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Rules Questions


I have multiple magic items that take a swift action to activate. Can I use a move action to activate a 2nd or even 3rd (2 move actions and 1 swift) in 1 turn?

Also

What constitutes an attack action? Can I use my skirmish ability during a spring attack? It says, if you move at least 10 feet, then take an attack action you can deliver your sneak attack damage.


You have a standard, a move, and a swift/immediate action (and technically a full-round action, but that uses your standard and move actions, or at least prevents them). You can use a standard action in place of a move action, but there is no conversion for turning other actions into swift/immediate actions (unless they make an ability or feat that does so).

No, you cannot 'activate' three swift/immediate actions by using your swift, move, and standard actions. Even if you could substitute another action in place of a swift action, the rules very specifically say that you can only perform one swift/immediate action per turn, regardless of your other actions (unless the ability or action very specifically says so).

Swift Actions wrote:
You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take


for th 2nd question. as long as you moved at least 10 ft before attacking your skirmish ability would trigger on your first attack after moving in that round.

Liberty's Edge

For some abilities, like the Bardic performance, that become "faster" as the character rises in levels, it should be possible to "revert" to the lower speed.

CRB wrote:

Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action.

...
At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action.

As it says "can", using the "faster" speed isn't mandatory.

I don't recall any other ability with that progression, but there are probably others.

Dark Archive

Quote:
Attack Action: An attack action is a type of standard action. Some combat options can modify only this specific sort of action. When taking an attack action, you can apply all appropriate options that modify an attack action. Thus, you can apply both Greater Weapon of the Chosen and Vital Strike to the same attack, as both modify your attack action. You can apply these to any combat option that takes the place of a melee attack made using an attack action (such as the trip combat maneuver), though options that increase damage don’t cause attacks to deal damage if they wouldn’t otherwise do so (such as Vital Strike and trip). You can’t combine options that modify attack actions with standard actions that aren’t attack actions, such as Cleave.
Quote:

FAQ

Can Vital Strike be used on a charge?

No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Charging is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action.

Quote:

FAQ

Can Vital Strike be used with Spring Attack? Can Vital Strike be used on a charge?

No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.

Quote:
Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.

spring attack isnt the attack action, neither is charging so doesnt work for your purposes


Move actions cannot be used as swift actions, but if you wear a Corset of Delicate Moves, once per day as a magic property it will let you use a move action to gain a swift action (but the extra swift action cannot be used to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability).

The Exchange

That is one of the changes from PF1 that I like the best. Starfinder explicitly allows you to "downgrade" your action - use a swift or move in place of a standard and/or a swift in place of a move. So you can take 3 swift actions if you don't take your move or standard. And of course PF2 has "three actions per round, some abilities take more actions to complete than others."

So is it a reasonable house rule to implement something like the Starfinder rule in PF1? Eh, maybe. Using a standard to take a swift is probably fine. But PF1 swift actions tend to be stronger combat boosters than things you can do with move actions. So if you allowed players to take a swift in place of a move, a bow-wielding inquisitor (for example) could bane, judge (in place of a move), and still attack. The overall increase isn't going to be supermassive, so maybe it's OK. Especially if the PCs are mainly facing enemies with multiple swift-action abilities who can also benefit from the house rule. No matter what, I would stick with the limit of one swift action spell per turn.


You can already use a standard action as a swift action in Pathfinder if you wish. It's just that you will have to use a standard action to ready a swift action and you can set that readied action to trigger immediately if you wish, thus converting a standard action into a swift action. Turning a standard action into a move action is also possible. It's just that you cannot normally turn move actions into swift actions, but swift actions are very powerful in Pathfinder so that makes sense.

Silver Crusade

Tom Sampson wrote:
You can already use a standard action as a swift action in Pathfinder if you wish. It's just that you will have to use a standard action to ready a swift action and you can set that readied action to trigger immediately if you wish, thus converting a standard action into a swift action.

While technically true, that still won't let you use more than one swift/immediate action per round, which is what the OP is seeking a way to do. The only way that I know to do it is the Corset of Delicate Moves, as Tom Sampson suggested.

My stonelord paladin has one, pretty much entirely so that he can swift-action lay on hands on himself and assume defensive stance in the same turn when it really matters. He's not high enough level yet to take a 5-foot step while maintaining his stance, but the corset effectively lets him mimic that ability once a day: 5-foot step (ending his stance), swift to lay on hands to remove the fatigue he gained from ending the stance, move (using corset) to re-enter stance, and standard to attack once.


Readying an action is a standard action, not a swift action, so if you ready a swift action (which is explicitly legal) you are just using a standard action as a swift. You still have your normal swift action, so you can get two swift actions that way. Another way to get an extra swift action is to cast Borrowed Time, which you can also obtain through Limited Wish or Miracle, of course.

Dark Archive

Tom Sampson wrote:
Readying an action is a standard action, not a swift action, so if you ready a swift action (which is explicitly legal) you are just using a standard action as a swift. You still have your normal swift action, so you can get two swift actions that way. Another way to get an extra swift action is to cast Borrowed Time, which you can also obtain through Limited Wish or Miracle, of course.

no, since once you use a swift action you no longer have one to ready. You invalidate your own action economy

As soon as any swift action gets used you have no more swift action availability for the rest of the turn.


Readying an action isn't "banking" an action for later. Readying an action uses up a standard action and provides a standard, move, swift, or free action (you choose) when the readied action triggers. You don't need a swift action to ready a swift action, since readying always costs a standard action and only a standard action (Overwatch Vortex excepted), so you can use it to turn a standard action into a second swift action.

