|
One issue with allowing it to carry over is the possibility of metagaming to hook up with someone in the next game that can not only cast the spell to remove a condition but coincidentally has it prepared on the first day they meet. So you go from spending your gold to remove a condition to basically no consequences for contracting it other than another PC's spell slot.
It would give those who regularly play together an edge as they're more likely to cooperate, otherwise you're putting an unreasonable burden on someone you just met:
Drainee: So, anybody playing a cleric?
Cleric: Obviously
Drainee: Can you do me a favor and prep CURE ME?
Cleric: Well, that's not one I usually prep as my spell slots at that level are limited
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is the perfect example of how things get in a mess because people refuse to apply a bit of common sense to the rules, forcing the Organisers (i.e. Mike Brock) to make a black-or-white ruling.
No one forced anyone, unless free will stopped being a thing.
I'd rather see health insurance policies myself, but I might just be crazy. I would think that would at least make WBL a little better with consumables, especially if we're getting a pay cut.
|
|
It seems to me that a lot of this stuff could be cleared up by simply having GM invoke fiat when people start acting all wonky.
If a player doesn't want to use common sense surely the GM would be willing to use their common sense and override the player at their table even if "technically" by the strictest interpretation of a grammatically vague set of rules the player is right, but not following the spirit of the actual rules.
The fact that this discussion even took place really boggles my mind, and now because of it we have a blanket ruling that actually makes things worse for certain people. I'm sorry to those low level characters that this might affect. Perhaps in the future we should all simply stop posting for a moment and take a step back in order to evaluate what it is that we are arguing about.
|
That's reasonable, but could (and as I'm talking hypothetically, I feel it's OK to stretch the bounds of likelyhood a bit) lead to having to declare a character as 'dead' when it's in exactly the same state as it was when it started the session and was considered to be acceptable.
This is the perfect example of how things get in a mess because people refuse to apply a bit of common sense to the rules, forcing the Organisers (i.e. Mike Brock) to make a black-or-white ruling.
The only way they don't make enough cash in your scenario to resolve the condition is if they die at or before encounter #2. And then its a moot point.
|
|
I did and then he did exactly as you suggested. I was ignored because I didn't have a citation. Mike clarified.
Then the slew of silly questions started.
So pending thought on how a simple yet all inclusive rule can be made, the strict ruling was necessary for fear of continuing lack of common sense.
So pending thought on how a simple yet all inclusive rule can be made, the strict ruling was necessary for fear of continuing lack of common sense.
If it was common sense, why did it have to be made? Anyways, a strict ruling wasn't necessary. There are always alternatives, like just not answering the additional questions, or asking people what they would do.
|
|
So pending thought on how a simple yet all inclusive rule can be made, the strict ruling was necessary for fear of continuing lack of common sense.If it was common sense, why did it have to be made? Anyways, a strict ruling wasn't necessary. There are always alternatives, like just not answering the additional questions, or asking people what they would do.
Just because some refuse to observe common sense does not mean it was not common sense. Mike Brock declared it common sense on Baleful Polymorph and then made the strict ruling when continued questions lacked common sense.
Ignoring further questions doesnt solve the problem
Just because some refuse to observe common sense does not mean it was not common sense. Mike Brock declared it common sense on Baleful Polymorph and then made the strict ruling when continued questions lacked common sense.
Ignoring further questions doesnt solve the problem
Oh, he has the power to declare something common sense? I thought the point of the term was that you shouldn't have to.
And it doesn't always solve a problem no, but sometimes a ruling can create a problem. Asking for other ideas is another great alternative.
|
|
The fact that this discussion even took place really boggles my mind, and now because of it we have a blanket ruling that actually makes things worse for certain people. I'm sorry to those low level characters that this might affect. Perhaps in the future we should all simply stop posting for a moment and take a step back in order to evaluate what it is that we are arguing about.
Did you even read the conversation? At all? People were reading the rules two ways
Part of the guide said all conditions must be cleared, see chapter 5.
A) Some people were reading the The part that said "see chapter 5" as all conditions must be cleared or you're dead before Mike's ruling.
B) Chapter 5 said all conditions must be resolved, not cleared. Please make sure the conditions you haven't cleared are written legibly for the next dm.
I asked which way was right so that people didn't get blind sided by not having enough cash in reserve to come back from the dead and get the restorations in case the DM read it with the A interpretation.
So no, I don't need to stop and think about what the argument is. I don't need to stop posting and reflect on whats being asked.
|
|
The fact that this discussion even took place really boggles my mind, and now because of it we have a blanket ruling that actually makes things worse for certain people. I'm sorry to those low level characters that this might affect. Perhaps in the future we should all simply stop posting for a moment and take a step back in order to evaluate what it is that we are arguing about.Did you even read the conversation? At all? People were reading the rules two ways
Part of the guide said all conditions must be cleared, see chapter 5.
