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The generalist got done dirty, as usual.


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There are other parts i'm not really enthusiast about, i was just answering my personal opinion why specifically schools feel thematically weak, at least to me.


Bluemagetim wrote:

Can someone explain to me what about the wizard schools makes them weak in flavor.

I thought the themeing of the wizard schools was actually one of the good changes about wizards, mechanics are another thing entirely but whether its something you like or dont (or think missed the mark in spell selection) having a spell slot dedicated to the school theme is at least an attempt to have mechanics reflect theme.

For what i see in my inexperienced dislike of the class as it is (which has always been my favourite in the past) is that while i like the current concept of the schools, the actual benefits feel disjointed and very vaguely related to the themes of the school... off the top of my head: why doesn't civic wizardry get mending but gets read aura? why doesn't battle magic get sure strike but gets mist? Not saying they aren't useful, but feels like they tried to cram in stuff to justify a class feature but didn't have enough material to make that class feature feel cohesive.


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Teridax wrote:
The one effect I'd probably keep an eye out for is the Field Research feat, which lets you commit spells you've recognized to memory and learn them without the need of a scroll or person: if you're planning on giving enemies uncommon or rare spells that you really don't want your...

That makes a lot of sense, i will keep an eye out for that.

Teridax wrote:
As for the layout, I've seen this happen for different people on different browsers: which browser are you using? I edited my document in Chrome, and shortened a bit of the preceding feat's text so that Scroll Polymath hopefully doesn't cut off on your side

Ok, that solved the issue, thank you very much.

Thank you for all the answers as well. I'll let you know how it goes if one of my players choses to test this out.


Teridax wrote:
Thank you very much for the kind words, and absolutely, yes! I'll be happy to answer any questions you or anyone else may have about my brew, and would be more than glad to help integrate it into your game.

Ok so:

1) Am i missing something due my inexperience with the 2e rules or the Civic Wizardry Spellshape Feat is a little underwhelming compared to the others? I've checked both Player Core 1 and 2 and i either have not found many Spells that can benefit from it or it's a benefit so good that it compensate its more limited application. What is that i'm not seeing?

2) Universal magic says to add all spells you have access to to your Spellbok, does that mean that the Wizard still needs to find those Spells through Scrolls or Teacher, or do they just add all common Spells to the Spellbook as soon as the Spell Rank is available, giving them access to basically all core spell regardless of tradition for no cost?

3) If i plan to run premade adventures, should i be careful about particular applications of abilities that might need a stricter adjudication to not be abusable?

(i also might have found a typo and a layout issue:
Typo: Universal Magic School mentions adding all 1st LEVEL spells;
Layout: Scroll Polymath text cuts off even though in the source it is displayed in full.)


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Also unrelated, Theridax, i like your homebrew a lot, can i ask you a couple question about it? I've been coming back to PF after a very long hiatus (haven't played since 1e advanced class guide) and i like your wizard much more than the official, so i wanted to integrate as an option in a game i wanto to run.


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AestheticDialectic wrote:
TittoPaolo210 wrote:

Yes, they all study practically, but tell me who among the classes you mentioned who do you picture with their nose buried in their book as other people are praying, tuning their instruments and making rituals to their patron?

Also, the bonded object is an object is which the wizard put their magic, they can switch it as easy as the undies. It has nothing to do with the source of their power. They source of their power is knowledge.

All of them. Some of what inspired the wizard was like certain Eastern Orthodox priests and Kabbalah stuff. A lot of religious writing is in books, and a lot of academic institutions in the west were originally set up by the religious. Much fo the clergy in the real world were learned and spending time studying. I also need to stress in 1e if you lose your bonded item you lost the ability to cast spells. Wizards learn about magic, they don't have magic as part of their being in anyways, but the ability to actually use magic must comes from somewhere and while it is poorly explained for the wizard, the arcane bond in 1e gave us some insight

Ok, now i don't understand if you are being voluntarily obtuse or i'm incapable of explaining myself. Which is the class that has a literal book as a class feature? Not a holy symbol, not a musical instrument, not a magical animal, a book? What is traditionally a symbol of knowledge: a musical instrument, a holy symbol, a magical animal or a book?

Also, in 1e if you had a familiar you had 0 need for a bonded item, and losing the bonded item gave you a penalty to cast, but you could still do anything you could before. So, no, the bonded item has never been the source of a wizard magic.

Then again, i'm not arguing for or against giving wizard more skills, but saying the wizard is not the iconic book knowledge class is flatly untrue.


