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People keep saying +2 to saves like the trait gives +2. It doesn't. It turns a +1 into a +2. The trait is granting +1 to all saves. Still strong, but significantly less than is being implied.
Additionally, Sacred Tattoo is a good trade for many players regardless of the presence of Fate's Favored, so its not like a mediocre alternate racial trait is being empowered overwhelmingly by a trait.
Those calling for errata need to keep in mind that house rules can stop abuse on a small scale, but errata make it official for everyone. In my opinion, only broken (in the literal sense, not the OP sense) mechanics or misprintings should be reflected in the errata (with the exception, maybe, of PFS specific changes).
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I really like tattooed characters, so this combo has shown up on a couple of mine. It's never felt especially over powered, but it usually ends up on a fighty type. And anyone who tells you a fighter or rogue couldn't do with a +2 to will is a dirty liar.
It's a solid boost that doesn't massively increase a characters damage nor make there defenses invulnerable, so I reckon it should stay. But I'm still bitter about Heirloom Weapon.
This trait is pure gold, not just for Warpriests or half-orcs, but even for clerics and Inquisitors of any race that use divine favor/power alot.
It get's eye-rolls and groans from multiple people when this shows up at our table... again... and again.Sounds like a local problem rather than a system problem.
Well, as I've said, I haven't banned it at my table.
It always shows up on martial characters, which is why I'm okay with it.
The casters are OP too, and I also don't ban them.
Fate's Favored might make powerful builds more powerful, but it also makes poor-to-mediocre builds more powerful as well. I'm considering using it for a melee witch build, using the Strength patron. If it gets nerfed or banned, that build concept pretty much goes out the window.
Fate's Favored might make powerful builds more powerful, but it also makes poor-to-mediocre builds more powerful as well. I'm considering using it for a melee witch build, using the Strength patron. If it gets nerfed or banned, that build concept pretty much goes out the window.
Yup, with the right context, it's A-Ok.
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The trait gives +1 to all saves in one specific situation. Other traits give +1 to individual saves in all situations. If you're going to be a half orc then fate's favored is obviously better but there are plenty of circumstances where the other traits are better.
More to the point, does it really break the game if somebody is getting precisely one more number on the die that lets them make their save? Some people's senses are so finely tuned that they'll smell cheese if a fighter shows up with strength as his highest stat...
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Fate's Favored might make powerful builds more powerful, but it also makes poor-to-mediocre builds more powerful as well. I'm considering using it for a melee witch build, using the Strength patron. If it gets nerfed or banned, that build concept pretty much goes out the window.
Which is why I like only having the bonus apply to temporary luck bonuses such as spell effects, but not permanent ones such as Sacred Tattoo, a Jingasa, or any other item.
The trait gives +1 to all saves in one specific situation. Other traits give +1 to individual saves in all situations. If you're going to be a half orc then fate's favored is obviously better but there are plenty of circumstances where the other traits are better.
More to the point, does it really break the game if somebody is getting precisely one more number on the die that lets them make their save? Some people's senses are so finely tuned that they'll smell cheese if a fighter shows up with strength as his highest stat...
I don't know people like that.
This is Gouda because anyone playing a half-orc can safely be asked this:
"Other than the +2 to all your saves, what can you tell me about your character?"
Criticizing a fighter for a STR of 18 is like criticizing a mother for baby-proofing her house.
You can do it, but you are REALLY gonna look like a jerk.
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The trait gives +1 to all saves in one specific situation. Other traits give +1 to individual saves in all situations. If you're going to be a half orc then fate's favored is obviously better but there are plenty of circumstances where the other traits are better.
More to the point, does it really break the game if somebody is getting precisely one more number on the die that lets them make their save? Some people's senses are so finely tuned that they'll smell cheese if a fighter shows up with strength as his highest stat...
It's not a question of the +1 bonus, it's a question of the resource cost. A half-orc can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of a trait. A human can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of three feats.
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Hmm, let me see who I have it on.
Sarma, Human Inquisitor. (Fate's Favored)
Grisaia, Half-Orc Cleric. (Sacred Tattoo/Fate's Favored)
Yroh Snowbown, Half-Orc Oracle (Sacred Tattoo)
Holger Coulson, Half-Orc Fighter (Sacred Tattoo)
I remember I specifically picked it for Grisaia because I intend to use Divine Favor to increase her combat ability a lot. (Especially when she gets Quicken Spell.) Yroh doesn't have the feats to spare to pick up Fate's Favored and is using unerrated Divine Protection for LOLSAVES anyway. Holger could spare a feat for Fate's Favored, but I probably won't bother. And obviously Sarma just has it for Divine Favor shenanigans and can't take the racial trait anyway.
