we're not talking all of lifes deepest questions here. We're talking about a huge amout that nobody can come up with an answer for. A lot of these things are practically every-day occurances in Golarion.
How can there be people who don't believe in divinity in Golarion? They could have a different philosophical world view on the definition of divinity and its values... or they could be wrong. Being wrong works right? I prefer the first option, but I guess you'll only accept the latter right? Beats arguing over the very definition of things.
Why is worship needed for one to be a god? Worshipped by how many? A lot of people? Just one? While worship is a requirement to have a *religion* I don't see how it would be a requirement for you to be a god.
Presumeably, there was a point in time, just after he completed the Starstone, when Caiden Caylean (butchering that spelling, you know who I mean) had 0 worshippers. He was still a god at the time though.
As I've tried so hard to make clear, it's not that there necessarily can't be any atheists in Golarion at all. Just that the position doesn't make any sense in Golarion, and therefore; probably there wouldn't be very many.
Drachasor: If I'm understanding you correctly: in 1400 AD in our world, we had very few explainations for many every day occourances, so being an atheist then was equally untennebale as it is in Golarion.
reply: Exaclty. It was. There were very few athiests in 1400 ad. The position didn't make a lot of sense given the knowledge that they had. You'd be considered stark raving mad. Exactly like in Golarion.
As I've tried so hard to make clear, it's not that there necessarily can't be any atheists in Golarion at all. Just that the position doesn't make any sense in Golarion, and therefore; probably there wouldn't be very many.
Okay. That's fine. That wasn't the question either I don't think, it was how to play it up. I could argue theism or atheism or anti-theism doesn't make sense in a lot of settings, but that doesn't teach how to play it in the game.
Is Rovagug "worthy of worship"? For that matter, what makes Sarenrae more deserving of worship than Captain ShinyShield, Defender of the Weak, Champion of Justice, the Goodest Paladin who ever was Good? -other than the fact that she is more powerful?
and yes, an ancient Egyptian was mad if he denied the existence of gods. Anybody could point out the Pharaoh.
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable FROM SCIENCE!"
I see what you did there, and so does Arthur C Clark :P
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The atheist really wouldn't have to explain anything.
*I* can't explain exactly how gravity works, or how this computer works, or how the internal structure of my eyeball works, or the precise mechanism my which oxygen atoms bond to iron atoms in my hemoglobin and provide energy to my body. And yet, I *believe* in all this stuff, and, whether I believe it or not, it all works.
My car will continue to burn fossil fuels, even if I didn't believe in dinosaurs.
They'd have to explain how divine magic works (special school of arcane magic)?
They'd have to explain why; when Aroden died, his followers could no longer use their magic.
They'd have to explain the Starstone, and what happens to those who complete the test.
They'd have to explain why a powerful cleric who falls to evil would suddenly his ability to cast magic.
They'd have to explain what accounts for the differences between how divine and arcane magic works (different spell lists, etc)
"Seems to be a type of magic based on external power from the planes, as opposed to internal power intrinsic to the material plane. Dr. Strange could explain it better than me. Based on what sort of stuff happens to people who bargain with outsiders for power, I think it's terribly irresponsible, compared to arcane magic."
"Aroden may or may not be a myth. He may or may not be dead. I've never met him. I've never met one of these 'de-powered clerics' of his, only seen some old abandoned churches to him. As 'proof' goes, he's *vastly* less convincing than this nice Razmiran fellow, who apparently *does* exist, and *does* have all sorts of power..."
"There's a cathedral in the middle of Absalom that *reportedly* has a big rock inside of it that *nobody can go check and verify* and *reportedly* has made some people into gods. It's literally unprovable. Go there and come back a god, and I'll be your first cleric, until then, go be crazy somewhere else."
"Break your pact with the source of your extradimensional outsider magic, and the magic goes away. Seems simple enough. This is why wizards will always be the superior choice. No strings attached. No imposed morality or 'ethics' foisted down upon you by members of some aging hierarchy who may or may not be making the entire thing up to support their own secular power. Whether the deal with a devil, angel or 'god,' it's not *your* power, but someone else's being loaned to you, and you have sold your soul to be forever at their mercy, a puppet of some otherworldly force."
