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So I have been looking at the Powerful Shape feat for druids:
Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature, druid level 8th.
Benefit: When in wild shape, treat your size as one category larger for the purpose of calculating CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you (such as grab, swallow whole, and trample).
I've never really considered carrying capacity once you get to a high level druid because there comes a point where the weight of your own gear becomes a moot point. But then I sat down and started doing the actual math.
A druid with Wildshape high enough, Ant haul, and the Powerful Shape feat can move disturbing amounts of weight.
Sample: A druid with a 16 strength starting. He gets a belt of +4 strength, bringing his score to 20 strength. He wild shapes into a huge earth elemental, bumping that strength up to a 28.
On the chart, a max heavy load for a medium sized creature is 1200 lbs. But you've wild shaped into something Huge, which means you are treated as Gargantuan for your carrying capacity because of this feat. You're a solid stable rock, not standing on two legs, so you get the quadrupedal bonus. Multiply that 1200 lbs. by 12 = 14,400 lbs. Casting Ant Haul on yourself triples this amount: 43,200 lbs. You know what weighs almost that much? A 0-4-0 saddle tank steam locomotive. A druid can carry a solid iron steam locomotive on his back with some strain over long distances.
This gets crazier when you realize that a character is allowed to lift and carry at 5 feet around as a full round action double their maximum capacity. New amount: 86400 lbs. Do you know what weighs almost that much? An 18 wheeler super semi truck complete with 40 ft. trailer.
Then we get to push and drag. The druid can push or drag 5 times his maximum load. 43200 lbs times five = 216,000 lbs! Roughly 108 tons. Do you know what weighs almost that much? AN A380 AIRBUS JUMBO JET. I'm talking the modern, bigger than the Spruce Goose, multiple floors for seating, has a conference room, engineering marvels. The Druid can drag this jumbo jet without wheels.
So I guess my question at this point is, in this world of wooden, brick, and stone houses, what if this druid wants to do things like push over small buildings, yank the support pylons from a dock, drag a ship under water, etc? I know there are some checks for bursting objects, doing damage to objects, and so forth, but they all seem directed at smaller things, like knocking a door off it's hinges. The break DC for an Adamantine Door is 40 for instance. Impossible for even the brawniest raging Barbarian, but this druid has a +9 strength modifier and a +12 bonus for Gargantuan size while a huge Earth Elemental, he is capable of taking a 20 and folding that Adamantine Door like Superman. I feel like there is enough math for me to entertain the Druid's attempt at pushing over a house seriously.
What is the verdict on this? Is there a check for doing something within your weight limit? Can a Druid like this just decide to push the Blacksmith Shop down the street or literally knock over a liquor store?
Well, your basic question is a good one, but remember that you don't actually get the benefit of ANY of your magic items while wildshaped. They temporarily meld into your new form and become nonfunctional, unless you take them off before you wildshape and put them on/pick them up afterward AND they are wearable or usable in the new form, which is seldom the case. So a belt bonus would normally be a moot point.
3.5 had a Wondrous Item called a Wilding Clasp you could attach to items you wanted to be usable in wildshape, such as armor or belts not normally sized for bears or earth elementals. However, I haven't thus far seen any equivalent item in Pathfinder.
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Well, your basic question is a good one, but remember that you don't actually get the benefit of ANY of your magic items while wildshaped. They temporarily meld into your new form and become nonfunctional, unless you take them off before you wildshape and put them on/pick them up afterward AND they are wearable or usable in the new form, which is seldom the case. So a belt bonus would normally be a moot point.
That isn't quite true.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
Whether you can use the items or not, Bull's Strength would do the job just as well.
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You've basically just changed into the Thing from the Fantastic Four, spat 'wotta revoltin' development!' it is that you're that strong, and you consider it strange?
heh. Remember that a size H earth elemental is basically a 16' tall hunk of living granite. I think you WEIGH around 10-15 tons in that form, no? And you're made of rock, not flesh.
