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There isnt actually an answer to this question. I doubt any two people will precisely agree. The reality is 'power gaming' means 'doing something I personally think is over the top with your character'. The line between 'making a character tha works' and 'powergaming' is drawn in dry erase marker on the floor of a heavly traveled room where everyone is wearing erasers for shoes.
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you will get answers
and they will not be able to agree ever on identifying what constitutes munchkining vs. power-gaming vs. optimizing vs. viability vs. effectiveness vs. specialization vs. prioritizing
the question is extremely subjective toward the interests and tolerances of the people involved in the particular game
pitch black dart thread
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Powergaming is when I don't like it.
Simple.
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It think its a blurry thing. On one hand you can usually tell when someone is power gaming at a table, but putting a frame around the picture is difficult.
I don't think you can look at a player and call them a powergamer without actually sitting down and playing with them You have to take a moment and see if their feats/build match their character concept in some plausible way. A lot of the time for me it comes down to ridiculousness of a character or overplayed abilities.
For instance, I just started play PFS and I've met three people who play wizards and who have mage tattoo feat and the gifted trait. Thats a lot of burning hands for 4d4 or 5d4. Its kind if crazy how many spell casters these days are tattooing up... Is it power gaming? Maybe. Does it make complete sense for some characters? Totally. Is it that much different than a fighter doing 1d12 +10 with reach and combat reflexes? Its just hard to say.
I also agree with all of the above points.
Powergaming is when I don't like it.
Simple.
Pretty much, and is more honest than many other answers you'll get.
Some GMs don't like characters to be effective, some GMs have a higher tolerance, but it really just boils down to "When the GM doesn't like it."
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I think a powergamer is someone who instead of having a character concept and and developing that concept has a 'power' or 'ability' they want to maximize and they choose feats/traits/race combinations that do so, even if (and especially this part) the combination is hard to justify.
ie when you have to justify why a character is a certain way and its not just a natural progression, that's more being a power gamer.
I find this a lot when folks pour though 3pp material and ask 'can I use this from this splat book?'
or when a player says 'I have this character I worked up. Id like a Gamemaster to create an adventure for him...'
That's usually a tip off ;)
and before someone says something---I don't mind a Powergamer. Its no more detracting than a Rules lawyer or a Diva as player archetypes. As a DM you know what you have an you work with it. :D
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Powergaming in my mind is making artificial choices for a character purely for the sake of more power. Taking a level of this and a level of that because they provide the best option, not because they are fitting. It's dumping stats because they aren't key to get that extra +1 and pursuing combat power to the determinant of character.
As Potter Stewart once said, I know it when I see it.
Cheese over character (a stat block or a combination of items and abilities more than it is a character to actually play).
It is a problem that comes with crunchy systems, item dependency, and way too many special abilities which are not balanced.
Powergaming is when I don't like it.
Simple.
Yep.
'Rollplaying' has the same definition.
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There is your answer wind chime power gaming is in the eye of the beholder.
I agree with Pan power gaming is in the eye of the beholder. While some play the game to be the strongest others will make the best talker, and weakest combatant. Like for example in PFS i don't care about role playing. In a home game i care about role playing. I don't enjoy meeting up with random people just to role play once.
I am in a home game right now playing as a Ranger and while i am sort of power gaming him i am also building him as a smart character because he is a beast, and i will role play him, because i am going around the world stopping a supernatural darkness.
Also most people would argue that power gaming isn't always a fun thing i would say well it saves lives rather than role play with people and die with them.
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There is your answer wind chime power gaming is in the eye of the beholder.I agree with Pan power gaming is in the eye of the beholder. While some play the game to be the strongest others will make the best talker, and weakest combatant. Like for example in PFS i don't care about role playing. In a home game i care about role playing. I don't enjoy meeting up with random people just to role play once.
I am in a home game right now playing as a Ranger and while i am sort of power gaming him i am also building him as a smart character because he is a beast, and i will role play him, because i am going around the world stopping a supernatural darkness.
Also most people would argue that power gaming isn't always a fun thing i would say well it saves lives rather than role play with people and die with them.
Eye of the beholder indeed. I love role playing at PFS. Meeting new people is fun and quite enjoyable for me. I must be blessed though because my PFS is so popular I am always meeting new people. Not only that but PFS for me has been a happy meeting ground of new and experienced gamers. At my local PFS we have had roll-players sit right next to role-players and everyone somehow has fun. Which is why I was so surprised to see the "optimize or GTFO of PFS thread" awhile ago.