Dark Archive

Tom Sampson wrote:
Readying an action isn't "banking" an action for later. Readying an action uses up a standard action and provides a standard, move, swift, or free action (you choose) when the readied action triggers. You don't need a swift action to ready a swift action, since readying always costs a standard action and only a standard action (Overwatch Vortex excepted), so you can use it to turn a standard action into a second swift action.
Swift Actions wrote:


A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.

one per turn. full stop.

"You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take." includes readying an action.


Using a Ready is an interesting concept but it just pushes the decision to the following round. The Home GM now has to resolve the general 1/r limitation with the Readied action; does it use the swift from round the ready was started, does it use the swift from the next/action round when the Ready is triggered(like an out of turn immediate action), does it create a swift action? Then if created, does it affect the expended ready user's next turn by preventing him from using another swift action. Yes, this cornered corner case gets complicated.

Ready does not state it creates a swift action, only that you can prepare one (presumable that you haven't used). Other actions have a RAW conversion like std to move. Again, RAW leaves the details to the Home GM.

Then there's what if the trigger isn't activated AFTER the ready action user's turn?

Lastly, Ready an Action is very open and requires GM approval. You can't just set any trigger or condition and there are Perception limitations.

Starfinder is PF1 light and there are simplifications. IDK. More options aren't a bad thing.


No, by that logic the Corset of Delicate Moves and Borrowed Time should not work either. The text you cite is just explaining that you have 1 swift action during your turn by default. Also, readied actions get to take place outside your turn.

Azothath, the rules are clear on this: readying is a standard action and only a standard action. At the moment it triggers, it provides the action you chose to ready. You do not spend an extra action if you decide to ready a move action or swift action.


magic items are different as spells are different. A whole different can of worms. Spells can violate the normal Rules as that's what they do, no surprise.
There might also be a class ability/feature that allows more than 1 swift action per turn... but again, restricted to that class.

We're in a corner case where a Home GM has to resolve the two sections of RAW to something he thinks is fair. PF1 designers specifically did not create a (mundane) conversion into swift actions and that can't be ignored.
Again, I outlined the 3 options above and an extra consequence or two.
Tom Sampson is supporting the third option.
I have my opinion but I think Home GMs need to make their decision


No matter the decision about Ready & Swift, is it practical to ready every other round (let alone every round) and do nothing(or just move) for an extra swift action assuming the trigger reliably goes off?
I don't think so.


Readying a swift action is explicitly a valid use (see here: "You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition."). Readying is also explicitly a standard action ("Readying is a standard action."). The text is very clear: If you ready a swift action, it costs you a standard action and you may take that swift action when it triggers.

If readying a swift action were only allowed on the condition that you have and maintain an unused swift action (making it inexplicably more punishing than readying a standard action, or a move action for that matter), it would have said so, like it does for the provision that allows you to take a 5-foot step ("You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.").

Ruling otherwise is simply a houserule.

I do agree that it is typically not worthwhile to ready a swift action seeing as standard actions tend to be far more valuable, but it is an option if you wish to do so.


Name Violation wrote:
Swift Actions wrote:


A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.

one per turn. full stop.

"You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take." includes readying an action.

I would point out there is also the difference between a turn and a round. If one would want to be extra sure to follow both rules: as long as the trigger for the readied swift was outside the character's turn, it becomes possible to have two swift actions in a round. Of course, the character wouldn't be able to use an immediate action.

Also since we have the phrase "You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action," GM can use the same reasoning allowed for limiting free actions to limit any swift combos that may disrupt a game. This is keeping in mind that the purpose of defining an action as swift is part of balance design.

Liberty's Edge

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Tom Sampson wrote:

No, by that logic the Corset of Delicate Moves and Borrowed Time should not work either. The text you cite is just explaining that you have 1 swift action during your turn by default. Also, readied actions get to take place outside your turn.

Azothath, the rules are clear on this: readying is a standard action and only a standard action. At the moment it triggers, it provides the action you chose to ready. You do not spend an extra action if you decide to ready a move action or swift action.

Read the text of the item and of the spell:

Corset of Delicate Moves wrote:
Once per day as a move action, the wearer can take an additional swift action.
Borrowed Time wrote:
For the duration of this spell, you gain an extra swift action you can use only during your turn.

Both are specific exceptions, allowed by the specific rule of the item and of the spell. They don't change the general rule.

Liberty's Edge

I grok do u wrote:

I would point out there is also the difference between a turn and a round. If one would want to be extra sure to follow both rules: as long as the trigger for the readied swift was outside the character's turn, it becomes possible to have two swift actions in a round. Of course, the character wouldn't be able to use an immediate action.

Also since we have the phrase "You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action," GM can use the same reasoning allowed for limiting free actions to limit any swift combos that may disrupt a game. This is keeping in mind that the purpose of defining an action as swift is part of balance design.

If the readied action is outside your turn, you can't take a swift action, as those can be taken only during your turn. As usual, the rule text isn't a legal text covering every possibility. :-/

While the Ready action says: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.", it is better to treat it as a continuation of the turn of the character.


Diego Rossi, by your own admission, your ruling hinges on ignoring the rule that readied actions trigger after your turn (and are thus not part of your turn), and asserting that readying a swift action (which is explicitly listed as a valid option) should not function because you cannot take a swift action outside your turn. You cannot take a move action or standard action (and even many a free action) outside your turn either, but these are also explicitly valid applications of the ready action.