So, no, I don't see a problem with this at all. With Powerful build, you're a hunk of rock with veins of steel running through it. Rebar druid! They make skyscrapers out of what you are made of.
==Aelryinth
Well, your basic question is a good one, but remember that you don't actually get the benefit of ANY of your magic items while wildshaped. They temporarily meld into your new form and become nonfunctional, unless you take them off before you wildshape and put them on/pick them up afterward AND they are wearable or usable in the new form, which is seldom the case. So a belt bonus would normally be a moot point.That isn't quite true.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
Ouch!
Well, thanks for fixing my mistake there. I did not realize that this section of the ruleset had a change--oddly enough, no one in any of the games I play or run plays a shapechanger.
I don't have a problem with it. It's pretty cool, actually. Not sure an earth elemental counts as a "quadruped", though.
On that note, the eidolon of a 16th level or higher Summoner can be huge and quadruped, and *still* get hit with enlarge person for good measure. And IME, high level eidolons can get stupidly high strength scores. Maybe we should calculate what one of them could lift/move.
I believe a gigantic earth elemental supplemented by magic should have no trouble knocking over a house. Leave Ant Haul out of your formula though, as it doesn't make you any stronger, only increasing your carrying capacity.
Well, I was already contemplating making a Druid my next character when I got the chance to play one.
This cinches it.
I don't have a problem with it. It's pretty cool, actually. Not sure an earth elemental counts as a "quadruped", though.
When an earth elemental lumbers into action, its actual appearance can vary, although its statistics remain identical to other elementals of its size. Most earth elementals look like terrestrial animals made out of rock, earth, or even crystal, with glowing gemstones for eyes. Larger earth elementals often have a stony humanoid appearance. Bits of vegetation frequently grow in the soil that makes up parts of an earth elemental's body.
No reason a druid can't shapeshift into a quadruped.
So I have been looking at the Powerful Shape feat for druids:
So I guess my question at this point is, in this world of wooden, brick, and stone houses, what if this druid wants to do things like push over small buildings, yank the support pylons from a dock, drag a ship under water, etc?
Approximately the same thing that would happen if he hired a team of titans to do the same thing. Or if his wizard friend decides to use a Wish. The small building would probably fall down, the dock would probably collapse, and the ship would probably be dragged underwater. Possibly at the same time.
Magic doesn't necessarily follow the conventions of our world. This is possibly a point of crucial importance to castle designers, who need to create a defensible structure in a world where not only can enraged druids casually knock over towers, but enraged wizards can disintegrate them and enraged clerics can make them Miraculously turn into loaves and fishes. But I'm not sure why the druid in particular should be the one that worries people.
I don't have a problem with it. It's pretty cool, actually. Not sure an earth elemental counts as a "quadruped", though.When an earth elemental lumbers into action, its actual appearance can vary, although its statistics remain identical to other elementals of its size. Most earth elementals look like terrestrial animals made out of rock, earth, or even crystal, with glowing gemstones for eyes. Larger earth elementals often have a stony humanoid appearance. Bits of vegetation frequently grow in the soil that makes up parts of an earth elemental's body.No reason a druid can't shapeshift into a quadruped.
But are earth elementals specifically quadrupedal? Most of the artwork I've seen makes them vaguely humanoid, and they don't seem to have the other quadrupedal attributes (like resistance to Trip or enhanced movement speed).
Sure, druids can turn into quadrupedal animals, but they don't have as high a strength bonus (IIRC). And they can turn into sharks as well,... but not quadrupedal sharks.
@Orfamay: The difference is that while hiring people costs money, and Wish costs F@%!TONS of money, Wild Shape is FREEEEEEEEE.
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Hmm...never noticed that text. I just always see elementals portrayed as humanoid-shaped. I guess it's an option, then.
As for Eidolon...
Let's go with level 16. Quad base form, since I'm not sure Bipedal w/ limbs(legs) evolution "counts" as a quad or not for carrying stuff.
