This is marvelous...thank you, Wes!
Dottination.
Contributor
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Are there any full deities in Hell other than Asmodeus? It's rather huge, and most major planes house multiple deities, but I haven't heard of any having specific domains there.
I note that the Asuras are placed in Hell, in PF, and they do have demigod-powered rules - the Ranas.
How does that work, Wes?
Are there any full deities in Hell other than Asmodeus? It's rather huge, and most major planes house multiple deities, but I haven't heard of any having specific domains there.
Yes. Though I can't think of any we've talked about (Dragon Empires perhaps, or others just slipping my mind). Zon-Kuthon has his own place on the Plane of Shadow. Jeff is right to point out the asura Ranas.
A good rule of thumb is to just go by alignment. If we haven't said a LE deity has a home elsewhere there's a good chance they have a home in Hell.
I note that the Asuras are placed in Hell, in PF, and they do have demigod-powered rules - the Ranas.
How does that work, Wes?
Every layer of Hell is massive beyond reasoning. Beyond the walls of Dis are frontiers the city hasn't reached, in the depths of Stygia are wilds few creatures have returned from, in Malebolge are bolgias the size of continents. There's room for anything in these places. While devils might be the most pervasive residents of Hell, there are others residents who make better allies than enemies, share infernal goals and thus aren't worth opposing, or that are entrenched enough not to contest--for now.
Belial's!? Belial's got nothing but love for women... and men... and the dead... and the undead... and salmon... and vultures... and owlbears... and ant swarms... and flesh golems... and iron golems... and gibbering mouthers... and sycamore trees... and your grandmother's church... and your childhood stuffed animals... and...
This really jumps out as "fallen angel" to me. To take something good and twist and corrupt it so much ...
In fact, it makes me kind of worried for you, Mr. Schneider. Are you sure you're ... OK?
Are their any interactions/relationships you can elaborate on between Asmodeus and the following deities?
Lamashtu- Pathfinder doesn't have the same demon/devil conflict that standard d&d has, but I'm curious about what conflicts(beyond her stealing from his kennels) these two have had. She's on the short list of deities he won't deal with, for obvious reasons, but have they ever had any personal interaction or meaningful conflict?
Charon- I've always imagined their relationship, however antagonistic, to be one of mutual respect, even if Asmodeus considers himself above Charon due to the daemon's status as a demigod. How far off base am I on this?
Dahak and/or Tiamat- One doesn't see Asmodeus having much influence on draconic affairs. Does he have any history with these deities and does he have many/any draconic worshipers at all?
The gods of the dark tapestry in general- Does he see them more as a threat on par with Rovagug; something that may require uniting with the other gods in order to combat? Does he see them more as rivals competing for wicked souls? Or does he see them as an asset he can use(Barbatos had to come from somewhere...)? Or a combination of the above?
Treerazer- How much would Asmodeus appreciate Treerazer's head being presented to him by one of his worshipers? Or would he prefer Treerazer bound and alive? Would he care, either way?
In fact, it makes me kind of worried for you, Mr. Schneider. Are you sure you're ... OK?
Totally. Writing is exorcism are pretty much the same thing after all. :)
What does Asmodeus think of the Asura's and Kytons? Are they just neighbors, tolerated wildlife, competition, or in the case of Asuras abominations?
When they keep to themselves and don't impede his work, he's probably fine with most of them. If they get in the way or become threats, well, then they become problems and need to be dealt with.
Overall, though, they're of similar minds and methods, and while everything is not always lovey dovey, there are far bigger threats and factions to crusade against besides other lawful evil outsiders.
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Ardad Lili is Lilith. You see the name in the vardat lilitu, or "maiden spirits" associated with her, and by extension "Lili"-th. She's also mightily inspired by Lilth NSFW LINK) from Wayne Barlow's awesomely grotesque art and novel God's Demon. If there's a true queen in Hell, it's Ardad Lili. But she's not really interested in ruling there. She has other plans.
Heh heh.
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First, directly on-topic: Two of my favorite old TD Articles were Ed Greenwood's writeups on the Nine Hells. I liked the additional subaltern Dukes, Lords, Princesses, wandering unique devils (i.e. of Avernus).
Will anything along those lines see the light of day in Pathfinder-publication? I'd certainly look forward to your take on a range of unique devils.
