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It seems like if sunlight were intended to be regarded as a nonmagical source of light for the purposes of the darkness spell, it would have been listed. I know no example list can be exhaustive, but the sun is qualitatively different than these other sources.
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.
That's a new interpretation and an interesting one. It seems to follow the text of the rules and mostly common sense, assuming that sunlight and similar things "set" light levels rather than "increase" them.
It's a little ugly, particularly when light of the same level, but from different sources ends up at different levels. Overlapping increases to normal vs set to normal.
Sunlight is listed in the text by the table as 'bright light', so I would say it "sets" the light to that level.
Overlapping increases seems to be what's intended, although there may be a maximum level dependant on the source (so three torches overlapping wouldn't go higher than 'normal').
It's the outer areas where the increases occur anyhow. I think it was quite helpful that the rules state that the mundane sources don't increase things, so as to reduce the math required to the rare occasions a player brings in an item with heightened continual flame, or heightens a light spell to 4th (and thus consuming a 4th level slot). If players are going to waste resources on a couple of heightened light spells just to get that little bit extra distance due to the overlap, instead of using a few mundane torches and darkvision, I'll map it out.
I like this.
A lot.
A bone of contention has been what the spell means by the word 'increases'. This is something I never considered, and it may be the answer we have been looking for.
The sun is not listed on that table. Would 'normal' be direct sunlight, and indirect sunlight 'increases'?
The sun is mentioned in the text. Direct sunlight (as is the daylight spell within 60') is considered 'bright light'. Indirect sunlight, such as a room with the window open or, as mentioned in the text, 'under a forest canopy during the day' is set to 'normal' light. The sun is funny that way, I guess.
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*shrug*
I guess I just read that different than you do Malachi, which is where all the wrangling comes from. To me, 'stops from increasing light' means 'stops working' since that's the entire purpose of a light source, to increase the light, and if you stop it, it ceases to work.
And no, I didn't give sunlight a separate category, it is already the category of 'BRIGHT LIGHT' (noon day sun is bright light). The only places the sunlight can reach is the floor under the skylight (again, noon day sunlight shines straight down). Ergo, the ambient light level in that 10x20 area is bright, but it's normal everywhere else. Nothing special about the sunlight other than how bright it is.
Unless you're suggesting the sun (the source of the bright light) is inside the area of effect of the spell. It's not. The source of that light is outside the source of the spell, thus the spell does not prevent it from raising the level of light in it's effective range.
Please think that through again, Malachi.
Why doesn't the sun 'stop working'? If you read the spell to mean that only light sources that are within the darkness radiance are prevented from increasing the light level, then all I have to do to render darkness worthless is to light a torch in the square adjacent to the radiance, and that light will illuminate it's normal radius. Is it that easy to defeat the spell? Whatever the sentence about not increasing the light level actually means, it can only mean one thing at a time! Either it only supresses light if the light source is within the darkness radiance (in which case a torch adjacent illuminates the normal radius, even within the darkness radiance), or it only stops the light level increasing within the radiance, irrespective of the location of the source (in which case the sunlight stops working).
@TheJeff
Is the sun inside the radius of the spell? No? Then the sun is unaffected, it continues to put out light and increase the ambient level of light in the areas it can reach.
@Malachi
Yep, that's pretty much it. You could put 1 torch in every 5 foot square around the area of darkness, and they would not be affected, and they would raise the ambient level of light in the area, which would affect the deeper darkness spell. However, they wouldn't have all that much effect, other than stopping the 'can't use darkvision' component of the spell. No matter how many torches you put, you can't, per RAW, use them to increase the level above 'lit', brightly lit requires a magic spell or the sun.
So, if you surrounded the DD spell with torches, all 5 feet outside the area of effect, the deeper darkness spell would still make things dark, just not supernaturally dark, in it's area. So DV would work.
EDIT : And Malachi, please think about what would happen if the Sun stopped working just because someone cast a DD spell, would you? That's a bit extreme I think, having the entire planet go black because someone cast DD in sunlight.