It's not a question of the +1 bonus, it's a question of the resource cost. A half-orc can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of a trait. A human can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of three feats.The trait gives +1 to all saves in one specific situation. Other traits give +1 to individual saves in all situations. If you're going to be a half orc then fate's favored is obviously better but there are plenty of circumstances where the other traits are better.
More to the point, does it really break the game if somebody is getting precisely one more number on the die that lets them make their save? Some people's senses are so finely tuned that they'll smell cheese if a fighter shows up with strength as his highest stat...
+2 you mean? For the human? Iron Will and the others give +2.
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It's not a question of the +1 bonus, it's a question of the resource cost. A half-orc can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of a trait. A human can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of three feats.
I think the real problem is that Orc Ferocity is utter garbage compared to Sacred Tattoo.
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It's not a question of the +1 bonus, it's a question of the resource cost. A half-orc can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of a trait. A human can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of three feats.I think the real problem is that Orc Ferocity is utter garbage compared to Sacred Tattoo.
No argument there. Every option to replace it is better than the base ability. 90' Darkvision, a bite attack, +1 to saves, even a +2 to sunder or a +2 to perception is better than it.
Sacred Tattoo is the best option by far, but Ferocity is trash.
I'm not saying it should get errata.
I'm saying it positively will.
I'm not saying it should get errata.
I'm saying it positively will.
LOL yep, until then...
*passes the cheese platter around*
As long as it's Sacred Tattoo that gets the nerd bat.
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The permanent +2 to all saves is in effect all the time. That is potentially... well, billions of uses per day.
Meh..... a dwarf with one feat can get +4 to all saves via Steel Soul
As long as it's Sacred Tattoo that gets the nerd bat.
It won't be. Sacred Tattoo is fine.
Fate's Favored is a scaling bonus on a trait, which warps balance.
I can see them changing it to a +1 bonus to all d20 rolls for one round or something.
As long as it's Sacred Tattoo that gets the nerd bat.
I need a nerd bat.
I have a lot of nerds that need a good smashing.
It's not all saves. It's all saves vs spells and SLAs. It's a big difference.Meh..... a dwarf with one feat can get +4 to all saves via Steel Soul
The permanent +2 to all saves is in effect all the time. That is potentially... well, billions of uses per day.
I.e.: Dwarves get f#*+ed by Kineticists.
Steel Soul really only gives +2 to saves. It doesn't stack with Hardy, which the Dwarf already had.
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Dwarves can get a +5 against all spells and SLA. +2 normally, +1 trait bonus from a trait, and the +2 from a feat. So they have a trait that is about as strong as the orc one.
So most Half-orcs take this combo, but most players aren't half-orcs with this, so it's not like it's a must have.
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Dwarves can get a +5 against all spells and SLA. +2 normally, +1 trait bonus from a trait, and the +2 from a feat. So they have a trait that is about as strong as the orc one.
So most Half-orcs take this combo, but most players aren't half-orcs with this, so it's not like it's a must have.
Dwarf Paladin 2/Spellscar Oracle 11 with Fate's Favored, Glory of Old, Steel Soul, and carrying a Lucky Horseshoe.
Base Stat + CHA + 2 Luck + 9 (vs Spells and SLA)
Run away! Our spells do nothing!
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Dwarves can get a +5 against all spells and SLA. +2 normally, +1 trait bonus from a trait, and the +2 from a feat. So they have a trait that is about as strong as the orc one.
So most Half-orcs take this combo, but most players aren't half-orcs with this, so it's not like it's a must have.
Dwarf Paladin 2/Spellscar Oracle 11 with Fate's Favored, Glory of Old, Steel Soul, and carrying a Lucky Horseshoe.
Base Stat + CHA + 2 Luck + 9 (vs Spells and SLA)
Run away! Our spells do nothing!
Playing an oradin with a -2 CHA penalty? ouch.
I'm not saying it should get errata.
I'm saying it positively will.
Not likely. It was designed to boost casters.
It is only a "problem" when combined with an alternate racial trait of a single race.
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It's not a question of the +1 bonus, it's a question of the resource cost. A half-orc can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of a trait. A human can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of three feats.
A human gets a bonus feat. If they use that feat on extra traits and pick up deft dodger (combat), indomitable faith (religion), and forlorn (social) they can get +1 to all saves as well.
This idea that all half orcs have it, therefore it needs to go is really blinkered. You could say the same thing for a lot of feats. Other than Power Attack, what can you tell me about your barbarian? Other than Shocking Grasp, what's in your magus's spellbook?
A design goal of always nerfing the best available option is self-defeating.
It's not a question of the +1 bonus, it's a question of the resource cost. A half-orc can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of a trait. A human can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of three feats.A human gets a bonus feat. If they use that feat on extra traits and pick up deft dodger (combat), indomitable faith (religion), and forlorn (social) they can get +1 to all saves as well.
