Out of curiosity mostly...
A while ago there was a discussion on some forum, most likely here on the official boards, about future adventure paths. Someone speculated that perhaps Numeria would be a choice location. This was immediately followed by sceptical comments whose wording I cannot remember in detail but the idea was that Numeria was too radical and polarizing to be covered by an adventure path.
My question is: Why?
I've read what little I can find about Numeria on various websites, and it seems fairly normal.
Am I missing something huge?
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For unfathomable reasons some folks dislike crashed spaceships, cyber-enhanced barbarians, spell-slinging androids and laser-armed spiderbots in their fantasy.
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Numeria is the elephant in the room that no one seems to like to address. I have brought this up in the past also, but this was before the Inner Sea Bestiary was released. Now that it is, things like advanced technology and androids have been addressed so I am not sure what else would prevent an AP being developed for the area.
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You're missing the vocal group of conservative gamers for whom steampunk is a blasphemy, and any sci-fi elements in fantasy are equivalent to digging out Tolkien's skeleton and setting it on fire.
Sadly, said gamers form a large chunk of D&D market, which is quite the conservative to begin with. Perhaps now, after Reign of Winter and Distant Worlds both showing that there is market for science-fantasy, things will change, but still you'll have "get your Star Wars out of my dragons and princesses now" people in this thread in 5,4,3,2,1...
The issue with tech in D&D has been around since the beginning with gamers taking strong positions on either side. Look at the response to even the gunslinger as an example, a large part of the players either love or hate the idea of even simple firearms in the game.
Just handle tech like another form of magic, to most characters there is no difference between a laser and a wand of magic missile. These items can also be fun RP. One example I can recall from an older 3P book, a character had a flashlight and having seen a laser in action insisted on using it for his first attack. He figured that there must be something that it worked on.
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You're missing the vocal group of conservative gamers for whom steampunk is a blasphemy, and any sci-fi elements in fantasy are equivalent to digging out Tolkien's skeleton and setting it on fire.
If they were really old-school conservative gamers, they'd have played through Expedition to the Barrier Peaks or City of Gods/Temple of the Frog and would understand that this kind of mix-matching is kickin' it old-school.
Pew pew pew!
There are APs for all sorts of tastes, and many people don't play all of them 'cause they doint suit them. A Numeria thing wouldn't be that off, IMO.
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This vocal group of "conservative" gamers has somehow managed to miss or ignore the fact that every major official D&D setting, literally every single one ever, has had SF technology in it. Blackmoor? Temple of the Frog and its stranded alien leaders. Greyhawk? Barrier Peaks, Murlynd the cowboy mage. Forgotten Realms? Had an artificer-like prestige class. Eberron? Magitech all over the place. Mystara? Incorporated a version of Blackmoor, plus a giant robot the size of a small town, and a flying city defended by biplanes. Dark Sun? Weird psionic biotech. Spelljammer and Planescape? Many of these settings were inherently part of both. Even Dragonlance, where it was played almost solely for laughs, had tinker gnomes.
...I think the only D&D setting TSR/WotC ever published that didn't have some kind of science fiction element was Birthright, and I'm not even sure about that one.
Now that I have seen an AP go to WWI Russia and confront the PC's with rifles, animated tanks, grenades, etc. I think we should be able to put to bed the idea the tech in Numeria is just too far out of bounds.
It seems to me that Paizo likes to test the boundaries occasionally, so unless someone at the company has a major problem with Numeria, I think we will eventually see it.
Plus Numeria isn't the only place with "sci-fi" tech in Golarion. There is plenty of it. Clockwork in Caer-Maga and Robots in one of the Dungeons of Golarion I believe just for starters.
Mystara? Incorporated a version of Blackmoor, plus a giant robot the size of a small town,
Oh, yeah; I remember that thing.
It was full of wieroes and they almost flattened one of my small towns. Well it wasn't really the wierdos fault, and at least they weren't *quite* as annoying as Tinker Gnomes (actually they were decent enough chaps).
