Where to start as brand-spanking new DM?

[n0ah]

Hi all,

I've been really interested in D&D and role-playing games for a *very* long time. Only thing is I've never had the friends or a group of people to actually play them with. So I'm finally trying to start a Pathfinder group with some friends.. it's a small group (4 total, including me). I'll be the DM and there will be 3 characters.

Now, I have a copy of the Core Rulebook, the Gamemastery Guide, and I'll be getting the Bestiary sometime next week. For the most part, my friends seem genuinely interested in playing (already a huge win for me) but now I'm struggling with the next step: how to actually start.

My *main* issue right now is this: Do I start with a published adventure or do I make my own?

Following that, if I were to go with a published adventure, do I pick a module or an adventure path? (Not quite sure on the differences, but the way I understand it is that modules are smaller, and easier to digest in one session) Which would be the best beginning module for 3 *totally new* players and one *totally new* DM?

Is it even smart for beginners to go the homebrew route? Eventually I would like to have my own campaign, so I figured why not just start with it?

So if anyone can shed some light on my questions that would be greatly appreciated! <3

-n0ah

[leo1925]

Do you have any experience building a campaign in general? If yes how about building a campaign for any of the 3.0, 3,5 and PF systems?

[ciretose]

Keep it simple. Start at 1st level and don't be afraid to stay at first level for a few sessions as you all get used to the game.

I would recommend starting with a published adventure (RoTRL is a very good one) and go from there. Only buy the first book in the AP, as you may decide to go another direction.

Remember to have fun and don't sweat mistakes. You will notice them more than the players most of the time. Don't get bogged down in the details.

The Beginner box might also be a good idea.

[Kolokotroni]

Step one, read the gamemaster guide. It gives a ton of great advice.

Second as a begginer, I would advise going with published adventures to start. Obviously many first time gms have run their own material, but with the quality of paizo adventures, it really isnt neccessary.

I would start with a module, maybe something like the new Dragons demand, a classic but not often visited theme, the dragon hunt. What better way to get started then to run an advneture where you fight a dragon. Crypt of the ever flame is also a good starting module if you want something shorter.

After that, it would then be time to decide if you want to homebrew, run a series of modules, or pick up an adventure path and go in for the long haul. Get your feet wet then make your choice rather then committing to one or the other before you've gotten a taste for what you like and dont like about dming.

[n0ah]

I haven't had any experience actually building a campaign. Ever.

*BUT* I watch this show called "RollPlay" .. it's a group a friends who stream their D&D sessions so I have plenty of ideas brewing in my noob-ish little brain. They usually play once a week, and they're on week 21 if I'm not mistaken.

So yeah I realize most people will probably tell me to start with modules or other published adventures (and I'm totally fine with that), I just want to get some opinions.

But yeah if you have any recommendations for modules please feel free to share. :)

[thenovalord]

Start 1st level and use published adventure

plenty pdfs available from this site for a few dollars rather than going for a 90 page or more AP chapter, go for 24 page or something easier to handle.

[n0ah]

Another question regarding modules/published stuff..

And I don't mean to change the topic of the thread with this question, so try to keep it concise:

Do you prefer electronic media (PDFs) or physical media (books)?

I am leaning more towards books, only because I feel that the presence of a laptop might cause my players to get distracted with other non-game-related things. The only downside is... more books. -_-. PDFs are very convenient, but since I'm trying to get & keep the attention of the new players I want there to be as few distractions as possible.

[Raymond Gellner]

I recommend starting at 1st level with the module "Crypt of the Everflame" since it is not too long and it is fairly friendly to new gamemasters. It is the first in a three-part series, though you can easily run this as a one-off then go into a different direction.

[DrDeth]

Start at 1st, and do a PF Adenture path. Crighton Boardhurst does soem good ones, too.

Trust me.

[Douglas Muir 406]

I'll add my voice to "start at 1st level", preferably with a short adventure / simple scenario. The Adventure Paths can be great fun, but you may want to wait a bit before jumping in to one of those.

Electronic vs. hard copy: your point about the laptop is well taken. Some DMs ban electronic devices at their tables. This is very much a judgment call and depends on your particular players. Personally I used a laptop regularly and never had a problem. On the other hand, I also like hard copies -- you can add yellow stickies, have three of them open at once, and so forth. Again, it's a judgment call.

Doug M.

[leo1925]

First of all modules do not usually take one session, they take 2 or 3. PFS scenarios are made for a 4 hour session.
Now to APs, i suggest not using one of those made for 3.5 unless you want to be making conversions to the PF system, those made for are Rise of the Runelords*, curse of the crimson thorne, second darkness and legacy of fire, all of the other Paizo AP are made for the pathfinder system.