You are of course free to rule as you please in your own games, but it's plain that you are promoting a peculiar houserule that would in effect prohibit or penalize readying swift actions, and forgive me for saying so, but I find it a tad disingenuous to explain this as "the rule text isn't a legal text covering every possibility" when the rules text did cover that possibility and you chose to disagree with it.

Dark Archive

you can ready a swift, but are still limited to a single swift in a round

nothing in ready circumvents the only one per round rule


When you Ready or Delay, you are preparing to take an action outside of your current turn, but once triggered, your initiative becomes set at that new time. That is now your turn (not a new turn), it very clearly isn't a new round or extra turn. It's just your turn that was broken up, just like if your normal turn was interrupted by someone else's Ready action. You're just continuing it from the point where a Special Combat Action altered it.

If your initiative is at 20, and you Ready to perform an action (any action, not just a swift) and it triggers on Initiative 10, your initiative becomes 10 and it is your turn (or 10.1 or whatever will set you just before the current actor's turn that triggered it).

You won't make another Poison save at that time if you already did it, your spell durations won't count down at the start or end of that new turn. Just like you can't constantly Delay to make your spell durations last longer. If you took a swift action during your original turn (or an immediate action in between that time and whatever triggered your Ready action) you can't take another swift or immediate action even though they normally would refesh at the start (swift) or end of a character's turn (immediate).


I think some of you are selectively applying the rules :)

CRB wrote:


In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.

How many standard actions do I get on my turn? 1

If I use my standard action to ready a standard action, do I have any standard actions left over to actually ready a standard?

How many move actions do I get on my turn? 1 (though if I have a standard action remaining I can convert it into a 2nd move action)
If I move, then use my only standard action to ready an action to move, don't I need a move action remaining to actually be able to ready said move action?

If you want to suggest that the standard used to ready becomes the standard or move you are performing, you have to explain why that same logic does not carry over to swift actions.

I also think this same line of thinking is ignoring context when you point out that you can only perform one swift action per turn. As I just noted, the rules also point out you only get 1 standard and 1 move per turn. But let's look more closely at the rules on swift.

Swift Actions wrote:


A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.

So yes, it does reiterate that you only get 1 swift per turn. But the context here however is in comparison to free actions (which you can do many of those per turn).

IMO, the same way the standard action you use grants you an extra move or standard action you can use based on a trigger, it would likewise grant an extra swift you can use based on a trigger.

Readied actions are an exception to the general rule that you only get 1 standard, move and swift action per turn. While the few spells and items explicitly state you get an extra swift, readied actions don't need to explicitly state that, because it is plainly implied when it states you can ready any of the action types without referencing that you must have that type of action still available to you - and indeed would be impossible to ready a standard if it required you have one remaining.

That said, readying a swift action is about the worst choice a player could make in a combat. Readied actions are already of extremely limited use, though I commonly see it in my games to attack or cast a single spell when the party wants to try and get the enemy to come to them rather than charging headfirst into the middle of a pack of hostiles. There are extremely few swift actions where it would be beneficial have a trigger condition on. Most swift actions are something you use modify/boost another action you are about to take.


Pizza Lord wrote:
When you Ready or Delay, you are preparing to take an action outside of your current turn, but once triggered, your initiative becomes set at that new time. That is now your turn (not a new turn), it very clearly isn't a new round or extra turn. It's just your turn that was broken up, just like if your normal turn was interrupted by someone else's Ready action. You're just continuing it from the point where a Special Combat Action altered it.

Er, no. We actually covered this entire subject in another thread: Does taking a readied action count as ending your turn again?

The conclusion was that readied actions, when triggered, take place outside your turn and change your position in the turn order afterwards. They do not count as part of your turn, and this ruling is directly supported by the rules text of readying ("The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." <- Clearly, the readied action takes place between your turns, not during them, so it is not your turn while the readied action triggers.), and trying to rule otherwise anyway introduces problems, as discussed in the linked thread.


Tom Sampson wrote:
Er, no. We actually covered this entire subject in another thread: Does taking a readied action count as ending your turn again?

I know. I was the 2nd post in the thread. I made it very clear that Readying doesn't cause start or end of turn events to occur twice in a round. If you haven't checked or saved against an effect that would apply to you, then you do check (you don't check again at the start or end of the initiative order that you used to have). Note: this means specific start or end of turn events not occurring more than once (which we agree on), not that there's some 'End of Turn' phase like in Magic: The Gathering that occurs after a player's turn and that's all they get.

Taking a Swift action either at the start of the round on your turn or Delaying or Readying (and then taking) a Swift action later in the round will use up your Swift (and Immediate) action until your next turn.

Tom Sampson wrote:
The conclusion was that readied actions, when triggered, take place outside your turn and change your position in the turn order afterwards.

First of all, that wasn't the conclusion. The question was whether a character was affected by an 'end of turn' effect (that they hadn't been subjected to) at the point of their original action. No one ever in that thread questioned whether a Ready action takes place outside or inside your 'turn'. That's not the issue there.

Tom Sampson wrote:
They do not count as part of your turn, and this ruling is directly supported by the rules text of readying ("The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." <- Clearly, the readied action takes place between your turns, not during them, so it is not your turn while the readied action triggers.)

Incorrect. The Ready action occurs on your turn. It 100% requires it to be your turn to prepare/ready an action. The 'trigger' that 'triggers' the Ready action occurs outside of your turn (actually you get the option when it occurs to take it, you don't have to, you can wait for a second, similar trigger later if you think it might happen).

The 'trigger' occurs outside your turn and 'triggers' you to take your Readied action, which moves your Initiative (your 'turn') to become that point in time/initiative (just before the character or event that triggered it).