"Wizards, alchemists, witches, bards, all have different 'lists' of spells. (And three out of four of them can use healing spells!) It would be more 'proof' that there was something unique and special about adepts, clerics, druids, paladins, inquisitors and rangers if they all had the same spell list, proof that they indeed were getting their powers from a different 'divine' source, inaccessible to arcane casters. But they also have disparate spell-lists, just like arcane casters, which suggests that they aren't as special and different as they like to claim."
What exactly are sacred/profane bonuses?
That's a good one. Bear in mind that two good gods, who might be friends or even lovers, can't 'stack' sacred bonuses. But an evil god and a good god *who supposedly hate each other, according to their followers*, can indeed stack a profane bonus and a sacred bonus.
Right there, you've found 'proof' that sacred bonuses and profane bonuses work counter-intuitively. If there were actual gods, and the good and evil gods really opposed each other, then sacred bonuses would stack only with sacred bonuses, and profane bonuses only with profane bonuses, instead of the 'good gods' and the 'evil gods' refusing to work with their purported allies, and instead working hand in hand with *their worst enemies.*
Why would an entire race of beings known for being both Lawful and Good (Archons) repeatedly lie about the existence of gods they claim to serve, such as Torag, or Iomedae?
"Why indeed? If you ever talk to one, perhaps you can find out if they do, of it, as with so many other 'proofs,' it's all a bunch of hoo-ey spread by high level clerics that can summon such beings."
"Assuming the 'angels' being summoned are what the clerics who call them say what they are, and aren't just conjurations of planar energy that do and say exactly what the clerics want them to do and say, like 'good elementals' or 'evil elementals.' Also, you know who 'knows' that archons are good and lawful? Not me. I've never cast detect good or detect law on an archon. They could be chaotic crazyflakes, for all I know, and find lying to mortals in the shape of winged humanoids to be *hilarious* fun. I don't know about you, but the only people I've met in this world who flat out claim to be 'good people' are usually trying to sell me something... What makes outsiders so darn trustworthy?"
Bear in mind that 99 out of 100 average folk are never going to have seen a god, or an archon, *in their lives.* They aren't going to have been inside the Starstone Cathedral. They aren't going to be able to cast commune. They aren't going to have been to an outer plane of existence.
The only 'proof' they have of the gods existence is the *word* of clerics. And for every god-worshipping cleric, there are druids, oracles, adepts, rangers, etc. who *also* have divine magic, and don't necessarily worship anything, and there are arcanists of a half-dozen classes, many able to use healing magic or summon angels or perform other 'divine' miracles, who also don't claim to get their powers from gods.
The burden of proof doesn't lie upon the atheist to prove that something *doesn't* exist. Indeed, proving a negative is rarely even possible (since, even if every single cleric and outsider and god in Golarion *was* a lying fake, that *still* wouldn't actually prove that there aren't real gods out there, *somewhere!*).
The burden of proof lies with the cleric, not just to prove that his god exists, but also that his god is worth worshipping.
If the burden of proof lay with the atheist, Razmir would have a *much* easier time of it, since people would just automatically accept that any fool who claims he's a god must be a god and always trustworthy.
I once played an archaeologist in a Call of Cthulhu game, who was a devout skeptic. He found a "rational" explanation for everything, and it was great fun. I recommend that approach. Just have your greycloaks "explain" alternate reasons for divine instances.
A: he's a cleric. He cast a divine spell.
B: No, my friend. He's a wizard, or sorcerer, or some such thing. Maybe just a charlatan, trying to trick you. Or possibly, he's only confused. You didn't donate any coin to his "church", did you?
A: Well, a little. But he said his god spoke to him.
B: It's called schizophrenia. Best to stay away from him.
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I once played an archaeologist in a Call of Cthulhu game, who was a devout skeptic. He found a "rational" explanation for everything, and it was great fun.
[tangent] Funnest GURPS Horror character I ever saw was a skeptic. We fought off a werewolf (in the dark, he claimed that it was a bear or something) and, at the very end, staked a vampire resting in her coffin. He was apoplectic that we were desecrating a corpse, and when the stake went in the vampire started thrashing about. We turned to him and he thought quickly and shouted, "He's shaking the stick! You can't be falling for this!" He got bonus XP for that one. :) [/tangent]
However for the position to be tenneble, that's not good enough. They'd have to do a series of explainations which are difficult to do without invoking a diety.They'd have to explain how divine magic works (special school of arcane magic)?