You're right that in recent years (the last decade or so, at least), write-ups for demons have been far more interesting. I'd love to see a livelier Hell (and indeed a livelier middle-lower-plains; the forgotten plains between the Abyss & Hell. But for now I'd be happy with this).
Now, a critique:
Alignment in Hell
I really enjoy the D&D/Pathfinder alignment system--probably because I played a lot of Planescape back in the day. But what's always irked me is the perception many players and designers seem to have that the alignment grid is actually a spectrum, with lawful good being the "goodest-good" and chaotic evil being the "baddest-bad."
Unfortunately, Paizo sees it as a spectrum, too; for example I just got & read the (generally good) recently released "Ultimate Campaign," and it's clear that while Paizo's staff can't think of anything that they would see as a "downside" (or potential pitfall) of Neutral Good or even Chaotic Good, they see Lawful Good as evil in all but name (or at least dangerously close to slipping into evil).
I've had Mr. Reynolds describe Lawful Good as "totalitarian" to me (while, in reality, there is nothing Lawful about totalitarianism - totalitarianism is arbitrary exercise of authority, discretion in the hands of those in power to act on their whim/"on a case by case basis," and any rules that exist are made to be broken by those in power, or at any rate do not bind them. This is *not* Lawfulness).
I won't go further on this here as it isn't really pertinant to the topic, but I just felt the need to highlight the fact that pointing fingers at "gamers" on this is inapt, since Paizo does it too, and, in general, it's been a looooonnnggggg time even in the general gaming community since Lawful Good was seen as "True Good" (most of them are on board with you all, since to them Chaotic Good means their characters can do what they want, with good defined as good for themselves and their friends, but without the hang-ups of people telling them that, for example, torturing orcs is wrong or killing captives is wrong. Contra Mr. Reynolds, the typical "Party Paladin" problem has never been that the Lawful-Good Paladin is willing to sacrifice individual rights in this way and, say, torture enemies, while the rest of the party held him back. Rather, the "party Paladin" has always been seen as a problem because they're typically run as deontologists who would let the heavens fall rather than do injustice, while the Chaotic "Good" characters are run as instrumental utiltarians; again, in practice).
(Personal note: the personal bonus of the write-ups in "Ultimate Campaign" is that it ascribed "for the greater good" to Neutral Good, which is directly relevant to Mr. Reynolds' PM reply to me on this last summer...now, going by Paizo's own description, if he interprets that the same way - consistently - he'll have to say that it is *neutral* *good* that behaves in the way he described in that PM.)
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If anyone does know, I would bet on Dispater, Baalzebul, Ardad Lili... maybe Shelyn... and maybe Urgathoa.
Wait...what? Why would she know anything about that? I would think Calistria would know more than her.
Wasn't Urgathoa still alive back then? Pure conjecture since we don't know exactly when it was she died and then decided to skip the lunch line to the boneyard but still, the thought that she might have something to do with Asmodeus misogyny is intriguing.
Are their any interactions/relationships you can elaborate on between Asmodeus and the following deities?
Not that I believe we've talked about in canon in any significant way. Beyond getting down the rabbit hole on my personal opinions and ideas, a few things to consider about Asmodeus as you decide to flesh him out in your game.
Pride: Pride is a deity, and an experienced deity at that. The machinations of young gods, the gambols of demigods, the rampages of mythic-level threats, what are they to him. Does he care about what this demigod or that world ruler is doing, maybe if it directly affects one of his million pet projects, but otherwise, let them be useful when they're useful, leave them be if they might be useful later or aren't dangerous enough to destroy, and eradicate them if they present a problem without redeeming virtues. And even then, he's got people for most of that. It's hard for something to rise to his attention, but when it does, it's big and it's probably, eventually, going to go in his favor.
Genius: If there's ever been a character you can always play as being thirty steps ahead of the PCs, it's Asmodeus. Even when he's lost, he's still probably won in some way. The PCs might have killed his archpriest, but they had to get item X out of its vault or have ally Y come out of hiding, allowing Asmodeus to strike--as was his plan all along. That strike might not come until a century after the PCs are dead, so it's all the same as winning to them, but what does he care that ants are celebrating an accomplishment that means nothing. With him, you always get to say "It was his plan all along."
Experience: Whatever it is, Asmodeus has probably done it before. Upstart enemies, upstart allies, worlds to corrupt, enemies to tempt, enemies to ally with, neutral parties to bribe, pawns to manipulate, pawns to sacrifice, resources to barter for, resources to steal, resources to give away, he's done it all, he knows how to do it all, he knows when to do it all, he is a god of evil.