You 'use/prepare' the Ready action on your turn, the trigger occurs when it isn't your turn, but the triggered/readied action is considered your turn, because your initiative/turn is now then. During a Ready action you can also do free or other actions as well as long as they don't violate other time rules placed on characters in a round.
For instance: You can take a 5-foot step during a Ready if you haven't during your original point in initiative. You could also speak or say a line, again, some GMs restrict speech to a set amount of words or time, which means if you used that all up earlier, you might not be able to, because a round is about 6 seconds and if you already spoke 6 seconds earlier,
"Guys, I need you to move out of the way, so I can move up and attack the orc with the greataxe, so back up after you attack!"
(To GM) "I ready to 5-foot step forward and attack when a space opens up."
GM is perfectly in line to not allow any more speech if the Ready action triggers.

The only time this causes problems is with effects triggering twice when they clearly shouldn't, which would be the case with allowing more Swift or Immediate (or any) actions than you can normally take in a round. They also have nothing to do with this post, which is about whether you can use a Standard or move action in place of a Swift/Immediate action (which you cannot). You can use a Standard action to Ready and prepare to use a Swift action, but if you don't have a Swift action available at the time of the triggering event (possibly because you used an Immediate action in the meantime), you can't do it.

This is no different than if you had a move-action ability that you could only do once per round and you did it, then you used your remaining standard action to Ready to try and take that move-action again later in the round (or at the start of the next round before your turn). You can't do it.

TL/DR
The Ready action does allow you to take an action between your turns, but once it triggers, that action point then becomes your turn. Your turn is now there, so there's no more between your turns, because your next turn will be 'there'.

Your interpretation of 'The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.' is misinterpreting the meaning, which is when a trigger occurs between your turns that it means the readied action is outside your turn. It is not. Once you opt to take the Readied action, it becomes your new initiative and turn, but you've still used up any round restricted actions (normally moot, since you can usually only ready a single action, but there are others, like free actions such as a free AoO from Improved Trip if your Readied action was a trip attempt (but not if you've already used all your AoOs before that point in the round) or a 5-foot step that might still be available (but not if you've moved or taken a 5-foot step prior during the round).

So 'No', Readying to take a Swift action later in the round will not give you more than one Swift (or Immediate) action if you've taken one already in the round.


Pizza Lord wrote:
So 'No', Readying to take a Swift action later in the round will not give you more than one Swift (or Immediate) action if you've taken one already in the round.

Can you explain why readying allows more than one standard or move in a round, but not more than one swift in around?

I'll reference the rules again about how many standard, move, and swift actions you get in a round.

CRB wrote:


In a normal ROUND, you can perform A standard action and A move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform ONE swift action and one or more free actions.

Emphasis mine. "A" being synonymous with "ONE" in this context.

What part of the text suggests swift is treated differently from standard and move in regards to readied actions?


Pizza Lord, when a readied action transpires, it clearly says that you take the readied action "after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." This clearly supports the notion that at the point of time that your readied action triggers, it is not your turn. There is no rules text asserting that the readied action nevertheless ought to be treated as part of your turn despite the clear indication that your turn is already over by this point and your next turn has not yet begun, and indeed that strikes me as a counterintuitive inference and one that is unsupported by the rules.

Once triggered, the readied action still does not become your turn. Indeed, your readied action can and typically should interrupt someone else's turn, whereas the initiative count is moved to before their turn (ie. the change in initiative has no real bearing on whether or not it is your turn). It also does not state anywhere that taking the readied action counts as retroactively being part of your previous turn. The text actually states that by this point your turn is already over.

I feel like a lot of these arguments are hung up on the notion that certain types of actions can only happen on your turn so you reconcile it with the Ready action happening outside your turn by creating this sort of tortuous reasoning that a readied action just somehow makes it your turn while you take these actions. It does not. (If it did, the rules would say so, but they don't.) Maybe it will help if I point out that there are other ways to take standard actions outside of your turn as well, such as the Pathfinder Chronicler's Inspire Action performance or the Bard's Heroic Finale spell. Clearly, there is no rules requirement that any time you are having a standard action, it must be your turn. And once we grant that it does not need to be your turn for you to receive a standard action, we can grant that that is the same for readied actions as well, where the text has no indication of it being your turn but clear indication of it not being your turn when you take the readied action (and indeed you can even use that new standard action you received outside your turn from a Bard to ready an action if you please - so what turn of yours would this readied action count as part of when the standard action of readying itself transpires outside your turn?).

All of this goes back to the point that when the readied action triggers, that does not make it count as part of your turn. Your turn is already over according to the rules, and that is the ruling that is backed by the text and makes the most sense.

I will also have to repeat, again, that this sort of frankly dubious rationale is essentially attempting to force an unwritten prohibition or cost to readying swift actions when the rules on readying clearly allow you to just ready a swift action so long as you have a standard action. If they intended a restriction that readying a swift action can only happen so long as you have an unused swift action on top of the standard action, they would have stated that, just as the rules do for the provision that allows you to take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action - where it is clearly indicated that you can do so "only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round."

In brief: The readied action does not retroactively become your turn when it triggers. (It never says that it does.) Since your turn is clearly over by the time it triggers (and your next one clearly has not begun yet), it is not your turn. And you can in fact ready a swift action even if you've already performed a swift action, because the readying rules just use a standard action to supply the new swift action. If that means you get an extra swift action that round, then you get an extra swift action. It's really that simple.