Back on topic though, every person has their own line in the sand. There is no objective list or point you can use to determine power gaming on any substantial level. If you are "kinda power gaming" that's based solely on your own interpretation.
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Beholders are not in PF.
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Powergaming itself isn't hard to define. It's when the player is making character choices based on optimizing game mechanics, as opposed to fleshing out a character concept.
What is hard is getting people to agree when they've crossed the line from concept creation to power gaming.
I tend to know when I do it. And I do it. Everyone does it. The game is designed specifically to promote and reward it.
As long as the power gaming choices are in line with the character concept, it's not really a problem. "I want to make the worlds most badass greatsword user" aligns power gaming and character concept pretty well.
The only time I've ever really had any issue with any player power gaming was when the player insisted repeatedly on using material that I had disallowed from my game because I felt it was overpowered. The player in question was simply not happy with the idea that anyone, anywhere might have designed and played a character who could do more damage or be more awesome than his character.
I prefer to have reasonable levels of power gaming from my players, and I'm pretty generous in accepting power gaming. I like a challenge.
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Powergaming is a common problem whose existence is steadfastly denied by people guilty of powergaming themselves.
It consists of seeking out and exploiting loopholes in the rules to build an unstoppable character that easily defeats all challenges, accompanied by a sociopathic mindset that puts personal victory ahead of cooperation with the other players at the table. Not to mention a sick notion of trying to "beat" the GM and "win" the game, even at the expense of everyone else's fun.
Powergamers will insist that they're not doing anything wrong, they're just being "efficient" and "successful"--the same sort of excuses you hear from evil players trying to pretend their characters aren't evil.
I put exploiting loopholes to be beyond "power gaming" and entering the realm of "cheating".
It really bugs me when a player creates a character and the result is clearly a broken build.
I expect my players to collaborate with me, not to try to "beat" me.
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I'm gonna make a math formula for this:
(time spent talking mechanics) + {time spent gushing about how badass their char build is)/(time spend actually roleplaying - time spent arguing with gm that their character isn't broken)= power gaming quotient
I'm gonna make a math formula for this:
(time spent talking mechanics) + {time spent gushing about how badass their char build is)/(time spend actually roleplaying - time spent arguing with gm that their character isn't broken)= power gaming quotient
The only problem with this is that some players I know would generate a mathematical singularity or DIV/0 error if you put it in a spreadsheet...
Damn, you're right. Maybe I should make a new formula that isn't division based using the same or similar variables. Back to the chalkboard!
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Power Gaming is when you put your personal character build above the fun of the rest of the group, generally designing for one outcome and creating something that makes the game less enjoyable for everyone else involved.
It varies from group to group and GM to GM. Some groups live for the math and don't care about things making particular sense. Power gaming in that group might be less of a problem than making the group have to do "boring" roll play.
Some groups believe integration of concept is important, and so selecting concepts that are jarring to the setting are...well...jarring to the setting.
Other groups believe in teamwork over individual success.
In short, if people in your group say you are a power gamer, you probably are, for that group. And if you put your personally fun over the group, that also makes you kind of a selfish jerk.
Powergaming is a common problem whose existence is steadfastly denied by people guilty of powergaming themselves.
It consists of seeking out and exploiting loopholes in the rules to build an unstoppable character that easily defeats all challenges, accompanied by a sociopathic mindset that puts personal victory ahead of cooperation with the other players at the table. Not to mention a sick notion of trying to "beat" the GM and "win" the game, even at the expense of everyone else's fun.
Powergamers will insist that they're not doing anything wrong, they're just being "efficient" and "successful"--the same sort of excuses you hear from evil players trying to pretend their characters aren't evil.
Well said Calybos!
My answer, similar to Ciretose's, is that power gaming is not when one creates an effective character, but when one optimizes his character to the point that he far outshines everyone else, creating a non-win scenario where the enemies appropriate for the PGamer are too powerful for the rest of the group to touch, or they're appropriate for the rest of the party, but they never get a chance because the PGamer shuts it down in a few rounds.
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Power gaming is when the player can tell you his character's average damage output per round, but not where said character comes from.
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Ha! I like that one Ruski.
"My char has these abilities!
And these magic items!
And look at those ability scores, I rolled them all legitimately!"
"Yes, but who is your character?" said the annoyed dm.
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Power gaming is when the player can tell you his character's average damage output per round, but not where said character comes from.
That would make me incredibly bothered.