Strength: 14 +6 str/dex bonus +3 level increases +16 huge evo +2 ability increase evo +6 enhancement belt
Strength of 47, 49 with Enlarge Person. Maybe you can afford more ability boosting evolutions for strength with Half-Elf favored class and Wild-Caller archetype, but I'll stick to just one taking of it.
Cast Ant Haul for x3 capacity.
Huge Eidolon: 16,640 lbs x 6 (huge quad) = 99,840 lb heavy load
With Ant Haul: 299,520 lb heavy load
Gargantuan (enlarged) Eidolon: 22,400 lbs x 12 (Garg. quad) = 268,800 lb heavy load
With Ant Haul: 806,400 lb heavy load
Enlarged, Ant Haul eidolon can thus push/drag up to 4,032,000 lbs. ~4 million pounds, aka 2016 tons.
Remeber the key Carrying Capacity increasing items: Muleback Cords, Masterwork Backpack...
I was going to say, dont forget to add in muleback chords and eldritch heritage: orc in there. thats an extra 14 strength (42 when tripled by ant haul).
Tack on 42 to any of those numbers and see what you come up with :)
This is nothing different than I run into when I run a Champions super hero game. The brick can pick up a main battle ship.
However, what you have to take into account is that while he might have the strength to lift that much mass, the battle ship (or the locomotive engine from above) is not structurally meant to withstand it's entire weight being transferred to two points on it's frame, and it will warp and twist and shatter and break when you try to pick it up. Same for a large rock, it may not be structurally sound when it's entire weight is pivoted on a single 10 inch square point or two.
Now, having dealt with the object being picked up, what are they standing on? Dirt? Then let's say they can pick up the object. Great for them. They're feat are now a foot down as the earth itsel fcan't hold that much weight on two 10 inch squares. Sand? Even worse. Solid rock? Structural integrity of the rock, does it begin to fracture and crack from the force on 10 square inches? Oh, he's standing on a man-made structure, yeah, not going to handle 100,000 lbs on that small a contact surface.
So yeah, not broken.
ya cause a backpack will help you with carrying a tank :P
really tho, a backpack should have absolutely zero impact on what you can drag. What are you doing with it? using it as a strap to hold onto?
That's a very large backpack.
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18,432,000 pounds translates to roughly 10598 tons. Do you know what weighs almost that much? A Seaborn Cruise Line Vacation ship! The same type of cruise ship that was used in Sandra Bullock's magnum opus Speed 2: Cruise Control. Truly Wilhem Defoe's greatest role as a lvl 20 expert who dumped all his ranks into Profession: Cruise Line Technical Support. Your Dragon Disciple Druid Barbomination would be able to push a luxury cruise liner down main street with almost 600 tons of strength left to spare. That means you could do this and still have a backpack full of tanks. Y'know, for sandwiches.
This brings me back to my original question. Carrying capacity doesn't have any checks associated with them. If a gnomish wizard decides to put on some fullplate, he doesn't make checks every round to make sure he can move, so long as it is under his heavy load he merely takes some encumbrance and move speed penalties and can go on his merry way. He can move, or the Fullplate is too heavy and he doesn't. Destroying things does require checks, but at the same time there are some objects you can break without making checks. For instance, if I want to eat a sandwich at a tavern, I do not have to make break checks to bite through the bread and cheese and ham and lettice. It just happens. You can pick up dishes and wash them without having to make a strength check. You have multitudes of strength within your capacity above what is needed to pick up that rock, so there are no checks, you can pick it up and carry it automatically.
Once you can move 10,000 tons, we enter a murky realm where a PC has multitudes of strength within his capacity above what is needed to knock over a liquor store. Normally, there would be a break DC. But there are no break DC's for sand castles, it's understood that a sand castle is nothing compared to average person strength. The PC with 10,000 tons of drag would have more than enough strength to pull Sandra Bullock, Wilhem Defoe, Not Keanu, that guy who wouldn't stop talking about eating gristle, and the entire cast of the non stop ocean thrill ride Speed 2: Cruise Control to their watery graves. Do these checks become automatic?
