I just needed " Martials are better than mages if the mages just stand still and cast evocations". Better luck next time.
There's nothing wrong with fighters. Fighter's are a good class and can do a lot of cool things. They are good at killing things and with the feats they get, you can skin them a lot of different ways. The problem is when people compare them other classes. There are classes that do things better than fighters. And if someone does something that a fighter does, all the fighter fanboys freak out and complain that it somehow makes their class weaker. Mind you, they can still kill everything they did before, their feats are still awesome and they are incredibly customizeable, but they have to be the only ones who kill things, or at least "should be the best at it" for whatever reason.
I really like my fighters. They have cool backstories, great histories we've built, and just because some summoner's minion can also tank, or because a wizard at my same level past level 10 could probably kill me, that doesn't mean my fighter suddenly sucks and isn't cool or good at killing things anymore. I don't need my class to be the "best" at anything. Nobody wins anything for being the "best" at killing or whatever.
Pathfinder is more than just combat. If combat is all you're playing it for and you want perfect balance, you can play 4E. It's perfectly balanced and there is no difference between the classes especially after level 9. It also feels like everyone is the same and I find it boring compared to Pathfinder. Pathfinder is supposed to have a significant part of the game outside of character - roleplaying. And if you build your characters around personality and involve yourself in the story - and choose your feats and skills well - you can have an awesome character who is a fighter who will always kill things very well.
I feel like responding to this.
Depends on how you define wrong. I can make a commoner with a cool backstory, great history, and who is readily outdone by other classes. I can still kill some stuff too! I can totally role play him and have fun. I can play a sorcerer and argue that my friends wizard does things differently, sometimes better and sometimes worse, and I don't feel invalidated, nor does he. Doesn't change the fact their might be a few problems or that there are problems.
4E isn't perfectly balanced, and if pathfinder is more than just combat why isn't the fighter given tools to work outside of combat? Is his job supposed to be to twiddle his thumbs and wait on the next combat or something? Worse, that logic leads to an idea that its okay for it not to be balanced because you can turn your head the other way and ignore it. Sometimes making life easier or the game a little more balanced is a few small numbers, that won't break it and make it an uninteresting pile of sameness.
I think it is ok to not be balanced. That's the whole point of having a party. You're supposed to work together. Not all characters should be able help in all situations.
I think it is ok to not be balanced. That's the whole point of having a party. You're supposed to work together. Not all characters should be able help in all situations.
Balance and how the party meshes are two different things. Regardless, a game where you have to have a rogue and cleric is lame because it doesn't give you the freedom of choice and it forces them into the roles, and if you don't have someone who wants them they you have to make someone not be happy.
A good DM can create opportunities and scenes for every player to flourish and showcase their abilities.
I just don't understand some of the comments people make about fighters. "I just twiddle my thumbs out of combat since I can't do anything." So when there are important NPC's and you need information, you don't ask any questions? You don't interact with the other characters? No solutions to puzzle rooms? No sharp dialogue with evil wizard? You literally just sit around and wait for combat to begin? Your character is still a person. Even if battle being a character's one true love is part of his character concept, that doesn't meant they don't have other interests, hobbies, etc. And it doesn't mean they don't have opinions on the going-on's in the world.
I like combat in RPG's, but it's probably 30% of our games and not as fun as the role playing part.
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A good DM can create opportunities and scenes for every player to flourish and showcase their abilities.
I just don't understand some of the comments people make about fighters. "I just twiddle my thumbs out of combat since I can't do anything." So when there are important NPC's and you need information, you don't ask any questions? You don't interact with the other characters? No solutions to puzzle rooms? No sharp dialogue with evil wizard? You literally just sit around and wait for combat to begin? Your character is still a person. Even if battle being a character's one true love is part of his character concept, that doesn't meant they don't have other interests, hobbies, etc. And it doesn't mean they don't have opinions on the going-on's in the world.
I like combat in RPG's, but it's probably 30% of our games and not as fun as the role playing part.
I find it stunning, but I've been led to believe by some that they think a diplomacy roll is needed when a fighter asks someone for information...and they're apparently too stupid to have the understanding of who to ask, anyhow.
I find it stunning, but I've been led to believe by some that they think a diplomacy roll is needed when a fighter asks someone for information...and they're apparently too stupid to have the understanding of who to ask, anyhow.A good DM can create opportunities and scenes for every player to flourish and showcase their abilities.
