Four Horsemen


Advice

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Saluzi wrote:
Famine - thinking back to 3.5, wasn't there an anti-druid? And a god associated with famine?

Actually, that concept originated in Forgotten Realms, and to be honest FR did it better (after having seen both).


oh hey, I forgot to mention that the 4 Horsemen are NOT supposed to be demons (whatever), they are actually God's angels sent to usher in the Apocalypse. They aren't evil, they are doing their collective jobs as angels.

That's the thing, angels are supposed to be terrible beings, and not always on the side of humanity. Remember that. See, Pathfinder got it wrong in this instance. Also, the definition of daemon is not an evil one, PF swiped it because it sounded cool. They are in fact neutral spirits that have never been human (they aren't ghosts) and tend to lean toward good because Good is just fine with them existing as they please, so long as they harm none. It's Evil that Good has a problem with, because Evil won't allow ANYONE to be left alone in it's quest.

At least, all of that is according to Judeo-Christian folklore.


Piccolo wrote:

oh hey, I forgot to mention that the 4 Horsemen are NOT supposed to be demons (whatever), they are actually God's angels sent to usher in the Apocalypse. They aren't evil, they are doing their collective jobs as angels.

That's the thing, angels are supposed to be terrible beings, and not always on the side of humanity. Remember that. See, Pathfinder got it wrong in this instance. Also, the definition of daemon is not an evil one, PF swiped it because it sounded cool. They are in fact neutral spirits that have never been human (they aren't ghosts) and tend to lean toward good because Good is just fine with them existing as they please, so long as they harm none. It's Evil that Good has a problem with, because Evil won't allow ANYONE to be left alone in it's quest.

At least, all of that is according to Judeo-Christian folklore.

I'm pretty sure Daemons were (initially at least) just a renaming of the Yugoloths of DnD, since that term wasn't OGL. But they could have picked a more appropriate term, you're right about that.

EDIT: Hilariously enough, a wiki search reveals that Daemons are a return to the original DnD name for the creatures, which were later rebranded Yugoloths. Learned something new today.


Daemon

Noun
1.(in ancient Greek belief) A divinity or supernatural being of a nature between gods and humans.

Synonyms
demon - fiend - devil

according to google.

EDIT:
Dictionary.com

Dae-mon [dee-muh n]

Noun
1. Classical Mythology. a. a god.

b. a subordinate deity, as the genius of a place or a person's attendant spirit.

2. a demon.

Origin: Latin daemōn a spirit, an evil spirit


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Craig Frankum wrote:

Daemon

Noun
1.(in ancient Greek belief) A divinity or supernatural being of a nature between gods and humans.

Synonyms
demon - fiend - devil

according to google.

EDIT:
Dictionary.com

Dae-mon [dee-muh n]

Noun
1. Classical Mythology. a. a god.

b. a subordinate deity, as the genius of a place or a person's attendant spirit.

2. a demon.

Origin: Latin daemōn a spirit, an evil spirit

This! Demon was originally a word that meant a protector or care taker, not nescisarily good. The word has since been demonized (like what I just did there?). In fact. The word demon never appears in the original text of the bible.

The Exchange

The reference on Satan is "The Birth of Satan" t j wary and Gregory mobley
He was originally an angel of quality control. Gets a little ambitious in Job. There was also the angle of death the Egyptians got to know.
The reference on the revolt in heaven is the Book of Enoch, available on line. A bit dry so google for summary. It's not in our bible but it's in the Ethiopian bible. Seems they mated with humans, taught astrology, showed new weapons, and introduced women to makeup.


And arrived in UFO's to build pyramids around the world.


There were multiple spellings of words, since it wasn't highly focused on. Thus, it could be spelled daimon, daemon, or even demon. Even then, it was meant as a neutral term for a nonhuman-origin spirit.

Glad that the theologist here backed me up. I spent a lot of time as a kid learning occult lore, as I study the darker aspects of humanity in order to both stop and understand them.

The Exchange

Pyramids around the world are easy. If you want a tall mud brick wall, it has to be a slanted retaining wall. If you want any wall in earthquake country, it has to be a slanted retaining wall. The key is the Japanese pyramids - highly truncated and under all the temples and castles (which are made of wood). Those stay up earthquake after earthquake.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Cass_Ponderovian wrote:

I want to design the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse, for a campaign I may fun in the future, But I'm having trouble deciding on classes. Famine, pestilence, and war will all be lv. 6 and death will be level 8. I'm pretty set that war should be a martial type (probably barbarian) and Famine should be a monk with the vow of fasting. I'm having trouble deciding on death and pestilence. Clearly pestilence should have disease inducing powers (although if need be it can just be a de-buffer that induces status effects re-packaged as diseases.)