AestheticDialectic wrote:
TittoPaolo210 wrote:
Being an intelligence caster doesn't make the theme though, the bard get's their magic because of artistry, the cleric gets their magic because of devotion, the witch get their magic because they make a communion with a supernatural patron... the wizard get their magic because they are a book nerd, that's their theme.

Bards definitely study their magic and even are within the lore learned. They perform and do art as part of the casting of spells, but they learn these spells and they study the occult among other things. Clerics do this for divine magic, and they are granted the ability cast spells through their god, but that God doesn't cast them for them. They have to learn and practice this still. Druids also learn their magic. Witches are granted the ability to perform magic with a patron, but they still have to learn the magic and study it. Wizards also have a power source like the patron, god, nature, or what have you. It's the bonded item. Wizards and Bards are actually so thematically similar that without looking at character sheets and stats, you'd assume they were two different approaches to the academic pursuit of magic. I would fully support an int bard it's perfectly thematically appropriate

There is a reason to some degree the designers feel the d20 wizard is a defunct and archaic concept

Yes, they all study practically, but tell me who among the classes you mentioned who do you picture with their nose buried in their book as other people are praying, tuning their instruments and making rituals to their patron?

Also, the bonded object is an object is which the wizard put their magic, they can switch it as easy as the undies. It has nothing to do with the source of their power. They source of their power is knowledge.


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AestheticDialectic wrote:
TittoPaolo210 wrote:
I think the deal is that the theme of wizards is "studied so hard the laws of fantasy physics that i know the how to control them to my advantage, even though it is would be usually barred behind bloodline factors, subservience to higher entities or an innate psychic potential"... so, in that "i studied a lot" theme there falls a lot of knowledge.
But it isn't "fantasy physics" it specifically just arcane magic. Bards study magic too, and so do Clerics even. I would even say Witches learn their magic, the patron is just the means by which they learn it. Still an Int caster. Leveling up and casting better spells is learning and practicing that magic, the source and kind is just different. Wizards are just specifically academic about it, which should probably mean that they actually would have the most narrow knowledge about things

Being an intelligence caster doesn't make the theme though, the bard get's their magic because of artistry, the cleric gets their magic because of devotion, the witch get their magic because they make a communion with a supernatural patron... the wizard get their magic because they are a book nerd, that's their theme.


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I think the deal is that the theme of wizards is "studied so hard the laws of fantasy physics that i know the how to control them to my advantage, even though it is would be usually barred behind bloodline factors, subservience to higher entities or an innate psychic potential"... so, in that "i studied a lot" theme there falls a lot of knowledge.


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Teridax wrote:
The Wizard in that brew is a 3-slot caster by default and every arcane thesis is dramatically more powerful, hence the above. If we were to bring this down to the level of other current arcane theses, being very good at RK in general could work as something to opt into, and sacrificing more generic power would allow the Wizard to make even better use of this.

This is a cool homebrew. I frankly don't understand why they went with bonded item as a general wizard feature instead of spell substitution.


That's actually a great reading. Huge thanks.


I have troubles with a rule on how archetypes are applied to class features, and it's causing my group a lot of headaches. I've long searched for clarifications, but this is barely adressed anywhere.

The rule is the following:

"If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue."

Ok, so it gives the example of sneak attack, weapon training and favoured enemy, ok, great; but which feature count as improving and which don't?

For example, does a monk flurry of blows count as improving at 8th and 15th level? So if i take the Master of Many Style archetype, i get 1 flurry attack at 8th and a second at 15th in addition to more styles to fuse?

What about high jump, does it count as improving every level so if i lose this feature i get one level less on the total but basically still having it (i.e. Monk of the Sacred Mountain)?

Does gaining 2nd level spells count as improving your ability to cast spells? So, a Skirmisher Ranger or a Warrior of the Holy Light Paladin still gain spells, just with a 3 level delay?

Our GM is worried about balance because he fears that if he lets any class feature that vaguely improves qualify, having archetypes would most of the time be the way to go cause instead of giving different features, it actually gives more.


Why do we assume that people with 20th-level/10-tier will be staying on Golarion (actually, why most 20th-level non mythic would)? I mean, they are individuals so powerful they can stand toe-to-toe with demigods, they are immortal, they are almost unkillable... Some will be able to travel between planets and realities on their own power, others will surely have some other mean to do it be it an outsider companion/slave, an artifact or something else... For how long would they remain on Golarion when the entire multiverse is right there for them to see?


I'm writing my thesis on teamwork and group mechanics in enterprises and its parallels in rpgs, i wish you the best luck xD.


