Despite my best efforts searching, I have come up with very little, and that little leads to broken links. So I turn to the community for help.
First, some personal background: Former 3.5 player, never played Pathfinder, started looking into it after 4th Edition turned me off so hard. Presumably will carry on planning for Pathfinder unless Next wows me. I have no game or dungeon master from whom to seek approval, I just like having a variety of concepts in the chamber, should I have the opportunity to pull the trigger.
Second, some character background: Elf Wizard, called 'the Apostate'. Expelled from a prestigious academy of magic with close ties to the priesthood of [insert Elvish god of nature/natural order] for disrupting a presentation of a representative of the temple by engaging the priest in a debate. During the course of this debate, the character repudiated the conventional concept of 'the natural order', asserting that a larger or more fundamental order applied and that consequently the lives of monsters such as aberrations, oozes, outsiders, and others have equivalent value to that of humanoids and animals approved by the priesthood specifically and Elvish culture generally. Hence the nickname.
Third, the problems I am having: the alpha problem is that I would like the character's ultimate ambition to be the creation of a new creature. I am having trouble finding a pre-existing set of feats, or spells, or magical apparatus amongst the literature for the purposes of making this a functional mechanic in the game. Epic spells exist that I have found for creating whole creatures that are old, which are then permanent rather than summoned; I had rather hoped that 'wait for epic' wouldn't be the answer, but it wouldn't shock me.
The beta problem is what sort of wizard to make the character. A solution to the alpha problem would simplify things by allowing me to specialize in whatever school the core spells are or feats require, but lacking such guidance I am forced to consider it in light of what sort of research avenues would be most appropriate. Based on the Creation subschool falling under Conjuration, a conjurer would seem appropriate. Secondarily, should using other creatures as base stock be a more prudent route, Transmutation could apply. Lastly, and my first choice by virtue of being different and provocative, is Necromancy, as the creation of new life would seem to be heavily influenced by the study of the nature of life and death.
Necromancy was my first choice, simply because it reinforces the provocative nature of the character, and most people who make necromancers go deep down the Undead route. I thought it made the most sense for creating an Aberration creature as the end result.
Conjuration is my last choice of the three, namely because I have other conjurer concepts that both endorse and flout the expected primary focus (summoning). It would probably, by virtue of Creation, be the best option for creating a wholly new Animal or Humanoid, thematically.
This leaves Transmutation smack in the middle; I have no other transmuter concepts to speak of, and it seems the best suited to making some kind of Magical Beast (as this seems to be the most common type of creature explained away via the 'mad wizard' origin), although this feels slightly derivative as I would be recombining old monsters into new monsters in the most expedient solution, and half breeds abound anyway. This isn't as provocative a concept; I had envisioned the character as carrying out the all-life-is-similarly-valuable shtick to just shy of absurdity. It pleases me to be able to construct reasonable challenges within the context of the norms of D&D, and this feels like a bit of a cop-out.
Thoughts?
Quote: I am having trouble finding a pre-existing set of feats, or spells, or magical apparatus amongst the literature for the purposes of making this a functional mechanic in the game. Epic spells exist that I have found for creating whole creatures that are old, which are then permanent rather than summoned; I had rather hoped that 'wait for epic' wouldn't be the answer, but it wouldn't shock me. There are no specific rules I'm aware of for creating entirely new forms of life. I suspect this has more to do with the fact that this isn't something that most adventurers would be doing. As I GM, I certainly wouldn't require an epic wizard to perform such a task; probably more around 8th level for a simple creation or a 12th level for a more advanced one.
I think the three schools you've brought out are all excellent choices towards the stated concept. Conjuration to create entirely new aspects, Transmutation to change existing aspects, and Necromancy as the primal study of life and death that binds them. Lacking any supportive rules, I'd be inclined to argue that the process to create a new creature would encompass all three of these schools.
So yeah, I think you're on the right track.
Well I do not know if this is what you are after but there are tomes that let you make golems. here is the link to the wiki
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Golem_Manual
The artificer class in the ebron campaign setting can make a homunculus
The alienist in complete arcane lets you summon strange and alien creatures. Even though stats of summon creatures are set There is no reason you could not dictate their appearance to you liking.
The effigy master also in complete arcane lets you make your own mechanical beasts based on creatures from the monster manual. Again there is no real reason why you could not dictate what your construction look like.
The entire Libritis Mortis book has all sorts of ways to both make and improve undead. Particularly the Stitched flesh familiar gives you an undead buddy. You could in theory combine this feat with Improved familiar and the corpse crafter feats(also in libritis mortis) and make your own little abomination.
Nothing else comes to mind at the moment. Hope that helps
O also the craft golem feat that is mentioned with the golem creation tomes.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Craft_Construct
What do you think about using the summoner class, flavoring him as a Wizard who is in the process of creating a creature?
