the jeff that is out of context when you put that "in such an area" part in from the FAQ.
That is in regards to a sunrod. Not the light spell.
The level 0 light spell is 100% ineffective within the area of a level 3 deeper darkness spell because it is of a lower spell level.
If you cast a heightened light spell (using Highten Spell metamagic) at spell level 4, then you'd overcome deeper darkness completely. Better yet, get an everburning torch made with heightened continual flame at spell level 4 and say night-night to your darkness problems.
Here is the easy way to look at it:
If the idea is that Deeper Darkness neutralizes all non-magical light and then makes the area supernaturally dark, it would just say this: "All light is extinguished and the area is engulfed in supernatural darkness".
It doesn't say that. It doesn't say anything remotely like that.
Furthermore, the word "ambient" does not even remotely mean "the amount of light that would exist if there were no light source".
Obviously the intent was to have a sliding scale of light and Deeper Darkness moves that slider two steps toward darkness - beginning at the current ("ambient") light and moving the slider from there.
It also creates a sort of "antimagic" field that only affects light spells, suppressing those in existence and preventing new ones from functioning, unless they are of a higher level than the Deeper Darkness.
It really is that easy.
Observation : Ambient, as stated, isn't defined. Thus, we have issues with the spells not working correctly, as even sunlight is 'mundane', again as stated. This also causes issues with magical and alchemical lights that enter the darkness spell (or vice versa).
House Rule Territory : In my own games, I throw out the mundane light part, and do as someone else suggested. It just lowers whatever the current (not ambient) light level is. So, in a noon day field, it lowers to dim (DV works). In a room with a window, on a sunny day, is likely lowered to Dark (DV works). In a room with no windows, and only torches, etc, then the torches lower to dim light, and their dim light radius turns to Deeper Darkness (no DV, but DV works in the radius of the torch, or twice as far if you have low-light and DV).
|
The problem in this case is the 'non-magical light sources' not increasing the illumination.
If an undergound chamber is lit by several torches, they have already 'increased' the illumination. The 'ambient' light in that room is now 'normal'. If a deeper darkness spell is cast in the room, that ambient light is now reduced by two steps, to 'normal' darkness.
The spell says that non-magical light sources cannot increase the light level, but those pre-existing sources are not! It is the deeper darkness that is decreasing it!
In the (pre-darkness) room, adding more torches would not increase the level of illumination; it is already 'normal' light. That's why non-magical light sources won't increase the level of illumination; they don't anyway!
The spell does not say, 'Non-magical light sources do not function within the area'.
On a related note, I had hoped that PF would clear up the mess in 3.5 which was how light and darkness spells interacted. They tried, but failed.
A simple fix is easily possible. It is based upon the idea that higher level spells are more powerful than lower level spells, and that otherwise the concepts of 'light' and 'darkness' are equal but opposed. (right now, darkness-type spells are inexplicably more powerful than light-type spells of a higher level!)
Spells with the light descriptor can counter or dispel spells with the darkness descriptor, so long as the light spell is the same level or higher than the darkness spell.
Spells with the darkness descriptor can counter or dispel spells with the light descriptor, so long as the darkness spell is the same level or higher than the light spell.
If an object radiating light and an object radiating darkness are placed so that their respective areas of (dis)illumination intersect, then the level of light in the intersecting area dependes on the relative levels of the two spells: if the spells are of different levels then the lower level spell is ignored within the intersecting area. If both spells are of the same level then both spells are ignored in the intersecting area.
|
Here is the easy way to look at it:
If the idea is that Deeper Darkness neutralizes all non-magical light and then makes the area supernaturally dark, it would just say this: "All light is extinguished and the area is engulfed in supernatural darkness".
It doesn't say that. It doesn't say anything remotely like that.
Furthermore, the word "ambient" does not even remotely mean "the amount of light that would exist if there were no light source".
Obviously the intent was to have a sliding scale of light and Deeper Darkness moves that slider two steps toward darkness - beginning at the current ("ambient") light and moving the slider from there.
It also creates a sort of "antimagic" field that only affects light spells, suppressing those in existence and preventing new ones from functioning, unless they are of a higher level than the Deeper Darkness.
It really is that easy.
But the FAQ clearly states otherwise
Darkness: Can adding additional sunrods to the area of the spell increase the light level?
No, sunrods can never increase the light level of an area of darkness because they are not magical sources of light. In such an area, it automatically defaults to the ambient natural light level, and then reduces it one step.