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Coming late to the game, but my interpretation focuses on the word increases in the spell definition.
Looking at the Vision and Light rules, and the Light Sources and Illumination Table, the 'normal' column lists the radius where the light around the object is considered 'normal' illumination. The second column 'increased' refers to the light level increasing within that area (outside of the 'normal' area).
My interpretation is this: A light source, regardless of what it is, sets the light level around it up to a certain radius, and increases the light level beyond that (to twice the radius). Darkness lowers the level of the light according to what the level is set to, but prevents whatever is causing the light to increase the illumination within the area beyond the initial radius (unless it is from a higher level spell).
I have a long example in a spoiler here:
** spoiler omitted **...
Intriguing! I've never heard an interpretation like that before (which is exciting to me). I'll have to do some further reading with your idea in mind. Thanks for contributing!
Actually,
The sun is a torch, the biggest torch/lantern in the solar system. A torch burns wood for fuel to create fire and light. A lantern burns hydrocarbons to generate fire and light. The sun burns hydrogen for fuel to create fire and light.
Three items of the same class, just on different scales.
I don't think you can expect the guy to "rules lawyer-check" his speech when talking casually.
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I don't think that 'the sentence' intends to apply to light sources, whether within the darkness radiance or not. I think it applies to light levels within the darkness radiance.
If I'm wrong, it means that deeper darkness can be rendered moot by having lots of torches outside the radiance whose light spills unabated within the dark radiance. I believe that the purpose of 'the sentence' is to prevent the spell being made useless by lighting more torches!
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I don't think that 'the sentence' intends to apply to light sources, whether within the darkness radiance or not.
Are you referring to this sentence?
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.
Or the next one?
Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
Or is there some other thing you meant by 'the sentence'?
I have to say I'm tickled that Mr. Silverclaw objects to definitions from outside the book.
-Durngrun out
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I don't think that 'the sentence' intends to apply to light sources, whether within the darkness radiance or not.Are you referring to this sentence?
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.Or the next one?
Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.Or is there some other thing you meant by 'the sentence'?
Selective quoting, Jiggy, or lack of attention span?
The full quote was:-
I don't think that 'the sentence' intends to apply to light sources, whether within the darkness radiance or not. I think it applies to light levels within the darkness radiance.
That would make the first one:-
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.
And the second one:-
Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
What I 'meant by that sentence' is that darkness does nothing to prevent light sources from working, in or out of the darkness radiance. It prevents the light level from increasing, within the darkness radiance, for as long as the darkness persists in that area.
Malachi,
Let us look at your position for a second. My interpretation above, with the examples, you admit is internally consist and easily resolved. It works across multiple instances, and is relatively easily adjudicated.
Your interpretation leads to conflicts within the rules, and basically requires additional book keeping or renders the spell inert.
May I suggest, respectfully, that when a given bit of rules can be interpreted in one of two ways, equally well, that the correct interpretation is the one that does not cause internal inconsistencies and additional headaches and rules catch-22's?
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Malachi,
Let us look at your position for a second. My interpretation above, with the examples, you admit is internally consist and easily resolved. It works across multiple instances, and is relatively easily adjudicated.
We could all write a version which is more clear than the one in the CRB.
Your interpretation leads to conflicts within the rules, and basically requires additional book keeping or renders the spell inert.
What contradictions are these?
May I suggest, respectfully, that when a given bit of rules can be interpreted in one of two ways, equally well, that the correct interpretation is the one that does not cause internal inconsistencies and additional headaches and rules catch-22's?
I agree completely.
My interpretation of the RAW (as opposed to how it should be if it were fixed) is that the spell cannot affect the world before it is cast or before the dark radiance enters an area, so it cannot eliminate non-magical light sources before it takes effect!
What happens is that the ambient light level is checked as the spell is cast or the dark radiance enters an area. That ambient light is made up of all non-magical sources (I trust there is no disagreement about how it interacts with magical light).
The spell lowers that ambient light level by the required number of steps.