Power Gaming:
Power gaming is a subset of optimizing. Specifically those with a lot of system mastery. They have the ability to squeeze a lot more effectiveness from a build than most people can. And that is where the line gets fuzzy. Where is the line between optimizer and power gamer? It largely depends on the group you play with, more skilled players placing that bar higher than casual players or non-optimizers would.
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Hama, I'll have to respectfully disagree.
My current family night D&D (3.5) is playing in a high powered game in which the GM encourages power gaming. We're all having fun with it.
However, I'm finding it a little difficult at the moment, and can't help but think I could be better in some way. I have a thread here that gives some info, and asks for help optimizing my character.
Low magic is far far better, and less crunchy, but many don't give it the time of day, since it is counter to the crunchy tendency of pf (with some blame laying at 3.5).
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Hama, I'll have to respectfully disagree.
My current family night D&D (3.5) is playing in a high powered game in which the GM encourages power gaming. We're all having fun with it.
However, I'm finding it a little difficult at the moment, and can't help but think I could be better in some way. I have a thread here that gives some info, and asks for help optimizing my character.
I said that it becomes powergaming when everyone at the table stops having fun. Meaning that the character blows through encounters with ease, not letting others shine. If you're all making ridiculously overpowered characters (like i sometimes do when a bunch of us get together), then it isn't powergaming. You're not doing it to the detriment of everyone elses fun.
A powerful build without RP substance or backstory.
I said that it becomes powergaming when everyone at the table stops having fun. Meaning that the character blows through encounters with ease, not letting others shine. If you're all making ridiculously overpowered characters (like i sometimes do when a bunch of us get together), then it isn't powergaming. You're not doing it to the detriment of everyone elses fun.Hama, I'll have to respectfully disagree.
My current family night D&D (3.5) is playing in a high powered game in which the GM encourages power gaming. We're all having fun with it.
However, I'm finding it a little difficult at the moment, and can't help but think I could be better in some way. I have a thread here that gives some info, and asks for help optimizing my character.
I see your point. In that case, happy gaming! =)
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Low magic is far far better, and less crunchy, but many don't give it the time of day, since it is counter to the crunchy tendency of pf (with some blame laying at 3.5).
It is better for you, and it requires them to tweak the system which they may not have the time or ability to do.
With that aside I would like to run such a game oneday, but it would likely not go past level 13. But I need to figure out how to write improvements into the characters without so many magic items. I am not worried too much about a lack of casters. I could just have plots that dont requires things like teleport.
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Power gaming is a playstyle. It means that you are designing your character in a manner to attempt to dominate the game. The more powerful your character is, and the easier it is to handle the challenges of the game, the more satisfied a power gamer is. By necessity, Power Gamers are channeled into a mere handful of the 'most effective' builds if they are serious about their style. Tropes would include Uber Charger and God Mage. Such builds can be over-the-top effective at their roles and have glaring holes otherwise, as long as they are so effective at their one trick that it doesn't matter if they aren't good at other things.
Power Gamers can make things difficult for others because they are so dominating. what is a hard fight for others is easy for a Power Gamer, and so they tend to become bored as they look for challenges. Unfortunately, things that challenge the Power Gamer tend to wipe other play styles.
PFS recently had an article about the final module in season 4. There's an option to 'play up' for the final module, to satisfy all those gamers out there baying for a real challenge for their people. Power Gamers tend to enjoy playing up, as it gets them faster, stronger, and probably have the general opinion that most modules and AP's are not that hard to people who actually know the rules.
OPTIMIZING is 'build style'. Optimizing is making sure to emphasize your strengths and cover your weaknesses. Optimizing does not necessarily mean you are building a 'dominant' character. Optimizing a rogue is not the same as Power Gaming with a rogue (which would be difficult). Optimizers try to make the very best with the tools they have available. The contrast with Power Gamers is the focus on the 'best build of all builds' for the Power Gamer, while the Optimizer tends to focus 'best build for this purpose with these limits'.
Contrast Optimizer vs Power Gamer: An optimizer will play a direct damage mage, and build an extremely effective dealer of direct damage (the PF Blaster Mage build is optimizing). The Power Gamer will not play a direct damage build unless he has to, because a God Mage is a more dominant build.
Power Gamers are all optimizers, but optimizers come in all play styles.
Munchkins are Power Gamers who have gone bad. They want to dominate the game, and they don't care if they stay in the rules as they do so. They'll bend the rules as far as they can go, and beyond, look for exploits and loopholes as a matter of course, and are generally so focused on 'winning the game' that they make the game lousy for the rest of the players with all their focus on me-me-me.