Milos still owes me money for the damages his traveling carnival caused. >_<
On second thought, maybe a Numeria AP isn't such a good idea after all. . .
There is a difference between an incursion in 1918 Russia and a whole AP based on sci-fi.
Not that I would hate a Numeria/science-fantasy based AP, just that a whole AP could scare people away. Just look at Wrath of the Righteous. Some people are scared of it because of Mythic rules and that ain't sci-fi.
I understand why high ups at Paizo might not want to do a whole Numeria AP. A module could work, like the one coming out that is set in Alkenstar. With modules now at 64 pages, it makes them more detailed and Paizo high ups can see how the market reacts (like how the market reacted to Distant Worlds). Add a whole chronicle and a compagnion on Numeria and that would be very satisfaying.
I can't disagree with this either.
There is a difference between an incursion in 1918 Russia and a whole AP based on sci-fi.
Not that I would hate a Numeria/science-fantasy based AP, just that a whole AP could scare people away. Just look at Wrath of the Righteous. Some people are scared of it because of Mythic rules and that ain't sci-fi.
And the same reaction was to Jade Regent (because, you know, "we don't want Asia or that whole anime in our Pseudo Medieval Western Europe") and Skull & Shackles (golden age-style pirates with firearms? no way!).
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I'd be happy with better descriptions of the place for a start. I mean it's got crashed spaceships, a deep one infested lake, evil, ebil, EVIL technomancers and a barbarian king. The Inner Sea guide throws around the word "brutal" like Lovecraft if he only knew one adjective but not much else.
I'm about to start a game set there and I've decided to give it a Mongol feel with dinosaurs added on, because: hell yeah.
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Reactionary players debate a side, I am glad the people of Paizo dared to get into new fields for a genre as stagnated as sword and sorcery by doing references to its past in the gaming industry.
A well written Numerian AP could be more than just "Conan meets Dune", it could be a true "Road trip" trough Golarion's solar system at high levels, a tribute to the comics of Jean "Moebius" Giraud and Alex Jodorowsky or Pierre Christin and Jean-Claude Mézèries, to Heavy Metal covers' art, to the science fiction of Jack Vance and Roger Zelazny.
Cyborg technomancers, Anti-grav bike riding barbarians, mammoths fighting giant robots, aballonite companions trying to understand organics, space battles between vercites pirate ships an eoxian frigate... Really, I can't wait for it.
I am one of those people who doesn't care much for the Mythic World Wound AP but I would love too see an entire AP take place in Numeria. I have no problems with robots, tech, aliens, trains, Asian myth, pirates, guns, etc. being in my campaigns if it fits the world I wish to create so the more "weird" stuff the better.
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I'd have also liked some better physical descriptions. Is the entire thing brown wastelands like the picture of the skeleton? Does it have toxic forest with ship part in it (Nausicaa?) Does it have rolling green hills with ships poking out? It's right next to the River Kingdoms - I don't see the entire thing looking like Arizona.
It's right next to the River Kingdoms - I don't see the entire thing looking like Arizona.
Although Arizona does have a pretty broad range of geographic diversity.
I would ADORE an Adventure Path set in/around Numeria.
And I also don't think that it is "too out there" for consideration anymore ... especially with the globe-trotting/planet-hopping/planar-traveling "Reign of Winter" Adventure Path.
+1 for a Numeria AP!!
Dean
NUMERIA AP OR WE'LL START A "ON LOCKING OF THREADS" THREAD!!!!! ;-P
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I don't have a lot of money to spend on peripheral gaming products so an AP needs to be really special to make me want to drop the money on it. A Numeria AP might just do that for me. I would have to wait for the whole thing to be released and read all about it first, but it may just be enough to earn my money.
