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Working on a PFS-legal fighter.
For decided bits, I'm doing a Halfling, the Eldrich Guardian Archetype, and I want to use a Light Crossbow. I'll be a non-priest worshiper of Abadar, who favors the Light Crossbow. I'll be Lawful Neutral.
That said, I'm torn between the Brawler and Crossbowman archetypes to stack upon the above. Both fit with the Eldrich Guardian.
At first glance, the obvious answer is the Crossbowman, as it's the one that gives bonuses to the crossbow. That said, the Bayonet, a melee crossbow attachment, is in the Brawler's domain. And it's true, the best answer to a ranged attacker is to close the distance. And the brawler has more defensive abilities than the Crossbowman and as a low strength small halfling, this can be important. But the Crossbowman is definitely better with the crossbow than the brawler is with the crossbow.
Like I said, I'm torn.
And it's true, the fighter has wide access to bonus feats which could make either work just fine.
Suggestions?
crossbows are a pretty poor options, Bold Ace Gunslinger makes them good weapons.
But out of the two you suggested I say go crossbowman.
Bolt Ace is the only way to make crossbows anything more than a backup weapon for wizards.
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Neither. If you must be a Fighter take empty quiver style or point blank master to deal with melee. Crossbowman and Brawler both trade out weapon training, which means you can't take Advanced Weapon training, which is the only reason to go fighter.
Can you elaborate? Both the negative attitude towards fighters, and the praise for the advanced weapon training?
Can you elaborate your lack of interest in non-fighter classes? Bolt ace really is the way to go...
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It's more of a negative attitude towards crossbows. Crossbows are inferior in every way to bows, and post weapon masters handbook, slings and thrown weapons as well.
They have a feat tax of rapid reload and crossbow mastery, they can never add an ability modifier to damage, they cannot use manyshot. The only way to overcome the limitations of the weapon is the class features of the Bolt Ace, which give you the ability to apply dex to damage.
As for the praise for Advanced weapon training, It gives you so much more versatility as a fighter that every fighter should take it. It's like Qinggong for Monks, and should be rewritten into the CRB class description. It's the best thing to happen to fighters since the CRB came out.
There's very few ways to get decent damage bonuses on crossbows unless you go bolt ace so you can add your Dex bonus to it. In addition, you have to take all the same feats you need as a bow archer (point-blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, deadly aim, and point-blank master) as well as some that are unique to crossbows (rapid reload, crossbow mastery) and some staple archery feats cannot be used with a crossbow (e.g. manyshot). This adds up to less damage for more feats.
Bolt ace fixes most of this. You start with a masterwork crossbow, which can be a repeater crossbow (unless your GM disallows it as a house rule) that will allow you to make two shots in a round with rapid shot. When you get rapid reload, which you can do as early as 3rd level though I recommend 4th so you can get precise shot sooner, you can switch it for a light crossbow and reload that as a free action now.
After 5th level, you can go back to fighter or ranger as you prefer.
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They have a feat tax of rapid reload and crossbow mastery, they can never add an ability modifier to damage, they cannot use manyshot. The only way to overcome the limitations of the weapon is the class features of the Bolt Ace, which give you the ability to apply dex to damage.
Have you really never tried a repeater crossbow? One feat (exotic weapon) that makes reloading a free action. Plus crossbows can be fired while prone.
Yeah, the magazine is slow to replace, hence the comment about bayonets. The bayonet makes the crossbow into a two-handed melee weapon. So rather than wasting time reloading the magazine, you could just burst forward into melee after a turn or two of unloading bolts.
As for bows, the key is that I'm doing a halfling. I'm already using smaller weapons with inherently lower strength. The Brawler adds quite a bit to melee damage with their weapon group and the crossbowman can add dex to melee attacks.
And on a side note, the Monkey Style pairs up well with the prone character. And unarmed strike in part of the brawler's domain.
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Can you elaborate your lack of interest in non-fighter classes? Bolt ace really is the way to go...
I'm stubborn...
That, and I like the Eldrich Guardian archetype, which is getting stacked in here. I also like the halfling favored class bonus of the fighter better than that of the gunslinger (that would be +1 CMD on grapple and trip, as opposed to the gunslinger's +0.25 ac in certain circumstances).
Beyond that, I don't really like the gunslinger class design. Seems like they tried too hard to make it "not a fighter." I did think the swashbuckler turned out well with the same mechanics.
They have a feat tax of rapid reload and crossbow mastery, they can never add an ability modifier to damage, they cannot use manyshot. The only way to overcome the limitations of the weapon is the class features of the Bolt Ace, which give you the ability to apply dex to damage.Have you really never tried a repeater crossbow? One feat (exotic weapon) that makes reloading a free action. Plus crossbows can be fired while prone.
With bolt ace, you get that feat for free, and a masterwork repeating crossbow for free to boot.
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For five shots. And bayonets take longer to affix and stow than reloading the magazine unless you have quick draw.
It's a move action to attach the bayonet (in the bayonet's description). Quick draw doesn't affect this, unless you get a houserule (or a nice DM). Issue is that the bayonet has it's own rules for attaching.