I just don't understand some of the comments people make about fighters. "I just twiddle my thumbs out of combat since I can't do anything." So when there are important NPC's and you need information, you don't ask any questions? You don't interact with the other characters? No solutions to puzzle rooms? No sharp dialogue with evil wizard? You literally just sit around and wait for combat to begin? Your character is still a person. Even if battle being a character's one true love is part of his character concept, that doesn't meant they don't have other interests, hobbies, etc. And it doesn't mean they don't have opinions on the going-on's in the world.
I like combat in RPG's, but it's probably 30% of our games and not as fun as the role playing part.
Yeah. Someone posted in another thread their DM makes them roll anytime they talk to anyone about anything.
"Hello"
"Roll Diplomacy"
"I got a six"
"He hates you."
}:(
A am sitting in a bar, and a 6'7" biker walks in becked in chains and leathers (equivalent of fighter in his armor and all his weapons). Am I even vaguely willing to strike up a conversation with him? Hell no. He might rip my head off if I say the wrong thing.
Don't expect your fighter to do the gather information type of job.
Now, he could certainly scare the piss out of people, but that won't necessarily get the information you want (though it may as well, upon DM discretion). That might also attract the town guard who will frown on some large thug scaring the citizenry.
You see the problem is Coarthios (and it has been beaten to death ad nauseum here), is that there is a wide gulf between being able to do something, and being at all good at it. This is what the stats exist on your character sheet. A fighter gets 2 skill points per level, and a lot of the class skills are tied up into the physical realm. If they want to interact with people, they are only good at scaring them(by default). They can certainly be craftsmen and professionals, and their off time can be consumed with that just fine. However not everyone wants an in depth description of beating that glowing rod of iron on the anvil until the impurities are broken out, and then the repeated heat treatments and cold work stages applied to make a good blade.
When you want to do much more well, you need to jump through hoops to get anywhere. That is the mechanical problem with fighters (oh, and their saves suck, which also needs to be addressed). Fighting, they are just peachy.
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I find it stunning, but I've been led to believe by some that they think a diplomacy roll is needed when a fighter asks someone for information...and they're apparently too stupid to have the understanding of who to ask, anyhow.A good DM can create opportunities and scenes for every player to flourish and showcase their abilities.
I just don't understand some of the comments people make about fighters. "I just twiddle my thumbs out of combat since I can't do anything." So when there are important NPC's and you need information, you don't ask any questions? You don't interact with the other characters? No solutions to puzzle rooms? No sharp dialogue with evil wizard? You literally just sit around and wait for combat to begin? Your character is still a person. Even if battle being a character's one true love is part of his character concept, that doesn't meant they don't have other interests, hobbies, etc. And it doesn't mean they don't have opinions on the going-on's in the world.
I like combat in RPG's, but it's probably 30% of our games and not as fun as the role playing part.
Yeah. Someone posted in another thread their DM makes them roll anytime they talk to anyone about anything.
"Hello"
"Roll Diplomacy"
"I got a six"
"He hates you."
}:(
It leads to such excellent rollplay. :(
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A am sitting in a bar, and a 6'7" biker walks in becked in chains and leathers (equivalent of fighter in his armor and all his weapons). Am I even vaguely willing to strike up a conversation with him? Hell no. He might rip my head off if I say the wrong thing.
Don't expect your fighter to do the gather information type of job.
Now, he could certainly scare the piss out of people, but that won't necessarily get the information you want (though it may as well, upon DM discretion). That might also attract the town guard who will frown on some large thug scaring the citizenry.
You see the problem is Coarthios (and it has been beaten to death ad nauseum here), is that there is a wide gulf between being able to do something, and being at all good at it. This is what the stats exist on your character sheet. A fighter gets 2 skill points per level, and a lot of the class skills are tied up into the physical realm. If they want to interact with people, they are only good at scaring them(by default). They can certainly be craftsmen and professionals, and their off time can be consumed with that just fine. However not everyone wants an in depth description of beating that glowing rod of iron on the anvil until the impurities are broken out, and then the repeated heat treatments and cold work stages applied to make a good blade.
When you want to do much more well, you need to jump through hoops to get anywhere. That is the mechanical problem with fighters (oh, and their saves suck, which also needs to be addressed). Fighting, they are just peachy.
