Death should be a negative energy cleric.
Pestilence is an poison bombing alchemist whose mutagen causes them thappear sickly with weeping sores.
War is your anti- paladin
Famine is a blight Druid.
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My votes:
Death: ninja. At least level ten with invisible blade and dual wield. The thought is something the PCs can't see slaughtering them, blood spraying. If not, ranger into assassin.
Famine: I like the Sohei monk with vow of fasting.
Pestilence: definitely anti-paladin no doubt. Sword and board.
War: I'd lean towards fighter over barbarian. Wield a 2H and spiked full plate, dual wield the two.
EDIT: in hindsight, I agree that death should be a caster type. Necromancer wizard or Bones Oracle
Pestilence could be a ratfolk plague-bearer
Death could be a necromancer, wizard or sorcerer with undead bloodline.
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I'm also considering making war into a battle herald.
While Battle Herald seems applicable, I really see the Horseman of War as an avatar of war and battle. He can kill and damage like no one else. Nothing makes this image for me like a hulk with a big sword and spiked full plate, gore dripping from it. Herald just doesn't inspire the same level of fear.
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um.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Book of the Damned—Volume 3: Horsemen of the Apocalypse (PFRPG)
I own all three and they are well worth the money.
Apollyon Horseman of Pestilende
Charon Horseman of Death
Szuriel Horseman of War
Trelmarixian Horseman of Famine
Are the four listed and have several pages dedicated to them.
Pathfinder wiki has a very small amount of info on them but, should help present you with ideas. For example who there worshipers are.
Pestilence is totally a Anti-paladin of at least 3rd level. Let him specifically have sought out and acquired every disease in the game book and he purposefully infects everyone and everything he can.
Death, I would make death a lich. For some reason, it just seems right. In fact, I would probably make them all undead, even the War barbarian. I would just houserule that the barbarian uses his charisma for his rounds of rage and that he bonus to constitution from raging does nothing.
The Fell Rider is a Hobgoblin Cavalier archetype. Pretty much perfect for anything you're talking about.
Sorcerer with the Undead bloodline seems appropriate somewhere.
For Pestilence related things, the Ratfolk have a Racial Archetype called the Plague Bringer. You could just give it to a different race if you don't want your rider to be ratty.
For War, I'd definitely wanna do something that boosted party members, in a battle cry/leadership sort of deal. Battle Herald is perfect.
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Don't constrain yourself to just the classes. Most creatures that are outsiders and the like are built with racial HD especially ones that exceed the capabilities of a level 20 creature as each Horseman does individually.
So, my advice would be to consult the bestiary about building your own monsters. For demigods and similarly so-very-far-out-there powerful beings I simply find normal classes way too restrictive.
Well... All of them could be made using the Anti-Paladin class... But for variety sakes:
Death: A Cleric/Oracle with lots of energy drain/negative energy abilities and some necromancy spells. An undead (Lich?) Oracle of Battle would work wonderfully. This one should be the most powerful of the horsemen, as well as he most patient. Everything dies sooner or later, even gods, so he's in no hurry.
War: Anti-Paladin/Barbarian multiclass is perfect! It must have full BAB! And Rage is the most warlike ability in the game. Go full kratos on their asses! Optimize this one for direct HP damage! Pounce, Witch Hunter, Come and Get Me... Whatever makes them bleed faster!
Pestilence: A Blight Druid would fit the theme really nicely, but pretty much any divine caster could work with the right spell selection. I also like Byrdology's idea of a poison-using Alchemist.
Famine: This one is hard... Blight Druid might work as well, but I'm not sure what'd be the best spell selection for him. Isn' there a monster that devours souls? Maybe you could make one of those with a few levels in Anti-Paladin/Cleric/Oracle. Make him take Leadership and ride some creature with the Swallow Whole ability.
Don't constrain yourself to just the classes. Most creatures that are outsiders and the like are built with racial HD especially ones that exceed the capabilities of a level 20 creature as each Horseman does individually.
