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And no deadman and the jeff. I do not agree with that at all. Because say you simply have a bigger torch. What then? Or if you have light cast on your feet say. Like I did when the whole thing started. And said, no it'd only be 20 feet darkness then deeper.
(Getting to the core beginning of why we made the bet.) ![]()
I think I should point out the definition of ambient. Ambient: Of or relating to the immediate surroundings of something: "ambient temperature" Ambient light would be the light of the area. I'm the player disputing this. (And in my opinion he is the mistaken one.) I've seen other places where people have supported my ruling and said things such as "The ruling states that mundane sources does not /increase/ the light level" And I believe their emphasis is to state that a torch lit after the spell cannot increase the level of darkness. However, being lit before the spell means that was already the natural light of the area once the spell set in motion. (I'm open to the idea a torch could be lit after and raise supernatural darkness to darkness though, but that isn't the focus of the argument.) However. If a torch is lit, then following that the spell is cast say on a rock at the person's feet, both have the same origin point ideally this way when we are talking radius on the x-y axis (not z which would be vertical or toward the ceiling as opposed to the walls.) So since the torch was already lit, that 20 feet radius around it is normal light as per the rules for a normal torch. After that 20 feet is 20 feet of dim light. Then 20 feet of darkness. So after the spell is cast on the pebble the area turns to this:
Reason being: The "ambient" light was the light in the area at the time, or the light around the area. Thus the torch is the ambient light at the time. So notch it down two steps. You end at darkness. Here is a table to help:
Bright light / Dim light
And you only use this table one time. You do not go Bright light becomes dim, which dim becomes supernatural darkness. So bright light is turned to supernatural darkness. This method is wrong. Instead you simply start at bright, end at dim. Do not continue. Stop there. That is how you use this table. ___________________________________________________
He thinks it's just. Nope everything is supernatural dark always within 60 feet.
And to add to my argument, why would they bother putting the line in, "objects radiate darkness in 60-foot radius and the light is lowered by two steps." If the light-level is always supernatural darkness because all light is mundane (even sunlight) and thus not ambient unless made by magical means, thus, deeper darkness causes supernatural dark always. Because if that was the case why not word the spell closer to as follows: "Deeper darkness creates a 60-foot radius of supernatural darkness regardless of other light sources. Deeper darkness can only be dispelled by a spell with the light descriptor such as daylight, this spell must also be of equal or higher level than that of deeper darkness. Deeper darkness can also be dispelled or counter-spelled as per normal dispel magic and counter-spell rules." Because the above wording would fully support his idea of how it works. But by the wording given in the book when you notice it says "Non-magical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not *increase* the light level in an area of darkness."
So you do not minus the torches from the starting light level of the room zavarov and ansel, because that is excluding them for no reason. The rules say they don't *increase* the light level, but that doesn't mean they didn't affect the starting point of light in the room. It just means they can't make it even brighter in the area just because they lit more and more torches or started a giant fire pit next to the pebble of deeper darkness after the fact. But if the firepit was there from the start, it. is. in. the. area. that. deeper. darkness. lowers. two. light. levels.
Thus, the rules were never broken to begin with. You just need magic of a higher level than deeper darkness or equal to it in order to raise the light level AFTER the spell was cast. But having mundane light before can cause it to be LESS than supernatural darkness (less meaning darkness or dim) if the light level caused by the mundane factor was at or above normal intensity.