This idea that all half orcs have it, therefore it needs to go is really blinkered. You could say the same thing for a lot of feats. Other than Power Attack, what can you tell me about your barbarian? Other than Shocking Grasp, what's in your magus's spellbook?
A design goal of always nerfing the best available option is self-defeating.
Extra Traits gives two, not three. You have limited choices, so using three picks to get what half orcs can do with one?
It isnt balanced, hence this discussion
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It's not a question of the +1 bonus, it's a question of the resource cost. A half-orc can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of a trait. A human can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of three feats.A human gets a bonus feat. If they use that feat on extra traits and pick up deft dodger (combat), indomitable faith (religion), and forlorn (social) they can get +1 to all saves as well.
This idea that all half orcs have it, therefore it needs to go is really blinkered. You could say the same thing for a lot of feats. Other than Power Attack, what can you tell me about your barbarian? Other than Shocking Grasp, what's in your magus's spellbook?
A design goal of always nerfing the best available option is self-defeating.
Extra Traits gives two, not three. You have limited choices, so using three picks to get what half orcs can do with one?
It isnt balanced, hence this discussion
He was showing that if the human spends 1 trait, like the half-orc is spending. and then using the human bonus you can get the same extra bonus the half-orc is getting.
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It's not a question of the +1 bonus, it's a question of the resource cost. A half-orc can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of a trait. A human can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of three feats.A human gets a bonus feat. If they use that feat on extra traits and pick up deft dodger (combat), indomitable faith (religion), and forlorn (social) they can get +1 to all saves as well.
This idea that all half orcs have it, therefore it needs to go is really blinkered. You could say the same thing for a lot of feats. Other than Power Attack, what can you tell me about your barbarian? Other than Shocking Grasp, what's in your magus's spellbook?
A design goal of always nerfing the best available option is self-defeating.
Extra Traits gives two, not three. You have limited choices, so using three picks to get what half orcs can do with one?
It isnt balanced, hence this discussion
So Half-Orcs can do in 1 trait and an alternate race trait what Humans can do in 2 traits and half a feat?
Wow, that's a lot less resource intensive than the three feats number that keeps getting quoted.
It's not a question of the +1 bonus, it's a question of the resource cost. A half-orc can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of a trait. A human can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of three feats.A human gets a bonus feat. If they use that feat on extra traits and pick up deft dodger (combat), indomitable faith (religion), and forlorn (social) they can get +1 to all saves as well.
This idea that all half orcs have it, therefore it needs to go is really blinkered. You could say the same thing for a lot of feats. Other than Power Attack, what can you tell me about your barbarian? Other than Shocking Grasp, what's in your magus's spellbook?
A design goal of always nerfing the best available option is self-defeating.
Extra Traits gives two, not three. You have limited choices, so using three picks to get what half orcs can do with one?
It isnt balanced, hence this discussion
So Half-Orcs can do in 1 trait and an alternate race trait what Humans can do in 2 traits and half a feat?
Wow, that's a lot less resource intensive than the three feats number that keeps getting quoted.
No.
What a half orc can do with a single trait and substitution of a crappy racial trait, a human would have to expend three feats to reproduce.
So, +2 to all saves, how many feats does it cost?
1/2 Orc=0
Human=3
Also, humans can get this +2 to all saves only by level 3, other races have to wait until level 5.
1/2 orcs? Level 1.
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No.
What a half orc can do with a single trait and substitution of a crappy racial trait, a human would have to expend three feats to reproduce.
So, +2 to all saves, how many feats does it cost?
1/2 Orc=0
Human=3
I disagree. Calling trading Orc Ferocity for Sacred Tattoo a 'cost' is pretty unconvincing. You might as well just consider it the default, and go from there.
Thus it is halforcs with a +1 bonus to saves spending a trait to get another +1 to saves. And the human has one feat over the halforc, so he gets to spend 1 trait and a feat (that the halforc doesn't have) to get +1 to all saves.
No.
What a half orc can do with a single trait and substitution of a crappy racial trait, a human would have to expend three feats to reproduce.
So, +2 to all saves, how many feats does it cost?
1/2 Orc=0
Human=3I disagree. Calling trading Orc Ferocity for Sacred Tattoo a 'cost' is pretty unconvincing. You might as well just consider it the default, and go from there.
Thus it is halforcs with a +1 bonus to saves spending a trait to get another +1 to saves. And the human has one feat over the halforc, so he gets to spend 1 trait and a feat (that the halforc doesn't have) to get +1 to all saves.
However you want to look at it, humans can't reproduce the saving throw bonus until level 3, and other races till level 5.
Unless I'm doing feats wrong...
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No.
What a half orc can do with a single trait and substitution of a crappy racial trait, a human would have to expend three feats to reproduce.