Thus the sunrods (or torches, or wayfinders, or whatever other non-magical light sources that are in effect, and magical ones that are of lower spell level) are immediately counted as not even being lit and you then start with ambient lighting.
I think part of the problem is the Darkness spell almost seems to contradict itself.
This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step... Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.
Which is it, does it drop the illumination in the area one step, or does it ignore nonmagical sources of light, and then drop the illumination level one step?
If the beginning said, "This darkness causes the magical illumination level in the area to drop one step," it would work much more clearly with the second part where nonmagical sources of light don't affect an are of darkness.
Also while were on it, it might also be helpful if that second part said, "nonmagical sources of light... do not increase the light level in an area of magical darkness."
As the posts are coming in so fast, I'm starting to lose track of who is responding to who. Please use quotes or address the poster you are responding to. Thanks!
No, sunrods can never increase the light level of an area of darkness because they are not magical sources of light. In such an area, it automatically defaults to the ambient natural light level, and then reduces it one step.
I think the "defaults to the ambient natural light level" passage decides the matter. Why use the word "default" in the context of increasing the light level, if you don't intend it to include sunrods that are already present before DD is cast?
Unless I'm mistaken, it occurs to me that with how I run darkness and light levels, there is no situation where use of the darkness spell results in dim light.
That seems weird, and I may need to rethink things.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
'Ambient light' includes all light sources, magical, mundane and fusion powered.
If an underground room is lit by enough torches that every square has 'normal' light, then adding more torches/sunrods/whatever non-magical source will not increase the illumination to above 'normal'.
What the darkness spells are saying is that this still holds true when magical darkness is in the area; adding more torches makes no difference before OR after the darkness spell is cast!
What the spell is trying to avoid is someone post-darkness lighting a torch and thinking that this torch will increase the light level in the way that it would in an unlit area; the room is lit! It's just that that light has been reduced, and more torches will not increase the light level! This is what the spell both says and means!
Darkness spells say nothing about non-magical light sources being suppressed! They could say that, but they don't!
Because they don't!
|
|
As it's been stated before, I think what needs to be cleared up is what is defined as "ambient light" according to Paizo. It seems there are two sides to the argument and the only difference in opinion is ambient lighting. So if that could be cleared up better, the issue would be resolved. The FAQ helps a little but still doesn't fully engage in the entirety of the problem.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I believe that Malachi has the answer spot on! It addresses the issues with spell wording and covers what Jason said AND is very sensible to boot!
I didn't read it yet, but maybe this thread can help.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like malachi's explanation. It seems really to the point of the matter.
Me too, as that's how I've always run it in PF as well. Malachi's descriptions are how I originally understood this when switching to PF, and how I've always run it since then. This thread has given me some things to think about, but I still think I'll be running it the same. I think everyone in this thread could agree that the RAW is a tad broken, and could use some semantic clearing up.
|
I must admit I do find Malachi's idea of how torches, etc. work in deeper darkness more sensible than the idea that they utterly cease to function.
In such a case, an enclosed room lit only by normal torches would have normal light. Casting deeper darkness in such a room would lower the light level to normal darkness, but darkvision would still function. Then, extinguishing the torches would reduce the "normal" level of light in the room to ordinary darkness, which when combined with the deeper darkness spell, would become supernatural darkness, in which darkvision would not function. This is satisfying conceptually.
However, then there is the question of what happens if you light torches in such supernatural darkness. If torches cannot increase the light level in the area effect of deeper darkness, does it stay supernatural darkness, even though torches that were lit earlier allowed the room to remain at ordinary darkness? Or do they have their normal effect which is offset by the spell?
|
|
OK, let me throw an example out there. Deeper Darkness is cast in an area that has a torch. If that torch counts as ambient lighting then 20' around it is darkness and everything else is Supernatural darkness. What if someone lights a torch in a different area of the spell radius. Are you telling me that the first torch works but the second one doesn't just because the spell has been cast already? That makes no sense. They are both the same thing. So if it doesn't work after the spell is cast then it begs to say that it won't work as it's cast either.
I wonder what Ozzy would have to say about all of this. When uttered in an area of ambient normal light, he'd have to change his catch phrase "I'm the f****** prince of darkness" into "I'm the f****** prince of dim light".
There are two answers (and I'll elaborate):
Jason Bulmahn's description in a PaizoCon Q&A:
Deeper Darkness drops the light level by two, period. Don't worry about what was causing the ambient level, just drop it by two. Then lights that don't overwhelm the darkness don't help from that point.