It works just like arcane magic does, but has a different source of power (the will of the caster as opposed to wherever arcane magic comes from).
They'd have to explain why; when Aroden died, his followers could no longer use their magic.
Depression based on the loss of their cult leader, or belief. They believed that their 'god' granted the ability to cast spells, so when Aroden died, their belief prevented them from completing their spells.
They'd have to explain the Starstone, and what happens to those who complete the test.
Please provide proof that something happens when such test is completed.
They'd have to explain why a powerful cleric who falls to evil would suddenly his ability to cast magic.
Deep psychological problems similar to those of the Aroden cultists.
They'd have to explain what accounts for the differences between how divine and arcane magic works (different spell lists, etc)
Bards, Wizards, Magus's, Summoners, etc all have different spell lists, why shouldn't there be others with different spell lists too.
What exactly are sacred/profane bonuses?
What exactly are all the bonuses, some of them have just as inexplicable origins as sacred/profane bonuses?
Why would an entire race of beings known for being both Lawful and Good (Archons) repeatedly lie about the existence of gods they claim to serve, such as Torag, or Iomedae?
They are simply delusional about either what Torag and the others are, or their existence. (Telling the truth and what is really true are not the same thing.)
@Kazzan - You are literally using words incorrectly.
A-theism, grammatically speaking, is the opposite of Theism.
No. The word means not believing in any deity.
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a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity
Atheism, could refer either to the state that a creator exists but doesn't interact (Deism)
No. Deism is a type Theism, since Deists believe in a creator god.
a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe
I see two big issues here.
The first is that being an atheist, a real don't believe in any god atheist as dictionary defined, means you just don't believe the commonly known history of your world. Not that you have bunches of competing churches and disregard them; it means you just don't believe the history books, the people who've died and been judged and returned to tell about it, or the plane travelers. It is like not beliving JFK or Washington existed.
The second is unless I looked at it wrong, the Graycloaks are specifically said to believe in gods. They don't think they are worth worshiping, but they know the exist because of divine magic. Guide to Absalom Page 13 and 14.
@Kazzan - You are literally using words incorrectly.
A-theism, grammatically speaking, is the opposite of Theism.No. The word means not believing in any deity.
2
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deityAtheism, could refer either to the state that a creator exists but doesn't interact (Deism)No. Deism is a type Theism, since Deists believe in a creator god.
a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universeI see two big issues here.
The first is that being an atheist, a real don't believe in any god atheist as dictionary defined, means you just don't believe the commonly known history of your world. Not that you have bunches of competing churches and disregard them; it means you just don't believe the history books, the people who've died and been judged and returned to tell about it, or the plane travelers. It is like not beliving JFK or Washington existed.
The second is unless I looked at it wrong, the Graycloaks are specifically said to believe in gods. They don't think they are worth worshiping, but they know the exist because of divine magic. Guide to Absalom Page 13 and 14.
Not quite true, they deny the divinity of gods and consider them just powerful "angels or genies." (Admittedly the text of the book is somewhat contradictory.
The district guard is known as the Graycloaks, a unit
drawn exclusively from declared nonbelievers who
reject the divine authority of any god. Though most
Graycloaks admit gods exist and clearly have power, they
do not accept that these beings are anything more than
unusually powerful angels or genies or are in any way
worthy of worship. Apart from their signature light-gray
wool cloaks, the Graycloaks wear no symbols or markings
of any kind, which is itself a mark of their lack of divine
allegiance. Because they mistrust all religions equally,
the Greycloaks have a history of dealing with members of
all religions fairly—a critical element of any guard in the
Ascendant Court.
Rejecting "divine authority" and being a nonbeliever is not the same thing.
Atheism wouldn't exist in Golarion. Such a concept couldn't possibly be analogous to atheism of the real world in any way shape or form.
Beyond that, valuing scientific evidence above all else hardly even makes sense in a world where magic is so prevalent. Where magic is present, the scientific method breaks down, that would mean you can't have atheism rooted in observable evidence which makes the concept -as I pointed out earlier- an entirely different animal than any kind of atheism present in our world.
