Wut?
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Yes, if you look in the back of the Core Rulebook, baleful polymorph is listed as a curse under afflictions. It should be treated as a curse, and so remove curse is required to remove the condition.
EDIT: And because it is an affliction, it must be resolved at the end of a scenario, or your character will be reported/recorded as being dead.
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If your party member cast it on you so you could do something scary with a sneak attacking dex abusing raccoon with an Agile amulet of mighty fists, no.
If you got squirreled by the big bad, then yes, its a condition you need to clear, but dispel magic will get of it just fine.
dispel magic does not dispel baleful polymorph as it is a curse.
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dispel magic does not dispel baleful polymorph as it is a curse.If your party member cast it on you so you could do something scary with a sneak attacking dex abusing raccoon with an Agile amulet of mighty fists, no.
If you got squirreled by the big bad, then yes, its a condition you need to clear, but dispel magic will get of it just fine.
As awesome as that would be for my druid, nothing in the spell indicates that. Its merely permanent duration spell and that means it can be dispelled. There might be some funny curse effects that do the same thing, or baleful polymorph is on a list of things you need to get cleared up, but it is not itself a curse.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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yes it is, it is listed in the back of the CRB as a curse under afflictions.
Yes, but I don't see anything there suggesting that dispel magic wouldn't work against a curse that happens to also be a spell. Not even game balance considerations would make a case against it, seeing as dispel magic and remove curse are the same spell level. Am I missing something, perhaps from another part of the CRB?
yes it is, it is listed in the back of the CRB as a curse under afflictions.
The spell itself is not a curse though. If I remember correctly, a long time ago I read that as a plot device it can be a curse, but as a spell it oddly is not. The spell itself has a duration and doesn't say it can't be dispelled.
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Hmmm...
I am inclined to say that dispel magic would work on it. Mainly because the only other curse based spell (bestow curse) has this
"The curse bestowed by this spell cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell."
Baleful polymorph may be listed as an example of a curse in the glossary but it doesn't have the same wording as bestow curse does. Thus, dispel magic should work on it. However, since it is an affliction it will last through the scenario and must be dealt with at the end of said scenario.
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Guide 4.3 reworded it. Even if it is a non-con damaging affliction, the Society will not send you on a mission if you are diseased, have a poison wracked body, or are cursed in some way that makes you nearly non-functional or potentially dangerous to your team.
You must clear these afflictions before the end of a scenario, or you are reported as dead.
no, no you could not do that.
In PFS, your options for permanent things to take with your character are limited by what's written in the book.
If you want a squirrel familiar, use the squirrel the book provides.
It wouldn't work in home-PFS either. Familiar stats are fixed there too, and none of them resemble an elephant.
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I believe it was a recent change BNW. (verison 4? 4.2?)
Can you reference the paragraph? I don't see anything that would keep you from carrying an affliction over if it wasn't going to kill you. A fighter may very well take a point of charisma damage and say "meh, I'll pay for a restoration after i've taken a few more"
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"Note: Any diseases or afflictions a PC has obtained must
be resolved at the table once the game ends as explained
in Chapter 5 of this document. "Pg. 39
which sends me back to
Conditions, Death, and Expendables
When playing your own character, all conditions
(including death) not resolved within the scenario
or module carry beyond the end of the adventure.
Likewise, any wealth spent or resources expended
during the course of the adventure are tracked and must
be recorded on the Chronicle sheet.
All diseases must be resolved at the table. The character will either be cured or dead. (BNW note, unless the disease deals con damage, its a statistical certainty that you'll recover) Diseases which result in a
character’s ability score (aside from Constitution) being
reduced to 0 must be cured or the character will become
unplayable. An unplayable character should be marked as dead when reporting the session. See additional rules under
Dealing with Afflictions in Chapter 7 of this document
It seems like the only thing that would kill you is getting an ability dropped to zero. Being squirreled would not.
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Guide 4.3 reworded it. Even if it is a non-con damaging affliction, the Society will not send you on a mission if you are diseased, have a poison wracked body, or are cursed in some way that makes you nearly non-functional or potentially dangerous to your team.
You must clear these afflictions before the end of a scenario, or you are reported as dead.
Don't you love inaccuracies?
After all, there is at least one scenario which intentionally leaves PCs with a curse, and a potential alignment change.
Note that, depending on the C's original alignment, even the Atonement is optional...