While the spell is in effect in any area, the dark radiance (as well as making it darker) prevents any non-magical light source (wherever that source is located) from increasing the light level within the dark radiance.
The sun, moon and stars are non-magical light sources.
All of this is consistent with the RAW (I know there is more than one way to read it, but this does not contradict the RAW), and works without a problem.
If you can see a problem with how this would work, let me know.
Having to obey the game rules on using initiative and taking turns to act is not a hardship any player of the game can complain about.
Actually,
The sun is a torch, the biggest torch/lantern in the solar system. A torch burns wood for fuel to create fire and light. A lantern burns hydrocarbons to generate fire and light. The sun burns hydrogen for fuel to create fire and light.
Three items of the same class, just on different scales.
Technically, no. Torches burn wood releasing heat. The sun fuses atoms together thru intense gravity so there is some difference. No number of torches equal the sun. They both produce light and heat but in different ways. I imagine you (and the others arguing this point) have some awareness of this and are purposely ignoring it. And rightly so to some degree. It is not in the CRB and would not be common knowledge. However, the book does call out torches and laterns are called as not working. If you want to add the sum to that list you can. I disagree with you.
Coming late to the game, but my interpretation focuses on the word increases in the spell definition.
Looking at the Vision and Light rules, and the Light Sources and Illumination Table, the 'normal' column lists the radius where the light around the object is considered 'normal' illumination. The second column 'increased' refers to the light level increasing within that area (outside of the 'normal' area).
My interpretation is this: A light source, regardless of what it is, sets the light level around it up to a certain radius, and increases the light level beyond that (to twice the radius). Darkness lowers the level of the light according to what the level is set to, but prevents whatever is causing the light to increase the illumination within the area beyond the initial radius (unless it is from a higher level spell).
I have a long example in a spoiler here:
** spoiler omitted **...
This makes an insane amount of sense. If the term increase is consistent in the Vision and Light section with the term increase in the darkness spell, you've got yourself a winner, winner, chicken dinner in my estimation.
As thejeff pointed out, though, that adjudication seems to be contradicting by Jason's ramblings.
Speaking of Jason's ramblings. I went back and listened to the entire segment from Know Direction, and I'm placing the transcript, taken to the best of my ability, here as a spoiler, because I think it really makes entirely clear the RAI.
Q: I liked the post that you made that says the darkness spell considers the ambient light level. If you’re underground and there’s torches around, your post suggested that it would snuff out all the torches.
Jason: Technically it doesn’t snuff out the torches. It makes them no longer cast out light.
Q: Right, but if you were to cast it outside this reduces the light level a little bit because the sun’s already out there.
Jason: Well I mean the spell description says it reduces the ambient light level in the area by one category.
Q: But it also says that it eliminates, or blocks all other light sources?
Jason: Of a lower level.
Q: Yeah, so if the ambient light source is torch light and it eliminates it, do you eliminate it and then reduce it, or do you reduce it and then eliminate it?
Jason: If you’re eliminating it one way or the other, especially if you’re underground, you are still going down to black, right?
Q: Yeah.
Jason: So the order of operations there doesn’t really matter, I think generally speaking you do eliminate it.
Other Voice: It might matter if you go from dim or from darkness.
Jason: Yeah, it could, I think generally speaking, I think the more time you spend tracing light arc outlines, you know what I mean? It’s darkness. It’s this area. It’s dark in there. It’s spooky. What’s in there, Drow? They could stab you. I’m not trying to be flippant, I’m just saying that, generally speaking, what we’re trying to aim for is something that’s relatively easy to adjudicate, and just saying: okay, so there’s a giant cavern it’s lit up by a bunch of torches, that makes it standard light. You cast darkness in the middle of it that area drops two steps. I think that’s a fine adjudication. I think the same adjudication also works if you’re like: okay, you’re in a 10x10 room with torches making it super-bright in there and you cast darkness in there, well it doesn’t drop it two steps, it just shuts those off. Now it’s super dark, that’s fine. Say, we’re up on the surface, the sun’s up in the sky and I cast darkness, it’s bright light, it only goes down to dim, because it’s the sun, and it’s not within the radius of the darkness.