RAW here is not uniformly consistent as the "conditions"/trigger may not occur and that means the creature's initial initiative comes up again. A decision has to be made at that point. It's naive to assume the "conditions" to activate the Ready occurs as it is probabilistic.
I find it amusing that Tom consistently references old & no longer official RAW when he knows better. Continual repetition does not add anything other than inform readers you are focused on that text. Secondly attempting to use spells to define common RAW above was interesting as spells normally violate the rules.

as usual RAW dictates the swift is granted but how it fits into other rules and the flow of combat is a bit fuzzy and a Home GM has to consider how this fits into his game in a fair a balanced manner. Using only existing RAW in a simplistic manner (not that bad) or pedantic blinders in a certain way, or with a bit of GM finesse is fine, it's a GM choice. I'm very surprised someone has not made the specific/general argument as both are rather high level rules.

Personally I find RAW on the triggering condition unhelpfully silent (when meteors fall from the sky somewhere in the universe). Another topic for another day.

--- comment away ---


bbangerter wrote:

Can you explain why readying allows more than one standard or move in a round, but not more than one swift in around?

Yes. Because it says it does. Ready (and Delay) are actually Special Initiative Actions.

Combat wrote:

Special Initiative Actions

Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.

Readying and Delaying change your initiative. They move your turn to another point in Initiative.

Archives of Nethys lists Ready under Standard actions (for ease of reference), but it clearly says

Actions in Combat wrote:
Ready (triggers a standard action)

They are a special maneuver that does that

Ready requires a standard action, but isn't considered a Standard action. Just like Fast Mounting a horse isn't a move action, but you must have one available to attempt it (and use it if you fail the check).

You don't get to cast a Swift spell and then Ready another Swift spell to trigger once your 'current turn' ends to immediately cast another Swift spell. Readying does not refresh or allow taking more actions in a turn than you have. It is a special action that requires a standard action to be available to trigger it whether that actions is a standard, move, or swift or free action itself and wouldn't require a standard action.

Ready allows you to perform a standard action when the stated event triggers because it says it does and that's what it does but it will require a standard action whether that action is a standard, move, or any other action.


Pizza Lord wrote:


Archives of Nethys lists Ready under Standard actions (for ease of reference), but it clearly says
Actions in Combat wrote:
Ready (triggers a standard action)

Ready Actual Rules

But the important part is

Ready wrote:


Readying is a standard action.

Tables in the books have lower precedence in defining the rules than actual rules text. The tables frequently have incomplete descriptions of the rules, or are out right contradictory (like here).

Further, I would not use a table on what triggers an AoO as the definitive answer to what a ready action is given we have full rules text on what a ready action is.

There are other 'problematic' rules created from the what triggers an AoO table if we take the table as the authoritative source.

Pizza Lord wrote:


Ready allows you to perform a standard action when the stated event triggers because it says it does and that's what it does

I agree. I think we should apply this same logic across the board for all readied action types. Because that is what the readied actions rules state without limitation.


Azothath wrote:
RAW here is not uniformly consistent as the "conditions"/trigger may not occur and that means the creature's initial initiative comes up again. A decision has to be made at that point. It's naive to assume the "conditions" to activate the Ready occurs as it is probabilistic.

Probabilism is actually not relevant to the discussion we've had so far, but we did in fact delve into the issues of probabilistic outcomes in the thread I had previously brought to Pizza Lord's attention: Does taking a readied action count as ending your turn again? The ultimate conclusion was that it is precisely because you cannot rely on a readied action to trigger at a specific point in time that it is better to not regard it as part of someone's turn even if you do opt to ignore RAW.

Quote:
I find it amusing that Tom consistently references old & no longer official RAW when he knows better.

Allow me to link the AoN PRD's rules on Readying then. You may compare it to the rules I have previously linked. (They are, in fact, the exact same text, word for word.)

I am disappointed in your willingness to cast aspersions and make accusations without even bothering to do the basic diligence to verify if your accusation holds merit before accusing others. You should know better.

Quote:
Continual repetition does not add anything other than inform readers you are focused on that text.

I find myself citing the rules text because it already answers the basic question "Can you ready a swift action to obtain an additional swift action in a round?" (The answer is plainly yes.), and yet there appears to be an effort exerted in neglecting or sidelining the actual rules text by individuals who prefer to disagree with the rules. I suppose I can add to that that you are now attempting to condescend against the activity of actually citing the relevant rules when discussing them as well.

You are welcome to houserule as you please, but I find this effort in refusing to acknowledge the relevant rules to be odd, especially for the Rules forum.

Quote:
Secondly attempting to use spells to define common RAW above was interesting as spells normally violate the rules.

Actually, there is no special rule that spells get to ignore rules unlike other mechanics. The general principle is simply "specific trumps general." Also, the Pathfinder Chronicler's Inspire Action performance is not a spell.

Quote:
as usual RAW dictates the swift is granted but how it fits into other rules and the flow of combat is a bit fuzzy

With all due respect, if you distance a RAW discussion from the actual relevant rules text, it is only natural that that will of course make resolving RAW more fuzzy. But the fault for that fuzziness would not lie with the rules.

Quote:
and a Home GM has to consider how this fits into his game in a fair a balanced manner.
I see. So we are now deviating from the standards "Rules As Written" and "Rules As Intended" towards the standard of "Rules As I Consider Balanced." But even from that perspective, taking an extra swift action in a round by spending an entire standard action on obtaining it will not break game balance. It is a less powerful option compared to what you usually do with a standard action or a readied action. Indeed, you yourself previously stated as much:
Azothath wrote:

No matter the decision about Ready & Swift, is it practical to ready every other round (let alone every round) and do nothing(or just move) for an extra swift action assuming the trigger reliably goes off?