I also suggest getting either a module or the first book of an AP first instead of building your own campaign, crypt of the everflame** is a very good module for starting pathfinder.

*there is an anniversary edtition of Rise of the Runelords that is converted to the PF system but i don't suggest that because it's one big book instead of 6 small ones.

**crypt of the everflame is the only paizo module that has it's story continue in other modules. Masks of the living god and city of golden death are the sequels (in that order).

[Morgen]

Start simply and take a slow pace. Don't try to have a huge scope for the beginning of the campaign. Shy away from save the world type scenarios and focus more on having fun learning and playing the game with your friends.

Battle some goblins, enjoy learning the rules for buying and selling gear, etc. I'm pretty sure there is a commonly overlooked rules thread somewhere around here.

Feel free to use the slow XP track and learn just what makes a good encounter. Multiple smaller enemies are good, things that use poison or drain ability scores (spiders or shadows for example) are much more dangerous then they might seem.

[Ciaran Barnes]

Draw a 4-5 room dungeon with a combat in each one. Don't worry about doing a good job. The point is to play it through with the party and see where you or they screw up. If they all die then you learn something. Change the encounters and start over. If they thoroughly stomp all the monsters then you've learned something else.

Maybe the first has 4 goblins, and the next one has 2 orcs with spears and 2 goblins with slings. The last room could have a goblin cleric and some skeletons. I know, very uninspiring ideas. You should start simple though.

[n0ah]

Thank you all for your encouragement and great ideas!

I think I will start with Crypt of the Everflame as the first module/adventure.

The whole DM thing for me is mostly a matter of knowing when/where to start, as I know that experience comes with time.

As for the electronic vs. hard copy issue: I think I might just make a ruling that only the DM can have any electronics out on the table during play. I feel as if that's fair enough, since I'm super excited to play Pathfinder, I should be taking it more seriously anyways.

Again, thanks for your opinions! :)

[Kolokotroni]

good luck and happy gaming. Be sure to let us know how it turns out.

[Lincoln Hills]

I've been told Crypt is a good beginning. But here's a helpful addendum: while reading the adventure - and running it - keep a pad of paper handy (or a notepad computer, he added grudgingly) and make notes, however brief, on ideas for spin-offs, sequels or "what ifs" that the adventure is suggesting to you. Don't worry about whether the ideas are good - you'll end up never using 5/6ths of them anyhow, and there's plenty of time to pick and choose later! Just get in the habit, early on, of 'seeing' potential stories.

[n0ah]

Oh believe me, I will. :)

I do have a question regarding the Crypt of the Everflame encounters..

"These orcs are illusory. Whenever they hit or are hit by one of the player characters, they react appropriately, but give that PC a DC 16 Will save to notice that these orcs are not real."

Who rolls the DC 16 Will save? The GM or the player? And does the DM verbally say "Player A make a Will save." Or is it done secretly? The way I understand it is that the GM makes this roll secretly, and then lets the players know the results afterwards?

[Lincoln Hills]

Yes; in this case you roll the save. Helpful note: it can be good to have a record at your fingertips of certain PC stats: flat-footed Armor Class, Fortitude and Will, and Perception and Sense Motive, so that you can make secret rolls. The same chart can be used to make note of conditions that the PCs don't know they have... such as a disease that hasn't really kicked in yet, or a protection from evil because they're in an area that is hallowed and don't know it yet.

[n0ah]

Another nub question:

In the module I see this for one of the NPC's:

OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee dagger +3 (1d4+1/19–20)
Ranged mwk light crossbow +6 (1d8/19–20)

I get the speed part, but the Melee dagger is the part that confuses me... Is the +3 to hit? and then the (1d4+1/19–20) is the damage he does when he crits on a 19 or 20?

Same thing with the crossbow, the +6 is to hit? and the (1d8/19-20) is the damage he does on a crit of 19 or 20?

Am I understanding that correctly?

[Laschoni]

The +3 and +6 are the roll modifiers on an attack roll.

The 1d4+1 and 1d8 are damage rolls on a successful hit.

The 19-20 is a critical threat
If the character were to roll a 19-20 they roll again at the same attack modifier to confirm a critical. If the confirm roll misses the AC the attack still hits but deals normal damage (20s always hit and 1s always fail in matters of Attacks and Saves)

Since no multiplier is listed the critical damage is x2.

[n0ah]

Thanks Laschoni,

I apologize for the noob-ish questions, but can someone help me out again?

In the supply room (area 10) it says that there's a table that has a small pile of items for each PC (depending on their class). According to the wording below,

"
Treasure: Each PC gets one of the following groups of items, based on his class. ... The note attached to each item explains what it is.

