The fighter especially should be trying as hard as he can to keep himself from being able to be ignored by getting in the enemies' way.
Have you considered adding the glamoured enchantment, so they can make it look like they are not wearing any sort of good armor. Especially if they are recognizable in the game word for their inability to be hit, this lets even BBEG think "without their usual defenses we will be able to get them maybe". Maybe having them wear arcanely patterned capes so they look like magic-users?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mentioned it up thread, but I think it got lost in between other messages, and because I didn't put anything but the link in the message. There are a few spells that can help, depending on what classes are in the group:
Compel Hostility First level spell available to Bard, Cleric, Inquisitor, Paladin, Ranger, Summoner, and Witch - Will Save or must attack you.
Coward's Lament Fourth level Inquisitor spell - Each round the creature doesn't attack you, it takes a penalty to AC (Will save to avoid).
Challenge Evil First level Paladin spell - Will save or creature becomes sickened if it doesn't make at least one attack on you.[/url]
Knight's Calling First level Paladin spell - Will save or on its turn, target moves toward you and provokes from you if it ends its turn next to you. It can't attack (so, technically, this doesn't force them to attack you. Just to move into striking distance and waste a turn, while you get to hit them. Doesn't actually seem very Paladin-like or fair, does it?)
There might be others. Yes, all of them allow a Will save, but that's exactly as it should be when you are trying to force someone to attack you. And, surprise, surprise, Paladins have more of them than others.
If the character trying to pull enemies isn't a caster, then it's already been answered. The Antagonize feat.
I suppose if the players are really that frustrated, the caster could Dominate Person one of the enemies and make him attack the high AC character.
I also like the tank build that was posted. Stack together enough of Bodyguard, Saving Shield, and the like, and they won't be able to hit anyone else, either, while you're around. Atand Still, Step Up, Following Step, and the like are also all good feats to keep enemies from getting past you.
Otherwise, you keep enemies from ignoring you the same way you always do. Do enough damage that they can't ignore you. Or, have the low AC characters place themselves out of striking distance or become less desirable targets (Fly, Mirror Image, Displacement, Improved Invisibility)
|
Why are people talking about how to hit the high AC party members, when the issue the OP mentioned is that the high AC characters are being ignored?Because if you can hit them, they don't have to be ignored.
If the enemy is (a) intelligent and (b) suicidal (e.g., is a fanatic, knows it is summoned, sees no way out, etc), then it will ignore the meatwalla anyway and hope to reach a squishy target it can kill before it goes down.
|
Well, there you go.
My players were laughing their buts off a few months ago when I walked into the room. A few of them had decided to wage an 'AC war' with each other, trying to create builds that would boost their AC.
Fast forward a few months. While the Cleric, Alchemist, and Fighter are still amused with their AC war, everybody else (the Summoner, Sorcerer, and dedicated Archer) is a little bummed about it.
Why?
Because having a high AC is like carrying a great big sign: "IGNORE ME!"
Enemies run up to the high AC guys, and miss them, miss them...and then go for the people they know they can hit.
What does one do to combat this? As in, what classes, feats, spells, etc grant one the ability to say: Attack me, not them! We thought the Armiger class from Super Genius would be good at doing this, but after reviewing it (mind you, quickly), it seems to only exasperate this problem.
Thoughts?
I'm currently the only one with high AC in my 5man no healer group, and typically I get attacked once, then ignored. I roll with a level 3 Vanaras Qinggong Monk in a Rise of the Runelords campaign and typically I have 24AC(24Touch too). CMD is 23 and 27 vs Trip.
I'm not sure how to take it personally. I'm rather upset they aren't targeting me with Something, even if I'm pummeling them, but at the same time If I were that creature I wouldn't try regular attacks either. I'm not unhittable, most monsters around that CR probably have a +6 to attacks and a +5 to CMB(at least that's what I guess). It's just tough to hit me and it's hard for me to keep the group safe, or try to, if I'm being ignored. Typically the opponent(s) will go for the only other melee(Magus) or the Cleric(assuming his +20 movement gets him near the group before the fight is over). The Magus usually has an AC of 17 if I remember right. The Cleric is at 19(just full plate and shield no enhancements). The Wizard is at a measly 13 I think. The Rogue(sniper) is around 16 or 17.
Is my DM handling this the right way? Should I be upset or in acceptance?