I don't think so.

If the cost of readying actions and doing nothing with your turn or just moving for an extra swift action is impractical by your own reckoning, then from a balance perspective you are indicating that this would be if anything underpowered rather than overpowered.

May I ask why back then you seemed opposed to such an action on the basis that such usage of a readied swift action would be too unworthwhile but now you appear to be suggesting that perhaps readied swift actions should be banned on the basis that it may be too powerful?

Quote:

Using only existing RAW in a simplistic manner (not that bad) or pedantic blinders in a certain way, or with a bit of GM finesse is fine, it's a GM choice. I'm very surprised someone has not made the specific/general argument as both are rather high level rules.

Personally I find RAW on the triggering condition unhelpfully silent (when meteors fall from the sky somewhere in the universe). Another topic for another day.

--- comment away ---

Well, to each their own, I suppose. I do not think any of us get to claim a monopoly on pedantry. And GMs are certainly welcome to houserule however they prefer in their own games, but I do believe that when we discuss the rules we should stick to the actual rules.

---------

Pizza Lord, "special initiative action" only means that these actions alter your initiative. It has nothing to do with whether you can ready a swift action. Also, the chart you reference is not an exhaustive list of combat activities. It merely explains that readying or triggering a standard action does not provoke an attack of opportunity. (For what it's worth, the ready rules themselves expand on that by noting that the triggered action can itself provoke an attack of opportunity. It is just that being readied or being triggered does not provoke an AoO.)

Furthermore:

Pizza Lord wrote:
Ready requires a standard action, but isn't considered a Standard action. Just like Fast Mounting a horse isn't a move action, but you must have one available to attempt it (and use it if you fail the check).

To be frank, this is simply wrong. Let us look at the relevant rules text for readying (AoN PRD if you prefer): "Readying is a standard action."

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

So from a technical perspective, readying and triggering a standard action means you are performing two standard actions in a round. There is no reason to unfairly restrict readying swift actions, which is also explicitly listed as allowed, to only one in a round.


Ready swift actn old thread post #77 c2014 MSayre comments see also post #85
what is old is new again


First, that is not an official FAQ. Second, he was not involved in Pathfinder Core, where these rules come from. Third, he is mistaking readied actions for actions that occur within your turn, which is in contradiction to the rules text, as previously discussed. Fourth, his ruling hinges on the requirement that you can only take 1 swift action per turn, yet he does not reconcile it with readied actions taking place outside your turn. Fifth, he uses the Combat rules on swift actions (where the 1 swift action per turn text comes from) to trump PF's rules on readying swift actions, but the Combat rules from swift actions are from 3.5E, but back in 3.5, readying a swift action was not a valid option at all. The provision stating you may ready a swift action is an addition Pathfinder Core specifically made, meaning that the rule on readying swift actions is a newer rule than the text regarding swift actions. His ruling essentially serves to largely invalidate the newer Pathfinder rule making the deliberate addition of readying swift actions as a valid option for readying and would return us more to 3.5E's rules when we are playing Pathfinder and not 3.5E.

In brief, his take is not to be taken as authoritative.


Michael Sayre also says this

Michael Sayre wrote:


As regards the readying a swift - Readying is essentially its own standard action that buys you an action at a later date...

He is correct in this.

Then continues

Quote:


...While it is a method of "converting" your standard action to a swift, you're still bound by the normal rules limiting you to one swift action per turn regardless of what other actions you take, so it wouldn't allow you (by current RAW) to get two swift actions into the same turn.

Then makes the same error being made by posters here. He believes the limit of 1 swift per round is somehow different than the 1 standard/move per round, but makes no effort to show why or how they are different.

Azathoth, Pizza Lord, and others. You have to address this core issue. By the rules you get 1 standard, 1 move, and 1 swift per round. Why does that limitation of 1 per turn no longer apply for readied standard/move, but still applies for swift? This is the steel-man argument you cannot in good faith ignore. (Pizza Lord at least attempted it with his appeal to the AoO table).

EDIT: MSayre, does in a later post in that thread state

Quote:


The difference, to me, is that swift actions specifically contain the ruling that you can only take one regardless of what other actions you take.

Emphasis mine. That is pretty much implied by you only get 1 per turn. It's a unneccessary reiteration of what 1 per turn means.

And then

Quote:


The Ready action specifically contains the rules to allow you to take another standard (if you so choose) but does not in any way address the swift action limitation.

If the ready action specifically contains the rules to allow you to take another stanard, why does that not apply to swift? Those are both part of the very first sentance on readied actions.

Quote:


You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.

EDIT2: He further even acknowledges that readying a swift is fine (after using a swift), so long as the trigger does not occur during your turn.

Quote:


So Ready action says "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." So that would mean that the ready action does not happen on your current turn. So you could, potentially, use ready to activate a swift in the same round that you used a swift action, but the trigger couldn't be anything that occurs during your turn. So, using Bane and then readying an action to use Judgement when an enemy attacks you would work, but readying an action to use Judgment when you activate Bane would not.

So your non-authoritative source doesn't even agree with you :)


Space Saver because this Ready stuff is way off topic:
------------------------------------
bbangerter wrote:
"special initiative action" only means that these actions alter your initiative. It has nothing to do with whether you can ready a swift action.

No one anywhere here to my knowledge (definitely not me), has said that you can't use a Ready action to prepare a swift action. Trying to make statements or arguments for or against things that aren't implied or being discussed does not add to your credibility. Otherwise I could just spout out how Initiative is a Dexterity check and is a d20 roll in result to some quote of yours talking about Initiative and act like you somehow implied differently.

