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@ the op to me a power game is someone who makes choices about his character purely on what offers the best advantages via the game mechanics and not for flavor of the character
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My personal definition of powergaming, which many will probably hate me for:
When you looked at the numbers to help make your decisions, instead of going by descriptions alone and taking whatever numbers they gave you.
My personal definition of powergaming, which many will probably hate me for:
When you looked at the numbers to help make your decisions, instead of going by descriptions alone and taking whatever numbers they gave you.
I agree (no hate), and it fits with Tony Gent's definition as well. The reveal that comes with someone bragging about their char's numbers and abilities, and nothing else, is quite telling. They may throw the off-hand, oh "I care about roleplaying and the story as well", but then spend many minutes talking about stats and special abilities and the potential gamebreaking build they made. They are betrayed with their own words.
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Good Eris, save me. An enlarged barbarian is OP.
...
I'm not sure if it's funny or sad. I'm out of this.
Yes, a level 2 barbarian is OP if they are doing 26+ damage every swing. That is one shotting a CR 3, which is meant to provide some challenge to a party of level 2s.
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It is providing challenge. It's expending a potion or spell slot on enlarge person. You can only do that so many times a day.
It's also utterly useless against some CR 3's.
Yes, a level 2 barbarian is OP if they are doing 26+ damage every swing.
Well yeah, but this is only ten swings per potion, maybe twenty per spell slot.
take a fused Aegis with a greatsword and 20 strength before fusion
2d6 base
+9 strength bonus
+3 improved damage customization
+3 power attack
+1 psionic weapons customization
all it requires is the medium armor form with psionic weapons customization
it deals 2d6+16, bypasses Dr/magic and counts as ghost touch with any weapon you please
and all you need is a 20 strength
the medium armor psychic armor form which provides brawn and improved damage for free
the psionic weapons customization, which treats any nonmagic weapon as a +1 weapon and any non ghost touch weapon as a ghost touch weapon
brawn adds +2 strength, improved damage adds 3 points of damage
you have a to hit of +7 for 2d6+16
yes, with psionics, you can have an extremely fragile first level character that deals an average of 23 damage at will at 1st level.
the build is a 1 trick pony though
Oh I forgot about Power Attack.
So my 26 Str (Rage + Enlarge Person) Barbarian is dealing 3d6+15, not 3d6+12.
So there's an average of 25 damage.
No, not quite 26, but there's still no cheese involved.
Basically, this whole discussion is a load of steaming b@~$&%&&.
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Power gaming: making a better character than me.
Power gaming: making a character that blitzes through what they are meant to be fighting, and totally outshines non power gaming characters. I.E. the mightiest stack of numbers around.
Power gaming: making a character that blitzes through what they are meant to be fighting, and totally outshines non power gaming characters. I.E. the mightiest stack of numbers around.
So:
-Taking the spells Color Spray or Sleep in the early levels is "power gaming"
-Playing a Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger (especially vs Favored Enemy), or Paladin (especially vs a Smite target) who commit the unspeakable sin of letting someone cast buffs on them is "power gaming".
-Getting a crit it "power gaming".
-Making a character who TRIPS THINGS in the early level is power gaming.
Basically, making a character who can do damn near ANYTHING in the early levels is "power gaming".
Good to know what your definition is.
Everybody, hark, Loyalist has show us the way. Deliberately cripple your characters so that they may allow for the Most High Holy "Roleplaying" to occur without silly things like game mechanics and logic to get in the way (because why in the hell would someone go on a mission to kill goblins, orcs, giants, and demons if his only talent was to dual wield frying pans that slap enemies with about as much force as the french toast inside of them?).
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No, sleep is not powergaming and you know it. Don't try to pretend the stat juggernauts aren't real.
Crits are rare and allow quick ganking or quick player killing, they always have, but they are also (x3 to x4 especially) not a sure thing. Consistently doing crit damage (and above what the party can crit for) is powergaming. Hence my stance on 26+ at level 2. Nothing can take it, soak it, unless the dm starts to go up and up the CR table, or ganks the player before they can get it off.