Cranky Dog wrote:
Selk wrote:
Wizards are taught to respect and fear it, and to treat the proliferation of its secrets as an exercise in catastrophe control. They select apprentices and accept students carefully, weighing their ambition and morals alongside their aptitude. Wizard academies exist to educate, but they also serve to monitor and control, to secret away dangerous spellbooks, to keep war mages loyal to the crown, to preserve an air of rarity, and to guide necromancers away from being the next Adventure Path villain. A free exchange of magical learning would start an arms race, a collapse of sovereignty – or just summon a world eater – that no sane, well-educated wizard wants.

Enter the sorcerers... and the wizards collectively cast Arcane Hand of Facepalming (aka Bigby's Facepalm).

This could be a good reason to have friction between wizards who are properly trained in responsible use of magic and wild card sorcerers who can run the whole spectrum of responsibility.

I can easily imagine the average sorcerer constantly pointing out that all the time the wizard was putting into mastering magic, the sorcerer was getting laid (high CHA + Charm Person + teenage hormones).

Actually, mechanically speaking, sorcerers should also has to study a little to control their gift, wether alone or with masters. Maybe they have to study a lot less, but they need to learn the verbal and somatic components to cast the spells they know, and those components are equal for everyone, since spellcraft is equal for everyone (even more oddly oracles have to too, but that's another topic).


The point is that a sistem with the flat advancement during levels actually punishes you heavily if you don't minmax your character during character creation and leveling up. Wether point buy or rolling won't make a difference. Sure, with point buy i can dump strenght from my wizard. You think that rolling will make a difference? You can be sure the lowest stat rolled will get to strenght. Doesn't matter what it will be. It's a stat i won't ever use, it will always be my dump, it matters nothing if there's written 7 or 14.

If you wan't to make people try unusual concept don't force them to take something with no reason other than "random"; rather encourage them: make raising low scores easier than higher scores (a point buy going on as the character gains levels), give more stat advancement with limits on what they can be spent (something like: at 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18 you get a +1 to one of your 3 lowest ability scores) or something else like that... Or at least give them something to use that stat for that mash well with the concept: why would i ever make a 14 strenght wizard, if i won't ever be in a situation where being that strong actually has a purpouse? If it will just be a number on a sheet of paper that won't ever come up in play, it can even be a 1 or a 20, it won't ake any difference, i wil always stay in the back and cast spells...

Don't take away options, take away punishment and give good things. Players always like good things.


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Taku expressed perfectly what i would have suggested.


I use two options: when i give high magic items availability and tons of gold and when i don't. This is because i feel MAD characters also need a lot of items to keep their stats relevant, so i felt i needed to balance that too.

1) Mountains of gold: i start with a 15 point buy then i give another 1 point at level 2 and every level thereafter, plus 1 bonus point at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20. This points are expendable at every level up and are all pooled until you spend them. Racial modifier are taken into account only after you spent your points (so they basically means you pay stats as they were higher or lower, depending on the modifiers). This makes so that the SAD character gets his awesome high stat (almost equal to normal advancement, two points gets lost on the way and i'm working on adding them in a consistent way) which will cost more and more to advance the higher you get, but the MAD character also can spread his points on many stats without falling too much behind. In the end, the characters have the same point buy up to level 20. I noticed this encourages a little to balance more characters, but also doesn't punish those who don't dump everything into their ONE TRUE STAT, which is what i want to achieve: "sure, you can spend 5 levels to get a +1 modifier on your primary stat, but you could also get two or even more +1 modifiers which will help you level a lot of weaknesses for the same price" and the higher you get the more you are encouraged to spread your points.

2) This magic shop is closed, (never) come again later: I use the same system but i give 5 points per level from level 2 to 5, 6 points per level from 6 to 10, 7 from 11 to 15 and 8 from 16 to 20 (togheter with integrated big six). This makes characters stronger all around (since both MAD and SAD get a lot more points than they would normally get, even with items), but it helps them since most magic items are not easily available.


FuelDrop wrote:
TittoPaolo210 wrote:

Some more from my GM.

1) There is always one and only way to solve a given situation. If you don't do as he planned AND roll high, you will fail no matter what.

2) A few times, when he misinterpreted what the party decided to do and started describing things that were planned for another course of action (like choosing a door over another). When it became clear he misunderstood:

"Well, you instead do the thing you wanted to avoid, this time."

No reason given. It also happened for things said to NPCs because it was not clear to players who they were or what they were doing (while the characters should have known).