Most of what we have been fighting is Goblins, Goblanoids, Tsudo(Monk/Rogue Elf), and one Bug Bear.
I'll have monsters switch targets and look for easier victims if they roll high on the attack roll and still miss. An enemy that bombs it rolls doesn't necessary realize its opponent has amazing AC.
Making yourself large and/or highly obnoxious can be a good way to draw fire.
The sword & board ranger in my Carrion Crown party usually gets enlarged in some manner, and has all of the feats to bullrush people by shield bashing them. So mobs that try to walk past him to reach easier targets often get launched 10 to 15 ft (or more) back the way they came.
My L12 fighter in Jade Regent tends to deliberately wade into the fray, using disarm and trip attacks to shut down enemies that try to bypass him, often trash talking enemies all the while, and occasionally popping an enlarge person potion before moving in.
Generally, if it's clear to the monsters that ignoring you just isn't feasible, then they'll start trying to kill you.
|
|
So what you're telling me... is less Damaging attacks with AoO, and more Trip/Bull Rush/Grapple(can you grapple in place of an attack with AoO?) Stand Still, Disarm, etc to piss them off and get their attention?
As a Monk, I approve :3
Edit: I might go one level of Fighter just for the Two additional Feats with my Qinggong Monk/Druid w/Plant Domain 8/12 character. Do you think that would be a good idea? I'd probably lose a level of Monk for it if anything... that way I could grab Stand Still and some other Feat with it.
You can't grapple as an AoO. Only trip/disarm/sunder. Unless you have a way to get the grab ability, I think tetori's get that.
Just some ideas vs High AC, if your a spell using druid.
1) Entangle, Obscuring Mist + Falling terrain, Produce Flame "range touch attack".
2) Heat Metal/Chill metal ( + Create water with chill metal, if you got a nice DM), Flame Blade (touch attack), Flaming Sphere (save or damage), Fog Cloud + Falling terrain, Summon Swarm.
3) Contagion, Poison, Snare, Spike Growth.
4) Flame Strike, Ice Storm, Spike Stones.
5) Baleful Polymorph, Insect Plague, Wall of Fire/Thorns.
7) Creeping Doom, Fire Storm, Sunbeam.
8) Earthquake, Finger of Death, Repel Metal + Falling Terrain, Reverse Gravity, Sunburst, Whirlwind
9) Storm of Vengeance.
If you can do hit and run tactics, Create Water + cold environment can be a pain for metal wearing high AC targets. Pits, Traps, and Cliffs will also ignore most ac. Sand & Water pits can be deadly with some DM's do to suffocation rules.
Anyway some ideas.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Stop thinking of the game as a combat system.
Combat is a set of problems. This is an important aspect of the game to be sure, but remember that there are lots of other kinds of problems. Clearly the high AC guys traded away a LOT of other solutions to other problems to achieve their high ACs. let him have his high AC, but simply include a greater variety of problems to hit them with.
Charm a tank and turn him on the party, and use that high AC for your own benefit. Create mobility-important encounters. Attack at night when they are not wearing armor, etc. etc.
Don't simply target their vulnerabilities of course. Just make sure there are times when they shine and times when they suck. Just like everyone else.
As for the "monsters hit other characters problem" Hey, it's NOT your problem! It's not your job to figure out how other people's characters survive. That's THEIR problem. Tell them to stop whining and figure it out for themselves.
And you know what. They will.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
the tanks are built to tank things, thats what they find fun, the damage dealers are built to damage, thats what they find fun. when i gm i have more fun having a group of fellows laugh at how silly something is than i do having a group of fellos be mercilessly slaughtered because i found every way possible to get around their strengths. its not a sure fire thing, and sometimes i throw in a monster or two that would mercilessly slaughter them if they aren't lucky just to keep the thrill of death in it. but honestly i have more fun watching them laugh as the halfling supertank is picked up and tossed into a river. (not kidding, this halfling had something like 43 AC at level 13 or 14 and he sat out a combat because my gorilla got tired of the shiny thing making taunting noises at it) i dont know about you guys, but if i build a character specifically to do something and my gm goes through pains to ensure that i cannot do that thing i dont have much fun at all.
|
I just ran a PFS scenario where the pcs enter a complex, and are assaulted immediately. The fighter with 31 AC went in first. The enemies stopped the fighter, as he was squeezing, in a bottle neck. Bad guy #1 aided #2, and now we are talking about a swing of 6 ....25 AC because of the squeeze and the aid another. A Few hits and a crit and the fighter was down.