As an example, after reading what was going to happen in part five of Reign of Winter I wanted to run it. It may be complete garbage, I don't know yet and that is part of the fun. I am running it as written (not something I normally do) just to see what happens.
So +1 to the development of a Numeria AP.
A Numeria adventure module could be cool and might test the waters sales-wise for the interest of a more detailed (i.e. AP) product.
NUMERIA AP OR WE'LL START A "ON LOCKING OF THREADS" THREAD!!!!! ;-P
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NUMERIA AP OR WE'LL START A "ON LOCKING OF THREADS" THREAD!!!!! ;-P
Is dat u in the Blackhawk's Jersey?
A Numeria adventure module could be cool and might test the waters sales-wise for the interest of a more detailed (i.e. AP) product.
I'm just going to leave this here.
Realistically...a Numeria AP wouldn't be androids and technomancers 24/7. The starmount would probably be in the final volume...I imagine most of it would be fairly standard fantasy, with the occasional bit of sci-fi thrown in.
Just like Reign of Winter has some out there stuff, but it's fairly limited to a few AP's (and even then, Triaxus is pretty standard fantasy, not really science fiction)
You're missing the vocal group of conservative gamers for whom steampunk is a blasphemy, and any sci-fi elements in fantasy are equivalent to digging out Tolkien's skeleton and setting it on fire.
But do these people even play in Golarion?
I think it destroys a fantasy setting, but so are a lot of other things about Golarion. If you're okay with those, I don't see Numeria being a deal braker.
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You're missing the vocal group of conservative gamers for whom steampunk is a blasphemy, and any sci-fi elements in fantasy are equivalent to digging out Tolkien's skeleton and setting it on fire.But do these people even play in Golarion?
I think it destroys a fantasy setting, but so are a lot of other things about Golarion. If you're okay with those, I don't see Numeria being a deal braker.
Yeah, but you can generally ignore the parts you don't like. If you don't like the Numerian super-science in your game, you can still use the rest of Golarion. Just don't go to or talk about Numeria and you're fine. Similarly with the rest of the weird stuff. House rule no guns, don't go to Alkenstar and you're fine. Etc.
OTOH, if there's an AP set there, you're probably going to avoid it.
Kind of like if Pirates aren't your thing you avoided Skull & Shackles; if Caravan/Cultural Exploration wasn't your thing you avoided Jade Regent; if Wilderness Exploration/Building a Kingdom wasn't your thing you avoided Kingmaker...
Every AP that Paizo has ever published (Yes, I'm including the three in Dungeon too) has had people saying 'That's not my bag'. Every AP that Paizo has ever published has had people saying 'Oh Hell Yeah!'.That is why they try & not repeat themselves too much thematically from AP to AP. To be honest, until Reign of Winter came out, I almost never had two AP's in a row that I was really that interested in. The only time I can really think of before that was Carrion Crown & Jade Regent. Jade Regent was then followed by Skull & Shackles which I considered 'meh'; so the fact that I have been really excited about Shattered Star, Reign of Winter & Wrath of the Righteous enthuses me terribly.
Granted, my wallet isn't so thrilled, but there are always positives & negatives in any situation.
Realistically...a Numeria AP wouldn't be androids and technomancers 24/7. The starmount would probably be in the final volume...I imagine most of it would be fairly standard fantasy, with the occasional bit of sci-fi thrown in.
It'd kind of need to be crazy sci-fi with technomancers on dinosaurs and ancient city guns and android uprisings and the PCs having to save the world from the creators of the various techs when they show up to claim the world.
(That's the game I'm starting to run tomorrow.)
Because, it needs to be pretty distinct now to stand out. The APs have covered a lot of space so far and I think the newer ones need to stretch a bit to keep the ideas and feel fresh.
Oh, I just realized that we'll likely get a writeup in the upcoming AP since crusaders pass through Numeria on the way to the worldwound I think.
Oh, I just realized that we'll likely get a writeup in the upcoming AP since crusaders pass through Numeria on the way to the worldwound I think.