You asked why 'something' can do 'something' but not do 'something else'. I pointed out, that 'somethings' can do 'things' because those things are special or exceptions. You then went off on some Attack of Opportunity tangent and ignored the basis of your own question that spawned the reply.

No one is saying you can't Ready to take a 5-foot step, but if you already did so, you can't 5-foot step when your Ready trigger occurs. That's not people saying you can't Ready a 5-foot step. Even if you have one when you Ready, if you somehow use it (like with the Step Up feat) before your trigger occurs, you cannot take the action (or at least, a 5-foot step with the action). This in no way is people saying you can't Ready to do so, only that it is restricted.

As a GM, if you took a 5-foot step and then said you were Readying to take another 5-foot step later, I would definitely tell you that you can't do it, but if you insist, I would allow you to do so, but it probably won't happen when the trigger occurs... but... who knows... maybe sometime in between Readying and the trigger an ally casts a spell on you that gives you an extra 5-foot step that round, same thing with a Swift action... maybe some effect occurs that will grant it. So sure, you can Ready to do an action you can't do (though again, a reasonable GM will point it out and make sure first), because there's a chance something might change about the situation, but that's going beyond a reasonable round or series of events for example purposes.

bbangerter wrote:

Further, I would not use a table on what triggers an AoO as the definitive answer to what a ready action is given we have full rules text on what a ready action is.

. . .
(Pizza Lord at least attempted it with his appeal to the AoO table).

This is just a blatant misrepresentation. That is most definitely not the 'AoO table' or chart. It is very clearly the 'Actions in Combat' chart.

Quote:
See Table: Actions in Combat

It's at the top of the page, it's at the top of the Table and Chart. Just because it includes whether those actions allow an AoO does not have any bearing on what the chart is. I am not even sure what made you think Attacks of Opportunity had any bearing at all, unless you were saying they were refreshed when a Ready action triggers, but I still don't see the point.

I can imagine someone replying that a sword costs X gold pieces and linking to the Equipment chart and you complaining, "Noooo! That's just the Critical Threat and Multiplier Chart! See, it lists the critical threat and multiplier for weapons there! Even though you didn't reference or acknowledge them... and crits had nothing to do with the post topic..."

The fact that you would try and claim that a very clearly labeled page and chart is something that it clearly isn't is both disingenuous and troubling, even if you did have good points on other issues. People want things to go into neat little boxes even when they don't have to. So they now claim dead bodies are objects, and animated objects are creatures, and a non-weapon that is often used as a weapon in common games (like a broken bottle or a torch) gets listed under Weapons, and an action that isn't an action but can perform an action gets listed under Standard and called out as being standard so as not to confuse anyone, even though you won't find Ready listed in Standard actions, but it's own special location, which should indicate that it's an exception and special case.

The link was referenced because it clearly indicates that Ready is a Special Initiative Action and despite being under Standard actions for ease of reference (just like a torch might be found under Weapons, even though it isn't, just because it's a commonly used improvised weapon) that they went out of their way to give Ready the unique delineation that it 'triggers a standard action'. There is NO other standard action on the list that has such a notation, because it is meant to be a special case. It 'triggers' the use of your standard action (even when the action taken is a move or other action type). It does this, because that's what it does, but it doesn't do more. It doesn't give you an 'extra turn' in the round. It doesn't give you more 5-foot steps, it doesn't refresh your AoO's for a round, it doesn't give you any actions over or above what it says it allows you to do.

You keep demanding answers like, 'Why does this thing do the thing it says it can do?" and assume that every other general rule or limitation suddenly can't exist because of an exception. "Can you explain why attacking takes a standard action but an AoO is an attack action that takes no action!?" I guess that means there's no limit to how many standard actions anyone can take in a round!"
"I can Ready an action to Ready an action to Ready an action to Ready an action after that action, at the end of my turn... to Ready an action ... to Ready an action to attack an enemy that Readies an action! I can do that because Ready is just a perfectly ordinary Standard action and not a special case in any way! And now I can get over 9,000! standard actions in a round! So the rules lied!"

No, you just have to understand that some things are exceptions or special cases and when you take a Special Initiative Action, that alters how turns and initiative works and applies in that round, thus requiring reasonable and common sense adjusting based on both the actions taken and other environmental or timed effects that are in play, including restrictions on actions. It is not intended to allow multiple restricted actions that normally require powerful magic items, abilities like Quickness, or mythic abilities like Dual Initiative.

If you want to claim you're getting an 'extra standard action' by Readying, you can claim it, but you're not really, any more than Readying to Ready 10,000 times means you're taking 10,000 standard actions and can try and find some effect somewhere that triggers off you taking a standard action.

Ready is very clearly a special, unique mechanic and action that is different from any other action anywhere, even its cousin Delay. The fact that they specify for it that it 'triggers a standard action' when that is not listed or used for any other action anywhere and the fact that it changes your initiative (which is when you take your turn) makes it very different from almost any other action. Any reasonable person can look at it and realize that it does unique and potentially powerful things, but that doesn't make it break all the other rules laid out without saying it does. Just like Mounting a Horse is a move-action (I'd quote it for you, but you'd probably think I was talking about AoO's instead of move actions), but Fast-Mounting/Dismounting is not a move action (but it will trigger one if you fail to do it, so it requires one).

Quote:

(What the heck, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.)