Terrain like this, or other special conditions - underwater, Anti magic zone, Custom critters like a Rust monster spawn swarm (!), or just critters that are cr 15 in this case with more than just a melee attack should do wonders.
Some players optimize because they want a walkover. Other players optimize because they want to be able to overcome tough challenges. What's the point of being able to beat an epic encounter if you never have one?
As for the problem of how you high AC characters can stop their vulnerable allies from being attacked, while there are things they can do (trip, standing in a doorway), a lot of the time it's the low-AC characters who need to solve the problem. If they're flying or invisible or they've used battlefield control spells to block off access, the enemy will have no choice but to attack the target they can reach.
I just ran a PFS scenario where the pcs enter a complex, and are assaulted immediately. The fighter with 31 AC went in first. The enemies stopped the fighter, as he was squeezing, in a bottle neck. Bad guy #1 aided #2, and now we are talking about a swing of 6 ....25 AC because of the squeeze and the aid another. A Few hits and a crit and the fighter was down.
Terrain like this, or other special conditions - underwater, Anti magic zone, Custom critters like a Rust monster spawn swarm (!), or just critters that are cr 15 in this case with more than just a melee attack should do wonders.
Why didn't the fighter just back up out of the squeezing and wait for them to come to him then? If he had to squeeze, he was either large sized squeezing into a 5' hallway, or he was small/medium squeezing into a tiny sized hole (with tiny enemies).
Either way, standing there and taking hits while squeezing seems like a poor plan.
my inquisitor was fond of using Greater Invisibility and hitting flat footed on his manyshot, then following up with rapidshot innerative shot and hastened shot, all ignoreing DR (clustered shots) with bane and hopefully holy damage, all while flying 25-30 feet in the air. that is until the gm started giving everything See Invisibility, blindsense, and/or other ways to reveal me.
|
|
Let us go back to the OP's questions:
What does one do to combat this? As in, what classes, feats, spells, etc grant one the ability to say: Attack me, not them! We thought the Armiger class from Super Genius would be good at doing this, but after reviewing it (mind you, quickly), it seems to only exasperate this problem.
Having a PFS-based, AC-Heavy Support class (+4 AC to Adjacent Allies, +13 AC to single adjacent ally) I can tell you my weaknesses to help you out with your situation.
- Combat Maneuvers to Sunder. AC-Man is not an AC-Man when you use a large monster as a canopener and obliterate their all-so-special armor.
- Battlefield control. If AC-Man falls down into a pit with any of the pit spells, then they have a hole that they can protect, while you can choose to unload onto them with other spells that ignores attacking their AC, like fireballs and the like. Black Tentacles is another good spell against them. The neat thing with Black Tentacles is that you can supply that spellcaster with tanglefootbags to reroll your grapple checks.
- Apply their Armor Check Penalties to everything they do, and with no mercy. Climbing out of that pit, when they drink that Potion of Fly and take damage, swimming underwater, trying to escape out of the Black Tentacles. All of these are part of the rules and it would give them a refesher course on the drawbacks of armor.
- Make some nighttime ambushes while they sleep. It DOES take a really long time to don on that fullplate. Why do you think bandits love the night to raid campsites?
- Add some creativity to situations. They have to enter a nobleman's banquet. No Armor ALLOWED!
- Force the Saves. Create Pit, Dominate Person, as well as any other spell that would force them to rely on rolls or be out of the game would change things drastically.
- Swarms are nice because they ignore AC. A Locust Swarm? Make it an APOCALYPSE-SIZED Locust Swarm!
- Try going against their AC with combatants aimed to hit stuff, like Ratfolks. Hear me out: Ratfolk can have 2 per square and is considered flanking when they share a square. Give them the Teamwork Feat, Outflank, which increases the bonus to flank by +4. Give them the trait Militia from the Dragon Primer, which increases the bonus by 1 for flanking. They are Adopted and trained by a Halfling, giving them the Helpful trait, increasing the bonus to aid another by +2. So with a pair of Ratfolk, one chooses to aid another, attacking the Aid Another AC of 10, succeeds, and gives the other ratfolk a +4 bonus. +4 Aid, +4 outflank, +1 Militia, this is a +9 to attack, before modifiers and spells. Or if you want to vary your combat style, 5 pairs of Helpful Ratfolk and a Bossman in the front.