There must be balance. As a dm that includes having the players be balanced for what they might face, and not OP compared to the monsters and the other non power gaming players. I know I know, this is against the power gaming logic pushed so hard through computer games and DPs builds, but it is important to remember we aren't playing a computer game here. Tipping it a bit back to defence over offence is a good idea for survival and making every battle a damage rush is limiting (after you chase that for a few characters, you can ask what else have you done?). I love tripping btw, and weapon locking, grappling/grabbing. Take it a moment away from the damage, and make it about who is actually controlling the fight and not just exploding an enemy in a hail of look at modifiers or that pile of dice. A lot of players rush in this direction though, I wonder why they are so desperate to win so easily.
26+ at level 2 for every hit, is a bit excessive. Everybody be cool.
No, sleep is not powergaming and you know it.
Yes, I know it, but according to YOUR definition, it is.
Consistently doing crit damage (and above what the party can crit for) is powergaming.
Add "Taking Improved Critical on any 18-20 weapon" to the list.
:rolleyes:
Hence my stance on 26+ at level 2. Nothing can take it, soak it, unless the dm starts to go up and up the CR table, or ganks the player before they can get it off.
And yet, it's something that is INSANELY EASY TO DO, with no power gaming required. All it requires you to do is not directly gimp your character.
Which is why your definition is beyond idiotic.
To you, power gaming is making ANY SORT OF DECENT CHOICE.
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Sleep flat out doesn't work on a lot of things. Hardly op.
I repeat, a lot of players, young players especially rush in this direction of massive mods, I wonder why they are so desperate to win so easily.
Keep calm man, avoid the insults at a different player and dm. You don't see the power gaming, clearly.
A note on the damage build. By pushing 20 str right out of the game, you are, especially for point buy, pushing a char that is all about the damage. Not many points left for other things champ. Thus you are making a char that risks being all about the damage.
Which is a pretty flat concept. A snail does tremendous damage to a garden (so OP lol), but it doesn't make a good character with depth if it is just about the damage. Take back the str a bit, look at what else you can make the char do without being able to one hit a CR 3. Sobre suggestions Rynjin.
Note: OP snail:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/giant-snail-destroyed-after-b eing-found-in-brisbane-container-yard/story-e6freoof-1226595053371
You make the mistake of thinking a character can't be a damage beast and have depth at the same time.
Just because my Barbarian can hit 250+ damage a round doesn't mean I can't play him with character. Hell, I can do that by spending traits and skill points on interesting things (said Barbarian speaks 14 languages and can decipher most documents he cares to), not to mention, I dunno, ACTUALLY ROLEPLAYING a character.
And even with 18 Str you're doing a major percentage of that damage and have a lot of points leftover as well.
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Well if you have 20 str at level 2, what are the rest of your abilities like? If you are in love with the damage, and being a damage-dealer, where is the rest of the character?
Less power gaming is good all round.
250? What level is he?
3?
>:}
Well if you have 20 str at level 2, what are the rest of your abilities like?
I usually don't go 20 at 1st, since I like having skills and such. IMO it's actually LESS optimal/"power gamey" to stack one ability score to the detriment of ALL others. Depends on the PB, but if I wanted a 20 at 1st level with 20 PB (haven't played lower yet), I'd probably take a race that gave +2 to two scores.
But for a Human, it'd be an array like this-ish, maybe:
Str: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 11
Cha: 7
Not too horribly rounded I don't think, since as a Human you have an equivalent Int of 12 for skill points. Best for a Fighter (Heavy armor) or Barbarian (who gives a s+!+ about taking hits, amirite?).
My usual array for big 2H users is more like:
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
I've never been terribly interested in Cha based skills for most beatsticks I play, I prefer skills like Survival, Perception, and then some off the wall one that sounds fun to play with (Linguistics for this current one, my last Monk had Sense Motive out the ass, and so on).
250? What level is he?
3?
>:}
Nah, 12.
