I accept your challenge Wiggz! Though you certainly made a high bar to jump! Here's a Fighter build that may not beat your Paladin's build, but I feel can give him stiff competition in a regular ol' slugging match.
Human 12th level Fighter
Attributes:
STR 14
DEX 18 (+2 Racial Bonus, +1 at 8th, and 12th)
CON 14
INT 13 (+1 at 4th)
WIS 8
CHA 8
Feats:
1st - Fleet
1st - Dodge
1st - Combat Reflexes
2nd - Pin Down
3rd - Stand Still
4th - Toughness
5th - Combat Expertise
6th - Improved Disarm
7th - Improved Trip
8th - Greater Trip
9th - Shield Focus
10th - Greater Disarm
11th - Greater Shield Focus
12th - Agile Maneuvers
Special Abilities
Weapon Training 2
Armor Training 3
Bravery +3
Now, I'm guessing the general idea is apparent from his Feat list, and I am going to assume some basic equipment just because a fighter without equipment is like Batman without his toolbelt. Yes, this is a weakness of the fighter, but unless you have a truly sadistic GM, you're not going to be stranded without any form of equipment and also be thrown through a gauntlet of the proposed proportions by yourself.
So the first real benefit of the Fighter is that their ability to use armor well far outstripes that of the given Paladin build.
If we assume (with no enchantments) that both Fighter and Paladin are equipped with basic Full-Plate and a Heavy Shield, the Paladin will have an AC of 22 (10+9 Armor+2 Shield+1 Dex [Capped lower for armor]).
The fighter with the same equipment will have an AC of 28 (10+9 Armor+4 Shield+4 Dex [Not capped due to Armor Training 3]+1 Dodge Feat).
Also, the Fighter doesn't have any natural healing ability true, but his huge list of feats allows him to take Toughness, meaning that he also edges out in HP (Avg HP of Fighter = 96, avg HP of Paladin = 84).
So, the Fighter doesn't really have greater endurance than the Paladin due to his Lay on Hands, but the extra six armor class and 12 HP makes him a solid wall to be sure.
At this point, we can start to look at the offensive capabilities of the two. Both have the same BAB, STR, and Weapon (let's say a plain ol' Longsword). But due to Weapon Training, the Fighter has a static +2 to attack/+2 damage that the Paladin doesn't. Yes, the Paladin can get a plus +3 due to his Divine Favor or his Weapon Bond, but these are temporary, only lasting one fight and only if the enemy is willing to play your game.
If say the proposed fighter and proposed paladin meet on the road and the two get into a fight, the Paladin can immediately begin dropping spells and have a huge initial leg up on the Fighter. However, the Fighter doesn't have to play that game and can choose to simply run around and avoid the Paladin while his spells wane. As the Paladin, even if unarmored, has a max speed of 30ft, and in reality is probably at 20ft due to armor. While the Fighter can go 35ft (in which, again, armor training pays off allowing full movement speed), the fighter can simply use this to play keep away until the spells wear off.
If the terrain or something else prevents this, the Fighter has other tricks up his sleeve. He can use his Disarm Feats to keep that very dangerous sword out of the Paladin's hands, forcing the Paladin to either continually try to run after it (which would be difficult due to AoOs and Pin Down restricting movement), or just try to take the Fighter down with some good ol' fashion fisticuffs. On top of all this, due to feats, and weapon training, the fighter is making his disarm attempts with a very impressive +22 bonus (12+ BAB+4 Dex+4 Disarm Feats+2 Weapon Training), which against the CMD of the Paladin's if I calculated correctly is simply 26 (10+12 BAB+2 Dex+2 Str). Meaning the Fighter is going to be able to disarm on a roll of a 4.
If the Paladin goes running for his sword (which goes 15ft in a random direction per Greater Disarm), he's got about a 50% chance he's going to have to try and get around the fighter to go after it, and the fighter gets an opportunities to stop him due to having both Pin Down, Step up, and 5 AoOs available a round.
Assuming the Paladin's got a trick up his sleeve and manages to keep his hand on his sword, he's still just as susceptible to trip attacks, the fighter still gets the same +22 to succeed, and still against the same 26. So the fighter is most likely tripping the Paladin every turn, getting an AoO for every time he goes down (per Greater Trip) and every time he stands up, giving the fighter an extra two attacks per round on the paladin, at least one of which at a +4 due to his opponent being prone, and reduces the Paladin to either trying to fight prone, or only getting one attack a round due to spending a move action to stand up.
All the while, the Paladin's going to be desparately trying to either stay standing, get his sword, or both, where as the high movement, high CMB, and massive number of feats allows the Fighter to have near complete control over the battle, most likely having combat come down to the Paladin standing up, and throwing a single punch, while the Fighter rains down attacks, using a Full Attack, with the first attack being a Trip, two other attacks, and two AoO attacks. Even if the Paladin focus's on getting his sword, he's still got to get past the Fighter's Pin Down ability, and use his full turn to run and pick up his weapon (assuming he doesn't have to stand up from being tripped that round). And even in this case, he's still extremely likely to just be disarmed again the next round.