Barbarian: a masterwork weapon or a potion of bull’s strength and an oil of magic weapon

Bard: a masterwork weapon or a wand of lesser confusion (10 charges) and a scroll of cat’s grace

Cleric: a masterwork weapon or a wand of cure light wounds (10 charges) and a scroll of lesser restoration ..."

But I can't seem to find the "note" that actually explains what each item does. The masterwork weapons I get, it's all the other stuff. Does anyone know where to find this information?

[Tuffon]

The items should be in the back of the core rule book or in most the cases above in the spell section.

the scrolls, are simply a piece of paper with a spell the player can cast using that paper.

The wands are spells with charges, one use of the spell = 1 charge of the wand.

the spells are in the core rule book , so for the wand of lesser confusion, find the spell lesser confusion in the core rule book. the wand has the ability to cast that spell 10 times.

If that is what you are asking :) cheers

To get everyone used to combat and how things run prior to starting the adventure i would advise you to follow Ciaran Barnes advice above. draw a couple rooms and run a few rounds of combat after you guys make characters just so everyone can get a feel of what to do before you jump into the first real combat scenario.

[Joesi]

I guess it's maybe a bit late to say this, but: I'd highly recommend you start out as a player.

You seem to imply you don't have people to play with (who already know how to play), but I'd say you could try harder. You can search outside your existing friends and look for new friends to do this specific thing with (which should work unless your in a very small town).
Even if you can't do that, or don't want to do that, you should still be able to find PF/3.5e campaigns online— be it in tabletop community forums, or even many non—tabletop-community websites under the general, off-topic, or games forum section.
There's also IRC (and other communication groups/channels), although usually I think people who are there met on a website (or in person/private) first.

Anyway, that aside, you'd have to do lots of reading.

Far and away my favorite way to learn was/is via the D20PFSRD. Things are layed out in an extremely convenient fashion, and you can easily jump to different sections to understand what something's talking about before it's referred to (like an item that's introducd that causes nausea, which you have no idea how it works, you could just click "nausea" and it will take you there)

Some people might disagree and hound me on this, but I'd say you don't need to read much of the Gamemastery Guide at all. The really important parts are on the D20PFSRD (or official Paizo SRD) and/or the core rulebook. It's totally helpful, but lots of it just covers more detailed rules that you may not want to get bogged down in and/or just gives recommendations on how to make an enjoyable campaign, which may sound good, but isn't necessarily as good as it sounds, or entirely necessary. (note: I'm not saying it's not good!)

As a new game master, you can give it a shot without reading too much of the guide, and then over time, you can learn more and more things to help hone your abilities or help campaigns/sessions in other ways. Learning too much all at once is a lot of work for starters, secondly you're probably going to have to re-learn most of it anyway because the brain can only hold so much information at one time. That, plus the best way to learn is by application/practice, and you can't easily practice everything at once.

Its probably best to follow a module or some other pre-made thing for a new GM, although I wouldn't say it's necessary. After you run or complete a module or two, you would certainly be even more prepared to make your own.

If you aren't following a pre-made story (module), you can skip exp and just level people whenever you want (generally everyone at once unless people came in at different times). You can also skip wealth-by-level(WBL) and loot rolling and give characters whatever you want to give them whenever you want. Obviously if you like the idea of recording experience and planning-out/rolling monster treasure you can, but while it sounds nice, it's a lot of work for a GM to do and may slow down a game especially if other things are slowing it down already (such as being iffy on other rules due to being new).
It's not as much work when it's in a module already though.

laschoni wrote:

If the character were to roll a 19-20 they roll again at the same attack modifier to confirm a critical. If the confirm roll misses the AC the attack still hits but deals normal damage (20s always hit and 1s always fail in matters of Attacks and Saves)

The attack only auto-hits on a 20 (like you said), even if it threats, such as on a 19. Against a character with high-enough AC, 19s don't hit even if threat range is 15-20. You wouldn't even roll a confirmation roll if it misses since there's no point.

[DMFrank]

I use a prep sheet and the "prd"-link on the paizo.com right hand side as a Pathfinder google.

For this game everyone needs a mentor, or whatever, new players if they live to get to the table of swag, might not know to take the oil of magic weapon or any parcel so you should look up what the items do way before they get there. You should also read ahead to the final fight to predict the best tactical point to apply an oil or use a scroll.

Know that Pathfinder Society is different from a regular game . We call it "Legacy" when the DM gives you more player options like the Rich Parent trait. You should know the difference by reading the Guide to Society play and the Additional resources. Be warned there is a landslide of information and the Crypt of Everflame is a Society game. If you run it with Legacy rules your players will miss out on 3 experience points (one level).