If you are in love with the damage, and being a damage-dealer, where is the rest of the character?
In the RP and other skills you bring to the table. I'll admit, I cheated a bit with this char. He's an Orc.
So his stats looked something like (before racials and leveling and items):
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
And currently have:
Str: 26
Dex: 12
Con: 18
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 5
However, the great part is...2H builds require very few Feats. So in addition to being the damage guy (2d6+34 a swing), he's also the trap guy (Trap Wrecker is a cool Feat. Spell Sunder helps.), and Linguist (as mentioned before, he knows 14 languages).
And I play the part well, I think. He's slightly less intelligent than normal, but very knowledgeable in his field of interest (language), so he tends to have great sentence structure and diction (which changes in combat to a more colloquial sort of speak), but he's not too good at actually figuring out things, just usually going for the "Smashing it should work, right?" path.
The thing is, what you call "power gaming" (and what I tend to call optimizing, as a separate concept) tends to allow for builds that are both powerful AND versatile.
Therefore:
Less power gaming is good all round.
I disagree completely. I think if everyone "power games" it makes for more well rounded, interesting, and yes more POWERFUL parties.
The part that pisses me off is not that you disagree, it's that you DISDAIN this style of play, by the way.
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"Cheating"... If you cheat to get more damage, you have chosen your path.
A charisma of 5, your character must get into a lot of fights. Good thing he has all that damage.
So have you heard of mix maxing?
"Cheating"... If you cheat to get more damage, you have chosen your path.
That was a joke. It's not really cheating...just picking a race.
That's like saying it's actually, seriously cheating to pick an Elf for your Wizard.
A charisma of 5, your character must get into a lot of fights.
Not any he doesn't have to. He's not charismatic, but he's also not a drooling moron. He knows when to keep his mouth shut.
Good thing he has all that damage.
The rest of the party seems to think so, since my being able to charge in and keep enemies' attention while knocking them around has saved their asses quite a few times since I joined the game.
So have you heard of mix maxing?
Nope.
I've heard of min-maxing though. I don't see what's wrong with it. You're giving yourself certain weaknesses you need to work around in exchange for being good at what you want to be good at.
If you dump too many stats, you'll end up with a crippled character.
I mean, I could have gone with something stupid like:
Str: 22
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 5
Wis: 5
Cha: 5
At 1st level, and had no meaningful capability to interact with people beyond "Thog smash" and no way to avoid being dominated by any half-baked Sorcerer, but that would have been bad both from an optimization standpoint AND an RP one.
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Well if you have 20 str at level 2, what are the rest of your abilities like? If you are in love with the damage, and being a damage-dealer, where is the rest of the character?
Less power gaming is good all round.
I'm still amused that you're sitting in a Chucky Cheese's, trying to tell everyone that "Less loud games and joyful screaming is good all around."
Again, I actually agree with you, but you're fighting your environment.
"Cheating"... If you cheat to get more damage, you have chosen your path.That was a joke. It's not really cheating...just picking a race.
That's like saying it's actually, seriously cheating to pick an Elf for your Wizard.
A charisma of 5, your character must get into a lot of fights.Not any he doesn't have to. He's not charismatic, but he's also not a drooling moron. He knows when to keep his mouth shut.
Good thing he has all that damage.The rest of the party seems to think so, since my being able to charge in and keep enemies' attention while knocking them around has saved their asses quite a few times since I joined the game.
So have you heard of mix maxing?Nope.
I've heard of min-maxing though. I don't see what's wrong with it. You're giving yourself certain weaknesses you need to work around in exchange for being good at what you want to be good at.
If you dump too many stats, you'll end up with a crippled character.
I mean, I could have gone with something stupid like:
Str: 22
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 5
Wis: 5
Cha: 5At 1st level, and had no meaningful capability to interact with people beyond "Thog smash" and no way to avoid being dominated by any half-baked Sorcerer, but that would have been bad both from an optimization standpoint AND an RP one.
So he has five charisma, but never has to make a social check, and it doesn't negatively impact him in any way? He gets by not talking to or persuading anyone?