While the amount of healing a Paladin can pump out is enough to have him be able to keep this up for a long time, but 4 attacks with a weapon (which if we still assume long swords, 1d8+4 damage per hit) versus the Paladin's 1d3+2 (possibly +5 if Divine Favor is still running) for one attack.
This is the Doom that is a Fighter. The Fighter is Batman, he doesn't hold a candle to the other classes/super heroes in terms of raw power, true. But what makes him good isn't raw power, it's the flexibility to make sure the enemy is always fighting on your terms and not theirs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wait, the classes are supposed to be fighting against each other?! Not against a selection of monsters? This exercise is even more silly than I thought...
People don't play Rogues or Bards or Wizards or Fighters or Barbarians or Monks because they're excited over the fact that they're exactly equal to everyone else. They play them because they have a concept they love a fantasy to indulge in.
That's forgetting the fact that this is a team game, where characters rely on the other characters to do their fair share. If you play an incompetent character class, that's a drag in the rest of the party. I don't want my wizard to be put in danger or rendered ineffective because I'm busty covering for your lame ass, all because you find it nifty Keen ratio play McSuckerton the Rogue.
There's a reason that people are disallowed from playing commoners, no matter how great a concept the player may have. The same applies to ostensibly player character classes that can't cut the mustard.
I just took the Paladin as an example since no specific monsters had been brought to the table, and I didn't really want to look up monster stats on top of stating a level twelve character and writing my short essay.
The original point was that Fighters are good endurance fighters and can drag their way through a gauntlet of monsters without losing speed as they burn through spells or anything like that.
I'm simply putting my spin on it that while Fighters are certainly not the best at a long term grind of combat (as Wiggz demonstrated clearly), that's not their point in my eyes. Back to the Batman reference, a fighter doesn't need a huge amount of magical equipment or fancy gear to win a difficult fight (like the Paladin), since his/her huge list of feats offers him the ability to have a bag of tricks that can indeed make up for his lack of spells and what-not.
People don't play Rogues or Bards or Wizards or Fighters or Barbarians or Monks because they're excited over the fact that they're exactly equal to everyone else. They play them because they have a concept they love a fantasy to indulge in.That's forgetting the fact that this is a team game, where characters rely on the other characters to do their fair share. If you play an incompetent character class, that's a drag in the rest of the party. I don't want my wizard to be put in danger or rendered ineffective because I'm busty covering for your lame ass, all because you find it nifty Keen ratio play McSuckerton the Rogue.
There's a reason that people are disallowed from playing commoners, no matter how great a concept the player may have. The same applies to ostensibly player character classes that can't cut the mustard.
I wouldn't say rogue is a drag to the party, but there are certainly examples of character builds that just don't work and certain archetypes that are traps and only serve to hurt you in the long run. Oddly enough I've met wizards who don't carry the group and are the drag. Having a character concept meet mechanics is sometimes a lot of work and unrelated to the class's name. I definitely wouldn't totally bar a class because I thought it was weak in pathfinder, but I might warn the player if their class won't see much use in a campaign because of the focus and playstyle.
that is a really, really bad fighter vs Paladin example.
Let's take the AC first.
Assuming the paladin also has an 18 Dex, he buys Celestial Plate. He now gets the same dex bonus to AC that the Fighter does. The extra cost is like 9k. The difference in AC is now the Dodge Feat.
Your fighter, at level 12, has a base will save of +3. A first level cleric of non-evil alignment, assuming you are using the Wayfinder trick, has a 60% chance of saying "sleep" to you and successfully taking you out of the fight. I'm not sure of what offensive spells the paladin has, but that will save is going to lose you the fight.
The disarm shtick is worthless. There's this little thing called a locking gauntlet, or weapon cords, that allow recovery of your weapon as a move or swift action.
Furthermore, the paladin has his weapon weapon-bonded, so it's +3 higher then yours at level 12. You don't have that big an advantage trying to disarm him.
You don't get your bonuses to Disarm or Trip from Weapon training unless the weapon has the Trip or Disarm special abilities. So you're at -3 to -5 right there. Your ability to Trip can be completely undone if the Paladin quaffs a Potion of flying and simply engages you 1 foot off the ground.
Divine Favor is short term. Weapon Bond has a duration of a minute per level. The paladin can apply it to his bow. So, if you want to run around, he's going to fill you full of holes while you do so. Better yet, he might be mounted and you don't have a speed edge. Actually, you're not going to have a speed edge at all, because the paladin will simply shoot you if he can't reach you, and if he's got a potion of flying, or uses the flying power of his celestial armor, you can't really run away.
I mean, come on, you're assuming the paladin is a complete idiot, when you're the low will save class that has a PENALTY to his wis modifier!