TL;DR
P.S. I do notice where his confusion comes from. It can be read his way ideally, but that would become broken. This way simply makes common sense when it comes to utility. You try to light a torch in deeper darkness, cool it's lit, the darkness smothers it out because the darkness is older than the flame and thus superior even though they are the same number of levels moved in a direction on the light scale, age matters here, sorry, respect the "elder darkness". But in the case of the torch being older than the deeper darkness, the torch is the "elder light". So the elder wins. Problem solved, easy rule to live by. P.S.S. I have $40 dollars riding on this with wrath. So please, if you don't understand part of my argument, ask me a question on it if it seems confusing, I'll calmly explain my view to you. But to me, my way is usable, makes sense to me and apparently others too given the people who right off told him he was wrong. Sorry if it's long, but please do try to fully understand it, even if you don't agree. At least see where I am coming from before you spout off all "Nope. It's broken, not even arguable." And I would appreciate if possible someone to either link where a very similar answer was given by the gods of Pathfinder/Paizo who wrote the books and ruled on it in a forum. [Don't just say the book, obviously that's the problem here.] Or if possible, somebody encourage them to look over this and get us a ruling. This isn't the only thread with this issue I know. And I would appreciate it being answered once and for all by the writers and then laid to rest if it hasn't been already. Thank you all! ![]()
So I had the idea to create an artifact for monks after reading a real world tale about Thich Quang Duc. If you don't know the story wiki it and you'll see why this important event could perhaps be commemorated in a way here. Artifact Name:
Description:
Destruction:
So if you've read into the wiki enough to understand the story let me know your creative ideas. What you think of this sort of relic. And any other bits you wish to share. I hope for some positive feed back from everyone. Please don't be overly critical since this is my first idea submitted, and if you feel it's wildly overpowered remember it is for a artifact please. You can't simply go out and buy it. THANKS! ![]()
I gave my explanation of rules that make sense to me. Hope it helps. And my GM has come to me and said Manyshot and Rapid Shot cannot stack since both are Feats and blah blah blah they both change damage output so blah blah blah aren't passive... blah blah don't stack. This seemed fair. But if Vital Strike doesn't stack with manyshot either then I'm forced to basically have a lot of options on how to fire my bow, but none of them are really all the superior to just simply firing my bow as a full round action or running and then firing my bow. So really, when does a ranger's damage output ever become that good being a strait forward ranger. If you don't allow some of the feats to stack then the ranger seems as a lone class to be a total dud. You'd have to dip into other classes which would put you far behind the progression, just to be capable of having mediocre damage later on. And since you don't have a whole lot put into constitution most like since Wisdom for spells, dex for accuracy, and strength for bonus damage probably took your 3 top stats you rolled, you are basically going to die before you ever reach the stage where you get a lot of damage. Luckily my GM is not trying to be a meanie anymore so he's letting me play my ranger as a Manyshot & Vital Strike Stacking machine who can still deal a med-high amount of damage. Although I no longer am stacking Rapid shot to get an additional attack per turn at the -2. But I can make it up with the BAB giving me another attack at a lower bonus later anyway, so oh well. But if you can't power game a ranger this way, I don't see any real way to power game a normal ranger without doing multiclassing or a bunch of trait changes for races or possibly using an advance race guide to try and maximize what you can. But even then I feel you come up a little short. So you'd have to go zen or something like alchemist to even bother, which makes ranger a waste of time for paizo to have ever included. Unless things for him are fixed. Which also, I've seen some oversights in the ruling of certain magic items in the new ultimate equipment guide. In some places where "Wisdom" should be I've seen "Charisma" in it's place. I've seen weapons titled as one thing, then mentioned in the text beneath as having a different name. I've seen text limiting an item to a +5 bonus but having price listings for it up to a +7 bonus. That didn't make any sense. So my ultimate complaint is essentially. Is paizo simply getting sloppy with things? I mean if they need someone to spell check things and check grammar and things to make everything a bit easier to understand I'd be happy to apply for the position. [And I say spell check since I've noticed some "Dexerity" checks being mentioned... and I'm not quite sure what those are but I have a feeling it's "Dexterity checks" they just misspelled it. But leave it to somebody on the forums to say you must have ranks in "DEXERITY" [missing a T] as a skill to have whatever do whatever cool thing, making it impossible.] ![]()
Ok this is my understanding of what would make sense. SEEKING - This property is applied to a bow, it bestows it's property to ammunition fired from it like other properties such as corrosive bust, flaming, or icy bust. An arrow fired from a bow is said to have the seeking trait since it was aimed at a target square and an attack was made. MECHANICS OF THE ATTACK. - A Seeking bow only ignores miss chances caused by blur effects or concealment or similar effects. It still must allow the target it's AC to defend against the attack since the target still has armor on and still has a dexterity modifier allowing it to dodge the attack [however clumsily it might do so.] If a target is for example invisible, the bow need only aimed at the correct square the target occupies and fired to ignore the miss chance due to the invisibility. However, if the target is invisible the arrow does not automatically confirm the hit. Instead the attack must still overcome the AC of the target. [Special feats or abilities that change the AC to flatfooted AC or touch AC may still apply.] If the attack was deflected [missed] by an amount equal or lesser than that of the armor bonus or natural armor bonus then the arrow is seen in flight as having suddenly bounced off the invisible target. If the arrow was deflected by an amount equal to or lesser than that of the targets dexterity modifier then the arrow is said to have been dodged or ducked suddenly by the target and can be seen making a sudden drop or curve in its path seemingly unexpectedly. This change in flight is caused by the target's dodge creating a small vacuum between the target and the arrow, sucking the arrow in the direction the target veered, however still not striking the target. If the arrow missed by equal to or less than both the dex modifier and the armor bonus of the target then the arrow is said to have bounced just narrowly off the armor or hide of the target. This causes a larger redirection in flight than from a dodge but less than from a bounce off armor.