I have no objection to making him a summoner per se, it just runs a bit roughshod over a different concept I had wherein either as a summoner or a conjurer (or possibly a sorcerer) the character was hugely enamored of exotic (read: extra-planar) cultures, and would be intent on pursuing a position that amounts to planar diplomat.
Ashoten: those are the same resources I came across. My plan, should I need to execute one, is to use one or more of those sources to loosely structure the process of making a new creature.
I suppose I should be more specific; the creation of a new independent creature that breeds true. The operative moral idea is that all life has inherent value, created or otherwise, and so the apex of achievement would be contributing original life. Frankly, a detailed mechanic is not especially necessary, as it could very much be a terminal event. I have no real desire to control this new creature, or use it for a purpose; the whole idea relies on the beast being self-sustaining.
The fascination of the character is centered on a system level of analysis, so rather than balancing the merits of scales vs. feathers, the question is much more how the creature interacts with its environment, what that means for the creature group and environment, etc, extended unto the largest scale possible (epochs across multiple planes).
The logic behind moral approval of Aberrations is extending the concept of the natural order beyond the expected boundary of 'native to the Material Plane'. After all, a migrating apex predator can catastrophically disrupt local ecosystems. Geological events obliterate them entirely. Why should this continuum of acceptable consequence terminate at the local plane and planet? If the system is truly fundamental, it should continue beyond, in much the same fashion magic doesn't stop working even when on a distant plane. Is this covered by in-game philosophy? Nope! That calls for wizardly research of the question.
Dasrak: I am heartened by your estimation of the level requirements. I agree with you on the including all three schools assessment; it was merely a matter of primacy. I should think that none of those schools should be opposition schools, whichever one I choose. Evocation is easily forsaken, as I hate blasting anyway, but it would sting the soul to give up Illusion or Divination, and Enchantment was basically a requirement for all creation processes involving magic.
What about villains? There are dozens of monsters that have come from mad wizards, sorcerers, or cults. Can anyone think of any adventures that contain bad guys who seek to manufacture / use manufactured monsters? This is a much harder criterion to search for than through splatbooks.
Even if it requires mechanical improvisation between me and the DM, or is flat unworkable in the context of the adventure, I think it provides fecund roleplaying opportunities. A fascination with all different orders of life, a chance to pull the reigns on the party to prevent cases of total extermination of creatures, pay close attention to monsters made by others, and the ability to treat monster-maker-villains as an additional reward and valuable source of information...I think my glass would still be mostly full.
Drychnath wrote: I suppose I should be more specific; the creation of a new independent creature that breeds true. AFAIK, this was only possible at Epic levels in 3.5. The PF rules are compatible with 3.5, so you could introduce them to create your concept.
OTOH, several modules over the years involve evil wizards that create true-breeding monsters. I don't believe the mechanism has ever been discussed, but I could be wrong.
Drychnath wrote: I have no real desire to control this new creature, or use it for a purpose; the whole idea relies on the beast being self-sustaining. Ok well then you are going to need the use of the Awaken spells. I know you can find them in the spell compendium. The awaken spell do essentially that. It bestows intelligence and independence on a creation like a construct or undead.
There is also the clone spell. This spell is intended as a means of a wizard to escape death via a batch of clones on standby. On death of the caster there soul auto travels to a clone. I imagine that you could modfy the spell to allow you to grow your own creature in vat and then use an awaken spell to give it life.
Aha! I knew Necromancy would hold the key. Clone is an excellent suggestion for a base. A touch of instantaneous Transmutation here, a dash of Conjuration there... viola, new Aberration!
Meanwhile, hunting down the Epic handbook for 3.5 - did it get reprinted for 3.5? Makes no nevermind if it is 3.0, I suppose. Mostly for flavor instead of balance.
Of course, what I read about becoming a lich recommended the dungeon master impose a long, expensive research process composed of many stages and complex, challenging adventures. That sounds like something that could be worked in during a character's progression to me, presuming a similar level of complexity.
If you're in Faerun or Planescape and using 3.X material (Which it sounds like you are given that you're using the epic level handbook), there's always the Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species which you can use with the Sarrukh's manipulate form ability to make some major alterations to a snake.
Quote: I should think that none of those schools should be opposition schools, whichever one I choose. Evocation is easily forsaken, as I hate blasting anyway, but it would sting the soul to give up Illusion or Divination, and Enchantment was basically a requirement for all creation processes involving magic. Evocation - I think it gets a bad rap as the "blaster school" when it actually is broader than this. The bigger problem is that conjuration overshadows it in too many ways.
Divination - agreed; for someone with lofty goals, this would be a nonsensical school to oppose.