Well if you have 20 str at level 2, what are the rest of your abilities like? If you are in love with the damage, and being a damage-dealer, where is the rest of the character?
Less power gaming is good all round.
I'm still amused that you're sitting in a Chucky Cheese's, trying to tell everyone that "Less loud games and joyful screaming is good all around."
Again, I actually agree with you, but you're fighting your environment.
I wouldn't go so far. PF players aren't just a bunch of power gamers. There is more to them than that.
Basically I live and hope. :D
Well if you have 20 str at level 2, what are the rest of your abilities like? If you are in love with the damage, and being a damage-dealer, where is the rest of the character?
Less power gaming is good all round.
I'm still amused that you're sitting in a Chucky Cheese's, trying to tell everyone that "Less loud games and joyful screaming is good all around."
Again, I actually agree with you, but you're fighting your environment.
I wouldn't go so far. PF players aren't just a bunch of power gamers. There is more to them than that.
Basically I live and hope. :D
most of the PF players are former 3.5 players, and 3.5 was the power gamers edition.
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That is a simplification. Not everyone went the power gaming route, or stuck on it for that long, at least as I experienced it. Some got tired of magic marts and easy wins. There were all manner of settings too, some of which pushed PG, some which did not (Ravenloft, Dark Sun, adventures set in the middle of nowhere with low resources and high danger).
Basic classes, avoiding op feats and dodgy prestige classes was a far cry from powergaming.
A simplification. Not everyone went the power gaming route, or stuck on it for that long, at least as I experienced it. Some got tired of magic marts and easy wins. There were all manner of settings too, some of which pushed PG, some which did not (Ravenloft, Dark Sun, adventures set in the middle of nowhere with low resources and high danger).
Basic classes, avoiding op feats and dodgy prestige classes was a far cry from powergaming.
3.5
a wizard didn't need any of the following to be overpowered
strategic race choice
feats
prestige classes
the spell compendium
the core wizard spells were more broken than any other power
in fact, the splatbooks, allowed martials to barely keep up with a single aspect of the favored soul, psionic warrior, and duskblade via means of dipping, better feat synergies, and prestige classes
thing is, wizard, cleric, druid, artificer, erudite, and archivist were still top tier
even without prestige classes, feats, or whatever
all low resources did, was cripple martials more than the minor inconvenience to casters.
casters have spells to compensate wealth
martials needed magic mart to keep up.
d4 hit die, two weak saves.
The talk of the op wizard, they died like flies if not protected by the party. Eaten by traps, grappled and made useless, crushed by melee threats that got close, shot/ambushed quickly to death, tripped and then hacked while crawling around. Wizards were a compliment to a party, but really weak for a long time vs simple solutions (orc throws javelin, 1st level wizard dies. I know, it happened to my character!).
Defend the glass cannon!
All the past talk of the 15 minute work day. It was about wizards wanting to camp and get their spells back because they were only so useful for so long. Ack, my highest level spells are gone, I am no longer so crash hot. I must rest so I can be cool again... briefly cool.
Low magic, they have trouble covering their weaknesses. This gets a bit off topic though.
d4 hit die, two weak saves.
The talk of the op wizard, they died like flies if not protected by the party. Eaten by traps, grappled and made useless, crushed by melee threats that got close, shot/ambushed quickly to death, tripped and then hacked while crawling around. Wizards were a compliment to a party, but really weak for a long time vs simple solutions (orc throws javelin, 1st level wizard dies. I know, it happened to my character!).
Defend the glass cannon!
Low magic, they have trouble covering their weaknesses. This gets a bit off topic though.
a wizard wasn't much worse off than a rogue
rogue and bard only had a d6, which was a single 1 HP per level above d4
rogue was at higher risk due to traps
plus concentration was so easy to pump, that after a while, a DC25+spell level concentration check wasn't hard to make, making the casting of spells while grappled rather easy. just not at low levels.
traps were also a joke in 3.5
they could kill a low level wizard who was unprepared
but they were more likely to kill the rogue trying to disable them
plus wizards at least had effects that
provide total concealment making them untargetable
mess up terrain making approaching them more difficult
and effects that negated attacks
most wizards had constitution as their second highest stat
Well if you have 20 str at level 2, what are the rest of your abilities like? If you are in love with the damage, and being a damage-dealer, where is the rest of the character?