So, +2 to all saves, how many feats does it cost?
1/2 Orc=0
Human=3I disagree. Calling trading Orc Ferocity for Sacred Tattoo a 'cost' is pretty unconvincing. You might as well just consider it the default, and go from there.
Thus it is halforcs with a +1 bonus to saves spending a trait to get another +1 to saves. And the human has one feat over the halforc, so he gets to spend 1 trait and a feat (that the halforc doesn't have) to get +1 to all saves.
This, the human is using a single racial trait (bonus feat) and a trait to get the same worth of trait as the half-orc. The half-orc uses a racial trait and a trait to get an extra +1 to all saves. The fighter uses a racial trait and a trait to get an extra +1 to all saves.
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No.
What a half orc can do with a single trait and substitution of a crappy racial trait, a human would have to expend three feats to reproduce.
So, +2 to all saves, how many feats does it cost?
1/2 Orc=0
Human=3I disagree. Calling trading Orc Ferocity for Sacred Tattoo a 'cost' is pretty unconvincing. You might as well just consider it the default, and go from there.
Thus it is halforcs with a +1 bonus to saves spending a trait to get another +1 to saves. And the human has one feat over the halforc, so he gets to spend 1 trait and a feat (that the halforc doesn't have) to get +1 to all saves.
However you want to look at it, humans can't reproduce the saving throw bonus until level 3, and other races till level 5.
Unless I'm doing feats wrong...
And dwarfs get +3 to all saves from magic and poison for a racial trait and a trait. And the half-elf gets +2 to will and +2 to most will saving throws and that's not using any traits!
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Humans are the "worst" race giving only 1 skill rank per level(which half-orcs can also do), their power is the strength of a lv1 feat, which is sometimes really really strong so they are the best. Half-orcs with an extra +1 to saves can never have as many feats as a same classed human. The bonus feat makes humans good at ALL classes and ALL things. The other races usually need some sort of synergy or feat light build to be good.
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Fate's Favored is a scaling bonus on a trait, which warps balance.
Fate's favored is not a scaling bonus. It stays the same from level 1 to level 20.
When I look at some of the other things that get nerfed, they are things that truly warp the game. A +1 to all saves constantly? It's not game breaking.
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It's not a question of the +1 bonus, it's a question of the resource cost. A half-orc can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of a trait. A human can get a +1 bonus to all reflex, fortitude, and will saves from all sources for the cost of three feats.A human gets a bonus feat. If they use that feat on extra traits and pick up deft dodger (combat), indomitable faith (religion), and forlorn (social) they can get +1 to all saves as well.
This idea that all half orcs have it, therefore it needs to go is really blinkered. You could say the same thing for a lot of feats. Other than Power Attack, what can you tell me about your barbarian? Other than Shocking Grasp, what's in your magus's spellbook?
A design goal of always nerfing the best available option is self-defeating.
Extra Traits gives two, not three. You have limited choices, so using three picks to get what half orcs can do with one?
It isnt balanced, hence this discussion
So Half-Orcs can do in 1 trait and an alternate race trait what Humans can do in 2 traits and half a feat?
Wow, that's a lot less resource intensive than the three feats number that keeps getting quoted.
No.
What a half orc can do with a single trait and substitution of a crappy racial trait, a human would have to expend three feats to reproduce.
So, +2 to all saves, how many feats does it cost?
1/2 Orc=0
Human=3
How many weapons is a human inherently familiar with? 0
How many is an Elf familiar with? 6. Also they get to treat any exotic Elven weapons as a Martial Weapon for the terms of familiarity.
How many feats does a human need to do the same thing? 3 (Martial Weapon proficiency + 2 EWP for the Elven weapons). 4 if you also need Simple Weapon Proficiency.
Elves get for free with 0 traits what Humans get for 3 / 4 feats.
Do you see why you can't hold a race's Race Trait against them when talking about these things? They don't add up properly.
So, back to my method. Half-Orcs can do in 1 Trait what Humans can do in 2 Traits and half a Feat.
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BTW, the fact that most humans don't put their bonus feat into extra traits to pick up a +1/+1 to saves might be an indicator of just how "broken" Fate's Favored is.
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Not at all. If anything it points to how much more people would rather spend their feats on other things than on +1 to 2 saves.
Dex Fighter: "Hmm...+1 to Fort and Will...or Dex to hit?"
Spell Caster: "Hmm...+1 to Fort and Reflex...or +1 to my favorite spell's DC?"
Barbarian: "Hmm...+1 to Reflex and Will...or Power Attack?"
Paladin: "Hahahahaha I get Charisma to saves! And I took the Fey Foundling trait to make myself even more sustained! Can I just give this level 3 feat to someone else, 'cause I don't need it."