I don't think it would be too far fetched though to houserule that ability checks don't autofail on natural 1.
Actually, ability checks DON'T autofail on a "1" (and don't autosucceed on a "20").
GM: "The enemies have taken refuge in the old wizard's tower"
Druid: "Ok, i lift up the tower, turn it around, and shake it up till they drop out of the windows"
Of the two characters I'm playing right now...one is a druid...and about to get powerful shape...I'm doing this
BTW thanks for the chuckle....I needed it
As for the whole "what form do elementals take" thing...I have always thought of them like the Furies from Jim Butcher's Caldera series...they are the aspect of the element itself...and they can take whatever shape they $%&! well please :)
I gave incorrect info up above, but here I am again, hoping to get it right this time:
The Ant Haul spell increases carrying capacity. Period. It does not enhance the Strength score itself. It doesn't affect push/drag or Strength checks to break things. Even though drag weight is normally tied to carrying capacity, the Ant Haul spell specifically limits its effects to the weight that can be carried.
So you wouldn't be able to rip a tower from its foundation or push it over or push a cruise ship down the street unless you could do so without the spell.
18,432,000 pounds translates to roughly 10598 tons.
??? A ton is 2,000 pounds. So your number is exactly (not roughly) 9,216 tons. Which would be roughly 8,360 tonnes, but that be an odd number to use since there's no SI units used in Pathfinder.
And even the larger medium sized creatures (like Orcs) have serious issues with organ effectiveness scaling (actually, this would explain why Orcs live so short: Their organs have to work above capacity and thus fail soon), and Giants are right out, so I don't think that really applies in this game
Not sure what that has to do with anything at all I said.
However, your idea that giants are right out are pretty much blown out of the water by elephants and dinosaurs. Both were in the realm of land walking giants, both existed. A human body won't scale up without magic (Andre the Giant is a good example of this). However, nothing says Giants are humans. They are Humanoid. A garden lizard and a kimodo dragon are both lizards, they are vastly different sizes, and have similar but not identical physiology.
First off, the Orc is no bigger than the average football linebacker, who lives the same age as the average gymnast, so that's a bad point. Andre the Giant, who was a medium creature, and had gigantism, is a corner case of a human with 'powerful build'. A giant, no doubt, would have significantly different internal physiology than a human. Mainly to cover the circulatory system, bone structure, musculature, etc. The heart would need to be much bigger, with a thinner type of blood. The blood vessels themsevles would need to be stronger to handle the increased pressure. The nerves would likely incorporate copper or iron to increase conductivity. Alternately, the giant might, like dinosaurs, have nerve clusters (minibrains) to boost the signals and route them on again. They could also have smaller 'aortic arches' like an earthworm does, to push blood through their bodies. Hagfish have similar structures (5 hearts total, 1 main, and 4 smaller auxiliary organs that push blood). Octopi & Squid have 3 hearts (one for each set of gills, and a central). So it's not unreasonable.
Anyway, none of that has anything to do with the fact that a tower is not structurally built to handle being picked up by one edge and shaken without falling apart.
The difference is, that the druid can do this - for far less than wish or titan prices - for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week and 47 weeks a year (human resource suggest strikes should be avoided with that guy, so he gets decent amount of holiday). We are talking here about moving mountains (1 rock of 1000 tons a time or so).
Well, if the titan is a friend of mine, he'll do it for free. I'm not sure what you're paying the druid to fetch and carry for you,.... but I can't imagine a high-level spellcaster's time is that cheap either.
The problem is, Golarion follows a timeline, which leaves geographical structures mostly constant except for the meteorite impact now and then. There are hundreds of lev 16 druids in the world and with little expense each one of them can alter the landscape with a few day of work. Its strange so few would do.
Magic doesn't necessarily follow the conventions of our world.
Well, let me start by suggesting that there are not hundreds of level 16 druids in the world.
And let me also ask -- why would a druid bother? The landscape is perfectly happy where it is.