Illusion - I can understand the apprehension to oppose this. Agreed it's ntot a great choice.
Enchantment - I'm not seeing your logic; if you don't want to control the creature, I don't see the need for enchantment.
Abjuration - this one you didn't mention. I'm personally loath to give up. At a certain level I've internalized it as the "school to rule all schools" due to having the dispel magic chain.
I know it is not a wizard, but a player in one of my games is a Alchemist (Vivisecionist) and has had alot of fun transforming things into starage critters, just a thought
I'm not sure where the rules are Exactly but the drow on golarion practice an.art.called fleshwarping that allows them to alter and create new species from existing creatures.
I think it might be.in inner sea magic
Intelligent items could be considered "creatures", especially if they automotive mobility. Simulacra probably won't fit the bill, since by their nature they're copies which cannot learn to be anything else. But the already mentioned Golems could work.
Dasrak wrote:
Enchantment - I'm not seeing your logic; if you don't want to control the creature, I don't see the need for enchantment.
Abjuration - this one you didn't mention. I'm personally loath to give up. At a certain level I've internalized it as the "school to rule all schools" due to having the dispel magic chain.
Regarding Enchantment, my logic was two-fold and possibly outdated. In 3.0, an Enchantment spell was necessary for virtually every magic item creation process that could be attempted; choosing it as an opposition school therefore eliminated a character from solo magic item creation, save for scrolls and the like. A new monster would be more involved, so I inferred that it would be more, rather than less, necessary. Second, though I don't intend to control the monster once made, it occurred to me that during the research and experimentation process numerous spells would be useful. I expect (and want) a menagerie at some point during the research process.
You are quite right on Abjuration. Never crossed my mind to drop it.
I take your point on Evocation, but blasting is still the centerpiece, so the question becomes, "Is there anything from Evocation apart from blasting that another school wouldn't serve me better in?" And the answer, near as I can tell, is no.
Edit: so in Pathfinder, the only penalty to an opposition school is it takes two slots? But I could still use magic items requiring activation and the like? That changes things a bit. I could afford the loss of Enchantment, at that stage, since I could still do all the casting myself.
Transmogrification as a specialization class, and in the end (when making this new creature) it is YOU becoming that creature?
Allow me to explain.
Obviously you will need to create this new species before you ever play, knowing what your goal is from the outset.
Bestiary I,II, or III will help you with this creation. This still means that you will be making something that falls into one of the existing clasifications of creatures, ie. Abberations, magical beasts, etc...
If you are wanting to make an entire new Classification of creature, I dont know where to point you.
But by having this creature made, it will need to fall under one of your Beast Shape, Elemental Body, Plant Shape, Form of the Dragon, or Giant Form spells.
This allows you to begin to change into this creature using your spells only. Sure, it is not creating a creature that will live and survive on its own, but, by you being able to change into it, you know it must exist somewhere, or it might be a mad/insane insight into the future of what you will eventually do, which is create this creature by accident or by genius.
If you read up on the Bullette - page 4 of the Dungeon Denizens revisited book - you know that it was created by a magical experiment gone very wrong by a wizard just like you describe in your OP.
The description reads something like this: It is commonly believed that the bullette was created by crossing an armidillo and a snapping turtle, infusing the union with demon ichor. While the specifics have been lost over time, some reseachers have attempted to duplicate the experiment. Their notes speicifically state that large specimins of the creatures were needed, along with the spells Animal Growth, bears endurance, bulls strength, darkvision, jump, permanancy, polymorph, and either barkskin or stone skin. It is said the strength of the demon ichor determines the success rate of the experiment.
You would probably need GM approval for this creation no matter what path you choose. Just wanted to give you an alternate idea, and an example of how a Huge Magical Beast was created.
I know you mention magical beasts in your post and how you might want to stay away from this concept, but if you are talking old creatures from beyond the void (abberations) then this is still an awesome way to go.
hope this helps.
CC
I think the best way to go about this would be to use the Summoner base class instead of Wizard...i know that goes against r core idea, but let me defend myself -
1) youre still an arcane caster, so it doesnt conflict w/ being at the academy
2) your eidolon is an extraplanar create that you basically create as you pull it onto your plane; you have control over its form. this can be easily "re-fluffed" to fit you idea of creating new creatures
since PF is compatible w/ 3.5 material, id look at the Alienist prestige class from Complete Arcane. the ideas behind it i think are similar to what ur going for. a homebrew archetype for summoner would do it quite nicely. OR u "re-fluff" the Augment Summoning feat to make cosmetic differences to what u summon.
once u get a little higher level, then u can work w/ ur GM about a "favorite summon" that is effectively a monster you create w/ the GM.
