Chill touch works nicely with spectral hand at mid-level -- you can just keep touching, round after round. At higher levels, saving spells is less important.
A fifth level or sixth level spell is usually much better than a quickened first/second level spell -- which is why I wait until 11th or 13th level to take it -- but the idea is to be able to throw two spells a round. The enemy can always roll a nat 1 on a save, after all, and doubling his chances to do that is very handy.
Reach Spell isn't just for touch spells like bestow curse or vampiric touch: it's other use is to let you turn lose-range spells into medium. Of course, if all your encounters are inside 30' rooms, this doesn't much matter, but I frequently found it useful to do stuff 50-150' away.
Yes, but don't touch attacks use Dex?
Melee touch attacks use Str, ranged touch attacks use Dex.
It's why I tend to dump strength and give my clerics Weapon Finesse.
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They do? Can't really remember.
Also, would it be a good idea to take a trait that makes perception a class skill for me?
And if i take magical lineage, what spell should i choose?
Frustratingly, they do not - if you're stuck with 7 Strength, make liberal use of spectral hand when you can (my experiences with my Witch, however, demonstrate it's usually not worth it), or if you've got one, employ your familiar (protect it well with spells like mage armor and false life, mind you) for your dirty work. If you do use spectral hand, brush up on its idiosyncrasies - it eats a few of your own hit points and uses your magic stat for its attack rolls, for starters.
"Would it be a good idea"? It's really up to you. Perception's the most frequently-used skill in the game (seriously, glomming Listen, Spot, and Search together almost results in something overpowered for a skill), but other classes can handle it much better. There's no obligation, per se, for you.
Given that you've been advised to take Persistent Spell (the same advice given me for my Illusionist), well...Necromancy's rich with choices. The trick is to pick one that never gets old (so cause fear and scare are out, and so's circle of death). Outside of that, you've got any number of spells that inflict ability damage, fatigue/exhaustion, fear, disease, and curses, all hinging on a saving throw - then there's finger of death, weakened since 3.5, but of course that's serious delayed-gratification you're looking at; but if you can expect to get that high, it's gratifying indeed, especially if you CAN expect to get into 8th-level spell territory but perhaps NOT past that (in which case the trait or something like it would be the only way you could cast it as a Persistent Spell).
Pick a spell that bestows the malady your necromancer favors the most - the only other thing I guess I'd suggest is NOT to apply it to a 3rd-level spell, since if you mean to turn a +2 level adjustment into +1, you're turning it into a 4th-level spell, and 4th-level spells are the arcane necromancer's gold mine, so perhaps you don't want more competition for slots of that level.
Enervation is indeed a wonderful spell. It's a powerful debuff which has no save! Negative levels are always nasty. In addition it stacks with itself, you can just "enervate" an enemy until you kill him/her. It is considered to be the anti-caster spell, although is awesome against any class.
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I remember looking at a class guide that says enervation is amazing. Is that true?
It is not. Enervation is MUCH MUCH better than that.
Seriously, a ranged touch spell with no save that gives stackable long-lasting penalties to EVERYTHING and eventually kills the victim? At which point it becoms a wight and you are free to take control of it using one of your many other spells or abilities? Without even an expensive material component?
The only thing that's amazing about I is how many wizards don't take it.
"For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies."
They keep the spells/spell slots but all caster level dependent effects are reduced by 1 for each negative level.
Enervation does 1d4 negative levels actually. Each gives a -1 to all rolls, deals 5 damage (and lowers their max HP by 5), and reduces the potency of their spells and anything else based on level, like supernatural and spell-like abilities. And it doesn't require a save.
And it requires a roll to hit, it theoretically could crit for double the negative levels (though I'm not sure if you can crit with non-damage effects).
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It's a -1 penalty per negative level on everything, and enervation does 1d4 of those. Hit someone with enervation, follow up with a quickened ray of enfeeblement or blindness/deafness if he has a bad Fort save, or a quickened marionette possession if he has a bad Will save -- and ouch, he's toast.
Or you hit with an empowered enervation and a Spell Perfection-quickened enervation. On average he'll be -6 to his saves just before your friend the cleric hits him with a quickened sound burst/hold person combo, or whatever targets the enemy's weak save. It doesn't solve the fight by itself, but it uses a mid-level spell to make the next blow vastly nastier.
And those negative levels stack. If your familiar is running around with a wand of enervation, too, they can really stack. Plus it's a ray, it's a ranged attack, it can crit -- a empowered enervation in theory could do 12 negative levels in one shot.
Obviously it's got problems -- miss chances, people with really high touch ACs, and the right defensive spells-- death ward, spell immunity,etc. but it's only one tool of many in the debuff necromancer's arsenal.
As a heads up you can't do that with Marionette Possession; it has to target a willing creature. And that's why it is a terrible waste of what would otherwise be an awesome spell.
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To address your concern directly - yes, there's a chance you'll roll crummy, but serious chance-taking has always been part of the game (in some ways, they've taken some out over time). Take the fact that the others don't seem to be answering your question directly as simply an overwhelming endorsement of the spell's worth (which I add +1 to).
