What happens when you have a character who uses two different divine classes and selects two different deities. For instance, if you started out as a cleric of one deity, then multiclass into inquisitor or druid, and selected a different deity?
I kind of like the idea. It reminds me of Elaine Cunninham's Daughter of the Drow trilogy. One of the antagonist was a "traitor priestess," a cleric of both Lolth and and a rival drow god. The two gods actively competed against one another.
Could such a thing happen in a standard game?
It would depend on which deities and why you needed different ones.
I think it would be perfectly viable to be a Pantheonist. Dwarves and Elves even have traits and rules for this, I think.
Two deities one cup?
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It will be heavily dependent on the GM (and the player's ability to convince).
RAW, nothing forbids it but
1) It cannot be used to gain an additional Domain, as the Inquisitor's Domain must match one of those he gets as a Cleric.
2) The Inquisitor's god must not see it as "slipping into corruption" (ie, ex-Inquisitor)
3) The Cleric's god must not see it as "grossly violating the code of conduct it requires" (ie, ex-Cleric)
The last two points are why this is so GM-dependent.
And now I am left wondering if one could be a Paladin of god A, a Cleric of god B and an Inquisitor of god C ;-)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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And now I am left wondering if one could be a Paladin of god A, a Cleric of god B and an Inquisitor of god C ;-)
As long as you can live with having to observe 3 different codes of conduct at the same time, I really don't see why you couldn't add paladin on top. If you should, on the other hand...
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And now I am left wondering if one could be a Paladin of god A, a Cleric of god B and an Inquisitor of god C ;-)As long as you can live with having to observe 3 different codes of conduct at the same time, I really don't see why you couldn't add paladin on top. If you should, on the other hand...
I'm seriously considering putting taking my paladin down that road come Wrath of the Righteous.
The three gods thing that is, not so much the multiclassing.
The code is probably going to be somewhat complicated.
It's probably easier with evil and or chaotic gods who tolerate/exhonerate treason and subterfuge.
For inquisitor the heretic archetype could help.
Playing two demonic deities against each other is a classic trope.
Jacobs was against it, so he shut it down really hard (see Isger and its hellknights).
I think it is neat, has been done well in some of the older golarion material, and makes sense with the polytheist setting.
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It's probably easier with evil and or chaotic gods who tolerate/exhonerate treason and subterfuge.
Works just fine with lawful and or good deities who appreciate cooperation.
EDIT: Either way, you would need to select your deities carefully. For example, it would be difficult if not impossible to serve both Iomedae and Asmodeus, even if a LN character could worship either deity. I could see Iomedae and Torag, though, or Shelyn and Sarenrae.
Torag and Sarenrae while they get along, would be pretty mutually exclusive, at least for a Paladin. Sarenrae is very much about attempting redemption when there is a possibility of it. Torag is very much "I will kill anyone threatening my people". Torag thinks redemption is "silly".
While gods alignments might be similar, I think you would probably have a hard time finding two gods so perfectly in step that doing one thing for one god wouldn't go against the nature of the other god.
As a GM, I wouldn't be inclined to allow it unless the player can find material about the gods in particular (Faiths of Purity/Balance/Corruption) and show me where they aren't incompatible. I might consider it based on whether or not I agree. Generally speaking I consider anyone who recieves divine powers from a god requiring absolute dedication to that god and forsaking worship of others. I take the view of all or nothing for those who recieve divine powers (with the exception of the Oracle).
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Jacobs was against it, so he shut it down really hard (see Isger and its hellknights).
I think it is neat, has been done well in some of the older golarion material, and makes sense with the polytheist setting.
If by "older golarion material", you mean Sarkoris (now known as the Worldwound), you' ve got it right.
Not sure that it was "neat", nor "done well" considering the result though ;-)
Could make it a feat…
Dual Worshipper
Your character worships two deities equally. The deities chosen must be no more than one step away from your alignment.
Requirements: Character level 1st
Benefit: When selecting a domain, you may choose from any domain offered by either deity you worship.
Obviously only of benefit to clerics, and quite underpowered as written. Thoughts?
Ideally you would only worship one or a pantheon as a whole, but I see people saying otherwise. Is there a particular reason you would want to?
I did once play a cloistered cleric back when they got 3 domains and he worshipped one deity for each domain. Was actually a lot of fun, and made the character complex with many merits and devotions.
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Could make it a feat…
Dual Worshipper
Your character worships two deities equally. The deities chosen must be no more than one step away from your alignment.
