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Well, there you go.
My players were laughing their buts off a few months ago when I walked into the room. A few of them had decided to wage an 'AC war' with each other, trying to create builds that would boost their AC.
Fast forward a few months. While the Cleric, Alchemist, and Fighter are still amused with their AC war, everybody else (the Summoner, Sorcerer, and dedicated Archer) is a little bummed about it.
Why?
Because having a high AC is like carrying a great big sign: "IGNORE ME!"
Enemies run up to the high AC guys, and miss them, miss them...and then go for the people they know they can hit.
What does one do to combat this? As in, what classes, feats, spells, etc grant one the ability to say: Attack me, not them! We thought the Armiger class from Super Genius would be good at doing this, but after reviewing it (mind you, quickly), it seems to only exasperate this problem.
Thoughts?
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Benefit: You can make Diplomacy and Intimidate checks to make creatures respond to you with hostility. No matter which skill you use, antagonizing a creature takes a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and has a DC equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier. You cannot make this check against a creature that does not understand you or has an Intelligence score of 3 or lower. Before you make these checks, you may make a Sense Motive check (DC 20) as a swift action to gain an insight bonus on these Diplomacy or Intimidate checks equal to your Charisma bonus until the end of your next turn. The benefits you gain for this check depend on the skill you use. This is a mind-affecting effect.
Diplomacy: You fluster your enemy. For the next minute, the target takes a –2 penalty on all attacks rolls made against creatures other than you and has a 10% spell failure chance on all spells that do not target you or that have you within their area of effect.
Intimidate: The creature flies into a rage. On its next turn, the target must attempt to make a melee attack against you, make a ranged attack against you, target you with a spell, or include you in the area of a spell. The effect ends if the creature is prevented from attacking you or attempting to do so would harm it (for example, if you are on the other side of a chasm or a wall of fire). If it cannot attack you on its turn, you may make the check again as an immediate action to extend the effect for 1 round (but cannot extend it thereafter). The effect ends as soon as the creature attacks you. Once you have targeted a creature with this ability, you cannot target it again for 1 day.
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Not quite what you're looking for, but have you considered throwing things at the High AC dudes that CAN hit them?
Wraiths are always fun.
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So let's get this straight.
They've built their characters to have a TON of AC and to not be hit. That's what they find fun. That's what they want to get out of this game.
Then the GM decided to invalidate those choices and the characters by just ignoring them?
That's not particularly fun.
Anytime a response is 'Well, just ignore them!' when it comes to high defensive abilities, one really needs to consider what effect that will have on the fun of the player who chose those options in the first place. Realism should really take a backseat to fun, if they are at odds.
So my thoughts are to not ignore them. Tear down that sign, Mr. Goblin 85.
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The thing is...the GM needs to have fun too.
Having a PC that needs a Nat 20 for any monster to hit is frustrating and annoying.
It goes both ways on the fun thing.
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Unrelated to my previous post, the notion that a monster will attack something for 6 seconds, notice that everything missed, and not continue to try for a bit longer is sort of foreign to me. I mean, in my experiences, PCs at least go 2 or 3 rounds before they are sure they can't really hit the enemy. Or they keep on going for natural 20s. They don't just immediately switch gears at the first hint of failure.
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Of course. You need to balance having fun for everyone around. And that includes not always ignoring people who devoted their characters to having high defenses, as well as giving the squishes some scares now and then.
I had an armiger in a game I ran. He had an absurdly high AC, such that almost nothing could hit him. But that's what the player found fun. He enjoyed being the untouchable dwarf. So I made sure he wasn't being ignored by enemies, and would sometimes just throw extra monsters into the encounter just for him to tangle up.
At first, I was ignoring him after one round of misses, for precisely the issues outlined above. And then I had a revelation that that wasn't as fun for everyone and that it needed to be a balance. And that saying 'ignore them!' wasn't really a valid response to complaints about high defense, just like any other response about invalidating significant portions of characters is against the spirit of the game.