I guess, if Andrew had GMed the scenario, my PC would be permanently retired, since one of the evil auras comes form an item that is cursed so it cannot be removed without a Remove Curse...
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Guide 4.3 reworded it. Even if it is a non-con damaging affliction, the Society will not send you on a mission if you are diseased, have a poison wracked body, or are cursed in some way that makes you nearly non-functional or potentially dangerous to your team.
You must clear these afflictions before the end of a scenario, or you are reported as dead.
so, with the above quote, as long as I am mostly functional and am not dangerous to my team, I am ok to keep what ever curse I still carry.
which means using this spell on my familiar is still a viable option.
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so, I cud use it on an elephant, turn it into squirrel, and take said squirrel as my familiar.
awesome! thank you
You can't for a few reasons.
1) You can't start with an elephant familiar because they're not an allowed option
2) Your baleful polymorphs go away at the end of the adventure: the only spells you're allowed to carry over are a masterwork transformation, a continual flame, a secret page, and a magic chest.
3) there's some possible mechanical effects from this, the most hilarious of which would be walking into an anti magic zone and suddenly being squashed by an elephant.
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It seems like the only thing that would kill you is getting an ability dropped to zero. Being squirreled would not.
Would you allow a player who was baleful polymorphed into a squirrel last scenario to play the next scenario as a squirrel? I wouldn't and so sometime between the end of the last scenario and the beginning of the next the player should resolve the affliction. It's easier for the previous GM to do it rather than relying upon the next GM to look at the chronicle and force the issue.
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Would you allow a player who was baleful polymorphed into a squirrel last scenario to play the next scenario as a squirrel?
It seems like the only thing that would kill you is getting an ability dropped to zero. Being squirreled would not.
Sure. After a good long wth? and seeing it on the chronicle sheet that last sessions evil wizard in dungeon zapped him. If a party member druid zapped him he goes back to normal.
Not the weirdest thing I've seen gaming.
I wouldn't and so sometime between the end of the last scenario and the beginning of the next the player should resolve the affliction.
I don't see anything in the rules that can compel me to force a player to clear anything except an ability score at zero, being dead, or a disease/poison (which is just going to run its course). A poison or disease that still requires die rolls is something that needs to be resolved, missing a point of charisma or getting in touch with your inner marmoset is not.
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Guide 4.3 reworded it. Even if it is a non-con damaging affliction, the Society will not send you on a mission if you are diseased, have a poison wracked body, or are cursed in some way that makes you nearly non-functional or potentially dangerous to your team.
You must clear these afflictions before the end of a scenario, or you are reported as dead.
Don't you love inaccuracies?
After all, there is at least one scenario which intentionally leaves PCs with a curse, and a potential alignment change.
Note that, depending on the C's original alignment, even the Atonement is optional...
** spoiler omitted **
Wow. The only inaccuracy here is your assumption that I don't follow the rules.
If the scenario says otherwise you follow the scenario. If not follow the guide.
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"Note: Any diseases or afflictions a PC has obtained must
be resolved at the table once the game ends as explained
in Chapter 5 of this document. "Pg. 39
which sends me back to
Conditions, Death, and Expendables
When playing your own character, all conditions
(including death) not resolved within the scenario
or module carry beyond the end of the adventure.
Likewise, any wealth spent or resources expended
during the course of the adventure are tracked and must
be recorded on the Chronicle sheet.
All diseases must be resolved at the table. The character will either be cured or dead. (BNW note, unless the disease deals con damage, its a statistical certainty that you'll recover) Diseases which result in a
character’s ability score (aside from Constitution) being
reduced to 0 must be cured or the character will become
unplayable. An unplayable character should be marked as dead when reporting the session. See additional rules under
Dealing with Afflictions in Chapter 7 of this documentIt seems like the only thing that would kill you is getting an ability dropped to zero. Being squirreled would not.
Accept that all afflictions must be resolved , a curse is an affliction, and [i]baleful polymorph is a curse. Mike has already ruled that you can't be a pathfinder as a squirrel, therefore if it isn't resolved by the end of the session you are reported as dead.
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Accept that all afflictions must be resolved , a curse is an affliction, and [i]baleful polymorph is a curse. Mike has already ruled that you can't be a pathfinder as a squirrel, therefore if it isn't resolved by the end of the session you are reported as dead."Note: Any diseases or afflictions a PC has obtained must
be resolved at the table once the game ends as explained
in Chapter 5 of this document. "Pg. 39
which sends me back to
Conditions, Death, and Expendables
When playing your own character, all conditions
(including death) not resolved within the scenario
or module carry beyond the end of the adventure.