So, my advice would be to consult the bestiary about building your own monsters. For demigods and similarly so-very-far-out-there powerful beings I simply find normal classes way too restrictive.
I agree with Buri. I wouldn't limit myself to standard races/classes for iconic beings such as the Horsemen.
Shouldn't they also have a bit of Cavalier in them?
You know...being Horsemen?
Shouldn't they also have a bit of Cavalier in them?
You know...being Horsemen?
Not anymore than they should have a bit of Ranger with Mounted Combat style.
I did something similar before... when I did it it was:
Death: Cleric with lots of death-stuff
War: Fighter with large retinue of warriors
Pestilence: Antipaladin with lots of condition-based cruelties and spells
Famine: Witch with amped up versions of Cup of Dust/Feast of Ashes spells, Blight Hex and stuff like that.
while I would use the daemon lords as the riders, their mortal emissaries who would come to herald their arrival would be......
Pestilence: (F)Sorcerer (pestilence bloodline, see AP #29 Mother of Flies)
War: (M)Barbarian
Famine:(F)Witch or Blight Druid
Death: (M)Oracle of bones (triple cursed:Wasting,Consumed,and Black Blood)
All of them with levels of the Souleater prestige class from Book of the Damned.
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I'm a bit confused why people keep putting barbarian for war. Barbarians are, thematically at least, tribal warriors, used to skirmishing and raiding. They don't have the capability for prolonged warfare. Fighters on the other hand are hypothetically masters of battle. They're the guys who wage wars.
I'm a bit confused why people keep putting barbarian for war. Barbarians are, thematically at least, tribal warriors, used to skirmishing and raiding. They don't have the capability for prolonged warfare. Fighters on the other hand are hypothetically masters of battle. They're the guys who wage wars.
Well, we could say that Warriors are the guys who wage war, since they will most likely compose the mass of any army.
Or we could say it's those aristocrats who decide to start the war.Personaly, I liek Barbarian/Anti-Paladin because that shows a mix of ferocity in battle (Barbarian) and unholy terror (anti-Paladin) that comes with being the horseman of War.
That and it comes with all sorts of cool and unique abilities! Which is always a big plus for any build.
Death as TN works fine. It cares not for law or order, good or evil. In the end, it reaches everyone, so why care?
War as CE fits perfectly, IMO. After all, "In war and love, everything is permitted." Sure, there are good people fighting wars for good reason, but the concept of War itself? Definetely CE.
Famine and Pestilence could be neutral, but since these character are probably doing their best to spread them around, I'd say the horsemen are evil.
Death is probably the only horseman uninterested in spreading death and destruction, mainly because it doesn't need to. Everything dies anyway, so why bother chasing mortals?
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Minor sidenote: If you read the bible, the four horsemen are not, in fact: war, famine, pestilence, and death. They are: 'war', famine, 'pestilence + death', and 'the white horseman' which is unclear, but most likely a metaphor for Jesus. So, yeah...
And now back to your regularly scheduled pathfinder discussion.
Wow, I have a degree in theology, and I am afraid to touch that one...
I got one: What if doing the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about, so all the religions got it wrong?!?!?!?!?!?!
If you're trying to stick close to canon they're all CE.
War: Oracle of Battle
War should do more than just kill well (death is not his domain, after all) - he should inspire people to kill! No Ftr or Barb has tools like the Battle Mysteries, or spells like Compel Hostility. (Oracle instead of Cleric because a high charisma lends itself well to the persuasive type.)
Famine: ???
No class really best represents "famine" as a theme. All of the previous suggestions here are likely decent ones. If I had to pick something, I'd likely go with as much aoe destruction potential as possible (best way I can think of to ruin crops and dry out river beds).
Pestilence: Blight Druid
Read the class abilities: You are walking disease. Things that stand too near to you get sick. Things that attack you get sick. You get spells that specifically cause sickness and corruption.