Then a bit of hilarity ensues where they are discussing actually casting darkness on the sun…
After reading that I think I finally get what he's been saying. During that entire broadcast, I think he is clearly talking only about the spell Darkness (except for at the end in the bit with the sun, because he says it goes from bright to dim, and only Deeper Darkness could do that), which only has the ability to drop the light level one category. Yet he says, "that [huge cavern lit by torches] drops two steps." Why? Because he's saying the spell should make it dark, that's the point. If you're eliminating the torch light within the radius, that's what happens, it goes down two steps to darkness instead of dim. Then later he's referencing a small room lit up by torches and says it's "super-bright" which isn't really a category of light that torches can produce, but I think his point was, you got a lot of normal light in a small amount of space. He says, "it doesn't drop it two steps, it just shuts those off." Probably because those are the ONLY sources of light in the room, and darkness is supposed to make it dark. In that instance how does it do that? It "eliminates" the light from the torches.
So what's the point? The point is, the spell is supposed to make it dark within the radius of the spell. I really think he's saying adjudicate it however the heck you want to, but the purpose of the spell is to create darkness within that radius. I also think that's why he then talks about outside with the sun, because he wants the audience to know that it won't always actually bring the light level down to dark, but that the ultimate purpose of the spell is to do just that.
After all that, and all the other discussions, I've come to the conclusion that nonmagical light does not function at all within the radius of effect of a darkness spell. Why? Because the purpose of the spell is to make it dark in there!! Same thing for deeper darkness. What's the purpose of the spell? To make it so dark that even darkvision doesn't work. Will it always do that? No, but in most cases (barring being outdoors with the giant torch in the sky shining), you can certainly adjudicate that it would, and after all this, I do believe that's the point.
May I suggest, respectfully, that when a given bit of rules can be interpreted in one of two ways, equally well, that the correct interpretation is the one that does not cause internal inconsistencies and additional headaches and rules catch-22's?I agree completely.
My interpretation of the RAW (as opposed to how it should be if it were fixed) is that the spell cannot affect the world before it is cast or before the dark radiance enters an area, so it cannot eliminate non-magical light sources before it takes effect!
What happens is that the ambient light level is checked as the spell is cast or the dark radiance enters an area. That ambient light is made up of all non-magical sources (I trust there is no disagreement about how it interacts with magical light).
The spell lowers that ambient light level by the required number of steps.
While the spell is in effect in any area, the dark radiance (as well as making it darker) prevents any non-magical light source (wherever that source is located) from increasing the light level within the dark radiance.
The sun, moon and stars are non-magical light sources.
All of this is consistent with the RAW (I know there is more than one way to read it, but this does not contradict the RAW), and works without a problem.
If you can see a problem with how this would work, let me know.
Sure, here goes...
1) If you only use the ambient light at casting time, then you end up with the spell being unstopable and a permanent black wall for it's duration. Cast on a copper piece in a room with dim light, put copper in pocket. Walk out into noon-day sun, toss coin down. When cast, the light level was dim, so supernatural darkness results. I now walk into bright daylight, toss the coin, and bright daylight, which is not supposed to be affected to Supernatural Darkness by casting the spell in it, is utterly blocked out.
2) Create an object that's use activated, continuous darkness, activate it in dim light, repeat from above, now supernatural darkness can be yours any time, any place, regardless of ambient light level where you are.
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@mdt:
the ambient light level is checked as the spell is cast or the dark radiance enters an area
Cast deeper darkness on a coin in a dimly lit area, put said coin in pocket, walk outside to a sunlit area, get coin out. What happens?
The ambient light is bright (sunlight) when the dark radiance is brought into the area, so it drops two steps to dim.
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Speaking of Jason's ramblings. I went back and listened to the entire segment from Know Direction, and I'm placing the transcript, taken to the best of my ability, here as a spoiler, because I think it really makes entirely clear the RAI.