RAW, as actually makes sense (answering Deadmoon's questions):
1) Yes
2) Partially yes. Ignore mundane light sources, in the area of darkness, but not sources that are outside the area.
3) Yes
Essentially, when asked, Jason Bulmahn said it works like ZordonAndAlpha said, but it was off the cuff. Call it an official "Rules As Intended" citation.
Here's where malachi's explanation falls apart:
Imagine that room with so many torches that the entire place is normal light. Cast deeper darkness in the middle of the room. Quench all torches. Now start relighting torches one at a time.
Q: How many torches must be lit to cause the area within the spell to transition from supernatural darkness to plain-vanilla darkness? Be sure to resolve this with regards to the FAQ ruling.
See?
***
Now, just to play devil's advocate, if a GM wanted to, he or she could simply rule that the ambient light conditions in the entorchened (shut up, it's a perfectly cromulent word) dungeon is normal light. Maybe the walls are luminescent. Maybe there's just so many torches that it doesn't matter or, like, the walls are on fire or whatever. GM makes a ruling and the dungeon is now ambiently naturally normal light. Then, yeah... deeper darkness in the middle of the room takes it to normal darkness and darkvision continues to work, the villain curses his luck, and the heroes win and loot the place.
Since the GM gets to decide exactly what "ambient" means, then that's fine.
But for the OP and his player and for the sake of the wager, that's not the scenario. If the GM ruled that the dungeon is naturally dark then the light spell or the torch, or even 50 torches, won't help.
If I were the player, I'd donate the cash to a good cause instead of paying the GM and think twice before wagering against the guy who makes the rules for the game. :) That way, everybody wins.
Jason Bulmahn's description in a PaizoCon Q&A:
Deeper Darkness drops the light level by two, period. Don't worry about what was causing the ambient level, just drop it by two. Then lights that don't overwhelm the darkness don't help from that point.
I'm fine with this. However, Zordon, I still see your argument with Wrath as a wash, since according to RAW you were wrong.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Jeff,
This issue I have is you are reading into rules something that isn't there. (Mr. Sun Wins.) We don't have any guidelines on what 'existing' lights are
(all IMHO below.)
I think part of it is there needs to be a 'barrier' between normal light sources and magical light sources. (think the Ex/SP difference)
Room lit with torches, say normal light all around. deeper darkness goes off, it drops to darkness. (because the torches are pre-existing i.e. ambient, and non-magical)
Room lit with everburning torches deeper darkness goes off, it drops to supernatural darkness (deeper darkness 'wins' against continual flame negating the magical light sources, making the dark, supernatually dark.)
Room lit with sunlight (i.e. natually brightly lit) heightened deeper darkness goes off, room drops to dim (because you can't out-heighten the sun)
Room lit with daylight heightened deeper darkness goes off, room drops to supernatural darkness, because the daylight can't compete with the higher level deeper darkness
That way just like you can be burned with a torch in an antimagic shell, you can light a torch in a darkness spell and not be completely hosed.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I must admit I do find Malachi's idea of how torches, etc. work in deeper darkness more sensible than the idea that they utterly cease to function.But how does it apply "Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness."
As I read his approach, that's only true if the area was already lit by such sources of light.
A fair and important question.
So, in an area of magical darkness, an adventurer attempts to light a non-magical torch. What happens?
Well, we refer to the line, "Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness", and discover that the spell forbids those sources from increasing the light level. How? The text is silent on the issue of 'how?'. It's an effect of darkness spells. Once the darkness is in place it prevents anything that would increase the light level from the moment it is in place to the moment the duration expires. That is, the usual spell duration. A light spell of higher level than the darkness spell is the only thing that would trump this. Even opening the shutter and letting sunlight in would not increase the light level for the duration of the darkness spell, as sunlight is not magical.
A spell having an affect for its duration is not a strange concept.
None of this detracts from the 'ambient' light present when the darkness spell appears. All normal sources of light work normally with regard to assessing the 'ambient' light level. These sources continue to function normally (and nothing in the spell description says they don't), but the light level is reduced in the way the darkness spell says it is.
It does what it says on the tin.
We don't have any guidelines on what 'existing' lights are
We have a few from page 172 of the CRB. Not a whole lot, but a few. While page 172 says an "unlit dungeon chamber" is an "area of darkness", it doesn't state what a lit dungeon chamber is. The GM just has to decide.