If you guys are in a rural area with no stores or colleges, then you might have to travel, but good luck anyways.

[DMFrank]

* paizo.com left hand side of links after you click on the Pathfinder Society icon on the homepage.

-Apologies

[Johs]

This is my story:

When I was a brand spanking new DM, I didn't know what to do. So I made the SIMPLEST campaign I could possibly imagine.

Bandits grab a townsperson and retreat to a fort.

Players, you can (just a mild suggestion) go save said person. But do WHATEVER YOU WANT.

Go. That's all I bothered doing, because I was new, and I wanted to learn 'off the cuff' gming. My players actually debated, because the rogue didn't wanna get killed, and ended up CLIMBING into a tree, and literally abandoning the party / campaign.

It was HILLARIOUS, the rest of the party went and had a hell of a time infiltrating and fighting in the fort. The rogue eventually saw fire and said "okay, at this point I'll go and see if I can help..." he was about 1/4 mile away in the tree.

At the end of the day, it was one of the best experiences in DnD I've ever had in my life. The players felt completely free, and if they "ruined my campaign" it was okay, because I was new, there was nothing to ruin since I didn't invest much into the story and was ready to adjust, and the players did the work to make it fun.

Do NOT complicate things on your first run. Don't get a module, don't make a complex story, don't give yourself more things to juggle. Just get comfortable first.

[n0ah]

I was considering doing something like that Johs, but then I started thinking about how combat would work (with minis, and the grid mat and all that jazz).

Personally, I don't really like the thought of using a grid-mat or minis for combat, as I feel it turns the roleplaying game into more of a board game, thus making it more mechanical. That probably sounds stupid to most of you, but I kinda don't want to play out the combat that way. But for the interest of my players I'm going to anyways.

I already read through the entire Crypt of the Everflame module and I absolutely loved it. (I am soooo freaking excited to try it out!)

But after reading what you said about not even starting with a module, I'm beginning to have second thoughts. =/

[LazarX]

I have an even better recommendation.

Start with the two free RPG day modules. We Be Goblins, and the sequel, both of which can be downloaded free here. This way you and your players get to kick the training wheels with some fun goofy temporary characters and you get your first chops in.

You can even run them for PFS chronicles that can be applied to PFS characters, the details are in the package.

[ub3r_n3rd]

I agree with LazarX about trying out the We Be Goblins and We Be Goblins Too. I've hyperlinked them for you to gain faster access. Just download the free PDF's and look them over.

Even though I'm an experienced gamer, I've played through We Be Goblins with a few friends on a day where our normal session couldn't happen and just had a blast with it.

Oh and check out a few more of the Paizo Free RPG modules here and the whole list of free stuff is here.

[LazarX]

ub3r_n3rd wrote:

I agree with LazarX about trying out the We Be Goblins and We Be Goblins Too. I've hyperlinked them for you to gain faster access. Just download the free PDF's and look them over.

Even though I'm an experienced gamer, I've played through We Be Goblins with a few friends on a day where our normal session couldn't happen and just had a blast with it.

You can't have a soul if you don't have fun with goblins. In fact the more experienced the player, the more fun they usually had.

We had one player at Dexcon who introduced his aunt and uncle who probably had a combined age of 140 or so. to gaming with the sequel which was their very first time at a gaming table. Those two practically stole the table with their antics.

[n0ah]

Thanks! I'll definitely check those out!

I don't know if I'll start with them as our very first one though, only because I don't want to deter my friends from the game by forcing them to play goblins, ya know? I've been sorta hyping this game (D&D and Pathfinder in general) for a long time now, so to telling them that they *have* to be goblins would be a tiny bit unfair to them after all the blabbering I've done about the game, hahah.

I will seriously look into it though and get their opinions on it. :)

[LazarX]

n0ah wrote:

Thanks! I'll definitely check those out!

I don't know if I'll start with them as our very first one though, only because I don't want to deter my friends from the game by forcing them to play goblins, ya know? I've been sorta hyping this game (D&D and Pathfinder in general) for a long time now, so to telling them that they *have* to be goblins would be a tiny bit unfair to them after all the blabbering I've done about the game, hahah.

I will seriously look into it though and get their opinions on it. :)

It's all about presentation. Instead of looking at this as "forcing" them to play goblins, look at this as "Hey guys, how about trying something different as one-off? You get to play some wickedly funny evil characters that you'll only use that one time, so no long term consequences there."

As a DM, your job is not to try to support every choice, but to preserve an illusion of freedom with the limited amount of choices you can give them.

[Morgen]

The Thornkeep book is a great sand box to play in as well. Just a pretty detailed town and some dungeon levels in the River Kingdoms which are a great place for adventurers to be hanging out. It is quite a lot of fun to let your players use as a staging ground for a lot of types of adventures.