Less power gaming is good all round.
I'm still amused that you're sitting in a Chucky Cheese's, trying to tell everyone that "Less loud games and joyful screaming is good all around."
Again, I actually agree with you, but you're fighting your environment.
I wouldn't go so far. PF players aren't just a bunch of power gamers. There is more to them than that.
Basically I live and hope. :D
Er, flawed analogy. I was pointing to the ruleset rather than the players. Players tend to simply do what their environment motivates them to do.
When a single lucky hit can kill a low-level PC, it's no wonder that lots of players put a bit of attention into doing the same to their enemies, and making themselves hard to hit. When spells can kill or completely neutralize any PC, it's no wonder that many players spend a bit of time jacking their saves. And, if they're casters, looking for the best spells to neutralize enemies.
Sure, players can be all "I'll just build my PC with whatever stuff looks cool and make sure my dpr is below the power gamer standard in my head," but the system heavily rewards them for doing the opposite. After all, nobody can role play a dead character.
(Well, there's that undead campaign setting, but you know what I mean...)
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Power gaming is a matter of degree, not kind.
Here is my definition of power gaming:
Power gaming != optimization
Power gaming is when a competent character isn't good enough. It's where your character has to be the theoretical BEST at his role. A power gamer would consider the rogue weak, because X, Y, and Z class-archetypes do his job better, even though those classes may never appear in the party or the game. Now it is not power gaming to consider the rogue weak when compared to the monsters and encounters. That would be a competency check. Making competent characters is not power gaming.
Power gaming != specialization
Power gaming is when being good at something isn't good enough. Being a gnome illusion focused sorcerer that takes spell focus and greater spell focus as her first two feats is not power gaming. Power gaming is when you want to make a character that is the theoretical BEST at something. Optimizing your specialization isn't power gaming, until you take it to the point that you intentionally make a character so narrowly focused that they can barely dress themselves in the morning, but you are the BEST at something than theoretical builds that don't exist in your game.
To conclude power gaming is not making a good or great character. It is theory crafting breathed life and can a lot of the times create characters that SUCK. Someone can try to power game without being a good optimizer. So they will bring their int dumping monks and snipping focused rogues and giggle about how OP they are doing 1 sneak attack a round or they resentfully talk about how great their monk will be when they get the agile enhancement or a mythic tier. Power gamers can also be good at optimization. You tend to not notice that these players are power gaming until they start stepping on peoples toes. Lets take a blockbuster wizard that spend his skill points getting rogue skills. He's crafted skill boosting items and built himself in such a way that he does more damage per round than the fighter and has higher skill checks than the rogue. Now this theoretical wizard can still do battlefield control and all the other wizard things, while using a wand of dispel magic and SMI to take care of any traps that he finds. This is an example a power gaming while at the same time being a dick. Which brings me to my last point. Power gaming != being a dick. You can power game without being a bad person. You can power game while being a decent role player. Power gaming more has to do with what standard you hold your character to when you plan out its build. If you are comparing yourself to the party and the campaign, then you aren't power gaming. If you are comparing yourself to every build you have every seen on the forums and every possible build you can conceive of when looking at all the rules, then you are power gaming.
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I have an anecdote that describes, if not defines power gaming for me:
Our gunslinger is, in my opinion, a powergamer.
Been playing a VTT for a year. Our party is 9th level. I'm a Ninja. My character has been on the run from her sensei all this time because he tried to force her into performing an assassination, and she balked.
So late one night a team of red mantis assassins breaks into our inn, and begins trying to, you know, assassinate us.