This solves the problem of knowing the DM had to check the AC of the target and you can see that he did out of game. Thus solving the fact you may or may not have meta-gamed to figure out he is currently in that square. For a hit you simply see the arrow stuck in mid air, and possibly even moving up and down as the invisible creature breathes or even moves. However, shooting at the wrong square the arrow simply zooms through the air and comes to a sudden stop falling silently strait to the ground followed by a possible "tink" noise against a hard floor. An arrow caught in flight by arrow snatching may appear to have simply been a choice of a wrong square if the invisible creature prompt drops the arrow to the ground without any further motion of the hand. This to me makes the most sense. However the rules don't say enough about it as is. So just saying the arrows gain that quality once fired makes sense since you wouldn't throw the stupid bow at them and some magician must have thought that a bow that could fire things without missing would be a good idea. They wouldn't have thought throwing the bow at the opponent would have been a good idea. Otherwise they weren't a very wise/intelligent wizard to craft such magic now were they? It's an over sight. The bow is supposed to make the arrows fly straighter basically. Or you can say the bow makes the wearer able to shoot more accurately. Either way were saying the bow shoots the arrow as if there was no blur or concealment. But to say you are throwing the bow... that's just a huge bunch of bullocks. So yes, the simple fix is to add that little "2" to things like distance and seeking properties. However we still leave the brilliant energy alone just because it says we should put it on the ammunition not the bow to avoid OP. If they could just find better wording [or even use mine if they want] it'd make a bit more sense to everyone I think. Does this make sense to everybody easier? Because a bow that has to be thrown at the enemy does to me. And if it does to you then it's probably because you just hate rangers or bow users, in which case you should notice you don't have to play one, but you still might have a really nice ranger in your party who saves your favorite character you've spent so much time on from death. So don't be afraid to help him out a little by agreeing to the simple idea he shouldn't have to throw his bow at things to ignore the miss chance from things like blur. Instead he should just be able to shoot at it and ignore the miss chance that way. Anything else is silly.
"Is this an issue of nitpicking the wording of the rules or is this an actual issue?"