Death: Necromancer
Arcane or Divine doesn't really matter (though I would say Divine does it a little bit better: Slay Living and Harm aren't on the arcane list), but this one's pretty cut-and-dry.
I have wanted to DM or play in a four horsemen type adventure for many years. I'm sure it is unoriginal, but time show it to be a popular choice, despite the religious bent.
If class selection is what hinders you, then do away with classes, and make them outsiders (which they should be anyways). Give them the appropriate hit dice and befitting racial abilities.
War: Battle Herald or Oracle of Battle, focusing on instilling the urge to kill in everything and everyone around you.
Famine: Witch using Putrefy Food and Drink, Ray of Sickening, Feast of Ashes, and the Blight Hex
Pestilence: Antipaladin, focusing purely and solely on diseases and spreading them
Death: This one is where I would differ a good bit from the rest. The Bible verse says "They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine, and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth". I've always read that to be describing the four horsemen, and sword is obviously War, famine is Famine, plague is Pestilence... so Death would kill by the wild beasts of the earth, or by being a summon-focused character, either a Conjuration Wizard or a Summoner.
Darksiders & Darksiders 2 may hold insight for your builds. Also varies on which translation you go by.
Biblical: Conquest (depicted as internal conlict), Death, Famine and War
Pop Culture: Death, Famine, Pestilence and War
Darksiders Series: Death, Fury (Famine, though he bears no real resemblance), Strife (Conquest) and War
As for me, I have similar builds.
Death: Gnome Swashbuckler Rogue (Dread Gnome subtype ARG) with his trusty scythe (Caput Mortuum in Weapons of Legacy [3.5] for an even beefier version)
Famine: This should be your Blight Druid as Famine leads to pestilence.
Conquest: Unsure myself
War: Orc Armored Hulk Barbarian
Finally, ARG p 171 contains Fiendish Patrons for the Tiefling Fiendish Vessel Cleric. It contains each of the Four Horsemen. You could make all 4 a Tiefling fiendish vessel cleric and dedicate each one to its related diety/patron.
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They're all NE actually, according to Pathfinder lore.
First of all, make them all graveknights (Bestiary 3). This gives them the horse, high stats, the ability to control undead minions, and makes them all very hard to permanently destroy.
Appollyon, Pestilence — Graveknight sorcerer (undead bloodline) with a scythe. He focuses on battlefield control, including things like stinking cloud, to which he and all his fellow horsemen are immune. Naturally, to avoid arcane spell failure he casts most of his spells with Still Spell.
Charon, Death — Graveknight antipaladin with a quarterstaff. Using his deceptively strong double weapon, he makes us of Two-Weapon Fighting to smite good all over the place.
Szuriel, War — Graveknight fighter with a greatsword. Being a master of combat and conquering, he is at the front lines and can also likely shoot enemies to pieces with a longbow from horseback.
Trelmarixian, Famine — Graveknight blight druid with bone spiked gauntlet. More battlefield control, as well as the summoning of starving animals to gnaw on your heroes.
The chosen weapons are their holy weapons according to the Inner Sea World Guide. They would probably be fought one at a time, and then fought all together as a typical four-person party. Druid, sorcerer, antipaladin, fighter is a good balance, so they would probably do well together or apart.
And so they are NE.
Szuriel, War — Graveknight fighter with a greatsword. Being a master of combat and conquering, he is at the front lines and can also likely shoot enemies to pieces with a longbow from horseback.
Quite so, but War would do best to lead others in battle. Preferable a series of battles, which is more close to an actual war.
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Quite so, but War would do best to lead others in battle. Preferable a series of battles, which is more close to an actual war.
Szuriel, War — Graveknight fighter with a greatsword. Being a master of combat and conquering, he is at the front lines and can also likely shoot enemies to pieces with a longbow from horseback.
Easily done with their ability to control undead. If you give them a small cult of necromancer wizards and clerics, he will easily be able to throw legions of undead at the party while still being a kickass fighter.