Patience: Asmodeus has been around since almost the beginning, and plans to be around for the end. His age is measured on a galactic scale. If something doesn't go his way, in an age--the same as a blink for him--he can try again. There's little in the multiverse that needs to happen in THAT moment, and he's got all the time in existance.
Practicality: Asmodeus might have his preferences and his personal tastes, but he's too smart to make himself an enemy to his own goals. If he needs to work with Iomedae to get a job done, he will--and will try to get the most out of the relationship while he does. If it makes sense to ally with Lamashtu (and if she agreed), and the cost is worth it for the goal, he will. He is constantly weighing and measuring, determining the costs and the benefits, and will do anything to get what he wants. Typically, though, the problem isn't him, it's other deities knowing his reputation. Asmodeus will willingly cooperate with anyone who has something to bring to the table, it's more often a question of who willingly comes to the table.
Beyond this, a good rule of thumb is that creatures of similar alignments get on relatively well, while those more distant find fewer commonalities and points of shared interest. So for Asmodeus, NE, LN, NE, and N creatures of all walks can probably get on well with with him, and he likely has worshipers from their ranks if we're talking about races. Beyond that, we get into the realm of exceptions to the common rule.
Hope this helps!
In fact, it makes me kind of worried for you, Mr. Schneider. Are you sure you're ... OK?Totally. Writing is exorcism are pretty much the same thing after all. :)
At least, that's how I've always written :)
Sometimes you just have to wake up at 3am and purge yourself :DD
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Did Dispater's first wife actually land in Hell during the Fall?The god Dis Pater's wife was Proserpina (Persephone)...
Not that this is the same guy, precisely. But I want to think that she isn't there, or is at least non-evil.
The idea of her being "differently fallen" and therefore struck from Dispater's memory does have some real dramatic appeal to it. :)
Or the notion that she was turned into one of the faceless souls making up Dis and Dispater can't even recognize her right in front of him anymore...
I've been wondering about the Kytons. Were they the original result of Hell acting on damned souls, before Asmodeus sweet-talked the entire plane into being all about him instead?
I liked the additional subaltern Dukes, Lords, Princesses, wandering unique devils (i.e. of Avernus).
Will anything along those lines see the light of day in Pathfinder-publication? I'd certainly look forward to your take on a range of unique devils.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Book of the Damned Volume #1, Princes of Darkness presents literally dozens of demigod-level Infernal Dukes, Whore Queens, and Malbranche beyond the Archdevils and Asmodeus himself. Inner Sea Bestiary stats up another. The two KQ articles I did also introduce more demigods related to hell, whether they be Infernal Dukes or Dispater's past wives. So there's a bunch out there and I'm sure more will come down the road. If you haven't checked these out, it sounds like they're right up your alley!
Now, a critique...
This does seem to get pretty off topic. If you're looking for more examples of interpretations of alignment and how you might use it in your game, I would direct you toward the discussion on page 68 of the GameMastery Guide, which offers a variety of ways of handling alignment in your game, or Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity that spends two pages focused on each of the good alignments (including Lawful Good; and the word totalitarian does not appear in the entire book).
It's great Sean has been so communicative and forthcoming with his advice, but also encourage everyone to remember that outside of printed products, errata, and similar official products that the opinions and ideas presented by the staff on these boards is meant to be helpful advice, inspirational ideas, even scintillating conversation, but not canon material, representations of the entire creative staff, or inclusive summaries of our entire body of work.
Dotting (this material's awesome!), and question(s)!
In Book of the Damned #1, Princes of Darkness, the (presumably) infernal duke Orobas does not appear in the listing on the back cover, yet he has his sigil illustrated (p.42), and is mentioned by title (I think - could be wrong about that...).
Is Orobas meant to have been on the list, or is he just one of many that did not make it?
And if it was an accidental and not intentional omission, what would be the details of Orobas (portfolio, domains, weapon)?
Please and thank you.
Carry on.
--C.
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Dotting so I can follow.