- Every time something is happening for story reasons, you stand by side and watch, you can't interrupt it. No time, resources, spells, builds, Wish or Miracles will give you a single chance to do anything, and if they do, they're guaranteed (like, a 110% cover insurance) to backfire on you creating an even worse situation.

No amount of good things you do will create anything good unless it's the end of the campaign.

I recently walked out of a campaign for this exact reason, along with the entire story focusing on the GMPC.

The GM in question has said I walked because I was a bad roleplaying rules lawyer who just didn't get it. Draw your own conclusions.

I feel for you, bro. At least my GM is pretty good at setting very likeable stories and NPCs (which rarely steal the spotlight), so when you have no other choice but to play with him, there's something good to get other than frustration.


Some more from my GM.

1) There is always one and only way to solve a given situation. If you don't do as he planned AND roll high, you will fail no matter what.

2) A few times, when he misinterpreted what the party decided to do and started describing things that were planned for another course of action (like choosing a door over another). When it became clear he misunderstood:

"Well, you instead do the thing you wanted to avoid, this time."

No reason given. It also happened for things said to NPCs because it was not clear to players who they were or what they were doing (while the characters should have known).

- Every time something is happening for story reasons, you stand by side and watch, you can't interrupt it. No time, resources, spells, builds, Wish or Miracles will give you a single chance to do anything, and if they do, they're guaranteed (like, a 110% cover insurance) to backfire on you creating an even worse situation.

No amount of good things you do will create anything good unless it's the end of the campaign.


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I have too many from the most-often GM in my group of friends. I started GMing so he wouldn't have to.

Natural 20 on a skill check is a perfect execution, no matter what. Disguise? No amount of perception will let you see through it. Bluff? You believe me when i tell you your brain is trying to kill you. Stealth? I basically become invisible, don't make any sound, lose any scent i could have, stop emitting vibration and there is absolutely NO WAY you will ever be able to find me. Then some pc (girls, and i would like to point out is not their fault) and other npc pop up with the ability to take automatic natural 20 on specific skill checks… for character background reasons.

Every time we fight an npc prepared caster, he never needs to prepare spells, nor even has limited slots or needs components or casting time. The guy basically opens the manual and choses what he wants to cast turn by turn. One rapid spell and one normal. Also metamagic feats applied according to what is needed.

In general, doesn't matter what modifiers you have, if your dice score is high, you succed, if it's low you fail. I can't even count how many time i lost track of a heavy armor no ranks in stealth antipaladin in our party with my +23 base perception.

Also, world of darkness system, late game, no more that two session away from the final (fighting) encounter against the BBEGs, everybody high power, i was extremely over optimized for fighting: basically able to one-shot anything with a "standard sheet life-bar" and needed 5 times max damage to be stopped. I challenge to fight an ally NPC for story reason and my GM wants to roleplay the scene away from the table.

Me: let me get the dices.
GM: doesn't matter, come with me.

I follow him, confused.

GM: everything you do is useless. He is better than you in every way: stronger, faster, more resilient. He beats you.

I expected to lose, but… being humiliated at my own specialty with a maxed out character without even rolling dice? Why was even a final encounter needed? Why didn't he solve the story… like... yesterday?


Almost every character i ever played (and when i didn't, i was making a conscious effort not to) was some form of power hungry and a bit manipulative good guy who usually aimed at protecting his loved ones from everything, including themselves. I can't deny that this tells a lot about me...


According to Chronicle of the Righteous, Time Travel was banned by a Divine Council of Empyreal Lords from getting into mortal hands in Golarion, so i doubt it will ever become a thing... At lest in this setting.


They all seems pretty much reasonable things, aside for technicalities that are problems with the skill, not the take 10 rule.

For example, jump skills are pretty easier than they should be to be realistic. Any level 1 character with investment would be able to outjump an olympic athlete almost without rolling.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Well, the fact that they don't have any more skills than a starting 17 year old human at over 100 means something...though what exactly is unclear.

But that's pretty much it.

Actually elves get more skill points than most other races. If we base ourselves on average ability scores... It's right there, in the Ability Score Racial Trait: +2 Int.

They have no more starting skill than a 17 years old human because humans, compared to other races, are really crazy learner: they have an entire racial trait that makes them learn more than their average intelligence should let them...

The problem is the entire system not letting a character learn anything if they don't level up, so either you let elves start at higher level, or you can't mechanically represent it according to rules as they are now...


I use all of the above plus the chance to use called shots as a standard action (not a full round), to let martial to do a little debuff if they want (when they have to move too much to make a full attack).