The two things here worth looking at are that "atheism" isn't the right word for how it works in Pathfinder but is the one we fall back on to use.
The second is that magic is more or less science in Pathfinder. It's empirical with minor statistical deviations (damage or chance of messing up a teleport). A person with access to enough magic can if they decide to become a "meta" mage could begin to understand a lot about the world with ideas like HD/level and saving throws etc.
Then again, religion in Pathfinder follows Scientology a bit with "I'm now a higher level, I can implode non-believers with my powah."
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Proof that divine power doesn't come from the extra-planar beings claiming to be gods: Atheist clerics in the RAW.
Yes, I am serious.
Core Rule Book, page 40: "Domains: A cleric’s deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches that domain. If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies."
Ibid. p 41"Domains
Clerics may select any two of the domains granted by their deity. Clerics without a deity may select any two domains (choice are subject to GM approval)."
So clearly even a cleric can get spells from, oh, I dunno, the mystic energies of the universe, "The Force", or even from an all-powerful divine singularity (as opposed to the polytheistic choices presented in the CRB) if a player so chooses to roleplay it that way.
Well, pending GM approval.
So, what does the PFS Guide have to say about it? Does this publication, essentially the equivalent of "GM approval" for this campaign, have anything to say on the matter?
Nope, It just mentions stuff about the Nobility Domain, and a given deity (page 8): "Clerics with the Nobility domain get the Persuasive feat at 8th level instead of the Leadership feat. Clerics with the Rune domain receive Spell Focus at 1st level instead of Scribe Scroll. Clerics of Irori receive Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat so they can use their deity’s favored weapon (unarmed strike) without provoking an attack of opportunity."
So, how to roleplay an atheist, what with all the evidence of divine beings? Same way as a monotheist: Those things aren't all-powerful creators and sustainers of the entire multiverse, unlike the one true God their powers can be canceled out by another more powerful so-called god, and indeed in one such god-battle didn't one of 'em actually DIE? How can a real god DIE? Poppycock!
Or to quote Captain America: "There's only one God, ma'am, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that."
Without is not the same as denying the existence of.
I'm going to suggest a bit of randomness here as I know next to nothing about Greycloaks.
I was toying with playing a sorc that was an active "There are no gods" in his beliefs at one point back in 3.5.... Oh, he believed in Pelor and the rest alright. He believed that they were a bunch of VERY powerful outsiders who one should not mess with... But he didn't see anything in them that was worthy of worship. Respect? Some of them for what they stood for. Fear? All of them (calling yourself a god is a bit egotistical, and I figured with him consistently denying it might make him nervous of 'divine retribution'). But worth of worship? No. No more more than he thought commoners should be worshipping him. He believed that the energy you spent worshipping should go into self improvement and being a better person, not mindlessly doing what the voices in the sky tell you to do.
Work out what defines a 'God' to your character. Maybe he just hasn't found anyone who can give him a definition that he hasn't been able to tear to shreds within 5 minutes...
Is it being worshipped?
If that's all it takes, then there's this cult of goblins over there that are devoted to their 'Funny shaped rock' god.
Is it the ability to grant spells?
If so, then where to demon lords fit in (I'm guessing from the rest of the thread they can still grant spells)? Are they gods as well?
Is it that their worshipers channel healing?
What about the clerics of an alignment, Druids and oracles? Also, BARDS who aren't even Divine casters but get Cures.
Is it something so insanely powerful it's beyond our comprehension?
Well... If your a level 1 commoner, that's the local witch (She turned me into a newt!)
Is it that you can do the supernatural without drawing power from an external source?
Sorcs and Monks may have a fun time then. Take levels in godling instead (they might be worth playing then!)
Is it true immortality?
Ummmm.... So Aroden wasn't a god then?
Ok... immortality until you are offed?
Creature Type of Undead. I'm not worshiping an 1/2 CR skeleton.
But at the end of it, if you can't give me a definition of what a constitutes a 'God' then it can rapidly become difficult to treating them as a 'God' worthy of worship. Respect (and fear), certainly. You don't throw offal at a Dragon just because he's not Tiamat... but worship? Worship and respect / fear are two different beasts.