This thread is absolutely amazing. I soak up every scrap of material I can find about the Archdevils and Demon Princes and Daemon Lords, and getting to see the fine print of this Faustian contract from the devil who wrote it is magnificent. Thank you :)
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Mr Schneider, where are cambions detailed? I have a 13th level inquisitor of Asmodeus that entered into an infernal contract with Asmodeus in return for the souls of the two main antagonists in CoT he would be promoted to a cambion / 1/2 devil and was wondering where I might find out what powers he now has?
Is Orobas meant to have been on the list, or is he just one of many that did not make it?
And if it was an accidental and not intentional omission, what would be the details of Orobas (portfolio, domains, weapon)?
There are a bunch more infernal dukes beyond the ones listed in the Book of the Damned. As we have opportunities I'm sure more will trickle out.
There's one other mention of Orobas in out products, page 71 of Bestiary 1. Beyond that, if you want more details on him, I'd start here.
Mr Schneider, where are cambions detailed? I have a 13th level inquisitor of Asmodeus that entered into an infernal contract with Asmodeus in return for the souls of the two main antagonists in CoT he would be promoted to a cambion / 1/2 devil and was wondering where I might find out what powers he now has?
I'm pretty sure we haven't done anything with cambions yet. If you want to make a character a half-devil, though, I'd use either the half-fiend template or the infernal tiefling in Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends, depending on how strong you want to make her.
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Dotting so I can follow.
This thread is absolutely amazing. I soak up every scrap of material I can find about the Archdevils and Demon Princes and Daemon Lords, and getting to see the fine print of this Faustian contract from the devil who wrote it is magnificent. Thank you :)
Ha! My pleasure!
The idea of her being "differently fallen" and therefore struck from Dispater's memory does have some real dramatic appeal to it. :)
Or the notion that she was turned into one of the faceless souls making up Dis and Dispater can't even recognize her right in front of him anymore...
Interesting. We don't know much about her, so we'll see!
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I've been wondering about the Kytons. Were they the original result of Hell acting on damned souls, before Asmodeus sweet-talked the entire plane into being all about him instead?
No... I think kytons are maybe something more insidious. Like damned souls acting on damned souls. The struggle for perfection and redemption as acted on by psyches that can't truly fathom those ideals.
They might be a virus...
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Is there anything you can tell us about Xaphan, He who burns the Heavens? He appears in B1 as a name but beyond that I don't think you guys have done much on him is he a character you are interested in exploring or just a name there for gm's and players to build off of?
Also Asmodeus and the Pit really don't have much of an opinion on Asuras? As creatures that are literally the mistakes of gods and seek to defile most things as an act of rebellion they would seem like a creature that the head of the Pit would have a dislike of.
What are your favorite devils and why?
What are your least favorite, why, and what would you do to improve them?
What are your thoughts on the Advodazas, how do they fit into the heirarchy of hell and what purposes do they serve? Are they actually given any of the power and respect they deserve thanks to their original existence as primal deities or are they treated like silver medal pit fiends? Also how come we don't see equivalents of them amongst some of the other outsiders like demons, daemons, or even the Asura?
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Given the Malbranche and all the myriad worlds out on the Material, what kind of advanced technology might we see in what regions of Hell, or rather, how would Hell spin that technology?
Could infernal cybernetics be a thing within Hell, or would that be something found more on the material plane?
Ooh, very good question there. I've been wondering the same thing (not just with Hell, but with the planes in general), given their connection to all the parts of the Material Plane.
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Which layer of Hell would you most / least like to be stuck in?
What can you tell us about Typhon? Was Avernus significantly different when he was around? Is there a place for fallen Archdevils like the Rift of Repose for Demon Lords? What would it take to bring him back?
Are their any interactions/relationships you can elaborate on between Asmodeus and the following deities?Not that I believe we've talked about in canon in any significant way. Beyond getting down the rabbit hole on my personal opinions and ideas, a few things to consider about Asmodeus as you decide to flesh him out in your game.
As it happens, your own personal opinions & ideas were the exact rabbit hole I was hoping to go down- not that the advice you gave wasn't helpful, of course, it was.
I have my own opinions, ideas, and what not involving most all the gods, and especially Asmodeus, as he happens to be my favorite(though in my own game, Asmodeus is equal parts the D&D version, the Golarion version, and my own personal touches). Still, I'm always looking for inspiration, and if you can share any bits and pieces that you know probably won't make it into published canon just as food for thought, it would be much appreciated.
Of course, if not, completely understandable.