==Aelryinth
...I'm not sure if you realize this Duderlybob, but a melee based character with 14 Str is not very good. Especially without Weapon Finesse.
You've got a good AC, yeah, but you've fallen into the "OMG Unhittable Monk! What do?" trap where the answer is "Well he's not really any sort of threat to the monster so..."
As well, the classes aren't supposed to fight each other. That defeats the purpose. Even assuming all your combat maneuvers succeed (not nearly a given vs another full BaB class), there are plenty of other CLASSES that can beat a Fighter in a fight, not least of which any given caster who makes sure they've got a good Initiative bonus.
Your speed is also not as big of an advantage as you make it out to be. If you're CONSTANTLY running away from your opponent, I at least would say the pursuit rules come into play so the Pally can track you down.
Or if not, he can just whip out a bow and start plinking you with that. Obviously he's not as good with a bow as he's likely to be with his weapon of choice, but he's good enough to make your life a living hell while you're busy running around not doing anything to him. At level 12 he can chuck three arrows your way per round, at least some of them are bound to hit. And as you said, a war of attrition is in a Paladin's favor.
|
Again, I would point out that it wasn't about builds, but about the class in general...and certainly not PVP...though that can give indicators.
My whole point was that most classes rely on temporary resources...the fighter does not. HP might be thought of as a temporary resource, but a well-built fighter doesn't lost too many to regular combat, as he's usually got to have a high AC, being the one that gets between the monsters and softer targets like the casters. No, that's not all fighters...the class is flexible enough to build what you want, as long as it's not a caster. :p
|
I've built a Dwarven armour master for my current campaign. At level 6 he has
Base AC 26, touch is 15.
DR 3/- when in heavy armour.
Saves are 8, 6, 6 but he gets + 3 on those vs spells and poisons ( I took blood of ancients trait from dwarves of Golarion to boost it)
Vital strike lets me move and deal decent damage.
Blind fight rocks, especially since its more than just a re roll now. It actually takes away a number of penalties that blindness gives.
He has flanking foil to disrupt those little buggers who try to gain advantage by surrounding him.
I've taken handle animal and plan to buy a combat trained Tiger (500 gold) from the animal archive player companion) for the next game. I'll even spend cash to get some gear for said beasty. It's attack is good, but mostly the scent is going to help find and fight invis critters.
Everything else gets taken care of by party members to be honest.
Our inquisitor matches me for AC but his staying power jus isn't there (less hp , no DR). His spells are great though, and when possible we fight beside each other since he has some shield teamwork feat that makes his AC even better.
Our Druid is our spell girl, and will work nicely to help buff my new tiger
Our monk is stealth girl, and has enough talent with diplomacy to acts our face.
My fighter does more than enough in our party. Not sure where I'll go with him next, I usually build as I go and as the campaign dictates, rather than pre build.
Cheers
|
|
I've built a Dwarven armour master for my current campaign. At level 6 he has
Base AC 26, touch is 15.
DR 3/- when in heavy armour.
Saves are 8, 6, 6 but he gets + 3 on those vs spells and poisons ( I took blood of ancients trait from dwarves of Golarion to boost it)
Vital strike lets me move and deal decent damage.
Blind fight rocks, especially since its more than just a re roll now. It actually takes away a number of penalties that blindness gives.
He has flanking foil to disrupt those little buggers who try to gain advantage by surrounding him.I've taken handle animal and plan to buy a combat trained Tiger (500 gold) from the animal archive player companion) for the next game. I'll even spend cash to get some gear for said beasty. It's attack is good, but mostly the scent is going to help find and fight invis critters.
Everything else gets taken care of by party members to be honest.
Our inquisitor matches me for AC but his staying power jus isn't there (less hp , no DR). His spells are great though, and when possible we fight beside each other since he has some shield teamwork feat that makes his AC even better.
Our Druid is our spell girl, and will work nicely to help buff my new tiger
Our monk is stealth girl, and has enough talent with diplomacy to acts our face.
My fighter does more than enough in our party. Not sure where I'll go with him next, I usually build as I go and as the campaign dictates, rather than pre build.
Cheers
Sounds good. That's a fighter fulfilling that classic role, and doing a great job of it.
To those who are responding to me, yes, I am aware of the flaws in my design. It was in large part, based on Wiggz design that left equipment out of the equation, and was made with what were fairly poor stats (his actual method I'm unsure of, but I simply redistributed to some degree using point buy type stats to guide it).
But to Aelryinth, I simply point out that I was specifically leaving out magic items and equipment to compare the classes on their merits with minimal input from equipment. Yes, you can avoid trip attacks by fly potions, but if we give the Paladin a bigger budget and more stuff, then we start having to do the same to the fighter and things will go completely out of control of counters to counters to counters to counters.