So what I'm thinking is:

1. Pestilence is an anti-paladin who focuses on touch of corruption and death would be a undead sorc (this is the choice of last resort as I don't think it will be very strong and the horsemen will level alongside the party and be the Big Bad after several fights.)

2. Death is an Anti-Paladin and Pestilence is a ???

All Paizo material is allowed and the characters don't need to have a mount (even thought they're horsemen)

As others have stated, the horsemen themselves should probably be at least in the nascent outsider lord (CR 21-25) range, if not demigods (CR 26+). However, a group of mortal/undead emissaries based on the horsemen's portfolios might look like:

Death - I'm having a hard time seeing anything other than a cleric (undead lord). Use the Corpse Companion feature for an undead mount and concentrate on Channel Energy and death magic.

Famine - Witch (Death patron) makes the most sense, as previously mentioned; Blight hex (also Poison Steep, Cook People, and a re-skinned Hoarfrost called "Wasting" as a negative energy effect), putrefy food and drink, feast of ashes, cup of dust, etc. Improved Familiar (Stirge) would also be thematic (as would dhamphir for the race; Fangs and possibly Vampiric Empathy alternate racial traits); possibly a couple levels of alchemist (internal alchemist, vivisectionist) to pick up some additional abilities and the Tumor Familiar discovery.

Pestilence - As also mentioned, druid (blight druid) makes the most sense; concentrate on disease magic (most of which druids have on their spell list). A slight tweak to grant a vermin companion (giant scorpion) gives a nasty mount (especially with the plague carrier spell).

War - I agree as well with oracle (Battle mystery); Battlecry, Iron Skin, Resiliency, Skill at Arms, Surprising Charge, War Sight, and Weapon Mastery are all good revelation choices. The Haunted curse can work, as can Lame (possibly why the character's mounted?); concentrate on self-buffing and mass buffs/debuffs.


Dragonchess Player wrote:

As others have stated, the horsemen themselves should probably be at least in the nascent outsider lord (CR 21-25) range, if not demigods (CR 26+). However, a group of mortal/undead emissaries based on the horsemen's portfolios might look like:

Death - I'm having a hard time seeing anything other than a cleric (undead lord). Use the Corpse Companion feature for an undead mount and concentrate on Channel Energy and death magic.

Famine - Witch (Death patron) makes the most sense, as previously mentioned; Blight hex (also Poison Steep, Cook People, and a re-skinned Hoarfrost called "Wasting" as a negative energy effect), putrefy food and drink, feast of ashes, cup of dust, etc. Improved Familiar (Stirge) would also be thematic (as would dhamphir for the race; Fangs and possibly Vampiric Empathy alternate racial traits); possibly a couple levels of alchemist (internal alchemist, vivisectionist) to pick up some additional abilities and the Tumor Familiar discovery.

Pestilence - As also mentioned, druid (blight druid) makes the most sense; concentrate on disease magic (most of which druids have on their spell list). A slight tweak to grant a vermin companion (giant scorpion) gives a nasty mount (especially with the plague carrier spell).

War - I agree as well with oracle (Battle mystery); Battlecry, Iron Skin, Resiliency, Skill at Arms, Surprising Charge, War Sight, and Weapon Mastery are all good revelation choices. The Haunted curse can work, as can Lame (possibly why the character's mounted?); concentrate on self-buffing and mass buffs/debuffs.

I like these ideas, but my problem is that I don't want to make them all casters. In the campaign these won't be actual horsemen, just people recruited by a cult to represent them and spread evil based on their powers (except death. Death is actually death, a TN powerhouse that has been bound and forced to stay with the other horsemen avatars).

That being said I have already built everything except death and if I can't think of anything more exciting, I'll be making some sort of a cleric.


Simply put, the caster suggestions ARE the best representations of the actual Horsemen.
You can force anything to fit into any sort of mold and call it a follower (the stealthy rogue/ninja for death, the barb/ftr 'warrior type' for war, etc) but when you ask for the best representations, you end up with a list of casters. :)

(And of course we're not talking about the Horsemen themselves. They don't have/need class levels - they're super-high CR outsiders with all sorts of spell-like and supernatural abilities to make them fit the mold.)


Pestilence=witch
Death = anti-paladin


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm a fan of the Good Omens style.. especially Red.


Personally I think Oracles make the best horsemen. Especially if you have the Divine Favor "The Oracle" and The Secrets of the Oracle books. With those two you have now the 4 horsemen.

War- Battle Mystery
Death- Bones mystery
Plague- Plague mystery (Divine Favor, The Oracle pdf)
Famine- Rot Mystery (The Secrets of the Oracle pdf)

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