** spoiler omitted **
After reading that I think I finally get what he's been saying. During that entire broadcast, I think he is clearly talking only about the spell Darkness (except for at the end in the bit with the sun, because he says it goes from bright to dim, and only Deeper Darkness could do that), which only has the ability to drop the light level one category. Yet he says, "that [huge cavern lit by torches] drops two steps." Why? Because he's saying the spell should make it dark, that's the point. If you're eliminating the torch light within the radius, that's what happens, it goes down two steps to darkness instead of dim. Then later he's referencing a small room lit up by torches and says it's "super-bright" which isn't really a category of light that torches can produce, but I think his point was, you got a lot of normal light in a small amount of space. He says, "it doesn't drop it two steps, it just shuts those off." Probably because those are the ONLY sources of light in the room, and darkness is supposed to make it dark. In that instance how does it do that? It "eliminates" the light from the torches.So what's the point? The point is, the spell is supposed to make it dark within the radius of the spell. I really think he's saying adjudicate it however the heck you want to, but the purpose of the spell is to create darkness within that radius. I also think that's why he then talks about outside with the sun, because he wants the audience to know that it won't always actually bring the light level down to dark, but that the ultimate purpose of the spell is to do just that.
After all that, and all the other discussions, I've come to the conclusion that nonmagical light does not function at all within the radius of
Yes. :)
My take is (I believe) quite straightforward. At any moment in time, calculate level of light in a given square from all sources outside the area affected by the darkness effect. Apply light-level reduction from darkness. Non-magical light sources can then not affect the level of light upwards (see also, magical light from a spell of lower level) inside the area affected.
In other words, torches and lanterns and candles and anything else inside the darkness area do nothing to alter the light level within it (which matches the rules), whether they were in it to start with or brought in afterwards.
It might not answer every single edge case argument, but it certainly seems to match RAI (darkness reduces the light-level and non-magical sources of light cannot be used to make the dark area brighter).
@Malachi
Then what is the difference between the coin coming out of the pocket, and the sun rising after you have cast the spell in the town square? The ambient light level rose in both situations. Same as if someone put 20 torches around the area of the spell in order to raise the ambient level of light outside the area of spell effect.
You seem to be arguing for my interpretation, or else leaving yourself in the situation where you decide when to account for changes in ambient light rather than having a hard-fast rule.
I like this. I think the extra context does clarify his intent.
Of course, that's partly because it agrees with what I've been saying all along. :)And it's simple and doesn't rely on parsing the text in weird ways or tracking the movement of sources in or out. The light level with a given set of sources is always the same regardless of the order of operations.
In normal adventuring circumstances, Darkness makes things dark; Deeper Darkness makes them really dark. Outside, in the sunlight, they're not so effective. Maybe other extremely powerful light sources get treated like sunlight by GM fiat. Simple. Straightforward. No weirdnesses in play.
Yeah, I kind of figured you'd like that. =P
Really, when you look at what Jason is intending there, which I of course hear as RAI, it's pretty darn elegant. Barring a magical source of light of equal (and sometimes even if it's equal - depending on if you're getting light from the sun somewhere) or greater value, Darkness makes it dark. Barring a magical source of light etc. Deeper Darkness makes it so dark that even darkvision doesn't work.Easy to adjudicate, no worries about drawing light arcs, no worries about which came first the chicken or the egg. Incidentally it is also very similar to how I had resolved to adjudicate it in the future anyway, with the one exception that I had thought to let the spells even make it dark or supernaturally dark even in the sun, just because that's easier for me to remember and adjudicate.
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@Malachi
Then what is the difference between the coin coming out of the pocket, and the sun rising after you have cast the spell in the town square? The ambient light level rose in both situations. Same as if someone put 20 torches around the area of the spell in order to raise the ambient level of light outside the area of spell effect.
You seem to be arguing for my interpretation, or else leaving yourself in the situation where you decide when to account for changes in ambient light rather than having a hard-fast rule.
If I understand correctly, the hard and fast rule he's using is that introducing magical darkness to an area lowers from the existing ambient light. Changing the ambient light after that does not increase the light in the dark area.