Reloading the magazine is a full round action and isn't covered by rapid reload (pretty sure it's a balance thing, as medieval guns can't really be easier to reload...).
And yeah, five shots. So, at first level, that's a round or two shooting, then going into melee via a bayonet. At higher levels, maybe just a round.
But realistically, the fighter isn't always able to stay at range and just shoot. A competent enemy should close ranks in a turn or two. Yeah, I could go with acrobatics and feints and stay out of range that way, but with a PFS fighter, I really am going to need to be able to be the party's tank if a real tank doesn't show up....Ah, the downside to drop-in groups.
But, yeah, if the opponent's stay away, the crossbow is pretty awesome. Though I may tweak the concept a bit and go with a heavy crossbow instead.
And if the crossbow is as lacking as you say, then that's more push for the brawler. Because, as mentioned, I am torn between the brawler and the crossbowman, not between fighters and gunsligners.
If you take fighter levels, they should be in something that gets you weapon training. I recommend weapon master. Any fighter archetype that loses weapon training is kind of worthless compared to those that do considering the recent feats released like Advanced Weapon Training.
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If you take fighter levels, they should be in something that gets you weapon training. I recommend weapon master. Any fighter archetype that loses weapon training is kind of worthless compared to those that do considering the recent feats released like Advanced Weapon Training.
Lol. You can't get advanced training with the version of weapon training that the Weapon Master has. Advanced Training requires giving up access to weapon groups and the weapon master's variant of weapon training doesn't give any weapon group access.
Almost none of the archetypes can take Advanced Training.
I'm, personally, not sold on Advanced Training.
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It a move action to affix the bayonet if its in hand. The crossbow is a two handed weapon. So you would need a move action to draw the bayonet from a sheath, and then a second move action to attach it.
And you can also take advanced weapon training as a feat. The weapon master alone can take this feat with bonus feats at more than 1 per 5 levels.
Lol. You can't get advanced training with the version of weapon training that the Weapon Master has. Advanced Training requires giving up access to weapon groups and the weapon master's variant of weapon training doesn't give any weapon group access.
Almost none of the archetypes can take Advanced Training.
Anybody with Weapon Training and at least 5 levels of fighter can take the "Advanced Weapon Training" feat though. The text of the feat even calls out that Weapon Masters are allowed to take it more than anybody else.
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Anybody with Weapon Training and at least 5 levels of fighter can take the "Advanced Weapon Training" feat though. The text of the feat even calls out that Weapon Masters are allowed to take it more than anybody else.
Perhaps we are talking about different things?
I'm looking at this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Advanced-Weapon-Tr aining
Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option for one fighter weapon group that he previously selected with the weapon training class feature. The fighter's weapon training bonus still increases for weapons from all fighter weapon groups he previously selected with weapon training. Some advance weapon training options can be selected only if the fighter meets the option's prerequisites.
Bold is mine.
That page is missing the second half of the chapter, with the AWT feat and the weapon master love.
Perhaps we are talking about different things?.
We are; there is also a feat that lets you take AWT abilities for if you have 5 fighter levels and Weapon Training:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/advanced-weapon-training-combat
But you need to actually have weapon training to use it, not an ability that replicated weapon training (sorry Swashbucklers), so it's best not to take anything that gives up weapon training for a similar ability.
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I don't think d20pfsrd.Com has the weapon master's handbook fully integrated into their site yet.
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It a move action to affix the bayonet if its in hand. The crossbow is a two handed weapon. So you would need a move action to draw the bayonet from a sheath, and then a second move action to attach it.
No, the crossbow specially can be used as a one handed weapon. It just can't be reloaded as a one handed weapon.
Though as for the drawing the bayonet from the sheath, I'll admit, I didn't think you'd be storing it in a sheath. Sorta figured you'd "flip" it into place from the crossbow itself. I mean, the pathfinder version only does piercing damage, so it doesn't have an edge, so I don't really think a sheath is needed. Just a sharp tip.
I did do a search after you pointed it out. Looks like crossbow bayonets are fictitious and don't really exist outside of modern weapons designed to look cool and in video games. So I'm not really sure where the bayonet goes when it isn't attached.
Kinda disappointing that I can't find any examples.
And you can also take advanced weapon training as a feat. The weapon master alone can take this feat with bonus feats at more than 1 per 5 levels.
Ah, thank you.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/advanced-weapon-training-combatSo the weapon master get's a lesser version of the Advanced Training in that it only applies to that one weapon, as opposed to a large group of weapons.
Though it does say at the bottom of the link that there is a "Martial Focus" feat to gain Advanced Training without the "weapon training" class feature.
Though it does say at the bottom of the link that there is a "Martial Focus" feat to gain Advanced Training without the "weapon training" class feature.
I think that the Martial Focus feat is to let people take the "Weapon Mastery" feats from the Weapon Master's Handbook (e.g. "Smash from the Air", "Devastating Assault", "Ace Trip") not to let people get advanced weapon training abilities by taking Martial Focus and then the AWT feat, although the latter would be nice if it worked.
Someone who's more rules oriented might want to double check that for me though.