Likewise, any wealth spent or resources expended
during the course of the adventure are tracked and must
be recorded on the Chronicle sheet.
All diseases must be resolved at the table. The character will either be cured or dead. (BNW note, unless the disease deals con damage, its a statistical certainty that you'll recover) Diseases which result in a
character’s ability score (aside from Constitution) being
reduced to 0 must be cured or the character will become
unplayable. An unplayable character should be marked as dead when reporting the session. See additional rules under
Dealing with Afflictions in Chapter 7 of this documentIt seems like the only thing that would kill you is getting an ability dropped to zero. Being squirreled would not.
Resolved =/= cured. Sorry.
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Sure. After a good long wth? and seeing it on the chronicle sheet that last sessions evil wizard in dungeon zapped him. If a party member druid zapped him he goes back to normal.Not the weirdest thing I've seen gaming.
Ahh, Pathfinders! Excellent! For this next mission you will need....wait....is that a squirrel in the corner? Who let a squirrel into my office? Shoo...Out....Get. For crying out loud, I don't have time for this. ::Zap!:: As I was saying, for this next mission....
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Sure. After a good long wth? and seeing it on the chronicle sheet that last sessions evil wizard in dungeon zapped him. If a party member druid zapped him he goes back to normal.Not the weirdest thing I've seen gaming.
Ahh, Pathfinders! Excellent! For this next mission you will need....wait....is that a squirrel in the corner? Who let a squirrel into my office? Shoo...Out....Get. For crying out loud, I don't have time for this. ::Zap!:: As I was saying, for this next mission....
Dreng would probably think he'd just acquired another druid on the roster....
"Huh. Weird. He didn't look druish..."
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The rules I am reading appear to suggest that you only have to resolve diseases or be reported dead. It says nothing about being required to remove curses or other effects that carry over to the next scenario. The quoted passage appears to support that notion. Why does it even say that conditions carry over to the next scenario if you have to resolve it or die? I also see no reason that you can't use dispel magic on baleful polymorph. The spell doesn't say it is immune to dispel magic. It is still a spell while it is in effect. It definitely would not be wise to buy a dispel magic over a remove curse as the remove curse is more likely to succeed, but it doesn't seem like anything is stopping you from doing so.
That being said, it would be unwise to adventure as a polymorphed creature. You would not have access to any of your equipment for one. No drinking potions for you, no using manufactured weapons, no using spells, extraordinary abilities, supernatural abilities, or spell-like abilities. That means virtually every class feature anyone could have becomes unusable. Go ahead and look, just about every class is defined by the extraordinary/supernatural abilities they possess. No rage, no bardic knowledge, no channel energy, no animal companions(yes animal companion is an extraordinary ability), no flurry, no smite, no favored enemy, no bloodline abilities, no arcane school abilities.
Baleful polymorph severely gimps just about any character I can think of that gets hit by it. Why anyone would want to keep it as a permanent effect, I cannot understand. I don't believe it is correct though, to say that you must resolve the condition or be reported dead. Nothing in the guide appears to support that, unless I am missing a post from campaign leadership. A cursory search didn't turn up anything.
Why anyone would want to keep it as a permanent effect, I cannot understand.
Some people are just squirrelly I guess.
Anyways... Probably best to have it resolved and cured. It can be a detriment to the next party that has you because you happen to lose quite a bit. It also is a little bit odd, to you know, somehow live your life as a squirrel and pathfinder when most of the population can't talk to you or recognize you. Not that I haven't seen weirder...
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Robert - I agree, mostly, diseases that can/will result in you dropping to a 0 score make you unplayable, and must be cured. Anything else that doesn't make you unplayable does not necessarily need to be cured. Resolved =/= cured.
However, you're over-doing the hindrances of Baleful Polymorph:
You would not have access to any of your equipment for one. No drinking potions for you, no using manufactured weapons, no using spells, Yes, all true.
extraordinary abilities, supernatural abilities, or spell-like abilities. That means virtually every class feature anyone could have becomes unusable. Not sure where you get this from.