And while yes locked gauntlets or weapon cords can prevent disarming attempts, it locks the Paladin into a single mode of fighting, if in your example, the Paladin switches to a bow to just start peppering the fleeing Fighter with arrows, he has to spend at least one full round undoing either the gauntlet or the cord, sheath his sword, then draw his bow, then use his weapon bond, and then relock his gauntlet/retie his cord. That's three full rounds and a move action in which the Fighter can then choose to close the distance and either disarm the Paladin from his bow before he can lock himself back in place, or simply have the Paladin locked into melee combat with a bow, or has to spend another round of undoing himself from the bow to then put that away, draw his sword, relock, and then realize that he's inspired about 4 AaOs and the Fighter started running once he could do melee combat without worrying about disarm attempts. As for mounts, they can be killed much easier than PCs, so the Fighter doesn't need that much to regain his speed advantage in that case, unless it's a familiar, but then the Paladin wouldn't have his Weapon Bond, meaning the Fighter now has the edge in weapon combat, and basically just had one advantage traded for another.
To conclude, a Fighter starts with only one specialty, use weapons and armor better. Besides that a fighter can generalize or specialize basically as much as he wants, his class gives him a great deal of freedom that the other classes typically do not. That's the point I was trying to convey, more than the virtues of trip, etc.
They're only mandatory when a cool feat requires them.
I don't like stupid little +1 or +2 things, and avoid taking them as much as possible.
As always YMMV, but I consider this a game of numbers when you are building a character, and the numbers all add up.
Dudley, the problem is that you are ignoring gear, and we are assuming you have at least some.
You are FREE to take Celestial Plate. The problem is that it will have next to no benefit for you, because your class benefit does what the armor does, and you'd need a 22 Dex to profit...not impossible, mind you, but with a simple upgrade to mithral you now need a 26 dex to have a higher dex bonus then the paladin while in armor!
If you're staying at range, the paladin can feather you, move backwards, keep feathering you. I already pointed out that the paladin has a +3 bonus from weapon bond he can invoke at any time...and he's not in any way bound to one weapon. If he wants to draw a dagger, he can...or he can simply bash you with his shield in two hands. he might be wearing a mace. Unlike you, he isn't concentrated on any weapon.
Or he can choose to concentrate on closing to melee with you. You can't attack him and possibly stay out of his reach. Your choice is to run or engage, and if you engage, he's going to kill you.
And if he's got deadly juggernaut, as soon as you're in range, he's +5/+5 and your supremacy with your chosen weapon really starts to slide.
And if you want your weapon bonus to apply to your Trip and Disarm attacks, you need to be wielding a weapon with those keywords. Such weapons are immediately identifiable for their uses, and so your opponents might take steps against them.
You've got a character optimized for taking out NPC's and not monsters. If we do the OP's test and start matching you up with monsters every combat + 10 rounds, you're going to very quickly see the difference in staying power between you and the paladin.
Especially that will save.
==Aelryinth
I accept your challenge Wiggz! Though you certainly made a high bar to jump! Here's a Fighter build that may not beat your Paladin's build, but I feel can give him stiff competition in a regular ol' slugging match.
You understand that the challenge is not who would win in a head's up fight but rather who would last the longest if forced to endure a never-ending string of CR8 battles which would encompass a wide host of threats from humanoids with class levels, hordes of lower level foes, flying and spell-casting devils, demons and dragons, golems, elementals and so on...?
I think you'll find that in a great many of those battles, the very narrow focus of Disarm and Trip will end up being wasted feats. I also think that the first or second time you encounter someone who requires you to make a will save, you'll be up the creek. Any idea on what you're going to do against a flyer?
With that Dex and bow as his second weapon training group, he'll at least hit with a bow. He just won't be doing huge damage.
==Aelryinth
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
With the rules being cherrypicked to help the fighter all this would prove if the fighter did come out on top is that the fighter can be the most effective if the odds are stacked in his favor. That is not much to brag about, not that I think the fighter is going to come out on top. IJS.
|
|
I accept your challenge Wiggz! Though you certainly made a high bar to jump! Here's a Fighter build that may not beat your Paladin's build, but I feel can give him stiff competition in a regular ol' slugging match.You understand that the challenge is not who would win in a head's up fight but rather who would last the longest if forced to endure a never-ending string of CR8 battles which would encompass a wide host of threats from humanoids with class levels, hordes of lower level foes, flying and spell-casting devils, demons and dragons, golems, elementals and so on...?
I think you'll find that in a great many of those battles, the very narrow focus of Disarm and Trip will end up being wasted feats. I also think that the first or second time you encounter someone who requires you to make a will save, you'll be up the creek. Any idea on what you're going to do against a flyer?
Well...up to CR8. Yeah, with multiples of some lower levels...all within a reasonable encounter range, total...just none over CR 8. It was meant to be more of an endurance test than a big 1:1, after all. :)
I had originally even thought to make it CR 6...where the fighter would fare even better...but that just didn't seem right...know what I mean? :)
|
|
You know, every class is gear dependent. Most of them are just less gear dependant than most.