...food for thought :)
Polymorph spells plus the Advanced Race Guide (available to browse in the PRD).
Research custom races, eventual goal of Polymorph Any Object to create permanent versions.
Work with GM to come up with appropriate time/costs to design races.
Actually, you can do this. You could conjure up a Voidworm as your familiar. So a level 7 wizard could create a new creature. I think Quasits have a similar origin, though they need a part of your soul to be summoned.
Also, undead are as much a part of the natural order as the plane of negative energy.
Indeed, and that's a reasonable position to take, but I will not pursue it for two reasons: one, unlife is still different from life, over-arching order or not; two, and more importantly, lots of players like making Undead.
Which is not to say a character dedicated to the long term creation of a particular Undead wouldn't be worthwhile. That sounds like a good mash-up of a regular necromancer and my Master of Ceremonies concept... consider that idea in the chamber.
So there's been considerable support for Constructs on the thread. Apart from the direct Pinocchio approach, I was having visions of a method to steal Constructs from other sources, and then giving them the fleshification and Awaken treatment.
For a Gnome interpretation of the character, perhaps a Construct that can construct a duplicate of itself. I wonder if something like that on the Plane Of Law already exists.
I am going to be tickled if my prospective future DM decides to have my little Aberration devastate the local ecosystem.
Are there any descriptions of a counter-ecosystem among the Undead books? Most of the Undead I can think of represent a terminus, and players, at least, seldom encounters anything that feeds upon them.
You want to create a new creature that doesn't exist yet, and that could reproduce to form a stable population?
That would indeed mean that shadowpocalypse and the voidworm are out, because they already exist. (The voidworm could still be some kind of experiment, though it will cost you a feat and your arcane bond. You could also still dabble in necromancy. Don't forget that your first attempt doesn't have to be succesful. You're allowed to have some fun before you finish your lifegoal)
There is the incarnate construct spell/template which turns constructs into humanoids/giants. (Savage Species for 3.0) Not sure if they can reproduce, but you could try.
You could also ask your GM, as he'll have some ideas about whether or not this is possible.
Very true. Related to the fun journey towards completion:
Since I envision the character's attitude as basically being that of a Druid towards natural creatures only extended to virtually all lifeforms, how far do you think I could reasonably carry that out without getting to be a substantial wrench in the party's progress?
Lacking a party or a DM to consult, I thought personal opinions of board members was a reasonable solicitation, especially since my next campaign is likely to be conducted online, and so from the same community of people...
Change from elf to half-orc
Change from create a creature to destroy all living things
Problem solved.
As far as creating new life - there may be something to chew on regarding that in the Mythic Adventures rulebook, when it comes out. Mythic is somewhat similar to 3.5 Epic, but is applicable to any level of character.
That is superb news, Thanis. Thank you for the heads up!
Drychnath, I think the simplest way of accomplishing your goal is using a combination of the Anthropomorphic Animal spell from Ultimate Magic and Permanency. You can turn any animal into something similar to a lycanthrope's hybrid form, and it's capable of speaking a single language and has an intelligence of three. You can use Permanency to make the effect permanent for 7500 gp, otherwise it only lasts for one hour per level. Pick a type of animal of your choice (preferably a small or medium one), find a male and female specimen of that species, cast both spells on each of them, and have them mate to create a whole new species.
If you want a method that lets you do something a bit more creative then an anthromorphic animal, I have another idea but I'm not entirely positive it is rules legal. It involves the following spells: stone wall, stone shape, stone to flesh, and polymorph any object. All of these can be cast by a wizard. Use as many castings of stone wall as necessary to get a block of stone you can carve a statue of your new species out of. Use stone shape to form this block of stone into an anatomically perfect statue of what your new species will look like. Use stone to flesh to transform your statue into a lifeless blob of flesh. All of this is completely rules legal, it's the next part that may not be. Use polymorph any object to transform your flesh statue into a living being. You need a duration bonus of +9 to make the transformation permenant. You'll get +2 bonus for it being the same size as your final creature and a +2 bonus for being made of a related material (hence why you use flesh to stone). There is a +5 bonus you can earn for the species being of the same general kingdom (turning an animal into an animal, plant into a plant, etc.) I'd personally interpret monster flesh as being in the same kingdom as a monster and give you that bonus, but its up to your GM's discretion. If they allow it, that would give you the +9 bonus you need to make the transformation permanent. Polymorph any object gives a target that becomes sentient a intelligence, wisdom, and charisma score of 5 each, turning it into a sentient being.
Hope these ideas help.
There's the old fallbacks...Wish and Limited Wish...approach the creation however you like, and then Wish them into existence...it's a bit heavy, perhaps, but Wish can essentially do whatever the DM allows it to...
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