Pestilence will also be able to create really nice undead for the four to use. Start with plague zombie giants and work your way up! :D
Revelations chapter 6 v 1-8 describe the horsemen of the apocalyse.
Conquest weilds a bow
War weilds a greatsword
Make death a Lich; Undead Lord Cleric + Master of the Grave PrC
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@Saluzi - There was the genuinely creepy Blighter "bad guy" prestige class, originally introduced in 3.0's Masters of the Wild, a highly enjoyable read with lots of cool ideas including herbal infusions, weird new weapons and tools, spells like big sky and waterball, and other prestige classes including the Animal Lord, Geomancer, Verdant Lord, King/Queen of the Wild and Oozemaster (and the Forsaker, but let's...forget about that one).
I agree with having the PCs fight them one at a time, then altogether for the grand finale (or maybe just end with Death...or surprise them with a "White Rider"). Also, these are supposed to be POWERFUL entities - if you're going to give them PC classes, make them GESTALT PC classes, which will permit you to make combinations that fit each Horseman's character even more perfectly. Also, I would suggest exempting them from normal class alignment restrictions.
I cannot overstate my support for those who characterize War as Lawful Evil. What with smoke, fire, projectiles, corpses, and people running all over the place, it might look "chaotic" on the front lines, but the people who create it are being Lawful. War is hive-mind behavior at its worst. I would recommend OP (really everyone, for their own enrichment) some good historical quotations on war - I know Orwell, Eisenhower, and Einstein, for example, all put out some powerful ones. As for the other Horsemen, you said you were going to make Death Neutral Neutral, so make Famine Neutral Evil (it doesn't care, it just takes) and Pestilence Chaotic Evil (Germs! Vermin! Offal! Decay! Mess! So many colors, all of them ugly!).
War: Cavalier/Fighter
I agree with those who say War should have leadership abilities in addition to being a killing machine, and those who say War should be a Fighter rather than a Barbarian are probably correct as well. Give it the Leadership feat, and use the resulting followers to vicious effect when you unleash the Cavalier's Tactician ability.
Famine: Hungry Ghost Qigong Monk/Witch
What is the nature of famine? It starves. It desolates. It DEPRIVES.
I don't understand why no one else seconded your original idea of making Famine a Monk - I think it's clever and insightful. DEFINITELY make it the Hungry Ghost Monk archetype, and in addition to Vow of Fasting, give it a Vow of Poverty. Also give it the Combat Expertise, Improved Steal, and Greater Steal feats. For Qigong powers, give it Deny Death (4th), true strike (5th), gaseous form (7th), Wind Stance (12th), and Penetrating Strike (17th, replaces Tongue of the Sun and Moon). For the Witch half, I'd recommend Improved Familiar (Cacodaemon) and if you can't find an existing Witch Patron that satisfies you (I couldn't for this), I'd suggest you make one up. It's not hard, just make a list of one famine-themed spell for each level except 0 that the Witch spell list doesn't normally contain (for maximum benefit), and I think there could stand to be a "Famine/Blight/Want/Loss" type of Witch Patron anyways. Hexes could include (this is not a full or definite list) Blight, Cauldron, Evil Eye, Cook People, Poison Steep, Witch's Brew, and Death Curse. Most importantly, favored spells would most certainly include touch of fatigue and feast of ashes, as well as anything that inflicted fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage/drain and negative levels. I would also recommend Spell Focus (Necromancy), as well as Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy) if possible, as well as maybe Eldritch Heritage (Daemon Bloodline) which would give it the highly apropos Wasting Ray spell-like ability. As a final note, you could also just replace Famine's Witch Class with full Daemon-Bloodline Sorcerer, the only real shortcomings being you'd lose the highly-fitting cup of dust and feast of ashes spells or the Cauldron line of Hexes.