Go ahead and look, just about every class is defined by the extraordinary/supernatural abilities they possess. No rage, no bardic knowledge, no channel energy, no animal companions(yes animal companion is an extraordinary ability), no flurry, no smite, no favored enemy, no bloodline abilities, no arcane school abilities.
Polymorph removes abilities that depend on the form, not all they possess.
Rage? No problem. Bardic Knowledge - hard to share. Channel Energy would require a holy symbol. Animal Companions no problem. Flurry no problem (though a squirrel's unarmed strike is pretty low damage). Smite, Favored Enemy no problems. Bloodline will work mostly. Arcane School abilities should just about all work.
Edit:
Overall, it's a severe hindrance for most classes, although I could see a Witch playing just fine with Hexes only actually. If you happen to know both Silent and Still Spell, and Eschew Materials or spells without material components, you could actually cast a few spells too.
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Majuba, read the spell:
If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.
Just like Robert said. Where were you getting that "only remove abilities that depend on the form" idea?
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Presumably Mujaba was speaking of a victim who had missed the fort save but made the will save. If someone's missed the will save as well then yes they're pretty useless on the adventure. The only reason not to clear it then would be either because you don't have the cash and/or you're hoping someone in the next group will throw you a free dispel.
Now pictures a squirrel in a pointy hat chittering maniacally at things...
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This is all a moot point. Mike Brock has already ruled that baleful polymorph must be completely cleared (whether you made the Will save or not). And as per the rule of other afflictions, it must be cleared before the end of your scenario, or you will be reported as dead.
I am unable to find such a post. I searched his profile's posts to no avail. Could you enlighten us with a link to this? The guide only says that diseases have to be cured, not all afflictions. It says conditions carry over to the next scenario.
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The guide says on page 39 that all diseases and other afflictions must be resolved.
Baleful polymorph is listed as a curse under afflictions in the back of the Core Rule Book.
Why would this not be considered one of the afflictions that have to be resolved at the end of a scenario, when it is listed as an affliction and page 39 indicates "other afflictions?"
I also cannot find the thread where Mike said it, but I do know that he did: 100% sure.
I don't know why folks feel the guide isn't specific enough, when it says "other afflictions" but perhaps Mike will come in and clarify.
The guide says on page 39 that all diseases and other afflictions must be resolved.
Baleful polymorph is listed as a curse under afflictions in the back of the Core Rule Book.
Why would this not be considered one of the afflictions that have to be resolved at the end of a scenario, when it is listed as an affliction and page 39 indicates "other afflictions?"
I also cannot find the thread where Mike said it, but I do know that he did: 100% sure.
I don't know why folks feel the guide isn't specific enough, when it says "other afflictions" but perhaps Mike will come in and clarify.
Just because you're putting it quotes, I'll note that the phrase "other afflictions" does not appear in the cited text.
Pg 39 says that all diseases and afflictions must be resolved as described in chapter 5.
So we look to chapter five to see how they must be resolved.
Chapter 5 says that all conditions carry over into the next adventure with the exception of most diseases (which cure naturally), diseases which will kill you (which must be cured), and effects that would reduce an ability score to 0 (which must be removed).
Baleful polymorph falls under none of the three exceptions, therefore falling under the general rule that all conditions carry over.
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If Mike Brock has ruled otherwise, that's well and good. But until someone finds that post, it's written that barring a few stated exceptions that baleful polymorph does not fall into, all conditions carry over.
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Ok, let me put it simply.
I know that many of the V-O's will likely agree, and I know that Mike Brock agrees...
The Pathfinder Society will not send mice or squirrels or chickens on missions.
If as a player you want to twist the rules to try and sit at a table as a vermin or small animal, As the GM I will ask you to play a different character. If you refuse, I'll ask you to leave the table.
It really is as simple as that.
But regardless what Chapter 5 says, page 39 says that afflictions must be resolved.
The afflictions that carry over like bestow curse, that give you a -6 to an ability or something like that, allow you to still largely function as whatever your character is.
But baleful polymorph is not one of those afflictions that carry over.
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I guess the reason I am questioning it is because it has rules for conditions that carry over to the next scenario. I can't wrap my head around why they would even bother to write rules for conditions carrying over, or clearing them in another scenario if they have to be resolved at the table. It just seems weird that you could get hit with bestow curse and be required to clear it or be marked dead. Would a negative level be considered an affliction? If someone gets raised but can't dispel the two negative levels are they still dead?