Given all this, yes, there are much worse ideas than applying the Magical Lineage trait to enervation and applying Empower Spell to it - that way, you've got something really good to do with your 5th-level slots (kind of a weak level for necromancers), while freeing up both 4th- and 6th-level slots, two of the best levels for Necromancy spells, for others.
To address your concern directly - yes, there's a chance you'll roll crummy, but serious chance-taking has always been part of the game (in some ways, they've taken some out over time). Take the fact that the others don't seem to be answering your question directly as simply an overwhelming endorsement of the spell's worth (which I add +1 to).
Given all this, yes, there are much worse ideas than applying the Magical Lineage trait to enervation and applying Empower Spell to it - that way, you've got something really good to do with your 5th-level slots (kind of a weak level for necromancers), while freeing up both 4th- and 6th-level slots, two of the best levels for Necromancy spells, for others.
-_-
Lolwut? 5th level has Magic Jar. It's arguably the best spell in the whole Necromancy school. If you ask me, only astral projection can compete with Magic Jar.
I cannot overstate how powerful and abusable Magic Jar is. It's a top tier spell, one of the best on the entire wizard list.
There was a thread floating around a while ago. I dont remember all that was in it, but I seem to remember something like 100 hd worth of undead control. I am trying to dig it up right now. Will post it when I find it :(
Might be useful for this post, might not...
Mostly im just doting for future reference ^.^
Edit: Well I cant seem to find it, and im going to bed. Ill look for it again in the morning.
I'm not seeing why magic jar or astral projection is any good?
I mean, if your DM wants to keep the campaign on one plane for simplicity sake, astral projection does nothing.
Don't worry about astral projection for now, it's a long way off. Just read Magic jar and imagine the possibilities. Remembering that you keep your spellcasting when in another body.
You can possess anything that has a soul. A hill giant for example. Or even undead creatures that you raise yourself. So lets say a wight. Now, wights have the following ability:
Create Spawn (Su) Any humanoid creature that is slain by a wight becomes a wight itself in only 1d4 rounds. Spawn so created are less powerful than typical wights, and suffer a –2 penalty on all d20 rolls and checks, as well as –2 hp per HD. Spawn are under the command of the wight that created them and remain enslaved until its death, at which point they lose their spawn penalties and become full-fledged and free-willed wights. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.
Your slave wights have the same ability.
Let you imagination run wild. This is only the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.
Relevant to the topic but not last few posts- I think I've found a good option for low-ish level necromancers.
Take the Experimental Spellcaster feat and pickup the power word 'Undeath'. It basically acts like animate dead, but with NO MATERIAL COST. For the cherry on the top, Clerics and Oracles get it at level TWO, not three like animate dead. It may require some GM ruling to have Undead Master and similar feats apply to it, but otherwise an invaluable tool for any budding necromancer, even if it gets superseded at higher levels.
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ok i just thought of the best class for you to play. it is a paizo class from 3.5 called the death master. it gives you a pretty crazy powerful minnion, a clerics control undead, and a hybrid of arcane and cleric spells.
one draw back is that your spell list is very small, but it has quite a few good spells on it none the less. i think its everything you're looking for.
Just as an alternative use. One of the best uses for enervation that I ever saw in game was not on the BBEG.
From info and spying, we guessed the BBEG had protections up. Maybe globe of invul, SR, deathward, ... whatever. So the caster didn't try to use enervation on the BBEG. He cast it on the mooks.
Using a quicken rod for several rounds he was changing 2 of the mooks into wights that then attacked the BBEG from inside the defensive ring. He didn't get off hardly any spells at us.
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I remember looking at a class guide that says enervation is amazing. Is that true?It is not. Enervation is MUCH MUCH better than that.
Seriously, a ranged touch spell with no save that gives stackable long-lasting penalties to EVERYTHING and eventually kills the victim? At which point it becoms a wight and you are free to take control of it using one of your many other spells or abilities? Without even an expensive material component?
The only thing that's amazing about I is how many wizards don't take it.
Just as an alternative use. One of the best uses for enervation that I ever saw in game was not on the BBEG.From info and spying, we guessed the BBEG had protections up. Maybe globe of invul, SR, deathward, ... whatever. So the caster didn't try to use enervation on the BBEG. He cast it on the mooks.
Using a quicken rod for several rounds he was changing 2 of the mooks into wights that then attacked the BBEG from inside the defensive ring. He didn't get off hardly any spells at us.
Where does it say in the rules that creatures killed by negative levels become wights?
...Where does it say in the rules that creatures killed by negative levels become wights?
Don't know, I wasn't the caster then. No one questioned it when it happened. I guess I assumed it was a rule. Maybe it was a house rule they had long had in place and never mentioned.
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There was a thread floating around a while ago. I dont remember all that was in it, but I seem to remember something like 100 hd worth of undead control. I am trying to dig it up right now. Will post it when I find it :(
Might be useful for this post, might not...
Mostly im just doting for future reference ^.^
Edit: Well I cant seem to find it, and im going to bed. Ill look for it again in the morning.