And if the 6'7" biker walks over and with a decent tone of voice, and friendly smile, asks you how life's been treating you...and if you know anything about where he might find some work...or where in town serves the best beer...
Do you clam up...or run away? Really?
I dunno. Maybe it's just because I've known bikers all my life...but you know...they're people. In a fantasy setting...so are fighters...and some are even neutral good.
A good DM can create opportunities and scenes for every player to flourish and showcase their abilities.
I just don't understand some of the comments people make about fighters. "I just twiddle my thumbs out of combat since I can't do anything." So when there are important NPC's and you need information, you don't ask any questions? You don't interact with the other characters? No solutions to puzzle rooms? No sharp dialogue with evil wizard? You literally just sit around and wait for combat to begin? Your character is still a person. Even if battle being a character's one true love is part of his character concept, that doesn't meant they don't have other interests, hobbies, etc. And it doesn't mean they don't have opinions on the going-on's in the world.
I like combat in RPG's, but it's probably 30% of our games and not as fun as the role playing part.
You can roleplay. Of course you can. But if you expect an NPC to give you information you need Diplomacy. If you want them to believe a lie you need Bluff. If you want your fighter to know things about the setting that you as the player knows, you need Knowledge. If you want to earn money you need Profession. If you want to sharpen your sword and fix your armor you need Craft.
The fighter just doesn't have enough skill points to do much of anything. The only other classes with so little skill points are either int based(so they gain lots of extra skill points as a bonus for making themselves bteer at their jobs), full casters(who have spells to do studff out of combat), and the paladin (who has some spells, lay on hands and enugh charisma that he can be a great party face despie only having one maxed skill)And The fighter doesn't get any mechanical benefit from increasing his mental attributes. A ranger gets great perception and survival as bonus from increasing his spellcasting. The paladin gets to be better at diplomacy and intimidation everytime he makes his smite AC and Attack better. The barbarian can put points in charisma and get some rage powers to make intimidate really great in combat. Every point a fighter puts into int or cha is a point that makes him less good at his main job.
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A good DM can create opportunities and scenes for every player to flourish and showcase their abilities.
I just don't understand some of the comments people make about fighters. "I just twiddle my thumbs out of combat since I can't do anything." So when there are important NPC's and you need information, you don't ask any questions? You don't interact with the other characters? No solutions to puzzle rooms? No sharp dialogue with evil wizard? You literally just sit around and wait for combat to begin? Your character is still a person. Even if battle being a character's one true love is part of his character concept, that doesn't meant they don't have other interests, hobbies, etc. And it doesn't mean they don't have opinions on the going-on's in the world.
I like combat in RPG's, but it's probably 30% of our games and not as fun as the role playing part.
You can roleplay. Of course you can. But if you expect an NPC to give you information you need Diplomacy. If you want them to believe a lie you need Bluff. If you want your fighter to know things about the setting that you as the player knows, you need Knowledge. If you want to earn money you need Profession. If you want to sharpen your sword and fix your armor you need Craft.
The fighter just doesn't have enough skill points to do much of anything. The only other classes with so little skill points are either int based(so they gain lots of extra skill points as a bonus for making themselves bteer at their jobs), full casters(who have spells to do studff out of combat), and the paladin (who has some spells, lay on hands and enugh charisma that he can be a great party face despie only having one maxed skill)
And The fighter doesn't get any mechanical benefit from increasing his mental attributes. A ranger gets great perception and survival as bonus from increasing his spellcasting. The paladin gets to be better at diplomacy and intimidation everytime he makes his smite AC and Attack better. The barbarian can put points in...
Seriously?
I walk over to...who knows, the shopkeeper on the street...and ask, "Where can a dusty traveler get a good ale in this town?", and I need to roll diplomacy?
Remind me to stay away from your table.
A am sitting in a bar, and a 6'7" biker walks in becked in chains and leathers (equivalent of fighter in his armor and all his weapons). Am I even vaguely willing to strike up a conversation with him? Hell no. He might rip my head off if I say the wrong thing.
Don't expect your fighter to do the gather information type of job.
Now, he could certainly scare the piss out of people, but that won't necessarily get the information you want (though it may as well, upon DM discretion). That might also attract the town guard who will frown on some large thug scaring the citizenry.