@Howling Wolf, of The Wolf Clan
In Golarion there aren't clerics who don't whorship a deity.
Alternately, instead of an atheist, you could simply pay an apathetic. Yeah, there are gods, but you don't care. You don't kiss up to them, you don't care what they do. They should stay on their plane and mind there business, and let the native inhabitants of THIS plane take care of themselves.
So 'denying the existence of' is hard to do in Golarion (darn it), but choosing not to worship them (I believe that's called being apostate rather than atheist)? Perfectly workable.
@Howling Wolf, of The Wolf Clan
In Golarion there aren't clerics who don't whorship a deity.
That may be the most awesome typo ever.
In Golarion there aren't clerics who don't whorship a deity.
They were retconned out with the creation of the oracle if I remember correctly, as were pantheon worshippers, as were several other issues. In PFS though you absolutely have to worship a deity if your a cleric, inquisitor, or a paladin.
I actually don't know what settings were okay with worshipping an ideal, the only one off the top of my head is Ebberon, but I don't know that many setting because I've always gone with homebrew.(Its always okay to do ideal in my homebrew)
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Unfortunately, it appears that whether you are good or evil, any 'atheist' is still treated the same: thrown out as trash and possibly used to keep one of the various existence ending powers appeased. Although some go into just being wandering spirits or reincarnation, but that might be the exception to the rule.
If I remember correctly, Groetus is attracted to the souls of mortals who have faith in a god and repelled by the souls of atheist. Pharasma occasionally feeds him an atheist once in a while to make him go away.
...so if the souls of atheists are the only thing saving the entirety of existence by keeping the god of Armageddon away, can you really call them trash? Plus, atheist souls can't be that rare considering how vast the Graveyard is (and the fact that there's the whole "realm of the content" on the other end made up entirely of atheists).
If anything, aren't the gods hastening the end of things by taking souls away to the aligned planes? Every soul that worships a god gets sent off to that god's realm after death (or eaten by a Daemon, which are pretty end-timesy themselves), and is one less soul available to repel the end of all existence. Pharasma may not even need to feed Groetus the occasional atheist if there were more of them in the graveyard passively repelling him and fewer believers cluttering the Boneyard, selfishly attracting his attention.
You could even make a case that the Starstone itself is helping end existence by not only creating new gods to be worshiped but as an exceptionally effective form of advertising for the very system of faith and afterlife that is slowly killing off the world. Like some sort of ... subtle trap dropped on an unsuspecting world.
Maybe that's why Aroden died? He figured out the game was rigged and his existence as a god was actually weakening reality. He'd built up an entire empire that worshiped him as a living god, which meant he'd effectively pulled an entire globe-spanning empire worth of souls away from holding back Groetus for generations. Plus he was responsible for setting up the Starstone trap. He'd spent his entire life fighting Demons, so he probably knew a lot about Qlippoth and Daemons.
How much would it suck to find out you'd spent your life fighting back Demonic invasions and building empires in order to save the world ... and everything you'd accomplished was helping Daemons destroy the world? I can imagine that being a fun thing for the Whispering Tyrant to thrown back in Aroden's face. A nice little catch-22 that explains why Aroden never took the field against his reborn archnemesis like everyone expected. If a god shows up and fixes the problem that just furthers everyone's faith, which spreads belief, which attracts more worshipers ... which kills reality that much faster. The more you help the more you hurt. Short term victory, long term loss....
Maybe he was bumped off by the other gods because he was willing to go public about the scam, or because he was spreading too much faith too quickly (he was the most active God, everyone else was more hands-off). Or maybe he ended himself in order to "free up" all those souls that were worshiping him and maybe shake humanity's faith in "gods" (who can clearly fail and die so maybe you should make your own destiny independent of them).
*shrug* Just an idea.
Heh. In a conspiracy game, I had a moreau fox(think "island of doctor) doctor from a nazi supersoldier experiment that was more than a little skeptical of the party's report of a werewolf. While the party psycic was quick to point out the absurdity, the moreau pointed out that neither of THEM tossed out the law of conservation of energy.