RRR
MBM
-T-
R - Reach Weapon
M - Melee Weapon
B - Bossman
That is 10 Aid Anothers, which could be up to +40 to Attack.
- Try some more creativity by placing a Magic Zone inside a dungeon that flips AC topsy-turvy, seperating the baseline between your lower ac players and your AC-Men. In a PFS scenario, there was a neat trick that reverses Strength Scores so that it make people with heavy armor just can not move do to the sheer weight that they have with a now "3 Strength rating". If they complain that there is no way to bypass that, place the console to deactivate it at the very end of the dungeon.
With the AC flip example, here is one:
- Tank A has 45 AC
- Tank B has 40 AC
- Summoner has 18 AC
- Sorcerer has 15 AC
With that, make the flip at 25 AC, adding +5 AC per 2 below 25 and subtracting 10 for every 5 above, so that the result will be:
- Tank A has 5 AC
- Tank B has 10 AC
- Summoner has 33 AC
- Sorcerer has 40 AC
Then let the new tanks have some fun.
Sunder is usually still pretty hard to get off against a fighter or other "high ac" character. Also, if you provoke doing it (by not having the feats) any damage they deal from an AoO is applied as a penalty to your sunder attempt.
How does a tanglefoot bag force a re-roll on grapple? If they fail their save, they are glued to the floor, and if they succeed, they can move half speed. It does provide a penalty to their dex, which would make it easier for the tentacles to succeed on a grapple.
AC penalty doesn't apply to trying to reverse a grapple. (It does apply to escape artist, so if you meant that, sorry, but most fighters I know don't take EA, and instead rely on their CMB/CMD)
Glamered is only 2700gp and lets your armor look like anything you want. By the time they are an AC monster, they can afford it. Full plate at the noblemans ball? Sure!
Swarms are great for screwing most martials.
Strength flip? Man, that could be interesting/deadly depending on the cutoff point. The wizards says let me hit you with this and casts ray of enfeeblement on the fighter so he can still move?
|
|
Sunder is usually still pretty hard to get off against a fighter or other "high ac" character. Also, if you provoke doing it (by not having the feats) any damage they deal from an AoO is applied as a penalty to your sunder attempt.
How does a tanglefoot bag force a re-roll on grapple? If they fail their save, they are glued to the floor, and if they succeed, they can move half speed. It does provide a penalty to their dex, which would make it easier for the tentacles to succeed on a grapple.
AC penalty doesn't apply to trying to reverse a grapple. (It does apply to escape artist, so if you meant that, sorry, but most fighters I know don't take EA, and instead rely on their CMB/CMD)
Glamered is only 2700gp and lets your armor look like anything you want. By the time they are an AC monster, they can afford it. Full plate at the noblemans ball? Sure!
Swarms are great for screwing most martials.
Strength flip? Man, that could be interesting/deadly depending on the cutoff point. The wizards says let me hit you with this and casts ray of enfeeblement on the fighter so he can still move?
- Nephilims, Treants, Scanderigs, and Elder Water Elementals do not need to worry about failing their sunder attempts.
- Tanglefoot bags, when used as a material component via the Adventurer's Armory Companion Booklet, let you reroll a grapple attempt of the Black Tentacles once per bag. The caster has 15 bags of tanglefoot. He can do this all day.
- As for the AC Penalty from reversing the grapple, you do not get a AC penalty for reversing the grapple, but a base -2 DEX for being grappled. But with the Black Tentacles, your are trying to crush them to death. Automatic damage ignores AC.
- Glamered may be in effect, but that does not mean that the nobleman can use his strings to have a spellcaster or 5 be at the checkpoint with True Seeing. It is a paranoid nobleman. That, or the guards can ask for the party to take the clothes off to check for any other item that might be strapped on their bodies. Once the Glamered armor is off, the guards can lift the clothing to see if it is heavy (Glamered changes appearance, not the weight of a fullplate). Moreover, it would take a while for the armor to be donned off a character, which would raise questions about the "clothing".
Kill the squishies is always a valid tactic provided they are an intelligent enemy.