Requirements: Character level 1st
Benefit: When selecting a domain, you may choose from any domain offered by either deity you worship.Obviously only of benefit to clerics, and quite underpowered as written. Thoughts?
Not underpowered at all IMO.
The way it is written, the restriction on alignment means that you could worship gods with opposed components on one of the axis. For example, a LN Cleric could worship both Iomedae and Asmodeus. Problematic to say the least.
I would rephrase it so that both gods (and maybe also the Cleric) have the exact same alignment. That would make it simpler for the Cleric to follow a coherent code of behaviour.
And choosing from any domain offered by either deity opens up a potential list of 10 different domains to choose from. Talk about a minmaxer's wet dream come true.
BTW, I believe the requirement is Can be taken at 1st-level only (though I do not see how this restriction makes sense).
I much prefer player-GM discussion to a simple mechanical rule.
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Jacobs was against it, so he shut it down really hard (see Isger and its hellknights).
I think it is neat, has been done well in some of the older golarion material, and makes sense with the polytheist setting.
Have to agree there—followers worshiping only one got out of the pantheon was not the way most polytheistic religions worked. At most a polytheist might have one god they favored for day-to-day, while still making offerings to other gods at appropriate festivals/holidays/occasions (like an offering to the sea-god right before going on a voyage).
That said, allowing the worship of multiple gods might complicate the mechanics of some of the divine classes, so it might not be the easiest idea from a rules perspective. Not a fan of making it a feat, mostly because it seems silly that you need special training to be a polytheist.
How would it complicate it? At worst you open up more options. To my knowledge there aren't any super broken combos. At worst you get rid of the separatist cleric, but to be fair that archetype feels like it gives up things for something you should already have...
Jacobs was against it, so he shut it down really hard (see Isger and its hellknights).
I think it is neat, has been done well in some of the older golarion material, and makes sense with the polytheist setting.
If by "older golarion material", you mean Sarkoris (now known as the Worldwound), you' ve got it right.
Not sure that it was "neat", nor "done well" considering the result though ;-)
http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Godclaw
These chaps. Which were changed to not be polytheist, clerics or the like had to choose one of the five.
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In ancient times, the layfolk would turn their attention to any of a number of gods...attending various ceremonies...and turn their backs to others of the same pantheon, as the gods often quarreled...but I'm not familiar with any precedent for priests. Surely there are religions where you have pantheist priests - Vodoun, for example...and ancestor worship cults...perhaps an argument could be made for some Shinto or Hindu priests, but I'm not positive there. At any rate, I don't know of any real prohibition in Golarion, so long as they aren't feuding...
A Shintoist may have their favourite, I know one that is really into the worship of Amaterasu. But yes, Hinduism.
Bring that up though, and some don't want multiple gods behind a cleric, want to force monotheists in a poly setting.
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I don't really see Domain selection as a power balancer for clerics. If your GM allows philosophy clerics you can pick any two domains you like. There are also already deities that give very strong domain options - Desna and Cayden both give Liberation+Travel, for example.
The two deities chosen ought to be compatible, but that seems like something that could be handled with the "a cleric who grossly violates his deity's code of conduct loses his power" clause. If you pick two deities who have greatly different views, you will end up grossly violating someone's code of conduct and then you lose cleric powers. It's your responsibility to fulfill your dual obligation.
Torag and Sarenrae while they get along, would be pretty mutually exclusive, at least for a Paladin. Sarenrae is very much about attempting redemption when there is a possibility of it. Torag is very much "I will kill anyone threatening my people". Torag thinks redemption is "silly".
I wasn't suggesting Torag and Sarenrae. I was suggesting (Torag+Iomedae) or (Sarenrae+Shelyn).
While gods alignments might be similar, I think you would probably have a hard time finding two gods so perfectly in step that doing one thing for one god wouldn't go against the nature of the other god.
You can play a cleric whose alignment doesn't match their god, which means you don't always have to be in perfect lockstep with your god's agenda, just pretty close.
That being said, if your GM allows characters to worship multiple deities, your character can worship multiple deities even if your character has levels in only one divine class (or none at all). Number of deities worshiped is not a function of your character's class(es).
That makes sense to me. If you can serve Shelyn and Sarenrae at the same time, you can do that as a single-classed cleric or single-classed inquisitor. It's a bit odd to be a Cleric of Sarenrae and an Inquisitor of Shelyn.
Two deities one cup?