You can start with a module or not, it is totally up to you. Some folks do better free forming and others do better with something like that. Just don't be afraid to toss things out that you don't like or don't work for your game from any module you play.

I suggest giving the battle map a try at least once in a while to see how you lie what it does before writing it off. It simplifies a lot of the ranges and tactics your players might be curious about. You don't have to use it all the time but it is extremely useful.

[ub3r_n3rd]

The goblins are seriously fun to play for anyone. My table was cracking up the whole time too with our own antics.

If your friends don't want to do the goblins, try out some of the other level 1 adventures I linked to you. They can't hurt as they are free as well and will give them a taste of pathfinder and you a taste of the GM'ing.

Maybe I didn't catch it in my reading of this thread, but if no one else has suggest it, I highly suggest getting the Pathfinder Beginner Box. It's a scaled down version of the game that allows all of you to learn the rules, classes, and races a little easier and it will help you learn to GM.

[Enocelot]

Noah,

I think its pretty interesting that you are watching RollPlay and using that to gain experience that you`ll be using to start your own campaign.

I truly wonder why Paizo doesn`t run something similar on this site either showcasing new products or running a long term Golarion campaign like a sort of TV series....

For those of you interested in seeing what I mean go to you tube ItmeJP and watch a few sessions. I`m addicted to the stuff.

[Auxmaulous]

n0ah wrote:

Thanks! I'll definitely check those out!

I don't know if I'll start with them as our very first one though, only because I don't want to deter my friends from the game by forcing them to play goblins, ya know? I've been sorta hyping this game (D&D and Pathfinder in general) for a long time now, so to telling them that they *have* to be goblins would be a tiny bit unfair to them after all the blabbering I've done about the game, hahah.

I will seriously look into it though and get their opinions on it. :)

I would say NO to the Goblins as a starting adventure/into to gaming for you and your group. Go with something conventional and one that will properly frame the sense of what a character is, does and how they interact with other members and people in town, etc. The "We be Goblin" series is really a set of one-offs that that reverses the normal convention of playing a human, dwarven or elven adventurer. So it works really well as a break from the usual "same old", but you haven't even gotten to the "same" or "old" part of gaming yet. I would disregard this advice and save those modules for later.

I think Crypt is a good intro module, and if your players like it then they can go on to play the two other modules in the series (The Godsmouth Heresy and The City of Golden Death – if my memory serves me right).

Stick to the basics and lay down a good framework that is conventional and common as they occur in supported products (that most players are not goblins). First experiences are critical, so what you run the first time is going to have a big impact on how they perceive the game.
When you guys master the game a little more than you can start using weird races listed in the Bestiary or from other products to work as a change of pace. Get that original pace going - and that is heroes for hire or out for personal glory, site based adventures, exploration and investigation. They are starting out small and are going to go big.

After you get the hang of running the game your imagination will start to open doors for you - you may not even want to run pre-printed modules once you feel more comfortable with adventure and encounter setup.

The Beginner Box may be a better start since you are new DM with new players. As you are running this you can keep up reading the Core book and make comparisons/mental notes on the extra stuff and differences. When you want to convert the characters to the Core game it isn't hard, all the rules are really the same - the Core just has more features to it and is a bit more complicated. So if they like their Beginning Box Pcs they can keep them as you transfer them from BB to Core gaming.

Another short (but not as good as Crypt) is Master of the Fallen Fortress (which I think may be free as a PDF). A good combat module, focus on a little bit of exploration and it is very, very short (shorter than Crypt of the Everflame).

I know this advice conflicts with others, but I would seriously NOT consider running Goblins as a first adventure. The players will have a harder time identifying with the characters/creatures; you lose the aspect of "I made my first character" which is a strong attraction and function of the game - that sense of personal ownership. Stay away from the weird stuff until you get a few modules under your belt and you get a strong grasp of the rules. I think people offering the Goblin module advice are forgetting how hard it is to run a module, get new people connected to their characters and IMMERSED into their characters.

We have some people here who have been playing for decades (+33 years for me) so sometimes when someone new comes here we get excited in our effort to offer help, but we forget how hard it was to get everything right when we first started.

some advice:

- Keep things simple and small as you start out so things are easier to manage for you.

- Master your material. You don't need to know about the whole wide world - just learn the module inside out. They start in town so you need to learn the town; imagine it in your head. The personalities, smells, problems, the layout should all be in your head – imagine it. Then you need to memorize their objective (the dungeon, etc) and have an idea of their trip there and how they will get there.