I would rule it as naturally dark, generally. Maybe for the sake of certain things to happen in combat, I rule it as naturally dim. Maybe you make a different call based on your combat scenario and the enemies the PCs are facing. Maybe my PCs are sick of 50% miss chances and this time, this abandoned church filled with tieflings is naturally normal light unlike all the other abandoned buildings. You just make a best guess and go with it and generally try to stay consistent contingent upon what your players might expect (or not expect if you're trying to surprise or challenge them).
The rules don't say so that the GMs can say.
I will say that Jason's "off the cuff" answer that Majuba refers to does make things much much easier. Sadly, it's not reflected in the rules as written nor in the FAQ. Yet. We can always hope that they publish some sort of optional rule system for light/darkness. I bet it'd get used much more often than the other optional rules currently published.
Until then...
|
|
Imagine that room with so many torches that the entire place is normal light. Cast deeper darkness in the middle of the room. Quench all torches. Now start relighting torches one at a time.
Q: How many torches must be lit to cause the area within the spell to transition from supernatural darkness to plain-vanilla darkness?
Just in case the post I was composing when your question appeared didn't answer this already....
Any torches being 're-lit' will not increase the illumination, as per the spell description. One effect of darkness spells is not allowing mundane light sources from increasing the illumination, once the darkness spell appears.
|
|
Jason Bulmahn's description in a PaizoCon Q&A:
Deeper Darkness drops the light level by two, period. Don't worry about what was causing the ambient level, just drop it by two. Then lights that don't overwhelm the darkness don't help from that point.
I hadn't seen this before, but what Jason says here is what I've been trying to say all along.
That's an excellent way of phrasing the effects Kazaan, and accounts for the gap in Malachi's (also excellent) rule phrasing, of a difference between initially-present and later-added light effects.
Makes Jason's statements actually make sense with the rules.
I can understand that, and I can swallow that, but my desire for simplicity is demanding that if a darkness effect is already in place, then the introduction of higher-level light sources raises the ambient light level.
According to what I'm hearing people agree with here, if there is a dim candle-lit room and darkness is cast, then it doesn't matter if the roof is removed and bright sunlight pours in -- it's still dim. I'd like for bright to become the new ambient light level, adjusted down to normal, in that case. It just feels weird to me that a casting of a darkness spell 'locks' the maximum ambient light level.
I can just imagine the weirdness. A room is lit by torches before deeper darkness is cast, which makes it dark. Somebody opens a trapdoor in the roof and lets in bright sunlight, but the light level doesn't improve. They close the trapdoor and it doesn't become any darker, then they extinguish the torches and it becomes supernaturally dark. They re-light the torch and nothing happens; they throw open the trapdoor and the light is no brighter. The darkness duration expires and the room is brightly lit. Darkness is re-cast and now the room is dimly lit.
It just feels odd.
Yes, I realize that I'm playing with game mechanics like they're toys. Shhhh. It's good design practice.
Majuba, do you have a link to Jason actually saying that? Be it video, transcript from the con, or maybe even a which year he said that at paizocon? Then maybe I can possibly youtube it to see if he is recorded as saying it. Just because that'd win me the bet outright.
I'm pretty sure I heard it on Know Direction's podcast of the Rules Seminar. I *think* it was for 2011, but might have been 2012. May also have been Chronicles Podcast.
Mind you, he does accidentally say that the normal Darkness spell drops the level by two (as I said, it's off the cuff - he even specifically says "We don't have rulebooks up here to research, and that would be a boring seminar"). The intention is clear though.
Prior to Kazaan's interpretation, I'd been trying to match the effect of that as best I could with the rules as I saw them (suppressing any light source in the area, but not outside the area), but it makes so much more sense to simply consider them beforehand. The "does not increase" language is important to make it clear that the light reduction can't be countered by a weaker light increase. But establishing a new ambient level would be different.
|
|
That's fine. But it does drop the entire rationale you used in your earlier post.
No it doesn't! What I wrote there is entirely consistent with what I posted previously!
We're just back to how to interpret the line in the text of the spell. Whether or not existing light sources full under "illumination level in the area" or aren't allowed to increase the light level.
Easy. Whatever the mundane light sources before darkness is cast, that's the 'ambient' light level. The darkness spell does what it says on the tin, and reduces that level by one or two steps depending on which darkness spell.
Also, during the duration of the spell, no non-magical source (even sunlight) can increase the illumination, as per the spell description.
This is a single coherent explanation which does not contradict itself and is entirely consistent with the spell description.
Remember, the spell itself has two effects:-
1) It reduces the level of light during the spell's duration
2) It prevents non-magical light sources from increasing the level of light during the spell's duration.