Also, unrelated, if you were to cast Asmodeus in a pathfinder film and/or video game, who would you like to portray him? Physically in film, vocally in game?
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Wes, thanks for doing this. Two things for ya:
In the back cover of BotD volume 1, the Infernal Duke Bifrons has that pesky Creation domain. for my strictly-Pathfinder game, would a suitable replacement domain be Artifice or would you recommend something else?
Also, the Infernal Duke Quindiovatos has the Glory domain, which has some spells within it with the [good] descriptor. How would you handle this in a game?
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presents literally dozens of demigod-level Infernal Dukes, Whore Queens, and Malbranche beyond the Archdevils and Asmodeus himself. Inner Sea Bestiary stats up another. The two KQ articles I did also introduce more demigods related to hell, whether they be Infernal Dukes or Dispater's past wives. So there's a bunch out there and I'm sure more will come down the road. If you haven't checked these out, it sounds like they're right up your alley!
Thanks; I've been putting off buying those for unknown reasons but I'll be sure to check them out. ^_^
It's great Sean has been so communicative and forthcoming with his advice, but also encourage everyone to remember that outside of printed products, errata, and similar official products that the opinions and ideas presented by the staff on these boards is meant to be helpful advice, inspirational ideas, even scintillating conversation, but not canon material, representations of the entire creative staff, or inclusive summaries of our entire...
I certainly did (and do) appreciate his (and your) response. It also explained a lot, because certainly a designer's understanding of a concept such as alignment informs how it is written and portrayed in canon.
(and his reply came in the context of an issue I had with how devil-influenced Cheliax's law codes were described).
Aside that's back-on-topic:
So why did Hell's rulers never seem like Hannibal Lecter? Saruman? Palpatine? Maybe because convincing master plots by beings with deity-level intelligence are difficult for we mere mortals to convincingly write?
I think actually part of this comes from something that happened early on in "this type of game" - when Demogorgon was given 1 more HP than Asmodeus in the first write up. Also when a demon queen of spiders became the "big bad" culminating villain in what could be called the original AP (GDQ). That's possibly why Paizo itself used Demogorgon as the ultimate villain of it's final Dungeon AP (though you would know more than me why) - a great AP to be sure. But Demogorgon was seen as "the most powerful critter on the lower plains" by all gamers for decades precisely because E.G.G. made him slightly more powerful than Asmodeus, so he became "the one to beat if you want to beat the man."
(Also there is the whole Orcus thing, I suppose). This doesn't perfectly explain why demons get used more - but in my experience, including with published adventures, Pit Fiends get used at least as often as Balor Demons. (Succubi get used way more than Erynies - but that's because if one goes "hidden seductress from the lower planes," succubi fit but Erynies really don't; designers haven't consistently portrayed them as seducer-infiltrators).
I do agree that designers have a hard time doing Lawful Evil correctly; which gets me back to what prompted my initial PM to Sean almost a year ago - devil-influenced Cheliax's law code reduces to not being a code at all, because designers - including Paizo's *do* see the alignments as a spectrum, and they're still influenced (subconsciously) by legal positivism: law is defined as a book of laws, and "more lawful" as "having moar laws. MOAR!" - till the "laws" become contradictory, and then those using them can find anything in them giving them a rationale for arbitrary decision-making. . .and IMO then they've been reduced to chaotic (arbitrary government).
In that same PM I sent I started off by complementing Mr. Reynolds on the design & characterization of Iomedae (and expressed a hope she won't get ruined-by-events. I'm a bit gun-shy after what happened to, say, many FR dieties...); I said (and still believe) that Iomedae is the best-designed LG diety since Torm. Now Torm was always decently written, but what put him over in my mind was one line from "Faiths & Pantheons" (Sean K Reynolds, developer): "Question unjust laws by suggesting improvements or alternatives, not aditional laws" - yes, this!" - that is, Lawful isn't just "moar laws," it's a commitment to a code (say, natural law), and written law is expressed through and based on that code, and if the written law comes to contradict whatever code of behavior/principles is supposed to inform/underlay it, then it ceases to be Lawful in the alignment-sense.