Unrelated to my previous post, the notion that a monster will attack something for 6 seconds, notice that everything missed, and not continue to try for a bit longer is sort of foreign to me. I mean, in my experiences, PCs at least go 2 or 3 rounds before they are sure they can't really hit the enemy. Or they keep on going for natural 20s. They don't just immediately switch gears at the first hint of failure.
That's why NPCs aren't usually hero characters.
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A happy balance. Some monsters, particularly intelligent enemies who know how to recognize great armor and great defenses, will start the fight by attacking the easier targets even on the first round. Other monsters, especially mindless or animal intelligence enemies, will never figure it out and will chew on that guy's armor all day long. Yet others, somewhere in between, will give up after a few rounds and switch to an easier target.
Mix in other things that don't care about armor (incorporeals, AE spells, will-saves, swarms, etc.) and the GM can also find ways to actually do something to the super-armor guys.
Every fight should be different. The super-armor guys get to have their fun (being attacked and missed a lot) in some fights where they can really shine. But they get to be frustrated in other fights (not being attacked at all) where they can't shine, but at least they're still safe. And in some fights, they'll get shredded by an encounter that can affect them despite their armor.
This is a party issue not a DM one.
It's always in the best interest to pay close attention to positioning.In Pathfinder it's very possible to have a tank type character or two in front and the rest of the party in the back.
Simply limit access to the rest of the party by using walls and other obstacles to funnel the enemy.
The party needs to learn to fight battles where THEY have the upper hand instead of the enemy.
Sometimes this means drawing the enemy back into another room,sometimes it means pushing them back into a corner ect..
Now it's not always possible to do this and for those times the party needs to pre-make a game plan.Have Web spells and grease ect to limit exposure.Heck caltrops and marbles and flasks of oil can often be used.
firearms target touch ac only... hope those front liners got good dex
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I agree with Cheapy. I always found the "ignore them" option too metagamey. Especially with larger creatures prone to tempers. Or minions that are a bit too scared in the heat of battle and run. For larger creatures, like ogres, I always portrayed them as short-tempered and if they miss twice, they get mad and yell "Me crush tiny man like nut!" and attempt a sunder (provoking an attack of opportunity, but ogres don't care). For melee minions, it just doesn't make sense to me that they'd walk around the big armored guy to stab someone less armored. Hell, I think most minions would try and gang up on the armored guy or just run away. Archers I could see ignoring them. But yeah, "ignore the armored guy" screams metagame to me.
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The game is well into the 15th level; they ignore most touch attacks and incorporeal attacks. The Alchemist especially.
They're also not going up against mindless creatures. We're talking intelligent warlords, who know some advanced protips
I'm also not interested in hitting them. And neither are they interested in me inventing ways to hit them. Do you know how BORING it gets for everyone to have someone run up and slam their fists' uselessly against you? Yeah, it's awesome the first few times. Three months later, its boring.
And if I just gave them it, as in, the opponents just attacked them 'because', that'd be boring for everyone involved. They, like myself, love making builds to fix a problem. They're now scouring the books for solutions.
Antagonize, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still have their problems (but that's still pretty cool, thanks!) One requires a good Charisma and lots of skill points (and is useless against a lot of creatures) and the other requires a good Dexterity (which one, the Alchemist, has. I'll mention it to him!)
Is the problem hitting their AC, or is it also doing damage? Like, do they have good DR and all that other crap?
Because things like traps, sleep powders, etc might be the way to go. Just throwing that out there.
Just for fun, what level are these characters, and what ARE their ACs?
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Party placement is more a problem with the campaign. Wide open spaces and the like, with flying monsters, makes being tactical much harder. A month ago, my problem would have been:
How do you get the fighter into the sky?
But they solved that one pretty quickly (they pulled a 'reign of fire' by having the fighter ride the eidolon into the sky. It was pretty awesome, and creative!)