You see the problem is Coarthios (and it has been beaten to death ad nauseum here), is that there is a wide gulf between being able to do something, and being at all good at it. This is what the stats exist on your character sheet. A fighter gets 2 skill points per level, and a lot of the class skills are tied up into the physical realm. If they want to interact with people, they are only good at scaring them(by default). They can certainly be craftsmen and professionals, and their off time can be consumed with that just fine. However not everyone wants an in depth description of beating that glowing rod of iron on the anvil until the impurities are broken out, and then the repeated heat treatments and cold work stages applied to make a good blade.
When you want to do much more well, you need to jump through hoops to get anywhere. That is the mechanical problem with fighters (oh, and their saves suck, which also needs to be addressed). Fighting, they are just peachy.
And if the 6'7" biker walks over and with a decent tone of voice, and friendly smile, asks you how life's been treating you...and if you know anything about where he might find some work...or where in town serves the best beer...
Do you clam up...or run away? Really?
I dunno. Maybe it's just because I've known bikers all my life...but you know...they're people. In a fantasy setting...so are fighters...and some are even neutral good.
Oh hey, he has ranks in Diplomacy. And probably Ride for the bike. Too bad he can't be really intimidating anymore now, or keep a regular job, or make even basic fixes to his bike, or lie well, or notice when someone lies to him. Or if he has ranks in all of that he spread them thin enough that anything challenging comes his way his only resort is violence.
Now if he was a Cavalier he would have enough skill points to do a lot more and be actualy proficient at all those things. And he would have a much more badass bike too.
[
And if the 6'7" biker walks over and with a decent tone of voice, and friendly smile, asks you how life's been treating you...and if you know anything about where he might find some work...or where in town serves the best beer...
Do you clam up...or run away? Really?
I dunno. Maybe it's just because I've known bikers all my life...but you know...they're people. In a fantasy setting...so are fighters...and some are even...
Then pick some group of people that would generically intimidate you.
I know this is a fantasy setting which caters to a lot of modern tropes, but people will be people, and Joe Shopkeep or Farmer has probably never been more than a few miles away from their village (compare wages to the costs of fast transportation in the era, and you can simply write off trips for anyone short of nobility or adventurers who make a living of killing and looting rich creatures and places). People in such settings are generally cautious and insular. In a world where that big, bad, scared, walking tank could very well shred the town guard, you will make sure you answer every question in a matter which is least likely to offend. Since you have no idea of what might offend, you will convey as little information as possible. Say you decide to share the story of the local evil witch that cooked children into stew and how a group of adventurers took her head and the town was relieved. What if this happens to be her nephew and he goes on a rampage? I wouldn't take the chance. Now if the guy just asked for a good place for ale, sure I might well answer that (though I might make myself scarce afterwards in case he didn't like the ale).
You really have to think about this mindset in the real world, and then magnify the nature of the threat at hand. If we're talking some guy who can walk into town, and if he flips, could wreck the whole place including all of the local police, I would be walking on eggshells around him. This is not a situation found in the real world.
Heck, even in today's world people are generally fairly reticent with strangers. While social setting do exist to offset this, they are not the rule.
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...A am sitting in a bar, and a 6'7" biker walks in becked in chains and leathers (equivalent of fighter in his armor and all his weapons). Am I even vaguely willing to strike up a conversation with him? Hell no. He might rip my head off if I say the wrong thing.
Don't expect your fighter to do the gather information type of job.
Now, he could certainly scare the piss out of people, but that won't necessarily get the information you want (though it may as well, upon DM discretion). That might also attract the town guard who will frown on some large thug scaring the citizenry.
You see the problem is Coarthios (and it has been beaten to death ad nauseum here), is that there is a wide gulf between being able to do something, and being at all good at it. This is what the stats exist on your character sheet. A fighter gets 2 skill points per level, and a lot of the class skills are tied up into the physical realm. If they want to interact with people, they are only good at scaring them(by default). They can certainly be craftsmen and professionals, and their off time can be consumed with that just fine. However not everyone wants an in depth description of beating that glowing rod of iron on the anvil until the impurities are broken out, and then the repeated heat treatments and cold work stages applied to make a good blade.
When you want to do much more well, you need to jump through hoops to get anywhere. That is the mechanical problem with fighters (oh, and their saves suck, which also needs to be addressed). Fighting, they are just peachy.