When you play a game and you see an enemy that looks like a spell caster, are you more worried about that enemy or the guy with the greatsword? Typically the caster is a bigger threat to the group as a whole and you want to take them out ASAP. The enemy doing the same is just good strategy. Short of using illusions and glamers to make characters look like the might be fighters rather than casters, or using the spells that Ferious Thune mentioned as well as the antagonize feat there just aren't a lot of ways to force an enemy to focus on attacking a certain person. I think this is a good thing since it means the party has to cover their defensively weaker members to prvent them from being killed.
Tanglefoot bags are used during the casting of the spell as a material component. I don't have AA in front of me ATM, but I highly doubt you can use 15 tanglefoot bags in the same casting of the spell. Maybe up to 2 (one in each hand).
Yes, and my point is that characters with high AC also tend to have high CMD, so it is not likely the black tentacles will grapple them.
If the nobleman is that paranoid, you might as well dust of disappearance those who need it before going through the checkpoint, and have them hide until combat breaks out. Its not like a fighter has a lot to offer in the way of social skills anyway.
Can monsters use aid another with grapple to dogpile a character. (And if successful, rip armor off said character) I could see a swarm of goblins stripping a Paladin and run off laughing.
Can monsters use aid another with grapple to dogpile a character. (And if successful, rip armor off said character) I could see a swarm of goblins stripping a Paladin and run off laughing.
That is in fact exactly how multiple grapples work.
Multiple Creatures: Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action). Multiple creatures can also assist another creature in breaking free from a grapple, with each creature that assists (using the Aid Another action) granting a +2 bonus on the grappled creature's combat maneuver check.
|
|
Tanglefoot bags are used during the casting of the spell as a material component. I don't have AA in front of me ATM, but I highly doubt you can use 15 tanglefoot bags in the same casting of the spell. Maybe up to 2 (one in each hand).
Yes, and my point is that characters with high AC also tend to have high CMD, so it is not likely the black tentacles will grapple them.
If the nobleman is that paranoid, you might as well dust of disappearance those who need it before going through the checkpoint, and have them hide until combat breaks out. Its not like a fighter has a lot to offer in the way of social skills anyway.
I understand that there might be flaws in some ideas, but remeber that we are trying to help out a GM with GM ideas. Any little bit of advice might spark some ideas into the OP's head that would make their game fun.
I understand that there might be flaws in some ideas, but remeber that we are trying to help out a GM with GM ideas. Any little bit of advice might spark some ideas into the OP's head that would make their game fun.
If you read the first post, he was actually asking what ways can the PCs use to get his NPCs to attack the PCs with high armor, rather than the NPCs intelligently moving on once they realize they can't hit the high AC PCs.
|
|
With that, there is not really much stuff than Antagonize and spells that force the attack on the target. Stuff like Come and Get Me Rage Power relies on if the enemy is willing to attack. Same thing with any other tactic. Step up and Step Up and Strike both can deter the priority of an attack, but does not change the state that the enemy has the free will to attack any target they choose.
Only Antagonize and Spells that force the attack (not just give penalties, but specifically forces an attack) is the only way to override the GM's call on a Npc's in-combat tactics.
AC 40 is pretty decent at Level 15. 32 though is no big deal. A group of 4 cloud giants would be CR15 and they attack at +22.
If you are looking for tactics for the tanks to prevent monsters from getting at the squishy party members, there's a few things you can do.
It certainly helps if the monsters are non-flying. Against non-flying monsters your tanks can keep a distance of 5 or 10 feet between them, and then they will get attacks of opportunity if monsters try to go past them. Having enlarged party members will be very nice for this.
Combat reflexes are useful for this strategy. The stand still feat is the next step since you use AoOs to prevent creatures from moving. Then the tanks can beat on them.
Against flying creatures who have the room to fly around it gets a lot harder. Your tanks need to be able to fly once in a while, and they should also have backup ranged attacks. Also spells like wall of force or repulsion could be used to keep flying critters away from you. Furthermore anything that entangles a flying creature will usually also stop it from flying.
Peet
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wow, well rather than give you another post that has nothing to do with what you are asking I'll highlight a couple of good responses you got and give you something to think about.
Tank is not a class. Its a video game term, and it doesn't work in pathfinder all that well. There is no magic number that you can get your damage to, that pulls agro, so you can use the rest of your points to buff AC. Think of it more like a real fight. What makes your players go after one monster above the others. Have your AC guys learn from that. There were some great suggestions up there buried in the ... I don't even know what to call it....