2 deities, 1 vessel.
So could you be a Cleric 2 of Sarenrae, and a Cleric 2 of Shelyn?
(Personally I as a GM wouldn't allow you to worship two dieties at one time. The first one would cease granting you spells, and stop granting powers from Domains.)
I don't see a problem with worshiping an entire pantheon, even. But you still only get 2 domains.
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So could you be a Cleric 2 of Sarenrae, and a Cleric 2 of Shelyn?
(Personally I as a GM wouldn't allow you to worship two dieties at one time. The first one would cease granting you spells, and stop granting powers from Domains.)
Way I see it, you would be a Cleric 2 Of Sarenrae/Shelyn. AFAIK there is zero official way to multiclass Cleric/Cleric, nor was it advocated on this thread IMO.
There are 2 takes on polytheistic pantheons in RPGs :
1) the inclusive pantheon, where even the bad gods have their proper place (for example Loki in the Norse pantheon)
2) the adversarial pantheon, where the bad gods can only be sworn enemies of the other gods (the best example I can think of IRL, though not really polytheistic, is Satan in the Catholic belief)
The key difference IMO is whether or not the "bad gods" respect the authority of the Pantheon's head god in everyday life.
In the first case, it is quite possible to have a priest paying proper reverence to the whole pantheon. For example, a Cleric could pray to Odin, Thor and Loki, with each having their proper role in the pantheon.
In the second case, let us say that I just cannot imagine a faithful Catholic priest praying both Jesus and Satan.
The Golarion setting is quite clearly of the second kind. You just do not pray to Sarenrae AND Rovagug with the same breath.
And it greatly discourages full pantheon worshipping and even the worship of several gods by a single Cleric. The only place which explicitly accepted mixed worship and inclusive pantheon's beliefs was Sarkoris and it is part of what led it to become the Worldwound. Thus modern people in the Inner Sea Region (at least) are quite hostile to Clerics who do not seem to revere a single known deity. Far more hostile in fact than they will be towards a Cleric of Rovagug or Urgathoa.
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Worship of multiple gods is ok read prince of wolves. Even preaching multiple gods us ok see father Zanthus in Sandpoint. Gaining the power to cast spells/gain domaigns though, you need to be so favored that it is easy to argue either way Even when preaching for a number of gods father Zanthus was required to pick one to gain spells from. Salim ganofar on the other hand doesn't even worship the diety that he gets spells from.
I ran a game where a dwarven Cleric of Torag inadvertently recited a prayer that attracted the attention of an Elemental Lord, got soul touched and gained some minor elemental powers from this new 'deity' :)
We had some fun working out which spells would draw this to Torag's notice, and when it would become a problem. It lasted for a couple of levels before the group broke up and the character was retired.
I think you would need to resolve the tensions quite quickly, though. It started to become tedious in that time - another seven or eight levels of playing that tension would have been boring.
Could make it a feat…
Dual Worshipper
Your character worships two deities equally. The deities chosen must be no more than one step away from your alignment.
Requirements: Character level 1st
Benefit: When selecting a domain, you may choose from any domain offered by either deity you worship.Obviously only of benefit to clerics, and quite underpowered as written. Thoughts?
You can already do that, as a cleric devoted to an ideal. There is zero in the the mechanics or the fluff that says you can't call out the gods that represent the ideal your character is devoted to. Suppose you choose Fire and Law as your domain and you are good, there is nothing saying that you can't brand yourself as being divinely inspired by both Iomedae and Sarenrae.
As a DM I would not allow it. The gods seem to be very greedy with their worshippers and I do not see them allowing them to serve someone else.
It would be like being a Catholic priest while at the same time being a Mormom bishop.
It would be like being a Catholic priest while at the same time being a Mormom bishop.
Not sure if that's the best example. They both worship the same deity and their tenants explicitly forbid worshipping others if I remember right. Meanwhile many Golarian deities are pretty cool with a few others, many times sharing domains. A real life example would be polytheism that already worships several gods, or pantheons that worship several gods at once but some times choosing one as a favorite because its attached to the lifestyle.
If I were to do it I'd just throw away the domain restrictions altogether, but I might just be crazy.
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As a DM I would not allow it. The gods seem to be very greedy with their worshippers and I do not see them allowing them to serve someone else.
It would be like being a Catholic priest while at the same time being a Mormom bishop.
Not at all...rather, it would be like trying to be a priest for two different sects of Sarenrae...for example.