, throw enemies at the party that level the playing field. Monks and ninjas don't care that you're targeting touch AC. There's also a 3.5 spell called Scintillating Scales that converts a creature's Natural Armor bonus into a deflection bonus. Forcing a Gunslinger to target the same AC as everyone else or wait for his caster to debuff the enemy can turn it back into a team game instead of a "watch the gunslinger slay a great wyrm red dragon in one round!" event.
Because like I mentioned earlier, this really isn't an issue in PFS. When you start at level 1 and have to buy all of those alchemical cartridges at market price, this build becomes as much of a hindrance as it is a benefit, since it sucks away your gold and makes it very difficult to save up enough to upgrade weapons and buy new gear. It's really only when you start a character at high levels and he's a big pile of cash to throw around that this even becomes an issue.
Well... or you have a friend who always plays someone with Abundant Ammunition. That really offsets the cost, and arguably (since alchemical ammunition isn't 'magical') there's nothing that bars it.
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Because like I mentioned earlier, this really isn't an issue in PFS. When you start at level 1 and have to buy all of those alchemical cartridges at market price, this build becomes as much of a hindrance as it is a benefit, since it sucks away your gold and makes it very difficult to save up enough to upgrade weapons and buy new gear. It's really only when you start a character at high levels and he's a big pile of cash to throw around that this even becomes an issue.Well... or you have a friend who always plays someone with Abundant Ammunition. That really offsets the cost, and arguably (since alchemical ammunition isn't 'magical') there's nothing that bars it.
True, I suppose. At least then you're still playing a team game ;)
And going through those low levels with a double barreled pistol with it's Misfire chance increased by alchemical cartridges is still probably going to cost you a bit at some point.
Yeah, the likelihood that you're actually going to get off all those shots at a lower level with the misfire chance is...
Let's say I wouldn't wanna take that risk..
dwarf gunslinger with favored class--and trade one of the +1s on each pistol for reliable.
double barrel misfire 2 +1 more for alchemical cartridges
dwarf by 8th level takes two off of misfire to min of 1--reliable takes misfire to 0
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A 5th level Mysterious Stranger with a good Charisma works too.He's giving up DEX to damage and doesn't get the Up Close and Deadly bonus of the Pistolero though, so he's not quite the damage monster that other builds can become.
He gets to add his Charisma bonus though. That makes him more MAD but the ignore misfire ability helps make up for that in the DPR category.
You're forgetting that the pistolero should also be doing half of (4d6) with each miss (up close and personal).
Yes, this is an amazing amount of damage but it is still a little low for a TWF double-barreled pistolero created at level 15. The game is known to break down at higher levels and this is an example of it, but playing this character up to level 15 would have been incredibly aggravating and prior to level 13 the character would have been unreliable.
To shut down such a character (if the character does not have deft shootist), she/he/it provokes an attack-of-opportunity every time they fire and also when they reload - throw a critter with reach & combat reflexes next to the gunslinger and the options are no full attack action or hurting gunslinger (a CR 13 Ice Devil presents a serious challenge to a level 15 character, joy joy). Character starts with 2 attacks, provokes and AoO, reloads one barrel, provokes an AoO, reloads the second barrel, provokes an AoO, makes two attacks, provokes and AoO, reloads one barrel, provokes and AoO, reloads the second barrel, provokes an AoO ... .
Absolutely. This character can definitely die quite easily. Hopefully I can get my AC up a little more.
Absolutely. This character can definitely die quite easily. Hopefully I can get my AC up a little more.You're forgetting that the pistolero should also be doing half of (4d6) with each miss (up close and personal).
Yes, this is an amazing amount of damage but it is still a little low for a TWF double-barreled pistolero created at level 15. The game is known to break down at higher levels and this is an example of it, but playing this character up to level 15 would have been incredibly aggravating and prior to level 13 the character would have been unreliable.
To shut down such a character (if the character does not have deft shootist), she/he/it provokes an attack-of-opportunity every time they fire and also when they reload - throw a critter with reach & combat reflexes next to the gunslinger and the options are no full attack action or hurting gunslinger (a CR 13 Ice Devil presents a serious challenge to a level 15 character, joy joy). Character starts with 2 attacks, provokes and AoO, reloads one barrel, provokes an AoO, reloads the second barrel, provokes an AoO, makes two attacks, provokes and AoO, reloads one barrel, provokes and AoO, reloads the second barrel, provokes an AoO ... .
Question, so with each dual shot of my pistol, does each pellet receive the 4d6 of precision damage from the up close and personal deed, or do I only get it once per firing of the gun? So 12 x 4d6 or 6 x 4d6?