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The thing is though...YOU control their opponents. If THEY want the enemies to attack (and miss) them, and YOU want the enemies to attack (and miss) them, I'm not seeing the problem.
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Just for fun, what level are these characters, and what ARE their ACs?
Like I said, 15th.
Here is what their sheets say (so, without buffs):
Cleric: 40
Fighter: 32
Alchemist: 34
(And if you're curious)
Sorcerer: 21
Archer: 26
Summoner: 25
I forgot to add, my players aren't restricted to pathfinder books.
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The thing is though...YOU control their opponents. If THEY want the enemies to attack (and miss) them, and YOU want the enemies to attack (and miss) them, I'm not seeing the problem.
Again, if I just 'gave it to them' they'd be all disappointed. They want to build characters that give the enemies a reason to attack them.
Not: "Man, you suck DM! Why can't the opponents just attack us!"
That's fun, making a build do something you want it to, instead of just being handed the solution.
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Use tactics/positioning to make it hard for the monsters to move around/avoid the high AC characters.
The stand still feat can stop the monster from moving if it is hit when provoking from movement (such as trying to get around a high AC PC).
The easiest way to say "attack me" is to do lots of damage. The tricky part is balancing "enough damage" with "enough AC".
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First off determine if your AC war players are actually having fun with the game you are having or just with trolling you and the party with their AC war. If the AC war is truly becoming destructive and doesn't directly play into the game you are trying to play sit down and talk with them and get them to understand your position. After that you should be able to work something out. If they still want to war without heed for you or your players or don't get that they are messing with the team dynamic then it sounds like you need to set up situations where the other players will be helpful because AC wars are in distress. If you go with the latter here are some suggestions.
1.)Heat metal
2.) Warp Wood
3.)Murderous Command
4.)Burning disarm
5.)incorporeal creatures
6.)Bombs
7.)threaten the things they care about that aren't directly attached to them (cities, towns, important NPC's, etc.)
8.)Rust monster
9.)Use said rust monster to threaten any of the above things through comic mischief and it's hunger for delicious metals
10.)Use rust monster to nibble on their loot
11.)Allow other players who aren't ac heavy to enjoy defeating said monster with their own skills
12.)Kobolds, Goblins, or Mites with Rust monsters invade their town or lair and use the rust monsters to destroy the loots while the aforementioned nasties raid for what is REALLY VALUABLE (aka shiny non-metal things, food, awesome hats)
13.)Night raids while armor is off
14.)Run them out of food and strand them in the wilderness forcing them to hunt for food and rely on their other teammates
15.)Sunder
16.)Go survival Horror and start limiting resources. Follow this up with slow chipping away at supplies including weapons and armor. Full-plate isn't that good when you've been slowly melting and clawing it away with burning skeletons and brain eating zombies. Also I doubt any of them have invested in craft skills to repair their stuff
Hope that helps
Ever heard of Aid Another?
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Nah, they aren't being trolls. I get where they're coming from; high AC is AWESOME! And, unlike many other things, isn't THAT hard to achieve.
A lot of this has a lot to do with how agro and tanking are non-existent in Pathfinder. It's frustrating when every else in the party does well at their roles (Buffer, Debuffer, Talker, DPS, Skill Monkey, Blaster) because the game serves those roles well. But the tank kind of exists in a halfway category. Sure, you can rock your AC and HP, but when it comes to actually drawing enemy attacks, Pathfinder seems to do a poor job.
I won't lie, as we talked, 4ed came up. Their Fighter's abilities, right off the bat, do exactly what I'm talking about. "If you don't attack me, I'm going to hit you!" and "If you don't attack me, you get negatives!"
While I've offered to make these abilities, which switch over fairly easily, feats, they want to work with what already exists.
As I was trying to imply before, it's the GM that determines whether people catch aggro or not.
It can go both ways really. You COULD look at it as "Well they're tough to hit, smash the little guys!"...or it will just make as much sense to say "These guys are good! They're blocking all our hits! Focus fire on the big guys, they're the threat!"