Pestilence: Blight Druid/Broodmaster Eidolon
The people raving about the Blight Druid are right about their class abilities, PLUS Druids get nearly all the icky poison/disease/filth/rot/vermin spells Pestilence should be able to cast. The Broodmaster class adds almost everything Pestilence would have the Blight Druid doesn't, such as a pack of minions (literally, "pests"), which can be icky, squirmy, twisted and wretched, and a lot of the "glibbity-globbity, icky-sticky, ooze-and-ewws" spells Druids don't get, including lots of acid spells, grease, ray of sickening, communal protection from Good, black tentacles, conjure black pudding, and most of the summon monster spells, which can offer some icky fiends and other monsters not on the summon nature's ally list - particularly if you expand the list to some of the monsters added as options by later sources.
Death: Necromancer/Cleric
Cut-and-dry indeed, especially if you gestalt, since arcane necromancy does have some nifty/nasty spells the cleric list doesn't. Read over the Undead Lord archetype and the Undead Subdomain which it links you to and the archetype requires you to take as your only domain to make sure it's really what you want for Death - I would keep it a normal Cleric, myself.
Whatever OP decides to go with, it would be important to make the Horsemen and their horses immune to each other's Area Effects, so they can use those indiscriminately while still riding together.
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In Pathfinder lore, Charon is just as much of a dick as the other horsemen (Abaddon description from Book of the Damned 3; take note of The Silent Nation). The same book also describes Charon as hating people who extend their lives beyond their time, but as advocating undeath for such people:
"As an avatar of death by old age, Charon abhors the magical
extension of mortal life. Yet paradoxically, the Horseman
actively makes deals to spread the creation of liches,
vampires, and other forms of undeath. Charon knows that
newly immortal puppets spread more death on their worlds,
and that even freedom from aging is not invulnerability—
when those “immortals” are eventually slain, their souls are
bound to Charon. Other methods of life extension—arcane,
alchemical, or technological—are zealously hunted down
and destroyed or stolen by Charon’s brood, and his palace
below the Styx supposedly contains a treasure trove of
artifacts linked to the attainment of everlasting life."
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I really would prefer for Death not to be a necromancer because I feel as if death and undeath are two different things. Undeath is clearly evil, and in my universe death is Neutral and given the task to control the other horsemen.
An all-too-popular misconception. Are Jack Skellington and Count Von Count Evil? There are many Evil undead monsters, sure, but that doesn't mean it must be a universality, or that necromancers have to be. Dr. Frankenstein wasn't Evil (and actually, neither was his monster). I don't recall if Pathfinder said otherwise or not, but in 3.0-3.5, at least, Ghosts, a rather big and important category of undead monster, could be any alignment. Let me also point out that, as near as most people can tell, the only reason 3.5 made mindless undead Neutral Evil instead of Neutral Neutral like they used to be was as a favor to Paladins so they could Smite them if they really wanted to waste their Smites that way. If my first two examples sound too postmodern to you, consider some much older folklore that is exceedingly relevant: There are legends of Death Himself coming to the world on special occasions (midnight on Halloween, of course), rather like Santa Claus for a different demographic, with a fiddle in hand instead of a scythe, and he will go to a graveyard, perch on a handy headstone, strike up aforementioned fiddle, and prompt the dead to rise from their graves and throw a big ol' party until dawn - it's called the Danse Macabre, it's got a great soundtrack, and it's really the ultimate source of the whole fleshless animated skeleton thing (whose next big gigs before modern fantasy games were Ray Harryhausen's groundbreaking fantasy-adventure movies, where, yeah, their roles were more belligerent).
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Interesting thought: make Death a lich bard with the dirge bard archetype. All four of these beings probably have at LEAST 20 class levels, being almost-deities each of them.
A level 20 dirge bard can have two level 6 wizard necromancy spells (create undead and undeath to death seem appropriate) and is able to affect undead with mind-effecting spells like dominate monster. Then not only do you have a legion of undead for your party to face, but he can back up the other three horsemen with bardic performance, and can play a fiddle to raise up some skeletons with Dance of the Dead (and with virtuoso performance he can even Inspire Courage his animated dancers!).