Basically, don't tick off the druid or he might pick up your castle and shake it to pieces. But this is true of any high-level spell-caster; the sorcerer will simply wash it away with a tsunami.
apart from the fact that my post about the druid picking up the tower being a joke there are 2 things that you haven't considered:
a)actually the tower being torn apart would be a boon to the druid, as it would result in everyone inside taking huge amounts of damage and being pinned under the rumble. I would maybe allow a saving throw for them to jump out of the windows, but then it has also served it's purpose ^^
b)it is fantasy. May i remind you of certain people who used to chop mountains and turn them upside down- without the mountains being split apart or anything?
a) And that's fine, if they can destroy it, that's great. Just remember, most of those bonuses don't increase your lift over head weight, only your carry weight, so picking it up and shaking it apart requires you to be able to do that without mule-back chords for example.
b) If you want to play high-fantasy where people can chop up mountains, you are in the wrong game system. PF/D&D doesn't allow things like that within the rules.
There are hundreds of lev 16 druids in the world
This sounds like the problem right here. In the D&D/PF system, at level 16 you're essentially a god. (With the right spell, you can create your own demi-plane at that level!) If Golarion is supposed to be a world in which people live their lives according to anything resembling the way it's described in the support products, there cannot be hundreds of 16th level anythings running around.
Ok,right, there is at least one level 15 druid per metropolis
If the rules say that, then Golarion cannot exist the way it's described. The setting is internally inconsistent. A lot of people might ignore that, but it sort of jars on anyone who thinks about it for a couple of minutes.
about b:
you do understand that this is straight from DnD right? netharim used to chop the mountains, reverse them, and build their cities on top of them.
their mithals, were used to constantly elevate the mountains, but nowhere is it said that said mithals helped with the integrity of the mountains.
what's more, when the mithals failed, the cities were destroyed because the mountains fell, not because they crumbled under their own weight. this is why there were still some ruins
I understand that there are no rules for mithals, or elevating mountains without destroying them. I do understand that there is fluff about magical artifacts from times long ago within the world history. Background fluff is not rules, it's fluff.
If you have some rules about creating or using Mithals for a character to go bounce a mountain top or two, I'm more than willing to change my stance, but as of now, I repeat there are no rules for bouncing mountaintops on your finger.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/settlements?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Fte mplates%2Fprint%2F
I wasn't claiming the rules didn't support them being there. I'm attempting to point out that, logically, if there are hundreds of gods running around doing whatever they please, then the resulting setting cannot look anything like Golarion supposedly does.
It's a similar problem to that of the Shadow Apocalypse (One undead shadow cannot be fought by a farmer, so it kills him and the "create spawn" ability kicks in, then there are two that prey on two more farmers, etc.; by the time you reach a cleric or guy with a magic weapon, there might be hundreds of them -- too many to overcome. Before you know it the whole world is shadows. That's the logical endpoint of how the rules are written, and it conflicts with how the setting is written.)
There are any number of other examples in which case the rules, as they are written, cannot describe the setting, as it is written. The more of these that pop up, the harder it is to suspend disbelief, and the worse the game is in consequence. Therefore, part of every DM's job is to either (a) introduce in-setting reasons why the logical thrust f the rules never manifests itself in the game; or else (b) amend the rules so that they no longer break the setting.
You claimed that dnd and pathfinder isn't high fantasy, when actually it is the definition of high fantasy (you know, dragons, magic, and etc).
To be fair, "high fantasy" doesn't mean "high-powered fantasy." "High fantasy" is a technical lit-crit term meaning "fantasy in an entirely imaginary universe unrelated to ours."
Tolkien is high fantasy, Eddington is high fantasy, and so probably is Conan the Cimmerian.
The Borrowers is low fantasy; it's happening in nooks and crannies of an ordinary Victorian (or maybe Edwardian) country house. So is Harry Potter, and so was The War for the Oaks, which I recommend strongly.
But "high fantasy" doesn't mean "high magic" or "high powered." Tolkien is practically the definitive "high fantasy" author, but The Lord of the Rings are very strongly low-powered and low-magic.