Some of the suggestions here are good (the ones suggesting a change o tactics for the players), but that's all there is. At level 15 (I'm assuming they've applied their level ups first) they have a whopping TWO Feats left (not the Fighter), asking them to grab Feats like Antagonize or Stand Still is probably not a feasible option.
The thing is...the GM needs to have fun too.
Having a PC that needs a Nat 20 for any monster to hit is frustrating and annoying.
It goes both ways on the fun thing.
No it doesn't. The GM's job is to facilitate fun. Neither party's fun is more important than the other's. But a good GM's idea of fun should never be,"Prove I'm smarter/better than my friends by killing their characters." A good GM's idea of fun should be, "Engage and amaze my friends with my storytelling skills."
That isn't to say that you never throw hard encounters or play off your PC's weaknesses. That is one way you generate dramatic tension after all. But think of movies like 'Clash of the Titans.' The movie shows how awesome he is by allowing his strengths to shine. Are there foes that he can't just beat into submission? Yes, and the drama comes from us seeing what superhuman things our character is capable of and them watching none of his usual tactics work!
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Yes yes, that's all very nice...now tell me: Where in that post did I ever say anything even vaguely resembling "A GM should have fun by proving he's smarter and better than his friends by killing their characters"?
Ever heard of Aid Another?Yes. You can use your action to help boost any allies attack or AC. How do you propose my players use this to increase their chances of agro-ing?
It might not do any good at your level of play, but it can make mooks more likely to hit the characters with ultra-high AC. As for agro-ing, the PCs should consider things like reach + combat reflexes + stand still + combat patrol. Aside from that, the only class that I know of with built-in agro-ing abilities is a Cavalier of the Order of the Shield with the Honor Guard archetype, but that can't help you in your current situation.
Gunslingers at 5 paces.
I have a 16th level character with an AC of 39, he gets hit (not often but enough to notice).
Wall spells can control the direction enemies can reach melee from, funneling them to where they have to deal with the high AC players.
my 1st suggestion.
I understand you are looking for ways to make the high ac players BE attacked on their side of things, not for ways to threaten high ac players on the DM side of things.
Use 3.5 Edition Stand Still + THicket of Blades stance, + Defensive Sweep is the 1E solution.
This is called a 'lockdown' build. Basically, you give the enemy NO CHOICE but to attack you...because they can't move anywhere.
If they try to move, they provoke an AoO, you Stand Still them, they can't move. Welps, guess they are attacking you.
If they don't move, Defensive Sweep gives you an AoO on them, anyways...so you generate attacks for yourself and stop them from moving.
That's a very impressive AC for the cleric, near the standard max possible for a character (which is 43ish). Any chance you can list where his AC comes from?
==Aelryinth
Fighter could take the Iron Guards Glare stance from tome of battle if he wants monster angry with him. 2 feats, martial study and martial stance. Enemies he threatens that don't attack him take -4 on their attacks.
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Here is the tank build i built and used a while back. It was fun and for the most part forced enemies to focus on them or literally spend a ove action to move around there threaten area. Best part of the build is its attack mitigation and ability to pump a friend's ac.