Introducing magical darkness to an area can be either the initial casting of the spell or moving the darkness emitting object to a new area. Both are treated the same way.
You've got it, thejeff!
Just to be extra clear, the dark radiance not only lowers the light level by a number of steps, the dark radiance also prevents non-magical light sources (no matter where those sources are located) from increasing the light level within the dark radiance.
So torches and lanterns can increase the light level (directly contradicting the spell description in the book) if they are there first? Mundane beats magic if its grandfathered in?
You have a dark room, cast deeper darkness, then super dark.
Same room with torches, cast deeper darkness, then merely dark.
I see that as torches raising the light level.
I see that as deeper darkness affecting the (as we are referring to it) ambient light level. The note regarding non-magical light sources is so that lighting a torch (or taking a lit torch) inside the darkness has no effect.
Yes, the wording is ambiguous, but it really does make the most sense to me if it's read as "Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level if they are in an area of darkness." Alternatively (so as to not add to word count) "Nonmagical sources of light in an area of darkness, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level."
As Durngrun points out Malachi, your position is internally inconsistent, as it allows mundane light to affect the DD based on time, rather than position. Not the other way around. My way is internally consistent, and works regardless of moving the field, or time passing.
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So torches and lanterns can increase the light level (directly contradicting the spell description in the book) if they are there first? Mundane beats magic if its grandfathered in?
You have a dark room, cast deeper darkness, then super dark.
Same room with torches, cast deeper darkness, then merely dark.I see that as torches raising the light level.
A room is dark. A torch is lit. That torch raised the light level, from 'dark' to 'normal'.
A second torch is lit. It does not raise the light level.
The second torch is removed. The first torch is still shedding light. The first torch is not raising the light level, the level is already 'normal' around it. If it burned forever, it would not be raising the light level. If the light level rose, then it would be 'bright'!
The burning torch is not raising the light level, it is keeping the light level constant. If darkness is cast, it's not the torch increasing the light level, it's the darkness decreasing the light level.
The spell doesn't affect light sources directly at all! It affects the light level, within the dark radiance, reducing the light level and preventing the light level from being increased!
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Looking some more at this passage:
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
I'm now thinking that "in an area of darkness" qualifies "increase the light level" rather than qualifying "sources of light".
These rules are stated in this format:
"X does Y in location Z."
If the "sources outside the area still affect the light inside the area" theory were the intent, we'd instead have:
"X in location Z does Y."
So in the end I think the interpretation where a torch outside the radius gets to keep affecting the lighting within the radius just doesn't fit.
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As Durngrun points out Malachi, your position is internally inconsistent, as it allows mundane light to affect the DD based on time, rather than position. Not the other way around. My way is internally consistent, and works regardless of moving the field, or time passing.
Time matters insofar as the darkness spells work only within the spell duration and only where the dark radiance is present at any particular moment.
The spell cannot affect anything after it is gone, and cannot affect anything before it arrives.
Specifically, it cannot affect the ambient light before it comes into existence and then start to reduce the light level! The spell works straight away, reducing the ambient light level, and while it is in existence it prevents the light level increasing within the dark radiance.
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Looking some more at this passage:
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.I'm now thinking that "in an area of darkness" qualifies "increase the light level" rather than qualifying "sources of light".
These rules are stated in this format:
"X does Y in location Z."If the "sources outside the area still affect the light inside the area" theory were the intent, we'd instead have:
"X in location Z does Y."So in the end I think the interpretation where a torch outside the radius gets to keep affecting the lighting within the radius just doesn't fit.
At last! : )
It took a while, but now we agree on this much, at least : )
A room is dark. A torch is lit. That torch raised the light level, from 'dark' to 'normal'.
A second torch is lit. It does not raise the light level.
The second torch is removed. The first torch is still shedding light. The first torch is not raising the light level, the level is already 'normal' around it. If it burned forever, it would not be raising the light level. If the light level rose, then it would be 'bright'!