I give monks the chance to spend 1 ki to consider BAB = HD for one round (for a simple full attack with more accuracy than a flurry or a called shot and move).

Advanced rogue talent that let the character flank with himself if he succed an acrobatics check against enemy CMD as part of the attack action.

Pounce as a 8° level fighter feat (that, with the chance to make full attack and move half speed anyway, is useful when you want to charge but not essential to a fighter build).


I use a growing 15 point buy... or better to say a growing 16 point buy.

Instead of giving flat bonuses every 4 level i give 1 point-buy per level +1 every 4 levels.

This way a min/maxed character and a more balanced character will always have the same point by build, SAD characters are able to dump everything in their main stat that will cost more and more but in the end will gain the same advancement, meanwhile MAD characters can spread their advancement on multiple ability scores for a lot less.

e.g. A SAD char needs 8 level to take is relevant ability score from 18 to 20(remaining with 1 point), while a MAD char with the same levels can bring TWO stats from 10 to 14.

This way who wants to min/max will be maxed out as always, meanwhile more balanced character won't be left behind, because they need a lot less levels to advance...

I noticed this also incentivizes balancing out because if you make high level stats more of an investment than low ones players won't feel the need to spend their only advancement in already high stats to not let those same advancement go to waste.

I had a human barbarian player who started with a min maxed 17(+2)12 16 8 7 7 because he built with the base game assumption. Now, at level 8, he spent some points to bring up strenghth to 20, intelligence to 10 and is thinking about bringing up wisdom and charisma to at least 8 because by the end of the chronicle he will have some points that he won't use in strenght anyway because they are not enough to make it go up more...

Also by end game you wont have a wizard that has:
Str 7
Dex14
Con 14
Int 25(+tome/wish+items)
Wis 7
Cha 7

wich is the equivalent of a 46 point by and the monk with:
Str 18(+wish/tomes+items)
Dex 14(+wish/tomes+items)
Con 12
Int 9
Wis 14(+wish/tomes+items)
Cha 7

wich equals to a 24 (almost half that of the wizard) and is more expensive.

(This system was suggested on this boards some times ago, not by me)


I prefer to play human for flavor reasons: in fantasy every race gets compared with others and gets something "special": elves are more nimble and intelligent and better with magic than the average other race, dwarves are sturdier and better at carrying armor than the average other race. Some races are more strange because fey/celestial/fiendish/undead heritage, some are totally unique and bizarre in their nature...

Humans are THE average other race. Flavor (and i stress "flavor") wise there is nothing they are better, and that's what makes them special to me. I like to picture my character going even in awesomeness with more skilled or rare exotic races not because of what is born, but because of what he's trained to achieve. I like to play Average Joe ascending after training all his life, rather than Gifted Awesomenosiriel being the One because natural talent/heritage/luck.

Mechanics only come after. Ironically, most of the time is when i'm not playing a human that i'm more interested in mechanical benefits.


Uhm… should i point out that "advancing beyond 20th level" rules are vague and basically say "you can do this or this" and are not (more or less) precise like others in the manual because they basically say "past 20th level is hard to make mechanics work but you can do whatever you want", so considering them actual rules and not warnings and houserules is a bit much?

But i admit i made i made a mistake, i'll rephrase my last comment:

In Golarion, the basic assumption when talking about a pc class in a context, npc with class level don't go over level 20 (even the mythic ones) so level 20 is a physical cap.. [paste here my last post].

In your homegames, knowing pros and cons, do whatever you like.


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The point is level 20 (mythic 10) is the physical cap according to rules. Not time cap, physical cap. And that's more obvious when consider you can have a 20 years old human wizard level 20 side by side with a 500 elf ranger 8.

You can train to be the fastest man alive, but after a certain point you won't get any better even if you train for 500 years… and, if you train for something else and don't continue to maintain your skill, you loose focus and that's akin to retraining levels. If you join the army you won't have as much time to dedicate to studies, since you need time for training, and you will loose focus, most complex notions won't be as immediate as they were before. So once you hit 20 you physically can't get any better no matter what.

The point of the magus is he effectively divides training and studies equally, that's why he gets 3/4 BAB and diminished spellcasting. Once he stops doing that he will either focus on training(fighter) or on his stusies (wizard) and he will get (or retrain) levels accordingly.


Well, Erastil is the god of family. That could work.


awp832 wrote:

Yes I was trying to figure out exactly what 'a standard action that allows for multiple attacks' meant. Most likely it's referring to Cleave.