Magic spells that force them to attack the big AC guy. That is one way to help get the bad guys there. Also learning a bit about your opponent and what might get him to pay attention to you. Maybe know his language, and call him terrible names. Make it personal, wear a cologne that makes him crazy... Last, adjust the build. It is nice to have a huge AC but your players have found the problem with it. Walls made of stone are great, but really do nothing when the door is open. One way to make sure your AC guys are getting the attention they deserve is to make sure they are deadly enough if they are not focused on, that they are going to lay on the hurt badly. No one is going to ignore the guy that is hitting them for 25% of their hp at a whack even if he is wearing a titanium turtle shell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hate Antagonize and would never allow it in any game I run. It smacks of computer gaming, where you're facing pre-programmed foes who cannot think. The whole point of tabletop gaming is for real responsiveness.
/rant
Anyhoo, in the last campaign I played in, *I* was the PC with the super-high AC. I was also the PC with one of the highest DPRs in the party. The enemy couldn't ignore me, because if they did I would decimate them.
If the PCs can hurt them enough, their enemies will have to try and do *something* to contain them.
Also, unless you're metagaming, it would take more than a few swings to determine "I have no chance of hitting this guy." Combat just isn't that black-and-white.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ignoring them after one round is a bit odd. As previously mentioned, it reeks of meta-gaming. Also, rolling an 18 or an 8 is not immediately clear cut from the attacker's perspective. The 18 will feel alot more co-ordinated than the 8 but the attacker doesn't know they have to hit an ac of x to sucessfully land a blow. The ac is just the number to constitute the total components of dex, armor...etc. For characters with high ac, they normally have a ton from not just armor but also dex based bonuses, deflection and so on. Combat run in multiple games I've been in has been fluid that way. I played a Ip Man sort of pugilist in a game last year. Monk with really high AC who actually drew certain opponents into "wasting" a couple of rounds atacking him. Not saying that every opponent just rushed his way and ignored everyone else. just that those that did had a much lower chance of hitting him than say, the hobgoblin swashbuckler. They attacked for a couple of rounds and some would change targets but they had already wasted 2-3 rounds doing so. It was quite intersting, with the dm describing the cuts and stabs, me describing the blocks and dodges, ducking and weaving. Returning the attacks with light palm strikes. After one round,the opponents didn't say "well that **** has an ac of mid 30s, guess we'll all ignore him now." If the opponents have been briefed or are aware of the particular character's strengths beforehand, then thats a different story but they weren't. Even with a high ac, such characters are not untouchable. Previously, touch attcks completely negate armor are one thing. There are also spells and special monstrous abilities which ignore ac and just force saves. Not to menton swarms and certain abilities which are area of effect and don't even allow a save. Alot can still affect high ac characters but they should be given the opportunity to shine instead of the dm singing the tune of "hur hur hur, everything just ignores you, your high ac character suxxxorx."
Not sure if its been mentioned before but if the campaign is heavy on opponents wielding manufactured weapons, take a disarming heavy flail, pair it with improved disarm and double weapon disarm. Seen it done. Very effective at what it does. It can also be used against non-weapons.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ignoring high AC opponents in favour of others requires a high level of tactical thinking, willpower and situational awareness. For most combatants, a present threat cannot be ignored, that is were the awareness of the combatant is focussed, after all.
So here is what I do as a DM
- Dumb combatants attack the nearest target and never look for an easier target, but might try to run if hurt severely.
- Combat savy opponents try to select their targets in a smart way, e.g try to geek the mage first, but once engaged will not break of the engagement unless hurt. Than they might run or look for an easier target, depending on morale.
- Soldiers under effective command, that is under command of someone who keeps high situational awareness can and will ignore hard to hurt targets for softer ones, if commanded too.
- Powerful single creatures such as dragons typically are combat savy, but some of them, in particular ones that are feeling confident, will freely accept allowing hard to hurt targets to hurt them while going after easier prey.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hate Antagonize and would never allow it in any game I run. It smacks of computer gaming, where you're facing pre-programmed foes who cannot think. The whole point of tabletop gaming is for real responsiveness.
/rant
Anyhoo, in the last campaign I played in, *I* was the PC with the super-high AC. I was also the PC with one of the highest DPRs in the party. The enemy couldn't ignore me, because if they did I would decimate them.