You seem to be saying that because the second torch cannot raise the light more than the first torch then the first torch is not raising the light at all. However you admit the first torch is raising the light level because without the first torch then the room is dark regardless of the spell. Again mundane trumps magic if mundane is first.
I think honestly I'm at the point where it's all just arguing back and forth over the same thing. I'll just bow out, enjoy your interpretation, and hope it works well in your games.
Short of an FAQ from the staff, I don't think this thread is going to come to a consensus.
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You seem to be saying that because the second torch cannot raise the light more than the first torch then the first torch is not raising the light at all. However you admit the first torch is raising the light level because without the first torch then the room is dark regardless of the spell. Again mundane trumps magic if mundane is first.
A room is dark. A torch is lit. That torch raised the light level, from 'dark' to 'normal'.
A second torch is lit. It does not raise the light level.
The second torch is removed. The first torch is still shedding light. The first torch is not raising the light level, the level is already 'normal' around it. If it burned forever, it would not be raising the light level. If the light level rose, then it would be 'bright'!
No, the first torch raised (past tense) the light level, from 'dark' to 'normal'. Now, it is no longer raising the light level, it is keeping the light level constant, at 'normal'.
This 'normal' light is the ambient light to which the spell refers.
If all non-magical sources of light were discounted before the darkness spell takes effect(!) then 'ambient light' would always be 'ambient darkness'!
No, the first torch raised (past tense) the light level, from 'dark' to 'normal'. Now, it is no longer raising the light level, it is keeping the light level constant, at 'normal'.
This 'normal' light is the ambient light to which the spell refers.
If all non-magical sources of light were discounted before the darkness spell takes effect(!) then 'ambient light' would always be 'ambient darkness'!
So once you light the torch the light level is raised and set, then you can just get rid of the torch because it has done its job? The light level has been raised, it doesn't continually raise the light level for the duration of the torch?
I'm actually fine with ambient light always being ambient dark but I did point out earlier that I believe natural light to be the ambient light. I understand you view the sun as a torch (in the game world) but I see them differently.
(Quick snide comment) Is it always daytime because the sun "raised" the light level and then set?
You seem to be saying that because the second torch cannot raise the light more than the first torch then the first torch is not raising the light at all. However you admit the first torch is raising the light level because without the first torch then the room is dark regardless of the spell. Again mundane trumps magic if mundane is first.
A room is dark. A torch is lit. That torch raised the light level, from 'dark' to 'normal'.
A second torch is lit. It does not raise the light level.
The second torch is removed. The first torch is still shedding light. The first torch is not raising the light level, the level is already 'normal' around it. If it burned forever, it would not be raising the light level. If the light level rose, then it would be 'bright'!
No, the first torch raised (past tense) the light level, from 'dark' to 'normal'. Now, it is no longer raising the light level, it is keeping the light level constant, at 'normal'.
This 'normal' light is the ambient light to which the spell refers.
If all non-magical sources of light were discounted before the darkness spell takes effect(!) then 'ambient light' would always be 'ambient darkness'!
In photography, ambient light plainly refers to light that is already existing without your intervention. i.e. the sun, moon, torches (that were already there that you did not bring/stage), etc. With this definition, if you walked into a dungeon that was already filled with torches, then the ambient light would be normal (within 20' of each torch) or dim (the 20-40' between torches). Any light source you brought with you (or that the enemy was carrying) would cease to increase the light level within the area of darkness.
I know that this is a highly judgmental call by the DM on what would be considered as per-existing, but this does solve issues with natural light and helps set the stage for what the "default ambient lighting" is.
I read "torches and lanterns do not work" as "torches and laterns do not work." We will have to agree to disagree, I guess.
I read "torches and lanterns do not work" as "torches and laterns do not work." We will have to agree to disagree, I guess.
The default illumination for any indoor area is 'Darkness' regardless of any extra light sources existing or brought in. Outside, the default illumination is dependent on the current weather (i.e. cloudy, day, night, etc.). If indoors, and a window/door has direct access to the outside, then it would be up to the DM to determine what level of light (generally dim or normal unless the sun is glaring directly on the opening) and how far it extends inside.