Thus, getting back to devils, when you wrote "In this way, Hell is slavery and torment for devils as much as it is for the souls damned to its pits." - this is true (Lawful Evil of the "pure" devilish sort): as long as it is understood to include Asmodeus himself, because, even Asmodeus is bound - chained - by rules, even if they are "only his own" - he cannot do whatever he wants, he does not have arbitrary discretion (as, say, a Demon might). He must abide by some sort of order - even if it is not understood by mortals (and thus has loopholes, or whatnot). But it cannot be internally contradictory or self-negating. (And IMO this is where the description of Cheliax's laws went wrong, describing them as so complex that anyone can find in them both X and not-X). This does not mean Lawful Evil (or even Lawful-Neutral-Evil, or even Lawful Neutral) law has to be "nice," or used "nicely," or applied to everyone equally (that is, penalties for those in power - as written into the code - might be less than for those under them; - while a LG law code might hold people in authority to a *higher* standard). They can be harsh, even horrific (as I assume Hell's own laws & penalties) are; they can be evil, but they still, by definition, impose limitations (constraints) on those who govern, not just the governed, because they must adhere to this code and cannot be arbitrary (chaotic).
But even chaotic places might have positive-law. It is in those places where one will find contradiction and arbitrary discretion for those in power. In hell, hell is slavery because even those in charge are bound by a harsh and unjust law. Designers *do* have a difficult time portraying that, perhaps because then it becomes difficult to write-ones-storyline-out-of-corners. With demons, they can always just say "whatevah, I do what I want!" (this is, IMO, why a lot of fictional - and even, IMO, IRL - evil-organizations may have LE minions and underlings, the guy at the top - the villains cited as examples - are usually more CE, or NE; an Iuz or Ivid is just easier to write if he's explicitly CE, and big bads who have their alignments *written* as LE are usually depicted incorrectly, behaving interchangeably with CE ones. LE is more difficult to do correctly...because it constrains even writers and designers; with CE, literally anything goes; thus artistic-types embrace chaos and abhor - or at least eschew - the nomos).
I've been seriously consumed for some odd reason with Ruithvein the Blood Emperor, for probably a week now.
Why was he the third vampire? More importantly, where are the first and second? Was he turned by the first or second? How did he end up in Hell? What does he do these days? What does he look like? Is he around the power level of Luvick Siervage? Beyond?
I know a lot of these questions probably don't have answers that can be given, but what sort of things can we know about this Blood Emperor?
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Are their any interactions/relationships you can elaborate on between Asmodeus and the following deities?
I'm going to try and take these at a relatively fast clip:
Lamashtu: Probably the most complicated of these, as she's a legitimate deity with evil interests that overlap with Asmodeus. I suspect they don't get along well at all, their methods are too different while their desire for corrupting mortals is so similar. Two cooks in a kitchen that could never be big enough. Add to that Lamashtu's rise through the ranks of demonkind and you've probably got some good reasons for Asmodeus to look down on her. Overall, you don't need a Blood War for demons and devils to just not like each other.
Charon: I see Charon is pretty aloof in planar politics (I touched on this a bit in the Dispater article I think). And Asmodeus certainly would consider himself greater than Charon--he'll go out of his way to do that in almost any interaction, even if he doesn't flaunt it. But neither has any direct reason to oppose the other and Charon's influence over travel on the River Styx makes him particularly useful. He's just hard to bargain with though, because he's a death deity and it's hard to inflame such creatures' barely existent passions.
Dahak: He certainly would have draconic worshipers. There two reasons we don't hear more about the deity's interactions in monster races:
(Out of game) Generally, all Pathfinder products are to an extent humanocentric (or, at least, core-race-centric), so given the opportunity to define a deity's interaction with elves or derro, we're going to pick elves every time. We'll save the derro details for the book/article about derro, and the dragon details for articles more focused on dragons.
(In game) Dragons do not have a social culture, so religion doesn't spread swiftly between them. Dragons have a relatively small population, so while they make impressive agents in the mortal world, after their death there's only one soul being harvested. Dragons also have racial deities, which although they don't perfectly sync with the alignments of many dragons, many lawful evil dragons will probably seek out the virtue in Dahak's worship before worshiping a non-dragon deity. All of that said, there are going to pragmatic (and usually lawful evil) dragons who seek power through Asmodeus's worship. It only makes sense for them to attempt to exploit the same sources of power other mortals would.
Dark Tapestry The dark tapestry? Faceless, formless, parasites of faith without the clout to even put down stakes in the realms of the gods? No, I don't think he pays them much mind. If they can be put to use, then by all means, even if that means touting their threat as something greater than it is to turn others toward his worship.