You're probably thinking of this one. It's a lot of undead, and you can get enervate from your effective Wizard level, though a bit later. Mmmm, enervate.
@ The vulture. Ya that was it! 240Hd of animate dead! You would be able to do warhammer vampire counts sized battles with that. Thanks for finding it for me :)
If i understand this correctly, the best option is to take the undead lord cleric archetype?
I see several problems with this :
-Inability to spontaneously convert cure spells is a big drawback when trying to keep party members alive, in comparison inflict is useless except for healing your undead minions
-The reliance on a steady supply of onyx for animating undead
-Undead minion is basically a gimped animal companion without feats
-An army of undead can get pretty unwieldy, and they do nothing unless properly equipped (or are dragon skeletons or something)
Most of the necro types I have seen are going for the inflict spells in a big way. It becomes a spont cure for you and your pets and a decent offensive spell if you prepared the wrong ones. Necros are not known as the loving nurting band aid types.
I believe the bloody skels are considered more or less permanent so cost is not huge.
You can have a lot more of them (vs 1 animal companion) and have them out and prepared before the fight starts (vs. summon mon).
Yes, a bunch of pets can really slow things down. That is one of the reasons why some groups don't like them.
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So i've played two sessions of my necromancer so far, exploring a temple of Zun-kuthon.
Combat wise, i'm glad i took the undead companion because otherwise i would be fairly useless.
The first enemy the party encountered was a gelatinous cube. The party shut the door in it's face and left.
The second enemy was a water elemental. The third was a cockatrice, and the 4th was a bunch of vege pygmys.
All the standard necromancy spells would have been no help against most of them. I did end up casting cause fear on the cockatrice, and it almost made it's save. Then the cockatrice got killed in one hit each from the greatsword wielding ranger and my animal companion.
Also mage armor is starting to look like a bad idea, since i've had no reason to use it so far...hiding behind the melee PCs works very well, especially in rooms with choke points.
Shame u did not take my advice of picking up the Negative Energy Ray spell which btw makes a great heal for the minion. Also mage armor is a decent spell but more for the minion if u dont want to bother buying it armor.
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I'm planning to take it on my next level, i didn't take it at 3rd level because it's only 2d8, and infernal healing is still a better heal at that point.
I ended up giving the minion hide armor, probably gonna switch to studded leather if given the chance later on (DM auto-generates most loot, so far we have two banded mails that nobody can wear, a small sized lance when we have no small characters in our party, a short bow, some random stuff like smoke sticks...)
At least u took my advice on the wizard variant for the skeletal minion. Primarily as a necro going ur wrought is merely hide behind party till u get animate then hide behind minions. Once u get Negative Energy Burst, should be the 1st level 3 spell u pick up, then start spamming that to heal ur minions and kill groups of things. And remember claim the bones of the 1st dragon u come across to animate it into a bloody skeleton, u will not be disappointed.
Try Araonna Chorster on for size. She's a 15th-level human death oracle that leads an army of non-evil undead, including a purple worm zombie that functions as a makeshift "ground-craft carrier."
At a glance, she can control a total of 196 HD worth of undead via animate dead, though she can control much more with her Command Undead feat. All of her undead minions were created in a desecrated area with an alter, which currently resides on another plane of existence (created vis lesser create demiplane) that resides within her purple worm zombie's maw (which she treats as an aircraft carrier of sorts). In general, she has her purple worm come up in the midst of her foes, spewing forth undead giants and wreaking havoc while she and her cyclops lieutenant fly over head raining down spells and boulders from their undead roc steeds.
If more numbers are needed, she will create a host of uncontrolled undead, leave them in her demiplane, and set them loose upon her enemies when and where appropriate.
The only way I can see having a larger undead army is to either have a higher level character, be a mystic theurge, or invest in Words of Power (specifically the UNDEATH power word).
Feel free to modify her to taste. Also, be sure to check out my Crazy Character Emporium for other inspiring characters.
Try Araonna Chorster on for size. She's a 15th-level human death oracle that leads an army of non-evil undead, including a purple worm zombie that functions as a makeshift "ground-craft carrier."
How does she gets to 196 HD? I'm calculating:
Class level = 15
Ioun stone = 1
Varisian Tattoo (+Spell Perfection) = 1(+1)
Spell Specialization (+Spell Perfection) = 2(+2)
Undead Master* (+Spell Perfection) = 4(+4)
Total CL = 30
Undeads controlled 30 x 6 = 180 HD... Where does those extra 16 HD come?
*I'll consider that undead master counts for undead controlled, since is not clear in the description: it says you count 4 level higher when "animating" but also works on the command undead feat (which doesn't let you animate anything)... So i'll assume it works both for animating AND controlling undead.
Did you count Command Undead? She can create them with animate dead, then when they become uncontrolled due to level limits, command them anyways.
I'll look into it. There may well be an error there.
Did you count Command Undead? She can create them with animate dead, then when they become uncontrolled due to level limits, command them anyways.
I'll look into it. There may well be an error there.
I only counted what you can create/control (based on your interpretation of undead master) with animate dead. If you add command undead the number goes way above that xD.