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Precision damage should only apply to one barrel... But it sdoesn't specifically say that, so you'll have to take it on a case by case basis. In the case of the Pistolero's up close and Deadly, he needs to spend a grit point to apply the bonus damage to a single hit, so you'd be spending grit at a pretty astronomical rate. The attacks for a double barreled pistol are fired with a single action, but they're still two separate attacks.
Precision damage should only apply to one barrel... But it sdoesn't specifically say that, so you'll have to take it on a case by case basis. In the case of the Pistolero's up close and Deadly, he needs to spend a grit point to apply the bonus damage to a single hit, so you'd be spending grit at a pretty astronomical rate. The attacks for a double barreled pistol are fired with a single action, but they're still two separate attacks.
So then it should be treated as like a scorching ray in terms of precision damage? Even though you shoot 3 different rays, you only apply the precision damage to one ray?
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Precision damage should only apply to one barrel... But it sdoesn't specifically say that, so you'll have to take it on a case by case basis. In the case of the Pistolero's up close and Deadly, he needs to spend a grit point to apply the bonus damage to a single hit, so you'd be spending grit at a pretty astronomical rate. The attacks for a double barreled pistol are fired with a single action, but they're still two separate attacks.
not if it is his signature deed. Then it costs 1 less grit point so is basically free to do up close and deadly every shot
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Precision damage should only apply to one barrel... But it sdoesn't specifically say that, so you'll have to take it on a case by case basis. In the case of the Pistolero's up close and Deadly, he needs to spend a grit point to apply the bonus damage to a single hit, so you'd be spending grit at a pretty astronomical rate. The attacks for a double barreled pistol are fired with a single action, but they're still two separate attacks.So then it should be treated as like a scorching ray in terms of precision damage? Even though you shoot 3 different rays, you only apply the precision damage to one ray?
According to the ability, it applies to one hit, and each bullet is a separate attack, just made using a single action. So a single use of Up Close and Deadly only applies to one barrel's attack. Of course, as was pointed out previously, since it's your Signature Deed it doesn't really matter.
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PFS 'Slingers get to buy alchemical paper cartridges for 1/2 price and all other types of ammo for 1/10 price.
Since when?
EDIT: NM, found it- "Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed reduced price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm."
A zen archer can flurry with his bow. Someone with the Snap Shot line of feats can get an additional number of AoO's as people that charge him, or his Dexterity modifier, whichever is less.
It's pretty easy to get 20+ attacks in a round as an archer.
How many free actions are you going to limit that guy to?
This isn't a gunslinger problem.
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A zen archer can flurry with his bow. Someone with the Snap Shot line of feats can get an additional number of AoO's as people that charge him, or his Dexterity modifier, whichever is less.
It's pretty easy to get 20+ attacks in a round as an archer.
How many free actions are you going to limit that guy to?
This isn't a gunslinger problem.
No, it's just one greatly exacerbated by the Gunslinger to a degree seen with no other class.
I personally am not a fan of limiting free actions, but the gunslinger does have the potential to get nearly twice as many as even a Zen archer. He can Rapid Shot and TWF giving him one more attack than the Zen archer can get, and then he can double that number with Double barreled pistols. He also can take Snap Shot and it's improved version, just like the Zen Archer. So the Gunslinger is using more than twice the number of free actions than even the Zen archer utilizes.
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Okay, look at this from an in-character perspective.
Big Stupid Fighter: "Hey, Pistolero, I notice that you fire a bunch of times with one gun, then drop it, pull a different gun with your other hand, and fire it a bunch of times. I was just wondering... If you have time to pull another gun and fire it a bunch of times, why don't you just keep the first one and keep firing?"
Pistolero: "Well, you see, if I use two guns I can fire twice as many times. Two guns means twice as many attacks!"
BSF: "Oh! That makes sense!"
Wizard: "I think I lost some spell slots just by listening to that..."
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Precision damage should only apply to one barrel... But it sdoesn't specifically say that, so you'll have to take it on a case by case basis. In the case of the Pistolero's up close and Deadly, he needs to spend a grit point to apply the bonus damage to a single hit, so you'd be spending grit at a pretty astronomical rate. The attacks for a double barreled pistol are fired with a single action, but they're still two separate attacks.So then it should be treated as like a scorching ray in terms of precision damage? Even though you shoot 3 different rays, you only apply the precision damage to one ray?
Slight derail, but wasn't the volley rule discarded in Pathfinder? I thought all Scorching Rays get precision.
EDIT: never mind I checked the FAQ. It was a recent ruling that precision is only applied once, hence why I was unaware.