Take away the spell book and component pouch of a wizard and he sucks at everything, except maybe whining.
Take the holy symbol off a cleric and he can't do much either.
However, that's just ridiculous.
Fighters have weaknesses. They mitigate those with feats or gear. The strength of the fighter is its flexibility in the build and roll in any party.
You don't have to defeat all your weaknesses. You only need to build to minimise the weaknesses the party can't cover.
If we have a cleric in the party, our fighters rarely take iron will. They just buy a wand of prot from evil and get the cleric to cast when needed.
When arcanists are around, they don't need the flying items, cos usually the caster has worked out that the most effective way of dealing with flying threats is turn the heavily armoured melee wielder of death into a more scary threat.
Invisible foes, make them visible.
However, if there aren't people in the party to do these things, then the fighter can build to minimise for them.
Fighters are the most flexible build for parties out there, out of all combat classes at least.
Wrath, I think you will find a great deal of disagreement to that idea.
Barbarian rage powers are considerably stronger and more versatile then any feat a fighter gets. The most common feat for Barbs is 'extra rage power'.
Rangers get spells and lots of skill points. And spells. Nothing says versatility like spells.
If fighter feats were stronger, OR they could swap some out on demand, you'd have a good defense.
==Aelryinth
|
|
You know, every class is gear dependent. Most of them are just less gear dependant than most.
Take away the spell book and component pouch of a wizard and he sucks at everything, except maybe whining.
Take the holy symbol off a cleric and he can't do much either.
However, that's just ridiculous.
Fighters have weaknesses. They mitigate those with feats or gear. The strength of the fighter is its flexibility in the build and roll in any party.
You don't have to defeat all your weaknesses. You only need to build to minimise the weaknesses the party can't cover.
If we have a cleric in the party, our fighters rarely take iron will. They just buy a wand of prot from evil and get the cleric to cast when needed.
When arcanists are around, they don't need the flying items, cos usually the caster has worked out that the most effective way of dealing with flying threats is turn the heavily armoured melee wielder of death into a more scary threat.
Invisible foes, make them visible.
However, if there aren't people in the party to do these things, then the fighter can build to minimise for them.
Fighters are the most flexible build for parties out there, out of all combat classes at least.
Agreed. My original concept was to have level appropriate magic items...nothing too crazy...but a good fighter...even one that's not specialized...can do just fine in masterwork...and not horribly if he has to go the full Don Quixote route. :)
|
|
Wrath, I think you will find a great deal of disagreement to that idea.
Barbarian rage powers are considerably stronger and more versatile then any feat a fighter gets. The most common feat for Barbs is 'extra rage power'.
Rangers get spells and lots of skill points. And spells. Nothing says versatility like spells.
If fighter feats were stronger, OR they could swap some out on demand, you'd have a good defense.
==Aelryinth
Those rage powers go away pretty quick, though. Don't get me wrong...I like barbs just fine...but an average day's worth of combat in a good group is more than most barbs can rage throughout...and some of those abilities are very limited in uses.
Rangers are sweet, too...but again, they rely on specialization that is encounter meaningful, and those spells can go quickly. Nothing is sadder than a dead animal companion when nobody can resurrect it.
The fighter's versatility comes from being able to dip into several fighting styles, and even master a couple. Nobody else can do that.
Those rage powers go away pretty quick, though. Don't get me wrong...I like barbs just fine...but an average day's worth of combat in a good group is more than most barbs can rage throughout...and some of those abilities are very limited in uses.
At level 12 its 4+2x11+Con, which is at least 26 rounds. Your far from running out, unless you fight a crazy number of encounters per day or combat gets dragged on. That's my opinion anyway.
|
|
Those rage powers go away pretty quick, though. Don't get me wrong...I like barbs just fine...but an average day's worth of combat in a good group is more than most barbs can rage throughout...and some of those abilities are very limited in uses.At level 12 its 4+2x11+Con, which is at least 26 rounds. Your far from running out, unless you fight a crazy number of encounters per day or combat gets dragged on. That's my opinion anyway.
I've seen 5-6 encounters plenty of times...and yes, they can drag out...most are only 3-4 rounds...some are quick...but I've seen plenty last 10 or 12...and then the night encounters hit. :p
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Those rage powers go away pretty quick, though. Don't get me wrong...I like barbs just fine...but an average day's worth of combat in a good group is more than most barbs can rage throughout...and some of those abilities are very limited in uses.At level 12 its 4+2x11+Con, which is at least 26 rounds. Your far from running out, unless you fight a crazy number of encounters per day or combat gets dragged on. That's my opinion anyway.