So yes it's an issue. Let's fix it. I don't like having to go on "intended" rules with things. I'd like them to just be rules. You know? Especially if they make sense that way. ![]()
Don't know about the vital strike not working with many shot. But I know manyshot would cause both arrows to hit because it is one attack roll for both arrows. So if that attack roll is a confirmed crit, you crit... on both. Also Seeking deals with cover too, hence why IPC isn't needed. Also with seeking so long as you can see them or know where they are if they are invisible, you will hit if you confirm the attack. However, if there is a wall between you and them so you cannot see any part of them, you can't shoot an arrow the way they do bullets in the "Wanted" movie most everyone has seen. You simply can't attack them, or if you try you automatically hit the wall. Unless you have some sort of ricochet feat of course. Essentially seeking is a type of magic that so long as you have something to aim at any miss chances are completely negated, you will always have your arrow hit exactly where you intend to place it. If you shoot however for an invisible enemy you don't have to worry about seeing him, just knowing which square he is in. Footprints, someone having cast light on their armor or body so they produce light no matter where they go even if invisible, or any other trick you have for finding the invisible foe. Once you found him, your arrow will strike him so long as you beat his AC. He won't get any bonuses to AC because in short no matter where he is, you aren't aiming for where he has additional cover, you are aiming for what you see clear as day. Seeking states, "The Weapon veers towards it's target, negating ANY miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment." Don't confuse "such as" to mean "only" because that possibility is negated when you have a word such as "any" before it in the sentence. Also vital strike says it is used when you use the "attack action" not the "standard action". Since a full round attack is an attack I'd think that'd make it an attack action. But I'll look in combat a second... Doesn't actually in any way say that a full round attack is not an attack action. So it'd be to DM discretion. [After all it could just as easily be called the "full-round attack action" and make sense.] EDIT:
I stick by my original statements. And I should maybe add that alpha will by the time I hit level 11 be large, wearing leather armor, possibly magical, have toughness, be stealthy, fast, well trained, and great for keeping everyone else far far away. He might even start taking intimidate to scare them right until they run away screaming. Basically getting a Co-Hort for free? Why not add to the party? Also why not have something between you and the enemy besides your parties front line fighters? Something you can tell to stay and protect you rather than charge off uncontrollably as other players will often enough do. ![]()
Hi, my name is Zordon, the ORIGINAL Power Ranger.
To tell you the honest truth I think normal rangers can be very OP with the right feats and equipment. For example, don't take improved precise shot [IPS]... EVER! I have a seeking bow with covers that much better than IPS ever would. My ranger has as follows at lvl 8 ---Race: Elf--- ---Stats---
STR: 16 +3
AC: 22 = 10 + 5 + 3 + 2 + 2
Touch AC: 18 [or 20 with cats grace] Flat-Footed AC: 17 CMB: 11 CMD: 26 [or 28 with cats grace] BAB: +8/+3 ---Saves:---
---Feats:--- 1st lvl:
2nd :
3rd lvl:
4th lvl:
5th lvl:
6th lvl:
7th lvl:
8th lvl:
At 9th which is still to come I'm considering many feats, but the free feat of evasion is nice to have because it means I can literally dodge lightning, and that my friend is a very nice feat to have for free. =] My equipment is as follows:
Since the mask is a vicious looking red to those of evil alignment, I must be the "Red Ranger" lol.
Anyway,
My wolf, Alpha, has a few random feats but he's mostly just something to put between me and the enemy until he gets large at [my] level 10. I managed to get an "Oathbow" which will be good for the BBEG at the end of a given quest chain in the campaign. But don't expect one to be handed to you the way mine was. Everything else was bought/crafted/found along the way. After my dex bonus on attacks, magic, point blank, vital strike, deadly aim, rapid shot, manyshot, and my highest possible favored enemy bonus, I end up with this for attacks and damage:
Second Shot does:
Third Shot:
If all shots hit possible damage is: 66 to 108 damage
And my spells which can buff my damage output and my accuracy to hit just make me amazing all the dang time. It's near impossible for me to miss every shot in a round, and a single hit still does decent damage, especially when I use Gravity Bow to make my bow do one size category more damage, meaning 1d8 per damage roll becomes 2d6, and a vital strike+manyshot attack means essentially 4d6+bonuses and another 4d6+bonuses... and it could still crit for x3. I went against a Behir that had enslaved all of my party but me into mining away for hours, I was only buffed with cat's grace didn't have gravity bow to use, and I had taken a negative level earlier in the dungeon. I positioned myself in a doorway it couldn't get through to melee me, I shot and killed it in three rounds. I only took 16 damage. I asked the DM what CR it was, it was 8, with my negative level I was set at 7. I killed it single handed, like it was nothing... I am now going to try and get my DM to allow me to get an Ioun Stone that plays music whenever I want, and the only song I need it to play is, "GO GO POWER RANGER!". So in short, become one of the power rangers, I'm one, and I'm Zordon, so you can be too!
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