And if the 6'7" biker walks over and with a decent tone of voice, and friendly smile, asks you how life's been treating you...and if you know anything about where he might find some work...or where in town serves the best beer...
Do you clam up...or run away? Really?
I dunno. Maybe it's just because I've known bikers all my life...but you know...they're people. In a fantasy setting...so are
No...he doesn't have ranks in diplomacy...EVERYBODY can do that.
A short story, but true - when I worked in the 'Quarter, in a shop on Bourbon, when Harley Davidson had their convention in town, we were beset upon by huge numbers of bikers...a lot of them big guys...and there was less trouble...and more profits than any other time while I was there.
My father rode a Harley for years...when he worked at TI, as a top level technician and manager. He wore a leather jacket and 'do rag over his shirt and tie. He's a big man. He blows at diplomacy...and still, he talks to people like people do, every day.
Strange how that works.
Seriously?
I walk over to...who knows, the shopkeeper on the street...and ask, "Where can a dusty traveler get a good ale in this town?", and I need to roll diplomacy?
Remind me to stay away from your table.
You have a bad habit of throwing trivial examples at a non-trivial problem.
Yeah, you can ask "Hey I want a beer, where's the tavern?".
But if you want anything more difficult you need Diplomacy. Diplomacy checks to Gather Information cover the "Finding the guy who can tell you" and no amount of "Hurr durr I find the Ranger" is going to get you around the fact that you don't know where the motherf~~%er is so you're gonna need to do some lookin' or some Diplomating, and guess which one is faster and more likely to succeed?
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Seriously?
I walk over to...who knows, the shopkeeper on the street...and ask, "Where can a dusty traveler get a good ale in this town?", and I need to roll diplomacy?
Remind me to stay away from your table.
You have a bad habit of throwing trivial examples at a non-trivial problem.
Yeah, you can ask "Hey I want a beer, where's the tavern?".
But if you want anything more difficult you need Diplomacy. Diplomacy checks to Gather Information cover the "Finding the guy who can tell you" and no amount of "Hurr durr I find the Ranger" is going to get you around the fact that you don't know where the m##@&@$!@+~~ is so you're gonna need to do some lookin' or some Diplomating, and guess which one is faster and more likely to succeed?
It's only non-trivial when you decide it's non-trivial...what does a 'fighter' look like? How many people have never seen one? In this fantasy world that's so often overrun with monsters, and fighter being the most common PC class around...one would actually maybe think that the average Joe might even appreciate the guy that might have saved a few...or a few thousand lives.
Furthermore, with ranger being a pretty common class, it would truly be an idiot that couldn't find one.
It's only non-trivial when you decide it's non-trivial...what does a 'fighter' look like? How many people have never seen one? In this fantasy world that's so often overrun with monsters, and fighter being the most common PC class around...one would actually maybe think that the average Joe might even appreciate the guy that might have saved a few...or a few thousand lives.
Furthermore, with ranger being a pretty common class, it would truly be an idiot that couldn't find one.
The fighter I know that happens to have saved people locally will do fine. The generic battle scarred dude who looks more dangerous than anything I have ever seen will prompt extreme caution.
So, how do you know they're pretty common, exactly?
Ranger is a PC class, by definition they're already rarer than NPC classes by quite a large amount (until you hit higher levels, but the game changes quite significantly at that point).
Then you have to see if there's one in the particular town you're in.
And then you need to see if he knows the info you're searching for.
Which is what the Diplomacy check represents. That is the purpose for the existence of that part of Diplomacy.
And then, how do they know your Fighter has saved ANYONE? You're either in the middle of bumf+&% nowhere (and thus nobody knows you unless you've been around a while) or you're in a city (where nobody gives a shit, there's plenty more where you came from).
At higher levels (when you might be well known), like I said this changes. But then, most skills become irrelevant at higher levels.
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The fighter I know that happens to have saved people locally will do fine. The generic battle scarred dude who looks more dangerous than anything I have ever seen will prompt extreme caution.
It's only non-trivial when you decide it's non-trivial...what does a 'fighter' look like? How many people have never seen one? In this fantasy world that's so often overrun with monsters, and fighter being the most common PC class around...one would actually maybe think that the average Joe might even appreciate the guy that might have saved a few...or a few thousand lives.