A) Some people were reading the The part that said "see chapter 5" as all conditions must be cleared or you're dead before Mike's ruling.
B) Chapter 5 said all conditions must be resolved, not cleared. Please make sure the conditions you haven't cleared are written legibly for the next dm.
I asked which way was right so that people didn't get blind sided by not having enough cash in reserve to come back from the dead and get the restorations in case the DM read it with the A interpretation.
So no, I don't need to stop and think about what the argument is. I don't need to stop posting and reflect on whats being asked.
And your arguing your point to read strict rules as written to completely fly in the face of all common sense is one of the reasons the strict ruling was made. Trying to justify your arguments doesnt mitigate your culpability here.
|
|
And your arguing your point to read strict rules as written to completely fly in the face of all common sense is one of the reasons the strict ruling was made. Trying to justify your arguments doesnt mitigate your culpability here.The fact that this discussion even took place really boggles my mind, and now because of it we have a blanket ruling that actually makes things worse for certain people. I'm sorry to those low level characters that this might affect. Perhaps in the future we should all simply stop posting for a moment and take a step back in order to evaluate what it is that we are arguing about.Did you even read the conversation? At all? People were reading the rules two ways
Part of the guide said all conditions must be cleared, see chapter 5.
A) Some people were reading the The part that said "see chapter 5" as all conditions must be cleared or you're dead before Mike's ruling.
B) Chapter 5 said all conditions must be resolved, not cleared. Please make sure the conditions you haven't cleared are written legibly for the next dm.
I asked which way was right so that people didn't get blind sided by not having enough cash in reserve to come back from the dead and get the restorations in case the DM read it with the A interpretation.
So no, I don't need to stop and think about what the argument is. I don't need to stop posting and reflect on whats being asked.
This pretty much just proves the entire point I was making.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, except the entire issue here could have been resolved with a simple "you must clear baleful polymorph at the end of the game" response, maybe included a link to it in the clarifications sticky, and the whole thing could have been resolved without overly draconian ruling that overall hurts the players more than it should.So no, he wasn't forced. He simply decided that heading off any future questions like this was more important than avoiding the problems this ruling caused. That's his prerogative, but I can't say it doesn't disappoint me.
I thought the entire issue here could have been resolved with a simple "you must clear baleful polymorph at the end of the game" response also. Here is a LINK for you since I guess you missed it.
|
|
And it is easy as chipping in 150g or 1 PP to get Remove Curse on you.
This is true, as long as you can make a caster level check vs. the Save DC of the curse.
Since all purchases of spellcasting services (much like purchasing potions or scrolls or wands) are considered at minimum level, the maximum caster level you'll get is 5th. As such, you get to roll a d20 +5 to remove the curse. In many cases, this may be worse than your character's actual saving throw.
If the roll fails, the spell fails, and you'd have to spend another 150gp or 1PP to try again.
|
|
If you pay for a spell, and the spell fails because the caster wasn't experienced enough, isn't that grounds for a refund? At the very least, I'm filling out a very negative comment card before I leave.
Nah, they all have these long contracts you gotta fill out in triplicate that indicate that the spells aren't guaranteed to work.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you pay for a spell, and the spell fails because the caster wasn't experienced enough, isn't that grounds for a refund? At the very least, I'm filling out a very negative comment card before I leave.Nah, they all have these long contracts you gotta fill out in triplicate that indicate that the spells aren't guaranteed to work.
+1
This is why the Church of Abadar is so well funded.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
This thread was an interesting read, as I had a character that got Baleful Polymorphed into a monkey (tiny) and played in 4 adventures as a monkey. He was a melee combatant, and aside from losing flanking, reach, and sneak attack I didn't take that much of a hit to effectiveness.
I finally found a player willing to hang with me after session and cast 21 successive castings of Dispel Magic until he succeeded on the roll to Dispel Magic it. There wasn't anyone in the group when I got the affliction that could dispel it.
If I paid for the 21 castings, it would have cost me 4,410 gp. I've had VC tell me since then that one use of the PP Dispel Magic would clear it, but I can't find the rule that agrees with that in 4.3 rules.
So with the new ruling, I would have had to pay the 4,410 gp or pay the cost of a Raise Dead? Since no one in the party could have fixed it at the end of the session.
|
|
So with the new ruling, I would have had to pay the 4,410 gp or pay the cost of a Raise Dead? Since no one in the party could have fixed it at the end of the session.
Why do you ask questions this way? Of course you don't have to pay 4410 gp or a raise dead. You also don't have to pay for a wish or a miracle. Why not ask that as well?!