See Table: Actions in Combat

Even though the actions are different they ultimately result in the same outcome, being mounted (or dismounted) and if I Ready to attack you when you mount (or dismount) a horse, and you attempting to get around it by claiming you're Fast Mounting (or Dismounting) and not 'mounting' (even if technically true that it's a different action) would likely be viewed as poor sportsmanship (if not attempted cheating). Ready is not intended to allow you to break other rules for restricted actions, allow multiple turns, or multiple actions beyond what it says it does. A Swift action is not a Standard action. Even if you want to mentally gymnastic it to where it now RAW means you are taking two Standard actions in a round (rather than just preparing to take one later) doesn't mean it allows two Swift or Immediate actions or gives you more free actions than you're entitled to (such as more free-action talking if you've spoken more than 6 seconds, a full round, worth of words).

------------------------------------


TheGlitch27 wrote:
Can I use a move action to activate a 2nd or even 3rd (2 move actions and 1 swift) in 1 turn?

The purpose of this topic, was whether the OP could substitute a move or standard action to take more than 1 swift action on their turn (and there was a skirmish question in there too). You continuing to claim that Readying is a standard that lets you take a swift is irrelevant, because a Readied action must be triggered between turns (specifically, 'before your next action'), therefore it cannot be used to take a second swift action in that turn. Whether you believe the Ready action does or does not start a new turn, it is not 'that' turn. And if you did think that it was just an extension of the original turn... then you can't take more than one swift action in that turn.

I get there that there can be some tangents once in a while, but at some point it detracts from the actual topic and I don't want to continue to be a factor in that. I am not saying you can't reply or continue on with it, but I am not going to continue to clutter up the topic here with it. If you want to go into more depth on it, start a new topic and I might engage more there. This is about whether you can convert standard, move, or other actions into a swift action to get more in a turn, not about whether Readying an action means you're getting more standard (or swift) actions in a round.


Pizza Lord, this is very simple. Readying is a standard action, and when triggered it gives you a swift action. That is enough to produce a swift action with a standard action. All these arguments to the contrary are tantamount to a position that "yes, you can ready a swift action but that doesn't mean you can actually get a swift action by readying it" which is frankly nonsense. This is over-limiting readying swift actions in ways no other ready action is, and the primary text used to assert this is old text copied from 3.5E when readying swifts was not even an option (so there cannot have been any intention there to affect the rules on readying swift actions) whereas Pathfinder Core specifically made a change to allow it. This isn't actually complicated. If you can ready a swift action, the standard action of readying produces a swift action upon being triggered. That's what it is supposed to do, and that is what it does.


Pizza Lord wrote:


bbangerter wrote:
"special initiative action" only means that these actions alter your initiative. It has nothing to do with whether you can ready a swift action.

This quote is misattributed. Tom Sampson said that, not me.

Pizza Lord wrote:


bbangerter wrote:


(Pizza Lord at least attempted it with his appeal to the AoO table).

This is just a blatant misrepresentation. That is most definitely not the 'AoO table' or chart. It is very clearly the 'Actions in Combat' chart.

My referring to it as the AoO table was merely an off hand comment, not an intent to represent (accurately or inaccurately) what you were saying. It was intended merely as a reference to the AoN link you provided.

Just an additional side note on that. If the table were an accurate description of what a readied action is and allows, then a swift action would not be allowed at all. As "triggers a standard action" would imply you can take a standard or a move. Standard to swift, or move to swift, are not allowed as a base rule.

Pizza Lord wrote:


No, you just have to understand that some things are exceptions or special cases and when you take a Special Initiative Action, that alters how turns and initiative works and applies in that round, thus requiring reasonable and common sense adjusting based on both the actions taken and other environmental or timed effects that are in play, including restrictions on actions. It is not intended to allow multiple restricted actions that normally require powerful magic items, abilities like Quickness, or mythic abilities like Dual Initiative.

I totally understand that some things are exceptions and special cases. Like "Special Initiative Actions" is a special case - that is precisely why I argue that you can ready a swift even if you have already used a swift. And that in order to get more than 1 move action per turn (outside of converting your standard to a move) you need a "...powerful magic items, abilities..." like a quicker runners shirt, or a special action like readying an action. The logic for readied actions should be consistent across the board unless we find text that tells us it behaves differently for some action types. Hence my very first sentence in my very first post in this thread "some of you are selectively applying the rules".

Pizza Lord wrote:


You keep demanding answers like, 'Why does this thing do the thing it says it can do?"

No. What I am demanding is an explanation of why a thing does what is says it does, except when you arbitrarily decide that it doesn't.

Pizza Lord wrote:


The purpose of this topic, was whether the OP could substitute a move or standard action to take more than 1 swift action on their turn (and there was a skirmish question in there too). You continuing to claim that Readying is a standard that lets you take a swift is irrelevant, because a Readied action must be triggered between turns (specifically, 'before your next action'), therefore it cannot be used to take a second swift action in that turn. Whether you believe the Ready action does or does not start a new turn, it is not 'that' turn. And if you did think that it was just an extension of the original turn... then you can't take more than one swift action in that turn.

I think you are mistaking another posters words for mine?

Readying ends your turn, the special action you take on the trigger condition occurs outside of your turn. I think we are in agreement on that?

Let me phrase this another way (even if you choose not to respond).
Specific > General hierarchy of rules
Is the 1 standard action per round rule a base rule or a specific rule?
Is the 1 move action per round rule a base rule or a specific rule?
Is the 1 swift action per round rule a base rule or a specific rule?
Is the readied action rules letting you spend a standard action to ready a standard/move/swift/free action more general, or more specific than the above 3 rules?

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