-The players: What are their motivations for going there – are they being paid to take care of it, is it a threat to their home, have they heard about potential riches at the site – it could be all those things at the same time, but with different meaning to each character. The Paladin player in the group could go to the ruins because there are monsters there which are starting to attack the townsfolk and travelers, while the Rogue in the group may go because he figures that there is probably treasure there (true). So each has their own objective and each has their own goal and focus, but you need to figure out how they will come together.

- Prep before the session: go over everything before your start and have an idea of how far the group is going to progress for the day (through town to shop for gear, prep for the dungeon, travel to the dungeon, etc). Master that material. Learning to pace things is important and you will find your own rhythm in time.

- Prep after the session: What whet right and what went wrong the last time you played? Were the players distracted by their cell phones? Maybe make a rule to minimize distractions? Or create break points where people can make calls catch a breather, etc. What did the players like out of the last session? The feel, the fear, the mood – where they in the game? Could they imagine what was going on to their characters and around them? What did they have a hard time with? What did you have a hard time with? And then after all this, prep for the next session, well in advance of the next session. Also get some feedback from your players - ask them what they like and what they are having trouble with.

- Post DMing and technical questions here. If you don't get a clear answer, post it again - or PM someone who seems helpful.

- Don't get discouraged, your role in the group is the hardest. Once you get things going and make several mistakes the game will flow and your players will probably have a fun time. It's a good hobby, it just has a tough learning curve.

[n0ah]

Wow, Auxmaulous! Thanks for such a great response!

Auxmaulous wrote:

The players will have a harder time identifying with the characters/creatures; you lose the aspect of "I made my first character" which is a strong attraction and function of the game, that sense of ownership.

That was EXACTLY what I was afraid of! That is literally the one thing that I was a little nervous about when debating which one to start with. But to be honest, since I already read the entire Crypt of the Everflame module, I'm pretty excited for it. So I'm probably going to end up running that at our first game session (after character creation of course).

[LazarX]

Auxmaulous wrote:

I know this advice conflicts with others, but I would seriously NOT consider running Goblins as a first adventure. The players will have a harder time identifying with the characters/creatures; you lose the aspect of "I made my first character" which is a strong attraction and function of the game - that sense of personal ownership. Stay away from the weird stuff until you get a few modules under your belt and you get a strong grasp of the rules. I think people offering the Goblin module advice are forgetting how hard it is to run a module, get new people connected to their characters and IMMERSED into their characters.

I don't entirely disagree with your point, but I'd like to point out that that old canard doesn't always apply. The first time gamers who were literally introduced into gaming in We Be Goblins knew that these were temporary characters but they invested in those characters in an intensity I simply don't see from most players who create their own. It was because they knew they had the absolute freedom to do whatever they wanted to, that they threw themselves into it totally. The reason I also recommend in this case because it's a situation where there's no harm,no foul. The players can feel free to screw up and AND SO CAN THE LEARNING GM. Because these aren't going to be characters that are being married to for a prolonged engagement, more like a one night stand for all parties. I think that people can get too invested into this idea of character ownership to the point where they have difficulty letting go when the character kicks off for good. And playing a disposable character for the first go might help avoid that syndrome.

[Auxmaulous]

n0ah wrote:

Wow, Auxmaulous! Thanks for such a great response!

Auxmaulous wrote:

The players will have a harder time identifying with the characters/creatures; you lose the aspect of "I made my first character" which is a strong attraction and function of the game, that sense of ownership.

That was EXACTLY what I was afraid of! That is literally the one thing that I was a little nervous about when debating which one to start with. But to be honest, since I already read the entire Crypt of the Everflame module, I'm pretty excited for it. So I'm probably going to end up running that at our first game session (after character creation of course).

NP, glad to help.

You need to re-read Crypt, and not just the fun/dungeon parts. Read up on the starting points, questions they may ask npcs (that are not listed). Put yourself in the mindset of the NPCs they meet, and base your answers on what they know.

And then go back and re-read Crypt of the Everflame. Read up on each monster entry in the Bestiary, and each NPC class they are going to encounter. Understand the action round and make sure players know what they can and cannot do in a round. They will use use what they know, and you will need to teach them. Once they have and know their options they will run wild in the game. Familiarize yourself with all the low level spells and spell casting. Do you know how they work? Does any of it confuse you? Same for combat/positioning and general combat rules.

And then go back and re-read Crypt of the Everflame. It's your module - you need to own it 100%. Double check with us over here if you want to change or modify encounters since all that effects combat outcome, xp advancement speeds how much treasure (which is converted to weapons and magic) they will be getting.

Oh yeah, welcome to the club.