Contrasting: The Optimizer will build a great direct damage mage. The Power Gamer will build a God Mage, and play that way. The Munchkin will attempt to build a Twice-Betrayer of Shar, and get REALLY upset if little things like 'history', 'background' and 'setting continuity' get in the way of his rules abuse. He'll exploit early entry loopholes to get into PrC's, interpret feats and spells to make them nigh unstoppable, and aim to get combos that guarantee one-shot kills and the like. And they'll only use the very best and most unstoppable spells on their way to trampling over the ruins of the game.
And they tend to get really pissed if it's done back to them, or their favorite loopholes are house-ruled away.
==Aelryinth
Low magic is far far better, and less crunchy, but many don't give it the time of day, since it is counter to the crunchy tendency of pf (with some blame laying at 3.5).It is better for you, and it requires them to tweak the system which they may not have the time or ability to do.
With that aside I would like to run such a game oneday, but it would likely not go past level 13. But I need to figure out how to write improvements into the characters without so many magic items. I am not worried too much about a lack of casters. I could just have plots that dont requires things like teleport.
There is less tweaking than you might think. Very little to change or edit at low levels, at intermediate levels they won't have all their body slots filled, so they won't be on that many item bonuses.
Keep an eye on CR and capabilities of enemies, and whether the players can actually take them, and you'll be fine. Low magic isn't transgressive or hard to pull off.
Power gaming is a playstyle. It means that you are designing your character in a manner to attempt to dominate the game. The more powerful your character is, and the easier it is to handle the challenges of the game, the more satisfied a power gamer is. By necessity, Power Gamers are channeled into a mere handful of the 'most effective' builds if they are serious about their style. Tropes would include Uber Charger and God Mage. Such builds can be over-the-top effective at their roles and have glaring holes otherwise, as long as they are so effective at their one trick that it doesn't matter if they aren't good at other things.
Power Gamers can make things difficult for others because they are so dominating. what is a hard fight for others is easy for a Power Gamer, and so they tend to become bored as they look for challenges. Unfortunately, things that challenge the Power Gamer tend to wipe other play styles.
PFS recently had an article about the final module in season 4. There's an option to 'play up' for the final module, to satisfy all those gamers out there baying for a real challenge for their people. Power Gamers tend to enjoy playing up, as it gets them faster, stronger, and probably have the general opinion that most modules and AP's are not that hard to people who actually know the rules.
OPTIMIZING is 'build style'. Optimizing is making sure to emphasize your strengths and cover your weaknesses. Optimizing does not necessarily mean you are building a 'dominant' character. Optimizing a rogue is not the same as Power Gaming with a rogue (which would be difficult). Optimizers try to make the very best with the tools they have available. The contrast with Power Gamers is the focus on the 'best build of all builds' for the Power Gamer, while the Optimizer tends to focus 'best build for this purpose with these limits'.
Contrast Optimizer vs Power Gamer: An optimizer will play a direct damage mage, and build an extremely effective dealer of direct damage (the PF Blaster Mage build is...
You are a wise sage on power gaming!
Did my post from earlier get deleted or did it just not send?
To me, power gaming is when players min-max their character. That is, minimize combat penalties (typically by using charisma as a dump-stat) while analyzing and maximizing feat and weapon combinations to get the best attack/most damage possible. See the DPR Olympics thread for examples of power gaming.
That said, I don't think power gaming is inherently bad, as long as that is the goal everyone agrees on before play starts. Otherwise, if only 1 or 2 people are doing it, it is disruptive to the group.
The Sargavan game I ran, I said make sure your character can actually fight and be effective in combat, there are a lot of enemies; but don't dump charisma, have at least one good social skill.
One player didn't follow the advice, and had trouble. Turns out negotiation, haggling, lying and threatening are important in and beyond Sargava.
Personally I think if you don't want people to dump stats you should up the PB and forbid stats under 10 before racials, or give an array.
Doesn't matter who you are, you're gonna want a good character, and with lower PBs you're very much encouraged to dump by the system itself.
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Personally I think if you don't want people to dump stats you should up the PB and forbid stats under 10 before racials, or give an array.
Doesn't matter who you are, you're gonna want a good character, and with lower PBs you're very much encouraged to dump by the system itself.
Yeah I keep hearing this but we somehow keep playing with 15 pt buy. Current group has a paladin and monk. No stats at 7 for anyone.