Based on the definitions below, Darkness reduces illumination, and specifically states that non-magical sources do not increase the illumination in an area of darkness. Per the Vision and Light rules, all of the source of light provide illumination (there is no "setting" ambient light or any references to ambient lighting) thus the non-magical sources of light would not raise the illumination. Also, for those saying that the sun isn't magical, a link to the Deeper Darkness spell has an FAQ from JJ that details the effects of Deeper Darkness outside.
This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
See Table: Light Sources and Illumination for the radius that a light source illuminates and how long it lasts. The increased entry indicates an area outside the lit radius in which the light level is increased by one step (from darkness to dim light, for example).
In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. Some creatures, such as those with light sensitivity and light blindness, take penalties while in areas of bright light. A creature can't use Stealth in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover. Areas of bright light include outside in direct sunshine and inside the area of a daylight spell.
Normal light functions just like bright light, but characters with light sensitivity and light blindness do not take penalties. Areas of normal light include underneath a forest canopy during the day, within 20 feet of a torch, and inside the area of a light spell.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
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I read "torches and lanterns do not work" as "torches and laterns do not work." We will have to agree to disagree, I guess.
The line 'torches and lanterns do not work' does not appear in the spell!
What does appear is 'torches and lanterns do not increase the light level'!
Also, no-one doubts that the sun is a different thing than a torch, but the only relevant fact for the purpose of the spell is whether the sun is magical or non-magical.
Without making up your own rules, the sun is non-magical.
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So once you light the torch the light level is raised and set, then you can just get rid of the torch because it has done its job? The light level has been raised, it doesn't continually raise the light level for the duration of the torch?
No, the torch is not continually raising the light level. Once the torch initially raised the light level, it then continually keeps the light level unchanged, at 'normal'.
Removing the torch would change the light level, decreasing it from 'normal' to 'dark'.
The spell does not prevent non-magical sources from keeping the light level unchanged, it prevents them from increasing the light level.
In the game, the purpose of illumination is not to change the light level specifically, but to obtain a certain level of ambient light! The initial change in light level from 'dark' to 'normal' is just a means to an end. The desired end is 'normal' ambient light.
In increasing order, the light levels in the game are:-
supernaturally dark<dark<dim<normal<bright
A light source can work to change the light level, increasing it to a set level. This instantaneous effect is followed by a continuing, unchanging light level, until such time as something changes which also results in a change to the light level.
Examples include: opening a shutter to let the sunshine in, extinguishing the torch, casting darkness, etc.
Something has to change in order for the light level to change. The constantly burning torch is not changing, nor is the light level. Taking the torch away, bringing it back, the sun rising or setting, these are all changes which change the light level.
Darkness spells do two things: they change the light level by decreasing it, and they also prevent the light level increasing again.
I read "torches and lanterns do not work" as "torches and laterns do not work." We will have to agree to disagree, I guess.The line 'torches and lanterns do not work' does not appear in the spell!
What does appear is 'torches and lanterns do not increase the light level'!
To me, the purpose of the torch is to raise the light level. If the torch does not increase the light level, and I'm using it for light, then the torch "does not work." Yes, the torch continues to burn but it does not continue to "raise the light level." Otherwise a 3rd level spell is beaten by a torch. That doesn't sound very magical to me.
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The line 'torches and lanterns do not work' does not appear in the spell!
What does appear is 'torches and lanterns do not increase the light level'!
You know what else doesn't appear in the spell?
"Torches and lanterns will not increase the light level."You're trying to use the difference between past tense and present tense in order to (falsely) equate present tense and future tense.
The rules refer to a continuous, ongoing increase in light level that is negated. (Sort of like how you pointed out that a certain phrase "does not" appear in the spell, as opposed to "did not" or "will not" appear in the spell.)
You're pointing out that the spell doesn't use the past tense, while ignoring that it doesn't use the future tense. What it's actually using is a continuous present tense which references light sources' function of continuously applying a raising effect to the light level (and the negation thereof).