Furthermore, with ranger being a pretty common class, it would truly be an idiot that couldn't find one.
Ok, not a problem. That's a lot different from the vibe I've been getting...and...if he sticks around...acts decent enough...buys from your stand honestly...how long does it really take before you're willing to carry on a reasonable conversation with him?
I mean seriously, if he's neutral good, it's unlikely that he's growling at everybody all the time, and acting threatening in general.
It's possible...but not likely.
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So, how do you know they're pretty common, exactly?
Ranger is a PC class, by definition they're already rarer than NPC classes by quite a large amount (until you hit higher levels, but the game changes quite significantly at that point).
Then you have to see if there's one in the particular town you're in.
And then you need to see if he knows the info you're searching for.
Which is what the Diplomacy check represents. That is the purpose for the existence of that part of Diplomacy.
Bwahahaha...never mind.
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Ok, not a problem. That's a lot different from the vibe I've been getting...and...if he sticks around...acts decent enough...buys from your stand honestly...how long does it really take before you're willing to carry on a reasonable conversation with him?I mean seriously, if he's neutral good, it's unlikely that he's growling at everybody all the time, and acting threatening in general.
It's possible...but not likely.
Once I've heard of this guy saving people I will be happy to help him (hence a situational modifier to diplomacy).
But define 'reasonable conversation'. I mean sure, I can tell him about the ale house, and I can discuss the weather. No problem. Am I going to elaborate on any dirty dark secrets of the town, or take the time to explain local history? No, probably not. I probably have business to attend to or friends to associate with. Again, this is a world where this man is possibly a walking tank (once they have full plate for example, or especially if they are bedecked in armor of fancier material and have magical gizmos draped on like ornaments on a Christmas tree), and I want to do nothing to tick him off. I will be respectful, polite, and bland as hell. Once I've heard tell of this being a nice fellow who saved cousin Mel, sure I'll spill any beans I might have.
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Bwahahaha...never mind.
Eh, I think at this point it's safe to put you in the list of people who can never come up with any decent rebuttal so they just scoff and hope it makes them look smart.
The list is mostly just you and Shallowsoul though.
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Ok, not a problem. That's a lot different from the vibe I've been getting...and...if he sticks around...acts decent enough...buys from your stand honestly...how long does it really take before you're willing to carry on a reasonable conversation with him?I mean seriously, if he's neutral good, it's unlikely that he's growling at everybody all the time, and acting threatening in general.
It's possible...but not likely.
Once I've heard of this guy saving people I will be happy to help him (hence a situational modifier to diplomacy).
But define 'reasonable conversation'. I mean sure, I can tell him about the ale house, and I can discuss the weather. No problem. Am I going to elaborate on any dirty dark secrets of the town, or take the time to explain local history? No, probably not. I probably have business to attend to or friends to associate with. Again, this is a world where this man is possibly a walking tank (once they have full plate for example, or especially if they are bedecked in armor of fancier material and have magical gizmos draped on like ornaments on a Christmas tree), and I want to do nothing to tick him off. I will be respectful, polite, and bland as hell. Once I've heard tell of this being a nice fellow who saved cousin Mel, sure I'll spill any beans I might have.
The average Joe doesn't even know the dirty, dark secrets of the town, so that was never an issue. Why is it that people jump to silly conclusions like that when that was never mentioned?
THAT'S where diplomacy might come in...but it won't be with the average Joe...if the average Joe knew, the whole town would, apparently. Long before it comes to something like that, the fighter has probably done many useful things, just by talking to people. That's just because people do that kind of thing...no diplomacy needed.
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At this point I'd put it down to Eldon and shallowsoul, if I remember right, believing that the social skills should not exist. If I recall right I had this conversation with you in another thread and you get rid of social skills in your game and roleplay them out.
Unfortunately by both RAW and RAI social skills are there and they do matter. You use them when you try to influence someones attitude towards you, such as buying them a beer or convincing them you're a friend. You can use them to lie, to ask for information, though common easy to get info is usually a DC 10 so unless you're horrific at it you have a good chance with no ranks.
To point one last thing out. Gather information is not a conversation based use of the skill. You do not use it against one person. It represents the activity of several hours spent in a bar talking to random people and trying to garner info from the general populace, not one specific person. There is no way by Raw to use it in actual conversation unless you plan to be talking to them for 1d4 hours.