The entire point of the thread is a theoretical never-ending series of encounters. Its a test of endurance. The OP believes that the Fighter is best equipped to survive th elongest because he doesn't depend on limited resources like spells, rounds of rage, etc. The error in that calculation is that it only holds true when your foes don't fight back because Fighters have no inherent way to recover the most precious resource of all - hit points.
It's also erroneous from the standpoint that if you can kill the first few encounters so you take next to no damage, you're ahead of the curve and can tank the rest while the fighter takes his share faster then you do.
Barbs are especially good with this with the ability to Pounce. A lucky crit on a charge and full attack can end a fight before the barb takes any damage at all. And then with Come and Get Me, he can get another Full Attack at full BAB on the enemy's turn! The enemy will be lucky to live to the second round.
==Aelryinth
Animal beat drums, Fighter beat kobolds!
See that? Yeah, this is why we need caster-martial disparity. Otherwise these over-muscled thugs will never get their comeuppance.
Was just saying they don't run out really quickly, but I suppose that's relative. The fighter has a resource of course, that being his health. Does he heal to full after every combat?
A level 12 barbarian can take out many CR 8 encounters without raging, any if they are solo monsters they may not survive one full round attack when he is raging. It should theoretically be possible to ration rage rounds if needed since there are 2d6 rounds between encounters.
|
|
The entire point of the thread is a theoretical never-ending series of encounters. Its a test of endurance. The OP believes that the Fighter is best equipped to survive th elongest because he doesn't depend on limited resources like spells, rounds of rage, etc. The error in that calculation is that it only holds true when your foes don't fight back because Fighters have no inherent way to recover the most precious resource of all - hit points.Those rage powers go away pretty quick, though. Don't get me wrong...I like barbs just fine...but an average day's worth of combat in a good group is more than most barbs can rage throughout...and some of those abilities are very limited in uses.At level 12 its 4+2x11+Con, which is at least 26 rounds. Your far from running out, unless you fight a crazy number of encounters per day or combat gets dragged on. That's my opinion anyway.
Well...with the appropriate gear for the level, he won't be hit often, if built with one of his primary jobs in mind...and he actually won't pull saves as terrible as most think. With no magic, the one I was fiddling with last night had +10/+7/+7.
Here is a pretty standard barbarian build, 20 points, 108k in gold:
Str 20 (24), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, CHa 7
Racial Abilities: Skilled, Focused Study
Feats: Dodge, Skill Focus (Perception), Shield Focus, Power Attack, Extra Rage Power x2, Skill Focus (Survival), Dazing Assault
Rage Powers: Lesser Beast Totem, Superstition, Beast Totem, Ghost Rager, Reckless Abandon, Scent, Greater Beast Totem, Come and Get me
Traits: Illminator, Armor Expert
Skills: 12 ranks each: Acrobatics +18, Diplomacy +16, Perception +24, Survival +24 / 6 ranks each: Climb (+16), Swim (+16) / 4 ranks each: Heal +6, Knowledge (Nature) +9 / 1 rank each: Ride +6, Handle Animal +2, Knowledge (Local) +2, Knowledge (Religion) +2
Equipment: Mythril Breastplate +4, Heavy Shield +3, Longsword +3, ring of protection +2, amulet of nat armor +2, belt of mighty strength +4, cloak of resistance +4, boots of striding and leaping, adaptive longbow +1, remaining gold in expendables (potions of flying, enlarge person, cure wounds, alchemist fire, etc.)
So when not raging, IR Barbarian has an AC of 33 (with a DR 6/-, DR 12/- vs non-lethal, and 4 fire resistance), a move of 50', is +22/+17/+12 to hit doing 1d8+10 damage. He can boost that for -4 to hit, +8 damage with power attack, or take a -5 to hit to daze an opponent on a DC 22 vs. fort. His saves are +14 Fort, +10 Ref, +10 Will. He also can attack with the longbow for +15 to hit, 1d8+8 damage. He can drop the shield, taking a -6 to AC to gain a +3 bonus to damage, plus another +4 with power attack. He can do his all day. Not quite as good as a fighter, but for most CR 8 opponents, good enough.
But, what if he faces something nastier, with bad supernatural abilities, is intagible, or just plain hard to kill? IR Barbarian takes a couple of his 28 rounds of raging, and now his AC jumps to 35, he gets +3/+3 with the sword (+5 damage without the shield), He gains +3 to will saves, fort saves and an additonal +8 to all saves vs magic, gains 36 temporary hit points, can attack intangible foes (and gains +8 to his touch AC), and can take a -4 AC to get +4 to hit. Or take a -4 AC to get an attack of opportunity against anyone who attacks him. And he gains scent vs. invisible foes.
He also has better skill poits than a fighter, and can afford to drop points into skills he might only occasionally need. The only class skills a fighter has that a barbarian doesn't is Profession, Knowledge (Engineering) and Knowledge (Dungeoneering). Barbarian has Acrobatics, Perception and Knowledge (Nature). Winner: Barbarian.