Possibly, except one of the Devs stated that the AP starts & mostly takes place in the Northeast region of the Worldwound. Also, keep in mind there are other routs to Mendev than through Numeria.
I don't understand, everybody talks about a BIG clash of haters and lovers of Sci-Fi... But I don't really see anybody other than people that love Numeria more than anything other fantasy.
So where are all those haters you guys are talking about? Cuz now in this thread there are zero.
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I don't understand, everybody talks about a BIG clash of haters and lovers of Sci-Fi... But I don't really see anybody other than people that love Numeria more than anything other fantasy.
So where are all those haters you guys are talking about? Cuz now in this thread there are zero.
Some guy who goes "PLZ NO MORE ROBOTS AND LAZORS" in Bestiary threads springs to mind...
But i'm the only one here, thanks for giving me the strength of an entire angry army tho, I take that as a compliment. :-D
And i'm only afraid that Sci-Fi takes over, I don't mind a little bit here and there, I just don't want to see my dullahans, Redcaps and banshees being replaced by terminators and Wall-E's, in the latest AP with the russians for example I think there is a very nice ballance of things, dullahans and fantasy creatures for me and real-time russians and animated tanks for lovers of that kind of fantasy.
So I wouldn't mind an Numeria AP if there are also Dullahan,s Minotaurs and normal fantasy creatures in there which have their old original roles and which don't get dressed with half robot arms and laser guns, just a mix of it all, not a total overtake.
Sort: I don't want Sci-Fi to become so popular that it replaces the entire fantasy genre and then we get something as horrible as Spelljammers. (I know it has many fans, but i'm not one of those and never will)
but I have faith in paizo that it won't turn out that way but much better like they proved with the latest AP. + JJ has said he doesn't like dressed hippo's so it probably won't happen that way.
So where are all those haters you guys are talking about? Cuz now in this thread there are zero.
*raises hand*
I'm one who doesn't like Numeria. But, I'm not going to say those who do are having BadWrongFun either. There is obviously some demand for a Numeria AP, and that's great. Let them have it. I won't be purchasing it. Or rather, if I ever did, I'd be running it in a setting other than traditional fantasy, and probably making lots of changes because of that.
So where are all those haters you guys are talking about? Cuz now in this thread there are zero.
I love the idea of Numeria, my group...not so much. So thats one for it four against.
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It seems like quite a risk for them to switch their flagship product (the APs) to a sci-fi adventure for 6 months.
Since its such a different niche it might be better done as a separate, experimental product line.
It's not niche, it's mainstream. And business is about taking risks and watching them pay off.
It seems like quite a risk for them to switch their flagship product (the APs) to a sci-fi adventure for 6 months.
Since its such a different niche it might be better done as a separate, experimental product line.
It won't be sci-fi. It'll be just as fantasy as ever, with wizards and clerics and all, just with a leavening of robots and lasers and whatnot.
Yeah, I've never even heard of a bookstore that shelved fantasy and sf separately.
Yeah because genre mixing never works...Oh wait...video games like final fantasy, shin megami tensei, etc. ,pulp comics and comic books in general, old school D@D, anime and cartoons in general, etc.
I always see sci-fi and fantasy in one section in bookstores as well.
Actually, every local bookstore I've seen has a science fiction/fantasy section, not separate ones for each. And a lot of works mix the two.Yeah, the larger section is sometimes called that here too, but they don't intermingle books of the two genres but shelf them separately. Perhaps they are just more pedantic in my country.
What authors mix futuristic sci-fi with sword and sorcery fantasy?
Here in the States, the sci-fi/fantasy section is typically only sorted by author or series, without seperating the two genres. I don't know of any authors that mix sci-fi and fantasy in the same book, though I wouldn't be surprised if there are some that do. In fact I'd be surprised if there aren't any that do. You can find fiction about pretty much anything, with enough digging.