As far as power gap is concerned, there is precedent for it, like the feat Quick Dirty Trick which seems very similar. Yes, it's strong, but in both cases you have to spend multiple feats for it, one of them being Combat Expertise -which is pretty worthless.

if you read the Editors note under the feats in the page that you linked, the Editor clarifies that Called Shots are normally Full Round actions, not standard actions.

It's a precedent where the original action starts as a standard action, not a full round, that's why it makes me even more suspicious about the "full round action" error, instead of the "standard action" error. (the first point being you have to mess up once in the former case, you have to mess up twice in the latter.


awp832 wrote:
you could be a tatooed sorcerer archetype and get varisian tattoo for free.

Didn't know about that. Thanks.


awp832 wrote:
it is indeed silly that they messed up like that. However, to me I think it's fairly clear it's a full round action. The text on those feats must be in error.

If that is, it's really a shame... And it's really an ugly power gap they create...


wraithstrike wrote:

Feats basically allow you to do things the normal rules don't allow. The improved called shot and greater call shot feats remove the full round action restriction.

Some feats including those in this section have a statement following the word "normal" that tells you how things would be without the feat.

And in the "normal" section they state something that goes against the rule. So the rule says, that

If i assume that a called shot is a standard action i can assume that a feat called "improved called shot" lets me make a called shot a part of a full round action...

If i assume that a called shot is a full-round action, in a feat like "improved called shot" the power gap is obscenely wide: i go from making a called shot as a full-round to making a called shot as a fraction of a standard action ("standard action that gives you multiple attacks") with a single feat.

Since it's clearly stated that the feats were intended for called shot as a standard action, we should know if it can actually be done without the feat, since a lot of options for combat open (and gives an actual utility to characters who usually full attack when they can't)...


8 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Called Shots...

What.

It says called shots are a full-round action, but in the feats below it says called shots normally take a standard action... If it's a mistake the "standard action" part it would invalidate bot feats, since they are based on that assumpion...

However, if it's a mistake the "full-round action" part (and that's what i hope) this could be a nice boost for meelee characters and give them some pretty useful options (especially for fighters, who starve for options)... And when they'll hear people aks "when you don't full attack, what do you do with your sword?", they'll be able to respond "I debuff!"

FAQ this thread (bad pun semi-intended).

EDIT: Stupid double post...


james knowles wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, and Gifted Adept probably.
Wow, that's a pretty potent 1-trick pony. But using all those feats on that stuff doesn't leave much room for anything else later on.

How do you get a 3 feats at first level? Both Spell Specialization and Varisian Tattoo need Spell Focus as a prerequisite.


eakratz wrote:
Not a feat but a trait. Finding Haleen from Legacy of Fire gives you an extra hit point and skill point every level. It's like toughness and a +2 to intelligence all in one (for a trait).

I just discovered this and this is crazy... It's the best trait ever... If you are a human and take toughness you get 2 skill point and 2 HP per level + 1 favoured class... and you could add fast learner too...


Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Unless you're playing a "Come and Get Me" barbarian, I have a hard time seeing you getting a lot of AoOs without a polearm + Enlarged gimmick.

With snake style i get an AoO every time my enemy misses an attack (and i can use a sense motive check instead of my AC or touch AC for one attack/round), and with brawler at level 9 enemies will provoke even if they try to get out from my threatened area with 5-foot step or withdraw action. Also brawler has menacing stance wich gives penalties to attack (and concentration), so increased chances to avoid hits and land AoO.

So AoO wether you try to hit and fail or to run.

Now if there is a way to get an AoO every time you get hit, that would be jackpot...


Sir Thugsalot wrote:

You have three odd-numbered stats and none of them are your prime stat (which implies you won't be advancing the one you dropped the most points into, which is grossly inefficient).

[...]

*Your build specified heavy armor, yet I'm seeing a lot of extra build point devoted to raising dexterity to 15, a score which will be immediately severely...

Thanks for your suggestions, but Dex pumped up is also needed if i focus my build on AoO (which can go up to 4 per round with combat reflexes and the 4th level stat increase) and two-weapon fighting; it's not just about the AC... If i want to TWF, i need at least 15 on Dex wether i use its bonus on AC or not (wearing heavy armor)... Not speaking about continuing on that feat chain. Con could go down a little to avoid the odd level and not needing to spend an increase on it later on, that's for sure...

But i'll definitely talk to my GM about stacking Weapon Enhancement and AoMF Enhancement.


Zodiac_Sheep wrote:

If I understand correctly though, Weapon Finesse with the proper weapon replaces the strength score with a dexterity score. Since I would be using a light martial weapon, and starting at level 10 and therefore not having to worry about a time before Weapon Finesse, would that not make strength fairly irrelevant?