In Golarion there aren't clerics who don't whorship a deity.They were retconned out with the creation of the oracle if I remember correctly, as were pantheon worshippers, as were several other issues. In PFS though you absolutely have to worship a deity if your a cleric, inquisitor, or a paladin.
I actually don't know what settings were okay with worshipping an ideal, the only one off the top of my head is Ebberon, but I don't know that many setting because I've always gone with homebrew.(Its always okay to do ideal in my homebrew)
Really, inquisitors too? But those gained the whole "worship an ideal" thing at the same time oracle came out. Too bad, but I suppose it is for the sake of fairness for those restricted to certain alignments/moral codes to get the domain they want...plus restrict people from picking any domain they can think of (I hear the Madness domain is rather nice, even if it is only for worshipers of a CE diety, which means only CN characters can have it... and it still would lead to problems. this would stop those that would pick such a nasty domain and go around calling themselves CG)
Really, inquisitors too? But those gained the whole "worship an ideal" thing at the same time oracle came out. Too bad, but I suppose it is for the sake of fairness for those restricted to certain alignments/moral codes to get the domain they want...plus restrict people from picking any domain they can think of (I hear the Madness domain is rather nice, even if it is only for worshipers of a CE diety, which means only CN characters can have it... and it still would lead to problems)
Yes, its rather awkward that inquisitors aren't idealist either, but even order of the star cavalier/samurai have to worship a deity. The domain thing really doesn't fit as an explanation for exactly the reason you just gave. Btw, Azathoth is a chaotic neutral god with Madness.
Ah...well that seems even worse. You can warp the minds of others with a mere touch and you can be the "just a normal guy" alignment? Sure neutral can also be about balance... but this is the madness domain, balance would not be your 'thing.'
Well, it was also likely that it would just be hard to standardize a system any random 'ideal' the player wanted to use. It is easier to work with when you are following the teachings of an entity with well defined belief clearly written out. Inquisitors in particular seem like they would be hard to work with since a lot of the fluff and such indicates they have more leeway with their actions while following their beliefs when compared to a cleric or paladin.
Why would you have to standardize it? Pick 1 or 2 domains that go with an idea, run with it! Its actually much more fun I think. Allows you freedom to choose who you are that deities don't allow. Also allowed Anti-theist inquisitors of Rohoudron, but those probably don't belong in the society for a few reasons.
for the madness domain without being evil there's the lantern king, a trickster god from the first world
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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How did a topic of fantasy atheists/deists come up without a single mention of The Athar?
The Graycloaks remind me of them.
I just found something interesting for the perspective of this discussion: Aboleth. They are basically a race of hyper magical fish...things with tentacles. The important part about them though is that they are a race that have been on this planet longer than the gods and helped to start up the Azlanti civilization, one of the first major human civilizations in the setting (and also brought it down by calling down the Starstone as a WMD and accidently ruining everybody's civilizations). This race is made up entirely of atheists (or misotheists; whatever) who think of the gods as "young upstarts." To the aboleth, there is little difference between a god and any other powerful outsider other than scale.
Now, how does this apply in gameplay? Well, the Gillmen are a race made up of Azlanti that the Aboleth saved by altering them and taking them underwater when they realized how much they messed up. I am not sure whether they are PFS legal though, or at least without using a boon. While one could say that such an individual would worship the Aboleth instead... well, I already told you about the 'colorful' history between the two races. So they might have an education that gives them a certain perspective on the gods, and a culture that only begrudgingly serves the Aboleth.
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To the original poster, I think it's pretty easy to play an atheist in Golarion. You need only go so far as turn to the belief systems of the various Planescape factions for guidance. In short, the Athar do not deny that there are being of extreme power and might that others attribute to divinity, but they stop short of acknowledging that as godhood itself. Taken from a wikipedia entry on Plancescape factions:
Athar
("Defiers", "The Lost"), who deny not only the gods' right to pass judgment over mortals, but their very divinity. They claim that the gods (whom they call "powers") are powerful but have limits and do not deserve worship. Instead, Athar priests channel divine power from what they call the "Great Unknown", or what they believe to be the true divine force behind everything. Their headquarters in Sigil is the Shattered Temple, the former temple of the dead god Aoskar. The Athar are broadly derived from real-world atheists, agnostics, and Deists.