[Zanzek Oandor]

There are some really good ideas in this thread, and I think any of them can work. My opinion would be to try to figure out with your players what would be fun:

1) Beginner Box - if learning the game is priority #1, this is a darn good place to start
2) Module - Crypt of the Everflame is recommended a few times above, and that was the module that got our group into Pathfinder. It is good, and has a couple of follow-ons, if you want to continue that story afterwards
3) Adventure Path - no need to commit to the whole thing, but even the first book gives (at least to me) a much deeper association to a story and the Pathfinder setting. My group started with a module, but wished in retrospect that we started with an AP.
4) Do-it-yourself - I resurrected by GMing career (DMing, actually, since that was D&D) trying it this way, and, while I learned a ton, I can't say it was the easiest experience for me and my group.

Personal Battle Scar:

My first time GMing since I was a teenager (and I can hardly call that GMing) was a few years ago. I decided to make my own campaign, used D&D 4e Dark Sun as a basis.

I prepared like I was getting ready to defend a Ph.D. thesis. I had plot, I had plot twists, I had compelling NPCs, and I had depth... I had it all worked out.

And the ranger in our party opened the session by filling the key NPC with arrows and took me off-script from the very first encounter. I probably threw away hundreds of hours of work within minutes of starting the very first session, but that's where I started to really learn how to GM, and... someday... I hope to graduate to novice.

[Auxmaulous]

LazarX wrote:

I don't entirely disagree with your point, but I'd like to point out that that old canard doesn't always apply. The first time gamers who were literally introduced into gaming in We Be Goblins knew that these were temporary characters but they invested in those characters in an intensity I simply don't see from most players who create their own. It was because they knew they had the absolute freedom to do whatever they wanted to, that they threw themselves into it totally. The reason I also recommend in this case because it's a situation where there's no harm,no foul. The players can feel free to screw up and AND SO CAN THE LEARNING GM. Because these aren't going to be characters that are being married to for a prolonged engagement, more like a one night stand for all parties. I think that people can get too invested into this idea of character ownership to the point where they have difficulty letting go when the character kicks off for good. And playing a disposable character for the first go might help avoid that syndrome.

All that can be achieved by running any of the older modules with pre-made characters in them. The fact is, the "We Be Goblin" series are non-standard modules. I think the players in his game may have more fun with the mods after they have fought capricious goblins a few times and beat them down. Then the beauty of those modules really shines because it turns into "the shoe is on the other foot" situation. The players then know how hard it is to play a goblin because they have been thrashing them with their PCs.

I can see the attraction of starting out players with pre-made characters, but I think attachment and subsequently immersion (and thus enjoyment) is better if new players bring what they made to the table, vs. being handed a sheet with a pre-made guy/background, etc. All they have in the game is their characters, let them make them. I think people may feel a little freer by playing a pre-gen, but what attracted me to this game decades ago was the sheer terror I felt when my first low-level PC faced death. It was my guy, not some guy from the back of the book. I did stupid things to avoid death, played very cautiously and had a blast. That feeling of fear and excitement is something I ALWAYS try to instill in my players in every and any type of game I run. The experience was invaluable to me, so I would push that “old canard” because it works. To me at least – this is mostly a personal preference thing and I am not trying to start a fight with anyone here, just offering n0ah some alternate advice.

n0ah should also go to lengths to let the players know that if they die, they will probably have to make a new character (which can be a shock if they are used to Guild Wars or WoW or even other PC games and character death). Once that is laid out, and the PCs know that if their characters die that it isn't the end of the game, I think the rewards will outweigh the risks. If n0ah sold them on CharGen and they are already talking about building characters a switch like that could be a non-starter for his group.

[n0ah]

Well here's the thing with my group... it's a small group since there will only be 3 PCs:

1) My girlfriend - she's usually down to play most games so she shouldn't be much of an issue getting into character and what not.

2) Close friend - he's *really* into character development and storytelling. He loves adventure and challenges and all around roleplaying stuff.

3) Close friend's brother - this is the one I'm probably most worried about. He's a "power gamer" in my eyes. He cares a lot about winning and strategizing. And he tends to whine a little if things don't go the way that he thought they'd go.

The three of them are all within 23-26 years of age (I just turned 25 on tuesday :P)

So obviously it's going to take a little work to modify a module or adventure path to make it more manageable for 3 players instead of 4, but I think I can do it.

[Auxmaulous]

Well, I have the mod so if you have any questions about changing encounters/Challenge Ratings, etc, around your groups ability (since they are short a member) just send me a pm or post here and we can make the adjustments to the encounters.

I tend to work on good economical encounters - so you can get some good dramtic effect while keeping the danger level at what it should be at. Something else you will learn as you DM more an more.

And they sound like a group that really would enjoy building their own PCs, just a word of caution - don't favor anyone - don't alienate your GF for heavens sake, but don't make it the "n0ah's GF show", everyone needs their time and their challenges.