I'd also like to point out that my ability scores were written ambiguously. They are (after the racial bonuses, which I didn't make very clear)...

STR - 7
DEX - 19
CON - 14
INT - 14
WIS - 10
CHA - 7

Weapon Finesse replaces strenght with dexterity on "to hit" rolls, "damage" rolls are still based on strenght.


XMorsX wrote:

Action economy and efficiency are the reasons that cornugon smash makes the other boar style feats obsolete. With cornugon smash you can intimidate as a free action every time you power attack (meaning almost any time you attack). It is way better than the situational intimidate of the boar ferocity and completely triumphs boar shred. The bonus damage that these feats provide is just not enough to justify the fat tax either.

An alternative instead of Double Slice and Two-Weapon Rend could be Furious Finish and Dreadful Carnage.

I don't think is Boar Ferocity is so situational, since, as a fighter with TWF you should be able to pull at least two hits per round, but with a power attack build changes everything. You have a point over Boar shred, though...

And why not taking two levels of monk? isn't it worthy delaying your fighter class abilities for another level in exchange for +1 to your weak saves, free toughness and +1 natural armor (if you go with Monk of the Sacred Mountain)?
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P.S. Now that i notice, i made a mistake in my first post, i should have put IUS (which i totally forgot) as a bonus feat at first level and Toughness (which i put at first level) as a bonus feat at second level.
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Nice suggestions XMorsX.

It's a shame having to take double slice as a usless prerequisite feat since "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."

Also, what are the pros of taking Cornugon Smash insted of completing the boar style chain which gives you another +2 to intimidate and 1d6 bleed damage per round aside than saving a feat?


Hello everyone, i'm building a fighter with cestus and heavy armor and i really could use some advice for a non-optimized campaign (so no need to go crazy over sub-optimal choices i made).
A little note: my GM counts attack with cestus as "armed unarmed strikes", so everything you can do with unarmed strikes you can do with the weapon.

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Race: Human

Stats (25 point-buy)

- if going with Boar Style
Str:16+2
Dex:15
Con:15
Int:10
Wis:14
Cha:7

- if going with Crane Style
Str:16+2
Dex:15
Con:15
Int:8
Wis:14
Cha:8

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He would go as Monk (Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Sacred Mountain) for the first two levels, then switch to Fighter (Brawler)...

His first ability score increase should go on dexterity to pump up his number of AoO with combat reflexes.

His Skill points should go mostly on Acrobatics(for Dragon Style and Snake Style) and Sense Motive(For Snake Style). Maybe Intimidate (for Boar Style).

Doesn't matter if he loses his Wisdom and Dexterity bonus to AC wearing heavy armor (actually my GM strips us of our equipment every now and then and also seems to love night attacks, so they will come in handy).

He will always take HP as a favored class option (fighter).

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Feats:

1- Dodge(Character)
1- Two-Weapon Fighting(Bonus Human)
1- Stunning Fist(Bonus Monk)
1- Toughness(Bonus MotSM)
1- Snake Style(Bonus MoMS, ignore prerequisites)

2- Snake Fang(Bonus MoMS, ignore prerequisites)

3- Weapon Focus(Character)
3- Combat Reflexes(Bonus Fighter)

4- Dragon Style(Bonus Fighter)

5- Dragon Ferocity (Character)

6- Weapon Specialization (Bonus Fighter)

7- Combat Style Master (Character)

8- Boar Style/Crane Style (Bonus Fighter)

9- Boar Ferocity/Crane Wing (Character)

10- Greater Weapon Focus (Bonus Fighter)

11- Boar Shred/Crane Riposte (Character)

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At level 3 he basically enters Snake style (swift action) in the first round and takes advantage of his 21+ AC (+9 armor, +1 dex, +1 natural armor, +# magic) to get as many AoO as possible from enemy misses with snake fang (which turns every attack he avoids in an AoO). After the first round he uses snake style to try and get a little more AC every now and then with a Sense Motive Check or turning the first AoO that hits into a second attack (both immediate actions).

Up to level 6 he enters the Dragon stance in the second round, maintaining the Snake stance (MoMS) and adding damage from the style and bonus to hit and damage from Brawler. From third round he goes as before.

At level 7 he can enter the Snake stance as combat starts and Dragon stance as a free action, so he can use Snake Style to get an improved AC or a bonus attack from first round. Plus, as a brawler, he gets menacing stance, which increases his chance of avoiding attacks and get more AoO with Snake Fang.