If I recall correctly, one of their statements of belief is that "The gods are liars."
I just found something interesting for the perspective of this discussion: Aboleth.
Aboleth and Illithid both have a great view of gods. They think they're older, better, and more important! As old and important to most settings as they are they might be right...
Gillmen aren't legal for society play to my knowledge, though they do have some of their kin living in Absolom if I remember correctly.
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In a current AP (not PFS), I am playing a sorcerer who is an atheist. He truly believes that all divine casters are sorcerers who have simply developed a different set of spells than him and other "typical" sorcerers, but they mistakenly attribute their inborn abilities to devotion to some fake ultra-powerful outsider. He believes that other planes exist and that there are definitely outsiders, but doesn't believe that any of them are really gods or able to grant spells.
He's a lot of fun to play and I can't wait for him to be hit upside the head by a god (I'm eventually multi-classing him into oracle).
I like this approach, because in his mind, it explains where divine casters get their powers without the need for a spellbook, and since sorcerers develop their powers and many of them know a different set of spells, it makes sense that some might know healing spells.
Incidentally, he is of celestial bloodline, so he heals good-aligned creatures with heavenly fire and frequently uses this as an example of atheism being correct. "I've never prayed to a 'god' a day in my life, yet I can heal. I just haven't developed the needed abilities to heal to an extent as great as the diluted 'cleric'."
Timothy, how does this sorcerer deal with witches? I bring this up since they are an arcane caster that are granted spells from an outside power. Admittedly, he could either view them as the same kind of charlatan who simply say they get their powers that way or that clerics are just witches with a different spell list.
EDIT: Here is a question: where does a paladin's power come from? They are basically knights with divine power granted to them. Yet they are not required to worship any god in the rules (or any vague bit about nature for druids/rangers). Sure, most worship gods, and many serve specific ones, but mechanically it was not required. Gods are only tangently mentioned in the divine bond/holy champion abilities. Overlooking the fact that it might not have been mentioned since Lawful Good characters tend not to rock the boat by going atheist, there is nothing stopping them from doing so. You can interpret this in two ways:
1.) They worship an ideal. The knight in shining armor, Lawful Good, defender of the innocent and redeemer/punisher of the guilty. They just draw their power from the general lawful goodness of the universe. This would put them in league with godless clerics or inquisitors.
2.) Gods make "donations" to the 'Save the Paladin' fund. Paladins are a well known occupation known for their righteousness and fight against evil and chaos. So good and/or lawful deities give out divine power to MAKE the aforementioned 'lawful goodness of the universe' as a wellspring of power. This might also explain how paladins get hit with the banhammer so quickly when they start going morally ambiguous. A god is watching over them and cutting them off.
This still leaves an opportunity though. If paladins are GRANTED divine power, it does not necessarily mean they must worship the one giving it. One can serve in a government office assigned by the king without kissing his feet. Could a paragon of justice impress the gods so much that they are willing to over look his philosophical conflicts with their position as divine overseers of the multiverse?
@Dunelord:
Learn etymology and apply it in your daily life; it makes you silly to argue against people who are correct. It's one thing to quote a dictionary... quite another to really understand what the word means and where it comes from. Here, I'll get you started:
Deism is not a sub-category of Theism as you claim; quite the opposite, Deism and Theism are exclusive of each other.
Deism is a variety of Atheism since Atheism includes the set of all things opposite Theism, and the fundamental principal and meaning of Theism is existence of a divine creator with revelation. The term is often misappropriated to mean just belief in God just as the term Atheist is similarly mis-used to be limited to only disbelief in God.
There are Atheists who believe there is nothing "supernatural" in the universe and the only thing we have to rely on is the secular human perspective; these are Humanists. They are just as much Atheists as Deists who believe there are supernatural elements that we, as humans, simply are not and likely cannot be aware of. And there are other gradations as well. Don't make the mistake of believing that your take on Atheism is binding and correct and that anyone with an approach to it that's different from you is wrong; there are lots of different methods that can fit under the same umbrella and 'Atheism' is a relatively large umbrella... larger than you give it credit for, anyway.
This isn't a debate; you are abstractly and provably wrong. Words have agreed upon meanings. If you believe in one or more gods you aren't an atheist.