-Race-
Human
-Classes-
Fighter (Lore Warden) 14/ Monk (Monk of the Four Winds / Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 2/ Ranger (Weapon and Shield) 2/ Rogue 2
-Stats-
STR 14 (+6 magic item) = 20
DEX 16 (+4 leveling)(+6 magic item) = 26
CON 15 (+2 racial)(+1 leveling) = 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 08
-Saves-
fort 22
ref 22
will 13
ac 47 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 55
touch 24 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 32
flat-footed 29
to hit with unarmed attacks with weapon finesse 26 (-4 combat expertise)(-1 fighting defensively) = 21
-Traits-
Threatening Defender
-Feat / Level Progression-
Ra01) Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
Ra02) Shield Focus
M 03) Elemental Fist, Dodge, Crane Style
M 04) Toughness, Deflect Arrows
F 05) Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike, Missile Shield
F 06) Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
F 07) Crane Wing
F 08) Saving Shield
F 09) Bodyguard
F 10) Crane Riposte
F 11) Draconic Defender
F 12) Greater Shield Focus
F 13) Disruptive
F 14) Spellbreaker
F 15) Pin Down
F 16) Ray Shield
F 17) Mobility
F 18) Spring Attack
Ro19) Whirlwind Attack
Ro20) Talent - Combat Trick (Weapon Specialization Unarmed Strike)
-Magic Gear-
Bracers of Armor(+8)
Mithril Heavy Shield (+5 Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflection)
Ring of Protection (+5)
Ring of Regeneration
Amulet of Natural Armor(+5)
Belt of Physical Might (+6 str / +6 dex)
Cloak of Resistance (+5)
-Tanking Method-
Fight with caster standing behind u since any thing that enters ur threaten area will not be able to exit ur threaten are via Stand Still and Pin Down as well all incoming missile attacks would veer towards u via Arrow Catching. When making an attack action fight defensively and use combat expertise to up personal ac and grant 1 adjacent party member a natural armor bonus equal to the dodge bonus from combat expertise and fighting defensively via Draconic Defender. Use AoO to grant aid another ac to an adjacent party member via Bodyguard and an immediate action grant shield bonus via Saving Shield. Negate 1 melee attack, 1 ranged spell attack, and 3 ranged missile attacks a round via Crane Wing, Ray Shield, Deflect Arrows, Missile Shield, and Arrow Deflection.
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Target their CMD. This is what I always do. "Oh, we can't hit this ultra high AC dwarf? Let's just grab him and rip him apart, then." Anyone can do this, no special anti-Kevin or anti-Jim encounters need to be designed (which are never fun).
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Why are people talking about how to hit the high AC party members, when the issue the OP mentioned is that the high AC characters are being ignored?
The solution (assuming you can't actually access 3.x/3rd party materials that provide some way to draw aggro) is to be hated by your opponents. Any opponent that's smart enough to decide an easier target is dumb enough to be riled up into attacking you.
Say terrible, mean, hurtful things. Taunt your opponents mercilessly.
You've got the AC to walk the walk, but it's equally important to talk the talk (to the right people).
This is how my halfling fighter with Crane Wing and Cautious Fighter operates.
"Is this your first time wielding that weapon? Your grip is wrong."
"I could teach you to do that right, you know."
"How'd a dandy like you become a pirate captain?"
Not only did I get the pirate captain's attention (slashing as his thighs helped too), he ordered all bows on me (when previously they were aimed at the casters).
YMMV per DM.
Edit: Blundering Defense allows you to share the AC wealth with adjacent allies as well.
Yes yes, that's all very nice...now tell me: Where in that post did I ever say anything even vaguely resembling "A GM should have fun by proving he's smarter and better than his friends by killing their characters"?
You implied it when you made the statement that High AC characters ruined fun for the GM because enemy monsters can't hit the players. That statement implies that you think that the game is PCs vs GM and the only way to have "fun" is to constantly land telling blows on your opponents.
You don't have to "say" anything to be interpreted in a specific way on the internet. If that wasn't your intent, then choosing the word "fun" was not a good word choice because first and foremost, "fun" is always going to be subjective.
So yes, I goofed too when I implied in my post that there is only one way for a GM to have fun in his/her role. There are many ways to have fun, but there are many wrong ways to have fun. Turning the game into a GM vs. PCs scenario is probably the biggest way.
And again, you never said that you believed that the game should always be turned that way, but you implied based on the message you quoted and the words you chose to respond with.
Why are people talking about how to hit the high AC party members, when the issue the OP mentioned is that the high AC characters are being ignored?
Because if you can hit them, they don't have to be ignored.