What makes something an affliction? The baleful polymorph affliction in the CRB says it transforms you into a lizard. Is that talking about a trap? BP can transform you into any small critter. If they clarify these points in the updated guide, it'd be great. As it stands though, there appears to be conflicting rules.
But regardless what Chapter 5 says, page 39 says that afflictions must be resolved.
It says they must be resolved "as explained in Chapter 5".
There is simply no way to make the page 39 text mean that all conditions must be removed at end of the game, when the page 39 text explicitly sublimates itself to the chapter 5 rules that say all conditions (in general) carry over.
If you want to override the rules as written, that's between you and the people running the events. Maybe they're ok with it. Maybe there's a ruling that's been made but not quoted. Regardless, the rules simply do not say what you claim.
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But regardless what Chapter 5 says, page 39 says that afflictions must be resolved.
It says they must be resolved "as explained in Chapter 5".
There is simply no way to make the page 39 text mean that all conditions must be removed at end of the game, when the page 39 text explicitly sublimates itself to the chapter 5 rules that say all conditions (in general) carry over.
If you want to override the rules as written, that's between you and the people running the events. Maybe they're ok with it. Maybe there's a ruling that's been made but not quoted. Regardless, the rules simply do not say what you claim.
Mike has clarified above. Perhaps now this argument can die an ignominious death.
It is clearly noted in the Guide that the Pathfinder Society won't be sending Pathfinders with Leprosy or Cackle Fever on missions.Why would it be any different for a character who basically can't function because they are a chicken, squirrel or rabbit?
The issue has been resolved with a ruling, but I'll just answer this because it's a funny story.
We had a relatively useless party member. Not very optimized not very useful.
Eventually the player left. We decided that due to some poor decisions he'd made we'd be better off with him as a monkey.
So *poof* baleful polymorph into a monkey. The monkey then promptly devoured our wizard's face, evaded the entire party's attempts to capture him, leapt out a window, and made it halfway to the treeline before finally failing a will-save to a sleep spell.
It was the most effective that particular character had been all game.
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Ok, let me put it simply.
I know that many of the V-O's will likely agree, and I know that Mike Brock agrees...
The Pathfinder Society will not send mice or squirrels or chickens on missions.
Andrew, gotta disagree with this one. Must. No choice.
Does the Pathfinder Society send Druids on missions?
Yes.
At 5th level (archetype variable), a Druid gains Wildshape. As the Druid levels up, the variety of sizes and types of forms avaialble widens.
At some point, there is every chance that the Pathfinder Society is sending a bat, a pig, a scorpion, a fire elemental, or several different types of cat on missions.
Note that you have to include the list of familiars, as well as animal companions and wildshapes.
I know that I have gone on at least one mission with a wolf, and several where there was at least one dog. One where there were two large cats, one was the Druid and the other was his AC.
I have even been on at least one mission where the VC sent an Imp on the mission.
And this is in an area that is a bit ... Wizard-light. YMMV.
So, are mice, chickens or squirrels on either the familiar or animal companion lists? If so, then they have, almost certainly, been sent on PFS missions.
[/end derail]
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Ok, let me put it simply.
I know that many of the V-O's will likely agree, and I know that Mike Brock agrees...
The Pathfinder Society will not send mice or squirrels or chickens on missions.
Andrew, gotta disagree with this one. Must. No choice.
Does the Pathfinder Society send Druids on missions?
Yes.
At 5th level (archetype variable), a Druid gains Wildshape. As the Druid levels up, the variety of sizes and types of forms avaialble widens.
At some point, there is every chance that the Pathfinder Society is sending a bat, a pig, a scorpion, a fire elemental, or several different types of cat on missions.
Note that you have to include the list of familiars, as well as animal companions and wildshapes.
I know that I have gone on at least one mission with a wolf, and several where there was at least one dog. One where there were two large cats, one was the Druid and the other was his AC.
I have even been on at least one mission where the VC sent an Imp on the mission.
And this is in an area that is a bit ... Wizard-light. YMMV.
So, are mice, chickens or squirrels on either the familiar or animal companion lists? If so, then they have, almost certainly, been sent on PFS missions.
[/end derail]
Is this argument tongue in cheek?
Because if it isn't, shame on you!
You know what I meant.
Druid's are not always a squirrel, or whatever.
Familiars, mounts and animal companions are not the character, so they aren't being sent on a mission.