It's pretty easy to get to 40 on a sword and board fighter at 12. Truth is though, for CR 8 critters a 33 is probably enough for most cases.
A level 12 barbarian can take out many CR 8 encounters without raging, any if they are solo monsters they may not survive one full round attack when he is raging. It should theoretically be possible to ration rage rounds if needed since there are 2d6 rounds between encounters.He'd have to.
That is ok, because it can...
Now 2d6 average out to 7 rounds between fights so the barbarian can rage for 1 or 2 rounds if needed and not be fatigued for the next fight. With his higher saves he is more likely to last longer than the fighter.
A level 12 barbarian can take out many CR 8 encounters without raging, any if they are solo monsters they may not survive one full round attack when he is raging. It should theoretically be possible to ration rage rounds if needed since there are 2d6 rounds between encounters.He'd have to.That is ok, because it can...
Now 2d6 average out to 7 rounds between fights so the barbarian can rage for 1 or 2 rounds if needed and not be fatigued for the next fight. With his higher saves he is more likely to last longer than the fighter.
It's lucky the CR is only 8 oh masterful lord else they could come full force into your omnipotent wrath.
It's lucky the CR is only 8 oh masterful lord else they could come full force into your omnipotent wrath.A level 12 barbarian can take out many CR 8 encounters without raging, any if they are solo monsters they may not survive one full round attack when he is raging. It should theoretically be possible to ration rage rounds if needed since there are 2d6 rounds between encounters.He'd have to.That is ok, because it can...
Now 2d6 average out to 7 rounds between fights so the barbarian can rage for 1 or 2 rounds if needed and not be fatigued for the next fight. With his higher saves he is more likely to last longer than the fighter.
I was going to say that!
There is Wraithstrike Minion #2. It is good to see you around.
I was going to say that!It's lucky the CR is only 8 oh masterful lord else they could come full force into your omnipotent wrath.A level 12 barbarian can take out many CR 8 encounters without raging, any if they are solo monsters they may not survive one full round attack when he is raging. It should theoretically be possible to ration rage rounds if needed since there are 2d6 rounds between encounters.He'd have to.That is ok, because it can...
Now 2d6 average out to 7 rounds between fights so the barbarian can rage for 1 or 2 rounds if needed and not be fatigued for the next fight. With his higher saves he is more likely to last longer than the fighter.
Do not seek to steal the glorious praise of the master of the many burning eyes b
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There are plenty who like to stroke their own ego.
It takes a "special" type of person to do the self-stroking in public... O_o
There's nothing wrong with fighters. Fighter's are a good class and can do a lot of cool things. They are good at killing things and with the feats they get, you can skin them a lot of different ways. The problem is when people compare them other classes. There are classes that do things better than fighters. And if someone does something that a fighter does, all the fighter fanboys freak out and complain that it somehow makes their class weaker. Mind you, they can still kill everything they did before, their feats are still awesome and they are incredibly customizeable, but they have to be the only ones who kill things, or at least "should be the best at it" for whatever reason.
I really like my fighters. They have cool backstories, great histories we've built, and just because some summoner's minion can also tank, or because a wizard at my same level past level 10 could probably kill me, that doesn't mean my fighter suddenly sucks and isn't cool or good at killing things anymore. I don't need my class to be the "best" at anything. Nobody wins anything for being the "best" at killing or whatever.
Pathfinder is more than just combat. If combat is all you're playing it for and you want perfect balance, you can play 4E. It's perfectly balanced and there is no difference between the classes especially after level 9. It also feels like everyone is the same and I find it boring compared to Pathfinder. Pathfinder is supposed to have a significant part of the game outside of character - roleplaying. And if you build your characters around personality and involve yourself in the story - and choose your feats and skills well - you can have an awesome character who is a fighter who will always kill things very well.
There are plenty who like to stroke their own ego.
It takes a "special" type of person to do the self-stroking in public... O_o
Jealousy will get you nowhere SotS.
I accept your challenge Wiggz! Though you certainly made a high bar to jump! Here's a Fighter build that may not beat your Paladin's build, but I feel can give him stiff competition in a regular ol' slugging match.
Human 12th level Fighter
Attributes:
STR 14
DEX 18 (+2 Racial Bonus, +1 at 8th, and 12th)
CON 14
INT 13 (+1 at 4th)
WIS 8
CHA 8Feats:
1st - Fleet
1st - Dodge
1st - Combat Reflexes
2nd - Pin Down
3rd - Stand Still
4th - Toughness
5th - Combat Expertise
6th - Improved Disarm
7th - Improved Trip
8th - Greater Trip
9th - Shield Focus
10th - Greater Disarm
11th - Greater Shield Focus
12th - Agile ManeuversSpecial Abilities
Weapon Training 2
Armor Training 3
Bravery +3Now, I'm guessing the general idea is apparent from his Feat list, and I am going to assume some basic equipment just because a fighter without equipment is like Batman without his toolbelt. Yes, this is a weakness of the fighter, but unless you have a truly sadistic GM, you're not going to be stranded without any form of equipment and also be thrown through a gauntlet of the proposed proportions by yourself.