Plus, at 9 he gets an attack of opportunity every time an enemy within reach makes a 5-foot step or a withdraw action. So enemies will be provoke AoO both if they attack and miss and if they try to run.

Now i have two option and i'm not sure which would be better:

1) He could go with Boar Style. At level 11, then, he enters Snake stance at the start of the fight just in case he can get some AoO. In his round switches to Boar and Dragon as free actions and uses the expanded damage of both styles (and his free intimidate check if he gets one). At the end of his turn he maintains Dragon and switches back to Snake to get some more AoO with improved damage against enemies miss. Then repeats.

2) He could go with Crane Style. At level 11, then, he enters Snake stance at the start of the fight just in case he can get some AoO. In his round switches to Crane and Dragon as free actions and uses the expanded damage of Dragon and improves is AC fighting defensively. At the end of his turn he maintains Crane and switches back to Snake to get an automatic AoO with Crane Riposte against first enemy attack, an improved AC with Snake Style against the second (and possibly another AoO) and an overall better AC against everything else for more AoO (which includes a bonus attack with snake fang if he doesn't use his immediate action). Then repeats.

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Is it better going with Boar or Crane?

Should i take Dodge at first level even if i go with Boar or something else, like Intimidating Prowess, would be better?

Should i continue on the TWF chain starting from level 12?

If going with Boar, i was thinking of taking a level in Rogue (Thug) to get Frithening, is it worth it?

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.


Arakhor wrote:
Any villain worth his salt is likely not to be a "random" person either, but if he's smiling and pressing flesh at a local do, I wouldn't want a simple detect evil to pick him out of the crowd.

True. But to avoid that you can always put more evil guy just as you put good guys. You don't need to make any evil guy ready to sacrifice every child he sees. Someone might be a bad guy just because he is a sadist, and he likes it. Or because he killed his parents to get the inheritance faster. Maybe someone is just hateful of other people... You could even be a bad guy because you help others for the sake of self-glorification and you're ready to sacrifice others for that (there's no need to actually do it, just that you think it's right to do). And none of them will be the bad guy of the story.

Just to mix up, you could make the BBEG not actually evil, and make true evil guys help the party.

The point is: if the characters only find 2-3 evil NPCs over the course of a campaign (and others are their minions) it's obvious they are going to strike for them when something happen. But when there are in equal numbers with neutrals and good, the character have to discover who to punish for what. And you can play a lot with that.


Arakhor wrote:
I like that idea. Fiends and undead I could happily back being able to ping; random evil people, not so much.

Technically you don't have an aligned aura if you are a humanoid with less than 5 HD, unless you are a cleric or a paladin/antipaladin... And with 5 or more HD you really don't register as a "random" person.


jeffh wrote:

A saving throw entry containing "(harmless)" means there is no save unless the target specifically wants there to be one, so it at least changes the default. That's not the confusing part - I think everyone who knows the rules well enough to be aware of the (harmless) tag's existence realizes this.

A spell resistance entry containing "(harmless)", on the other hand, doesn't work any differently from one without it. The creature still has to lower its SR as a standard action to be affected. So contrary to the first sentence of the rule that ostensibly describes it, (harmless) does NOT have the same meaning in a Spell Resistance entry as it does in a Saving Throw entry. In fact, it doesn't have any meaning at all in the former context.

Technically it's because you can fail a saving throw as a "no-action" wether or not the effect is harmful or not. Lowering SR is a standard action wether the effect is harmful or not...

If i don't want to mentally resist to a charm (i suppress the natural instinct of my mind to resist external influence), i automatically fail, just the same as if i'm targeted by a fireball and i don't move (i suppress the natural instinct of my body to avoid harm). This applies to both beneficial and harmful effects.

So if i want to resist a beneficial effect, it is treated exactly in the same way as an harmful effect, and vice versa.

The "harmless" notation is there to make you notice that you can make a saving throw, just that most of the time you shouldn't want to.


The text says "attempting to dispel or erase the explosive runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion". I suppose that completely destroying the item that holds the runes counts as succeding at erasing them... although a GM may also read it as "failing to erase them with an erase spell triggers the explosion, other methods to erase them work just fine."

EDIT: ninja'd by Cult xD


Abraham spalding wrote:
Well I guess it makes about as much sense as allowing everything from two different classes to stack when the come from the same source.

Every similiar feature coming from two classes stacks, for what i can see: BAB, saving throws, number of spells, HP. The only thing i can find doesn't stack are bonuses (with limited stated exception). An undead pool is not a bonus, so it should stack.