Nope, never said it. You won't find a single post anywhere on these boards from me on how I thought social skills shouldn't exist, because there's good reason for them to be there...and I've built many a social character.
Feel free to shovel words into my mouth, though. You're doing such a wonderful job.
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Nope, never said it. You won't find a single post anywhere on these boards from me on how I thought social skills shouldn't exist, because there's good reason for them to be there...and I've built many a social character.
Feel free to shovel words into my mouth, though. You're doing such a wonderful job.
Dude, calm down, I just got here. I was remembering a last conversation that's why I said "If I remember right." It means I'm a little fuzzy though we have had numerous conversations on social skills (as well as many other things) you and I. You should probably step away to calm down for a few minutes.
Btw you just failed a diplomacy check. I was actually coming in to give you a hand here.
Regardless, just wanted to post one last thing.
If a creature’s attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature. This is an additional Diplomacy check, using the creature’s current attitude to determine the base DC, with one of the following modifiers. Once a creature’s attitude has shifted to helpful, the creature gives in to most requests without a check, unless the request is against its nature or puts it in serious peril. Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature’s values or its nature, subject to GM discretion.People start with indifferent attitudes. You need a diplomacy check in order to make them helpful. Once they are helpful though they're likely to help you with most basic things no check required.
You see, I'm fine with all that. Take a look at what those attitudes actually mean. Most people are not uncooperative...but that's the feedback I keep getting every time I mention that a fighter...can simply talk to people.
Did you think, perhaps...that maybe you failed a diplomacy roll, as it was your intent to be diplomatic? :p
At any rate, all good. I admit to being a bit frustrated with some people's silly ideas.
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You see, I'm fine with all that. Take a look at what those attitudes actually mean. Most people are not uncooperative...but that's the feedback I keep getting every time I mention that a fighter...can simply talk to people.
Did you think, perhaps...that maybe you failed a diplomacy roll, as it was your intent to be diplomatic? :p
It's quite likely as charisma was my dump. :P
Regardless, if I recall right all npcs by RAW do start at indifferent, not helpful.
Edit: Sorry not all I meant most. Situational can be taken into account.
Indifferent people have a basic level of cooperation. *shrug*
People hate fighters because they don't have an "out-of-combat" ability and if you don't have an ability written on your character sheet then, by law, you are not allowed to do anything. Right? I mean, how else do you play Pathfinder Ability Comparing Game?
(Now, I just sit back and watch. Hee, hee!)
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So, I'm understanding so far that fighters are TOTALLY AWESOME if:
And, also, that if you happen to see a problem with any of the above, you obviously hate fighters and/or don't know how to play.
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And, also, that if you happen to see a problem with any of the above, you obviously hate fighters and/or don't know how to play.
It's just like that old expression: "If you truly love something, berate it ceaselessly on the Internet."
The average Joe doesn't even know the dirty, dark secrets of the town, so that was never an issue. Why is it that people jump to silly conclusions like that when that was never mentioned?THAT'S where diplomacy might come in...but it won't be with the average Joe...if the average Joe knew, the whole town would, apparently. Long before it comes to something like that, the fighter has probably done many useful things, just by talking to people. That's just because people do that kind of thing...no diplomacy needed.
So the fighter can accomplish just as much in social interaction as a commoner they could hire for 1 CP to do the same work. Boo Yah.
Though personally I think the commoner would be better at it since the target is less likely to be scared at the consequences of screwing up.
Well I guess that certainly scores one for the fighter.
So ultimately, what can a fighter do out of combat? Socially, they can scare people, or accomplish as much or less then the guy you hire for carry your baggage.
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The average Joe doesn't even know the dirty, dark secrets of the town, so that was never an issue. Why is it that people jump to silly conclusions like that when that was never mentioned?THAT'S where diplomacy might come in...but it won't be with the average Joe...if the average Joe knew, the whole town would, apparently. Long before it comes to something like that, the fighter has probably done many useful things, just by talking to people. That's just because people do that kind of thing...no diplomacy needed.
So the fighter can accomplish just as much in social interaction as a commoner they could hire for 1 CP to do the same work. Boo Yah.
Though personally I think the commoner would be better at it since the target is less likely to be scared at the consequences of screwing up.
Well I guess that certainly scores one for the fighter.