So the first real benefit of the Fighter is that their ability to use armor well far outstripes that of the given Paladin build.
If we assume (with no enchantments) that both Fighter and Paladin are equipped with basic Full-Plate and a Heavy Shield, the Paladin will have an AC of 22 (10+9 Armor+2 Shield+1 Dex [Capped lower for armor]).
The fighter with the same equipment will have an AC of 28 (10+9 Armor+4 Shield+4 Dex [Not capped due to Armor Training 3]+1 Dodge Feat).
Also, the Fighter doesn't have any natural healing ability true, but his huge list of feats allows him to take Toughness, meaning that he also edges out in HP (Avg HP of Fighter = 96, avg HP of Paladin = 84).
So, the Fighter doesn't really have greater endurance than the Paladin due to his Lay on Hands, but the extra six armor class and 12 HP makes him a solid wall to be sure.
At this point, we can start to look...
You can make a fighter that can defeat a non-smiting paladin? Bravo. Now try making something really hard. Like an evocation wizard capable of casting fireball or a bard with good bluff.
The challenge, if you had bothered to read the first post, is to beat a bunch of CR8 encounters.Lets see how your fighter measures up against some encunters form the bestiry 1, shall we:
Aboleth(CR7)
First round straight off the gate? Dominate monster, DC22.
Lets give you both a +3 cloak of resistance because DCs are calculated with some WBL in mind.
You have a will of +6 and need to roll a 16 to escape
Wiggz paladin has +12 and needs to roll a 10
The aboleth can't be tripped or disarmed, but it is Evil so it can be smited(smiten?) if the pally really needs.
It only has AC20 and +10 to attack so either could kill him easy.
The good bet lays on the fighter not going past the first round.
Behir(CR8)
Again, can't be disarmed or triped. But it can't be smited(smote?) either. AC21 is still easily hittable for any full BAB. +15 to attack for 2d6+9 damage and grab. Still not enough to easily hit anyone using magical heavy armor, bt if he does hit... This is where the Paladins healing will start to pay off.
Black Pudding(CR7)
+8 attack and ac 3. A cake walk except that he damages weapons. if both get your weapons damaged, One of you loses two points of to hit and damage for losing his amin weapon and the other can turn another weapon or even a random tree branch into a +3 weapon for several encounters. Guess wich one is the fighter.
Bullete(CR7)
Good attacks at +13 and +12 but only AC22, it can still take at least one hit every round from any full BAB. Can't be disarmed and has CMD32 aganist trip, good luck with that. Neutral, so non smitable. A purely phisical monster, the fighter finally comes ahead.
Chimera(CR7)
Lots of good melee but again not much AC. Also has a breath weapon, but both of you have the same Ref, so it's a wash. Can't be disarmed but it might be triped if it doesn't decide to fly. Can be smited(I'm going with this). Unless the AC difference is really big between the pally and the fighter (Probably isn't if both have magic itens), the paladin will come out ahead with Lay on Hands.
Chuul(CR7)
22AC again. CR7-8 is way to easy to it for 12th level characters. +14 to hit and 2d6+7 damage plus grab can be a good attack. Can' be disarmed, CMD32 to trip, can be smited.
And then I stop because we reached the Ds. Demons (Babau CR8 and Succubus CR7), Devils (Erinye CR8), young Dragons (Black CR7 Green CR8) and Dinosaurs (Stegosaurus CR7 Elasmosaurs CR7 and Triceratops CR8). The first three are smitable and have a variety of ways to target the fighter Will, including a bunch that don't even affect the paladin, including fear. The fighter can be resistant against fear but it barely brings his will to the same number as the paladin and the pally is outright immune to it. The dinos are more favorable to the fighter at first glance, but they have good attack and awesome damage. Any attack that they hit brings the fighter closer to death and the paladin has to spend a couple Lay on Hands. By the time the paladin is out of LoH the fighter is down to his last HP, and the premise that the fighter can last longer than anybody else comes crashing down on it's ear.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Aaaand with the "denial of the relevance of imbalance via appeal to fourth edition DND" I've filled out my Fighter Thread Bingo card! Whoo!
Aaaand with the "denial of the relevance of imbalance via appeal to fourth edition DND" I've filled out my Fighter Thread Bingo card! Whoo!
Just wish to point out that I inb4'd that nonsense back on page 1.
Sometimes I hate being right.
Aaaand with the "denial of the relevance of imbalance via appeal to fourth edition DND" I've filled out my Fighter Thread Bingo card! Whoo!
AW MAN. I was so close, I just needed "The fighter can do great out of combat... If you put all your skill points, traits and a bunch of feats in two skills he does about half as well as a barbarian! That is good right?"