If the PCs can hurt them enough, their enemies will have to try and do *something* to contain them.
Also, unless you're metagaming, it would take more than a few swings to determine "I have no chance of hitting this guy." Combat just isn't that black-and-white.
Indeed. I couldn't agree more though I think there was a feat in dragon magazine which mimicked the antagonize feat. The only difference was that the pre-requisites were alot steeper. I didn't have a problem with that feat given it required so much more expenditure and the target gained a morale bonus to hit you.
|
|
I hate Antagonize and would never allow it in any game I run. It smacks of computer gaming, where you're facing pre-programmed foes who cannot think. The whole point of tabletop gaming is for real responsiveness.
The most popular fix for folks that absolutely hate what Antagonize does to the game is to cut the Intimidate portion out entirely and just keep the Diplomacy version, tying an Intimidate check back into that.
Basically, convert it to something that can inflict a debuff that sticks until the target attacks the antagonizer rather than overwriting the target's personality.
Let's be realistic for a moment, because you have to be realistic about
these things.
All else being equal, there are two principles that win pathfinder:
1) Damage concentration and denying damage concentration to your enemy.
2) Get the easiest target first.
The reason is simply this: damage does nothing until you are dead. 1 HP or 100 HP, you still do the same damage. Hence every time damage that could have been piled on one target is spread out among several targets, you have given the enemy more time to hurt you. That is why blasting is bad unless you are optimized enough to outright kill groups of targets. And it's also why single target debuffs are relatively weak, that -4 to hit could have been damage, after all. Mass debuffs on the other hand help to deny the enemy the ability to concentrate damage.
Why target the easiest target first? That is the place were damage will most rapidly have effects, i.e. take a combatant out of the equation. The fact that commonly the squishy targets are also the most offensively dangerous (the famed tank/glass cannon dichotomy) further strengthens this principle.
Now, we, the players, know this. But do the Monsters, PCs and NPCs? Because knowing this make certain behaviours reasonable that would seem utterly unreasonable in an actual conflict. In an actual conflict being hurt hurts. A broken arm is almost as certain to take you out of a fight as an outright killing blow. Wounded people are slow and in the way and the bind the attention of their allies, who are trying to help them.
The question of this thread ties into this naturally: Should NPCs and Monsters act by the rules of simulation (i.e. according to a psychology that corresponds with a different set of physics) or by the rules of the game.
|
|
When you play a game and you see an enemy that looks like a spell caster, are you more worried about that enemy or the guy with the greatsword? Typically the caster is a bigger threat to the group as a whole and you want to take them out ASAP. The enemy doing the same is just good strategy.
My Kensai fully approves of this.
Please rush into melee with the guy wearing the fancy clothes instead of armor.
When you play a game and you see an enemy that looks like a spell caster, are you more worried about that enemy or the guy with the greatsword? Typically the caster is a bigger threat to the group as a whole and you want to take them out ASAP. The enemy doing the same is just good strategy.My Kensai fully approves of this.
Please rush into melee with the guy wearing the fancy clothes instead of armor.
It's a general rule, it's not always perfect. People (including NPCs and PCs) are only so intelligent. If I had to fight somebody I'd go after the guy with no armor and a sword versus the guy with armor and a swrord. Of course magic doesn't actually exist either...so maybe that's not as valid.
As an aside, how does a Kensai stand up against a raging Barbarian? I feel like a charge pounce from a barbarian with come and get me may do alright.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The characters are 15th level?
Veil.
One casting lasts all day...well, 1 hour/level, anyway.
Make the good AC people look like unarmored elf maidens. Have them flinch and grunt in pain whenever a monster “hits” them.
Make the bad AC people look like stone statues covered in inch-thick steel plate. Or make them look like tiny, inoffensive bunnies, like misty clouds, or like captive members of whatever organization you’re fighting, legs in chains.
Or make everyone in your party look like the same fool in motley. With no visual cues that they’re armored differently, there’s no reason for attackers to switch targets when the first fool they engage is tough to hit. If your party’s not quite that whimsical, make everyone look exactly like the most heavily armored party member.
Veil affects scent and touch as well. Few illusions affect touch! Subjects sound the same, however, and try not to let your enemies taste you--this is good advice whether you have Veil cast or not.
Sometimes, you gotta let the tank be a tank.
The characters are 15th level?