What was the caster level of the BP? 9? Worst case there is paying a 19th level caster for a break enchantment which costs.... wait for it... 950 gp. Guaranteed success! Pay a 9th level caster 450 gp and they have a 50% chance of being successful.
p.s. Also not sure how being a 1 HD monkey didn't affect your ability to go into melee...
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Why do you ask questions this way?
What was the caster level of the BP? 9? Worst case there is paying a 19th level caster for a break enchantment which costs.... wait for it... 950 gp.
p.s. Also not sure how being a 1 HD monkey
Sorry I asked it in a confusing way. It isn't entirely clear you can ask for a spell to be cast at above "PFS" levels (so level 20 casting sounds odd.) But the real answer is I didn't think of paying for a high caster level casting.
It was a 10th level caster.
I was an Unarmed Strike Monk/Fighter/Rogue. I lost Rogue, -2 STR, Reach, Threaten, and 1d10 -> 1d6 Damage Dice. But I started with 22 STR and gained +4 Dexterity and +3 AC. I still did 1d6+18 damage.
PP expenditure does not make the spell-casting automatic ... gets you minimum caster level.
Exactly what I thought, but I've had two VC's tell me it is "automatic" in the past. /shrug
I didn't go this route, so it is a mute point.
|
Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
|
Holy Necromancy Batman
The wording in the guide has changed in minor ways over the years but...
• Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous
duration that heal damage, repair damage, or remove
harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of
the adventure.
• Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during
an adventure remain until healed and carry over
from adventure to adventure (except as noted under
Conditions, Death, and Expendables on page 18).
• A character can have one each of the following spells
on an item or items that carries over from adventure
to adventure: continual flame, masterwork transformation
(Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic228), secret chest, and
secret page.
Baleful polymorph is a harmful spell so it falls under the second point point, but even if it wasn't a harmful spell it is not mentioned in point 3 which make it have to get cleared shoving it back to point 2. In no way does it fit into point 1 since it doesn't heal damage or remove harmful conditions.
|
|
Go ahead and google "Songbird of Doom".
Also note that baleful polymorph can easily be cast by allies as well, not just enemies.
The original songbird of doom doesn't work because the master of man styles got it's dipping nerfed, but there's a few variations on it that still work.
-Halfling with a potion of reduce person and accelerated drinker.
-Foxform kitsune
-Druid
-ring of seven lovely colors.
-skinwalker in bat form
Absoloms most adorable bundle of fluffy death here (click for build) has definitely been fun to play.
|
|
Has the ruling on this changed or been relaxed due to common sense?
It's been kept in place to prevent a few edge-casers from exploiting it for purposes that might reduce the enjoyment of other players.
Many of the PFS-specific rulings are because some very smart person has come up with a way to make an effect do something it was not intended to do. Which can result in a more powerful character and a less difficult challenge than the writers and developers intended. Since PFS strives for a comparable play experience in every running, GMs are not allowed to up the challenges to meet increased player power.
You are right that in many cases the change wouldn't have much mechanical impact. Possibly even a slightly negative impact. But a blanket rule stops all those edge cases.
If I remember, the ruling was last revised specifically to prevent a mass of players who wanted to continue their Pathfinder careers as squirrels.
If I remember, the ruling was last revised specifically to prevent a mass of players who wanted to continue their Pathfinder careers as squirrels....without joining the Druids local.
Druids are at best... part time squirrel scabs.
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I had an old Champions character, Fiendish Flying Squirrel. Is there a shapeshifting vigilante? I would love to do a vigilante who shapeshifts into a squirrel in PFS.
If not... this could be what would tip me over into trying a druid!
Squirrel!
Hmm
|
Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Start small...or is that tiny?
Get a squirrel familiar and take Share Shape as a spell.
In order to be able to speak in that shape you would need to be a druid with the proper feats, an arcanist with the proper exploits, or have a Ring of Eloquence.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And there is also the Circlet of Speaking that allows an animal to speak as well, if you get stuck in that shape. Which isn't gonna happen, but I had to point that out.
That item is banned in PFS.
Probably because they don't want the poor beleaguered animal companions complaining about what they have to go through.
Although I'm happy to say that every critter i saw at gencon had Druids local 704 approved barding on
|
|
And there is also the Circlet of Speaking that allows an animal to speak as well, if you get stuck in that shape. Which isn't gonna happen, but I had to point that out.
That item is banned in PFS.
Probably because they don't want the poor beleaguered animal companions complaining about what they have to go through.
Although I'm happy to say that every critter i saw at gencon had Druids local 704 approved barding on
Just as a curiosity, what is the approved barding, if I may ask?