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Slight derail, but wasn't the volley rule discarded in Pathfinder? I thought all Scorching Rays get precision.Precision damage should only apply to one barrel... But it sdoesn't specifically say that, so you'll have to take it on a case by case basis. In the case of the Pistolero's up close and Deadly, he needs to spend a grit point to apply the bonus damage to a single hit, so you'd be spending grit at a pretty astronomical rate. The attacks for a double barreled pistol are fired with a single action, but they're still two separate attacks.So then it should be treated as like a scorching ray in terms of precision damage? Even though you shoot 3 different rays, you only apply the precision damage to one ray?
Sneak Attack: Can I add sneak attack damage to simultaneous attacks from a spell?
No. For example, scorching ray fires simultaneous rays at one or more targets, and the extra damage is only added once to one ray, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.Spell-based attacks which are not simultaneous, such as multiple attacks per round by a 8th-level druid using flame blade, may apply sneak attack damage to each attack so long as each attack qualifies for sneak attack (the target is denied its Dex bonus or the caster is flanking the target).
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/19/13
Volley rule was but it seems to have been the reason for the ray ruling. With double barreled pistols I would just base it on being hit in the heart with two bullets at the same time is significantly less than twice as deadly as being hit in the heart by one bullet. If both bullets hit, they are both going to hit the same spot so precision damage should only apply once. Really only an issue when a pistolero has signature deed:up close and deadly as well as no chance of misfires, which is level 13 (and other classes are breaking down by then, so probably not a pressing issue for the devs).Precision damage should only apply to one barrel... But it sdoesn't specifically say that, so you'll have to take it on a case by case basis. In the case of the Pistolero's up close and Deadly, he needs to spend a grit point to apply the bonus damage to a single hit, so you'd be spending grit at a pretty astronomical rate. The attacks for a double barreled pistol are fired with a single action, but they're still two separate attacks.So then it should be treated as like a scorching ray in terms of precision damage? Even though you shoot 3 different rays, you only apply the precision damage to one ray?Slight derail, but wasn't the volley rule discarded in Pathfinder? I thought all Scorching Rays get precision.
EDIT: never mind I checked the FAQ. It was a recent ruling that precision is only applied once, hence why I was unaware.
I just thought of something. The precision thing is a non-issue because I have to spend grit points in order to apply to a hit. It is a completely different mechanism than let's say sneak attack. So I can apply that deed to each shot fired.
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I just thought of something. The precision thing is a non-issue because I have to spend grit points in order to apply to a hit. It is a completely different mechanism than let's say sneak attack. So I can apply that deed to each shot fired.Volley rule was but it seems to have been the reason for the ray ruling. With double barreled pistols I would just base it on being hit in the heart with two bullets at the same time is significantly less than twice as deadly as being hit in the heart by one bullet. If both bullets hit, they are both going to hit the same spot so precision damage should only apply once. Really only an issue when a pistolero has signature deed:up close and deadly as well as no chance of misfires, which is level 13 (and other classes are breaking down by then, so probably not a pressing issue for the devs).Precision damage should only apply to one barrel... But it sdoesn't specifically say that, so you'll have to take it on a case by case basis. In the case of the Pistolero's up close and Deadly, he needs to spend a grit point to apply the bonus damage to a single hit, so you'd be spending grit at a pretty astronomical rate. The attacks for a double barreled pistol are fired with a single action, but they're still two separate attacks.So then it should be treated as like a scorching ray in terms of precision damage? Even though you shoot 3 different rays, you only apply the precision damage to one ray?Slight derail, but wasn't the volley rule discarded in Pathfinder? I thought all Scorching Rays get precision.
EDIT: never mind I checked the FAQ. It was a recent ruling that precision is only applied once, hence why I was unaware.
That's true it doesn't really limit it just "when you hit a target". So you would apply each independently. There is some discussion around about the action it takes to fire both barrels at once though:
"each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action."Some are saying that firing both would be a standard action. I disagree but I could see this as a houserule to nerf the Pistolero although it really just F's the double-barreled pistol into uselessness.
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I am not saying I agree with the Standard Action ruling, though technically it would be an interpretation, not a House Rule.
Regardless, I would still say that having a weapon that gives you an extra attack when you make a standard action attack is hardly useless. It usually requires several feats to accomplish that via other means.
I am not saying I agree with the Standard Action ruling, though technically it would be an interpretation, not a House Rule.
Regardless, I would still say that having a weapon that gives you an extra attack when you make a standard action attack is hardly useless. It usually requires several feats to accomplish that via other means.
Alright everyone, the DM of the game made a ruling. In order to use the double barrel option, it is a standard action. So using a full round action, I cannot use the double barrels.
That ruling makes me sad. =( Oh well.... time to reconfigure my feats a little and take rapid shot. LOL
So with rapid shot and my boots of speed.... for ten rounds, I still get 8 shots.