So ultimately, what can a fighter do out of combat? Socially, they can scare people, or accomplish as much or less then the guy you hire for carry your baggage.
Only if the DM is a dick.
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Give simple advice or directions –5...and it's fair to say that a regular customer...or someone simply offering a few coin...should get a positive modifier. In fact...in many worlds...people sell information like anything else.Dude you do realize the fact that you're giving it a number means it requires a check. It might be horribly horribly easy but its a check.
I stand by my current stance though. People will start out as indifferent unless you're very well known for a good deed (saving the town etc) in which case the gm can feel free to call them helpful at the start.
Indifferent requires a check. Helpful will not. Thus, if you're a pack of nobodies or evil doers you'll need checks for help. If you're well known or the person is friendly towards you, you won't.
Furthermore its not fair to compare modern day people to pathfinder. They're closer to medieval when people were far less trusting and kind to strangers.
...and far more willing to do quite a lot for a silver or two. And?
...and no, not all start at indifferent. That's a default.
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...and far more willing to do quite a lot for a silver or two. And?
...and no, not all start at indifferent. That's a default.
Lol dude I said 4 posts ago not all start at indifferent. They start at indifferent unless you've done something pretty cool or major to help them. Maybe its a difference in worldviews or play style but people IMHO are generally less willing to be helpful than you seem to think.
Then again, where I come from drive by shootings are a weekend sport :P
I've lived in plenty of places like that and never had any problem. I know some people have troubles interacting...and I've been a doorman at clubs because I'm a big, scary guy. :p
Only if the DM is a dick.
So if your DM doesn't give you social interaction freebies, they are a dick?
Or is there some special fighter ability which puts them ahead of the porter you've hired that I don't know about?
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I've lived in plenty of places like that and never had any problem. I know some people have troubles interacting...and I've been a doorman at clubs because I'm a big, scary guy. :pNow show me your war face! Oh I think my bunny slippers just ran for cover! Come on, get mean!
My little baby is off to save China *sniff*
LOL...yeah, whatever. The point is, you don't really need diplomacy to have basic interactions. You casually lay out drive-by shootings as if it was supposed to matter...well, I lived in a bad neighborhood in the city that has had the nickname 'the murder capital of America'...and my point is 'so what?' Trust me, people are people.
Now...sure, a lot of people don't trust outright. Go into a convenience store late at night when only one person is there, and typically you'll be watched like a hawk. And? When you make your purchase, if you want to know if there's a restaurant open nearby, most people will likely tell you. If people have extra reason to be paranoid...so be it...but there's no special rule for 'extra paranoid around fighters' as a default, and for damn good reason.
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Only if the DM is a dick.
So if your DM doesn't give you social interaction freebies, they are a dick?
Or is there some special fighter ability which puts them ahead of the porter you've hired that I don't know about?
Freebies? EVERYBODY gets them. Yes, if you can't talk to people and have them respond as people do, as a rule, your DM is a dick.
No one is saying Fighter can't interect with people... Most everyday Diplomacy checks are DC 0~5. And most of the time, even with a Cha 7, you can make that check. So why bother rolling that?
Read the rules fo Diplomacy.
I don't think Fighters suck at social encounters because they can't ever speak to another person. I think they suck at social encounters because they can't do it in any significant way... In social situations, unless you're trying to scare someone, a Commoner is just as useful as a Fighter.
Fighters are not "completely useless" out of combat... But they do worse than every other class!
IMO, being worse than everyone else means you suck at whatever it's you are trying to do. Isn't that the definition of "suck"?
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No one is saying Fighter can't interect with people... Most everyday Diplomacy checks are DC 0~5. And most of the time, even with a Cha 7, you can make that check. So why bother rolling that?
Read the rules fo Diplomacy.
I don't think Fighters suck at social encounters because they can't ever speak to another person. I think they suck at social encounters because they can't do it in any significant way... In social situations, unless you're trying to scare someone, a Commoner is just as useful as a Fighter.
Fighters are not "completely useless" out of combat... But they do worse than every other class!
IMO, being worse than everyone else means you suck at whatever it's you are trying to do. Isn't that the definition of "suck"?
That's not suck, though. That's the norm. Most people don't just plain suck...is the basic point. When you have those big skills...that's when you friggin' rock. A +5 in real life could work at the U.N. (and from what I see, a lot of them have less...)