Not saying you would make that mistake, but it happens if you are not paying attention as a DM. You need to try to stay neutral and run the game, and err on their side if YOU make a mistake (too hard encounter, math mistake, etc).

Good gaming.

[Kthulhu]

leo1925 wrote:

First of all modules do not usually take one session, they take 2 or 3.

Not all of them. And Paizo isn't the only company that makes adventures for Pathfinder.

[Mark Hoover]

@ No to the Ah: Happy Birthday buddy and welcome to the Show! The Aux-man has some great ideas but I get that you want to keep things simple your first few times at the helm. I'd second Crypt of the Everflame; also Master of the Fallen Fortress, Hollow's Last Hope or the starter modules for Pathfinder Society games.

I'd also encourage you to just put some ideas down on paper (or Word docs or what have you). I've been at this for years and STILL get stymied once in a while.

Best of gaming to you and your group and tell us how your session goes; me especially. I have 3 players in my current homebrew: one is obsessed with all around roleplaying, his wife is into whatever kind of game, and the 3rd guy is all powergaming and tactics. Sound familiar?

I'm really interested to see how you handle these 3 personalities at the table. I know I've gamed with them for a year now and every once in a while still need to remind myself to incorporate something for everyone in design AND execution.

[Trinite]

Hooray, and welcome! There has been a lot of good advice so far. Three things that I'll chime in on:

1. PDFs. I would recommend using a printed copy. I recommend printing out the PDF, actually, if you have the ability to do so. The best is double-sided, then hole-punch and put into a small binder. Then you can add marginal notes, highlight things, etc. I also just find physical pages easier and quicker to navigate (you can see more material at once).

2. Laptop. I really do recommend having a laptop with you. You can keep d20pfsrd.com up, which I find to be the best place for looking up rules. I would recommend that you ask your players not to have any laptops (or phones!) with them at the table, since it will be distracting.

3. Maps vs. mapless combat. A lot of people do end up preferring mapless combat (myself included!), but for beginners I highly recommend using a grid. It is much easier to see how the rules work that way. I think of mapless combat as a more advanced technique. You don't have to worry about buying minis or anything; coins and bottle caps work fine for tracking PCs and enemies.

[leo1925]

Kthulhu wrote:

leo1925 wrote:

First of all modules do not usually take one session, they take 2 or 3.

Not all of them. And Paizo isn't the only company that makes adventures for Pathfinder.

Which of them? The only ones i have played and/or read that take one session (even if you take character creation out of the equation) are we be goblins and dawn of the scarlet sun.

Also i haven't read or played any non-paizo modules, heck i haven't played or read any non-PF paizo modules, so i don't know how long those modules would take.

@Trinite
In my experience after 5-7th level players of casters (especially full casters) usually need a smartphone/laptop/netbook/tablet.

[n0ah]

@Trinite, do you think you can chime in a little more on how mapless combat works? I know for now my friends would like to use a grid and minis, but as I mentioned earlier, I feel like it sorta takes you out of the game a little bit. Personally, I would like to have more of a open combat system, one that doesn't involve so many detailed combat mechanics. Sort of like, if you want to do it and it's reasonable, you can.

@Mark Hoover: Hah! That's funny how your group is pretty much the exact same as mine :P Do you find it difficult at all to make encounters work with only 3 people?

[n0ah]

Ugh. Another noob question:

Can someone explain Skill points (at level 1) for me? It's based on your class and Int modifier, right? I get confused when the CRB says "you can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice."

But doesn't everyone have only one Hit Die?

The way I initially understood it awhile ago, was that you can't have more points in a skill than your current class level. And I thought that the Hit Dice only came into play when determining how much HP a character gains after leveling up?

Is there something I'm missing?

I found this rather humorous guide to filling out a character sheet and in it he said the following:

"Each class has a list of class skills. Each class gets a certain number of skill points per level, modified by Intelligence, and four times this number at 1st-level."

But I see no rule like that in the CRB at all..

[Joe M.]

n0ah wrote:

I found this rather humorous guide to filling out a character sheet and in it he said the following:

"Each class has a list of class skills. Each class gets a certain number of skill points per level, modified by Intelligence, and four times this number at 1st-level."

But I see no rule like that in the CRB at all..

That's the way it worked in D&D 3.0 and 3.5. It's changed.

In Pathfinder, it's as you quote: "you can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice."

So at Level 1, that's 1 rank; at Level 2, 2 ranks; and so on.

The "hit dice" language is used instead of "class level" language to account for cases in which a character's number of hit dice and class level are not the same–for example, if a character has levels in more than one class.