Also, I know I've been cagey about Barbatos's origins, but consider this: There are beings that fell from Heaven with Asmodeus who he doesn't consider worthy of archdevil status.
Treerazer: Treerazer is another demigod, and a demigod that fled the Abyss and has not managed to return. As planar politics go, Asmodeus probably has less interest in Treerazer than most demigods--who are already little more than pretenders to the titles of deities.
When you're thinking about Asmodeus and his schemes and allies, remember to think big, long term, and arrogant. If he can conceive of a reason to look down on a being, he probably will--and that means most beings. So if respect isn't being handed out based on status and title alone, it has to be gained by power and ingenuity, particularly when that could significantly aid or oppose him and the cadre of organized demigods who obey his word as law.
FormerFiend, you've tricked me into answering your question twice.
Kudos. :)
Similarly, in Chronicles of the Righteous the Empyreal Lord of execution grants a couple of abilities that are Evil by default. How do we reconcile this?
What about the various alien deities like Mhar(If It ever wakes up) and the Cthulhu mythos?
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In the back cover of BotD volume 1, the Infernal Duke Bifrons has that pesky Creation domain. for my strictly-Pathfinder game, would a suitable replacement domain be Artifice or would you recommend something else?
Nope! Artifice all the way. Good eye.
Also, the Infernal Duke Quindiovatos has the Glory domain, which has some spells within it with the [good] descriptor. How would you handle this in a game?
Pretty much like any other spell with the good or evil descriptor. If you're a cleric, you CAN cast it, but there are ramifications. This being on the deity's domain spell list doesn't change that. Typically a deity is choosing his domains first for appropriateness to his/her portfolio, second for its domain abilities, then third for the spells. If restrictions on alignment make a particular class/deity/domain combo more challenging to play... well honestly, I think that makes for a WAY cooler character.
Similarly, in Chronicles of the Righteous the Empyreal Lord of execution grants a couple of abilities that are Evil by default. How do we reconcile this?
Same story. You do not get a special exception just because these spells are on the domain list. It makes playing those characters more difficult, but if you're playing a good character who worships the good-aligned deity of execution or an evil character who worships the evil-aligned deity of glory, you've got a stricter path to walk than playing a good character who worships the god of healing or the evil character who worships the god of destruction. These characters have more opportunities to deviate from the atypical path their deity sets before them. Temptations and the opportunity to stray from that path are, in cases like these, occasionally represented even in their class features. They're going to have to really work to avoid succumbing to acts and options that might be contrary to their deity's will--but which are not outside their deity's ability to provide.
And again, personally, I think that's pretty cool!
But if you want to worship a deity that's all sunshine and justice and healing all day long, Iomedae's doors are always open. ;)
But if you want to worship a deity that's all sunshine and justice and healing all day long, Iomedae's doors are always open. ;)
Wouldn't Sunshine & Justice & Healing be more Saraenrae's purview?
Can you tell me anything about Rasvocal, The Vulture King? He's listed in the Infernal Dukes section on page 52 but he doesn't have an entry among the infernal dukes listed in the back.
Not yet... Not yet. ;)
For now, he is yours to do with as you please.
Have at 'em.
I've been seriously consumed for some odd reason with Ruithvein the Blood Emperor, for probably a week now.
Why was he the third vampire? More importantly, where are the first and second? Was he turned by the first or second? How did he end up in Hell? What does he do these days? What does he look like? Is he around the power level of Luvick Siervage? Beyond?
I know a lot of these questions probably don't have answers that can be given, but what sort of things can we know about this Blood Emperor?
Cool! Glad you're digging him!
As for the gold and silver winners of the vampire race, well, we know the demon lord Zura is near the top of the ranks. We also know that Urgathoa had some very early dealings with undeath. And then there's also the likelihood of mysterious characters we still know nothing about.
As for how he ended up in Hell, what he's up to, what he looks like, we haven't gone down that road yet. What's particularly interesting is that not every creature in the outer planes needs to be dead or has to have died and been judged. Perhaps Ruithvein as he is now is the shade of his living/undead self, or perhaps he never died and has taken up residence in Hell. Lots of possibilities there.
He is certainly older and more powerful than Siervage.
Ultimately, this is a cool character that we'd love to play with in the future, so be patient! There will be more on him down the line. :)
How much trouble does Nyarlathotep give Asmodeus? What is the relation between the two?