Veil.
One casting lasts all day...well, 1 hour/level, anyway.
Make the good AC people look like unarmored elf maidens. Have them flinch and grunt in pain whenever a monster “hits” them.
Make the bad AC people look like stone statues covered in inch-thick steel plate. Or make them look like tiny, inoffensive bunnies, like misty clouds, or like captive members of whatever organization you’re fighting, legs in chains.
Or make everyone in your party look like the same fool in motley. With no visual cues that they’re armored differently, there’s no reason for attackers to switch targets when the first fool they engage is tough to hit. If your party’s not quite that whimsical, make everyone look exactly like the most heavily armored party member.
Veil affects scent and touch as well. Few illusions affect touch! Subjects sound the same, however, and try not to let your enemies taste you--this is good advice whether you have Veil cast or not.
If I encountered such a situation, and knowing such magics exist, I would head for the things in the back and attack them. If there are casters, they'll be in the back (usually). Also, once they cast one time you know which individual is a spell caster.
First, welcome to high level play ie 15 and up. It harder to GM this level of the game, than levels 1-12. AC and HP are not that big of deal at this level of play it all about conditions.
Second welcome to table size 6 play. It harder that a table of 4.
Mass buffs are stronger and action economy may not be in you favor as GM. As you are used to in smaller tables
Last let us look power scale. The game is built for 15 point build as normal.
If you use 20 or 25 point build then it be comes easy or supper easier.
Do you allow crafting? If so bet that the fighter, cleric, and alchemist have greater amount of crafted gear vs the other players. Crafting can mess up the scales or balance of the game greatly if give to much time or money. If they all have the perfect item for there build it make the game to easy.
Audit Wealth to make they are right on or below for level. As 15th level PC it should be 240,000gp per person. As a party of 4 15th level PC it should be 960,000.
Just because you have extra player dose not mean you have to give out extra loot. Control the party power by toning down the great AC gear. If was me I would do 75% wealth for 15th level PC or 180,000gp per person on average. And 1,080,000 gp limt for the party. With no single PC above 240,000 limit. I would due this to help out on the action economy advantage that they have.
Learn steal, disarm, and sunder rules, and use them to get great gear toned down.
Level drain and ability point drain/ damage attacks
Attack other defenses ie save, CMD, and touch, AC.
Grapple and Grab.
Antimagic Field, Dispel Magic, Greater, Mage's Disjunction
Lastly talk to your players and have them tone it down. Tell them you do not want to be in BaB vs AC arms race, because it you make something can hit big 3 AC player them then it will smoke the other small AC PC. Have them move +4 amulet of natural armor and +4 ring of protection off the cleric to the Sorcerer for his +2 amulet of natural armor and +2 ring of protection. That is 4 point AC drop for the Cleric and 4 point AC gain for Sorcerer. My group tries not to supper tank but build up weakness. For example if we get a ring +2 it goes to who ever has the lowest touch AC not the best. And if it tied then compare true AC. You are not the first gm that been down this road and will not be the last.
The whole idea of tanking and aggro are video game concepts.
If you want your heavies to defend the casters (forcing attacks against them) then you need to use terrain. Put the heavies in a place where they block access to your casters.
At level 15 if you don't have favorable terrain you should have little problem creating some of your own.
Good luck!
|
|
As an aside, how does a Kensai stand up against a raging Barbarian? I feel like a charge pounce from a barbarian with come and get me may do alright.
It would most likely come down to dice rolls.
Cause, you know, the kensai WILL go first and can hit way harder, at least for the first few rounds.
That whole bane weapon + multiple 15d6 shocking grasps per round thing.....
As an aside, how does a Kensai stand up against a raging Barbarian? I feel like a charge pounce from a barbarian with come and get me may do alright.It would most likely come down to dice rolls.
Cause, you know, the kensai WILL go first and can hit way harder, at least for the first few rounds.
That whole bane weapon + multiple 15d6 shocking grasps per round thing.....
Starting position might make a difference depending on if the magus can reach the barbarian or not. Also whether or not the barbarian has any sort of electrical energy resistance. But, yeah that would be challenging. Of course, if the barbarian isn't one of the first few opponents of the day...
Btw, I'm sure it legal but how does one get to 15d6 when Shocking Grasp normally caps at 5d6? I don't play casters so I'm not especially familiar with all the tricks.