It turns our one of these assassins is my sensei. It turns out he's also an umbral dragon. I recognize him, but he doesn't recognize me because of
Our gunslinger was in a separate part of the inn, and handled 3 mooks by himself.
The three spellcasters took on another good number of mooks as well.
My Ninja was dealing with the BBEG, her Sensei. She was dealing quite a large amount of damage with 6 flanking sneak attacks per round. But, you know, its taking awhile. He's a BBEG, with some resistances and defenses. And a skilled assassin! And a dragon!
Here's where the power gaming comes in:
The whole time I'm fighting my old master, that I have been running from for years, changing towns, changing identity, etc...
The gunslinger is bragging about his damage, and ragging on the rest of us for being slow and incompetent. He took on 3 assassins by himself... and I'm so slow and incompetent that I can't even finish off one target.
He goes on and on about his feats and his skill at maximizing damage... on and on and on...
While I'm trying to have "The Big Reveal" moment with My Old Master. I find out he's an umbral dragon, I find out why the red mantises are after us (unrelated to me, it turns out), and the evil monologue of goals. And I reveal who I am, the student returned to best the Master. The student released from her fears, able to reclaim her true identity and never have to run again. The Old Master's eyes widening with surprise as he finally realize who's bested him.
TL;DR: The personal victory culminating after a year's play...
Walked all over by another player who won't shut up about how his damage is awesome, his kill total is awesome, and how much everyone else sucks in comparison.
I don't care that he's optimized and powerful. Everyone in our party is dealing serious whoopass at this point.
I think like Marthkus said, it's the dick factor.
He *had* to be better than everyone else. He *had* to brag incessantly about it. And he couldn't let another player have one freaking second of triumph without pissing on it.
So there's my definition of powergaming.
I agree with however said that all of these terms greatly differ from when and where you heard them first.
Back then in my part of the world, power-gaming was more a state of mind or a style of play than a way to build characters. It was all about feeling macho with your character, hitting dungeons fast and hard and not overly carefully, and gaining the most treasure/reputation as possible. Bad-assery was a must.
Munchkining was the art of gaining the most of the rules with the least levels or other forms of investment, optimizing your character to whatever was best in that particular system (to the limit of bending the rules), rule-layering your DM to your advantage and whining when things didn't go your way.
Mix-maxing was about specializing your character to the limit of being a one-trick pony if necessary.
Yes, a giant d*** rambling about his damage and superiority without end.
The numbers went to his head.
I agree with however said that all of these terms greatly differ from when and where you heard them first.
Back then in my part of the world, power-gaming was more a state of mind or a style of play than a way to build characters. It was all about feeling macho with your character, hitting dungeons fast and hard and not overly carefully, and gaining the most treasure/reputation as possible. Bad-assery was a must.
Munchkining was the art of gaining the most of the rules with the least levels or other forms of investment, optimizing your character to whatever was best in that particular system (to the limit of bending the rules), rule-layering your DM to your advantage and whining when things didn't go your way.
Mix-maxing was about specializing your character to the limit of being a one-trick pony if necessary.
Mmmm mmm, what is funny is that with all their damage, special ability syncing and crazy saves, pgers are not invincible. Tucker's kobolds is a good dungeon to put them in their place, as is any number of traps combined together into a deathtrap dungeon.
"We charge forward and kill everything!'
"You are minced." Or "You chest bump the sphere of annihilation".
Running in without thought can kill all pcs equally.
Running in without thought can kill all pcs equally.
Indeed it can.
So why would it be more likely to kill the person with the more powerful/better built character?
Well, the dungeons of course have to be adjusted to meet their massive power.
Ha ha ha ha. :''D
Well, the dungeons of course have to be adjusted to meet their massive power.
Ha ha ha ha. :''D
and if you do that, then the non-power-gamed characters in the same group lose their viability.
Well, the dungeons of course have to be adjusted to meet their massive power.
Ha ha ha ha. :''D
Think about what you just wrote for like, half a second.
There's a pretty big flaw there that should be obvious to you.
Power gamers won't have it easy?
:D