...
Dark dungeon with darkness cast is a wasted spell.
Dark dungeon with with torches every 20' and darkness cast is darkness within the area of effect of the spell
Corrected that for you. Darkness spell can not create supernatural darkness.
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Dark dungeon with darkness cast is a wasted spell.
Dark dungeon with with torches every 20' and darkness cast is darkness within the area of effect of the spell
Corrected that for you. Darkness spell can not create supernatural darkness.
Thanks, I fixed it.
Magical light of a level equal to the magical darkness level cancels out, letting any nonmagical light sources in the overlapping area of effect work normally, per the daylight spell: [
Technically that is only the daylight spell. And that would "turn back on" any other light sources in the area. Whether preexisting or new.
Bringing a Continual Flame into a regular Darkness does nothing, since Darkness trumps magical light of equal or lower level.
Bringing a Heightened (L4) Light spell into Deeper Darkness does not negate it, nor is it negated, leaving the net effect at the starting light -1.
This is getting insane. It is time for a unified theory of mundane and magical light and darkness.
The line in the rules simply states that additional light sources don't affect the end result but rather might alter the ambient light state.Wait? Are you now saying that lighting a torch in the magical darkness does raise the light level?
Under this simple interpretation, it could, not does.
Outside under the sun = Bright
+ Deeper Darkness = Dim
+ Torch = Dim (a torch doesn't make outside under the sun brighter)
Well-lit room = Normal
+ Deeper Darkness = Darkness
+ Torch = Darkness (a torch doesn't make a well-lit room brighter)
Dank dungeon with glowing moss on the walls = Dim
+ Deeper Darkness = Supernatural Darkness
+ Torch = Darkness (a torch *does* make a Dank dungeon with glowing moss on the walls brighter), within 40' of the torch (starts normal w/in 20' of torch, and raises dim to normal w/in 40', dropped two by deeper darkness)
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The line in the rules simply states that additional light sources don't affect the end result but rather might alter the ambient light state.Wait? Are you now saying that lighting a torch in the magical darkness does raise the light level?Under this simple interpretation, it could, not does.
Outside under the sun = Bright
+ Deeper Darkness = Dim
+ Torch = Dim (a torch doesn't make outside under the sun brighter)Well-lit room = Normal
+ Deeper Darkness = Darkness
+ Torch = Darkness (a torch doesn't make a well-lit room brighter)Dank dungeon with glowing moss on the walls = Dim
+ Deeper Darkness = Supernatural Darkness
+ Torch = Darkness (a torch *does* make a Dank dungeon with glowing moss on the walls brighter), within 40' of the torch (starts normal w/in 20' of torch, and raises dim to normal w/in 40', dropped two by deeper darkness)
Within the magical darkness, that torch is negated. Outside of it, sure.
Within the magical darkness, that torch is negated. Outside of it, sure.The line in the rules simply states that additional light sources don't affect the end result but rather might alter the ambient light state.Under this simple interpretation, it could, not does.
Interpretations of "Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.":
A (this one): Factor nonmagical sources into the original ambient level - never add it afterwards.B (EldonG's, and mine prior to today): Factor in nonmagical sources that are outside the area of the darkness effect.
C (thejeff/Jiggy's): Do not factor in nonmagical sources within a darkness effect (unless they are somehow 'ambient').
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Is this really rocket science people? A torch doesn't raise the end light, it raises the ambient light. Show me one line of text anywhere in the rules or a FAQ that says that a torch can't affect the ambient light level. So introducing a torch to an area of otherwise dim light also subjected to deeper darkness won't "raise the light level" because it won't raise it from Superdark to Normal. It will, however, re-set the natural ambient light level to normal which, after Deeper Darkness is added in, is dropped to Darkness rather than Superdark. The torch isn't snuffed by the spell; nowhere does it state this.
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
RAW. That seems clear enough.
Unholy Darkness Batman.
It seems like everybody is both arguing past each other and in circles. It seems to me that Majuba has pretty simply summarized all the varying views people have on how this works. I don't think at this point anyone is going to succeed in convincing anyone else that their interpretation of the poorly worded RAW is the only correct one. In which case it would be better for us all to move on in a productive way. Hopefully everyone has found, somewhere within the thread, something that they will be able to work with at their tables, and something that makes sense to them as RAW and RAI.
I wasn't joking earlier when I said I'm probably going to just houserule it like a full on globe of darkness, one of 20 ft. radius that doesn't suppress darkvision, that can only be negated by a light spell of equal or higher level (which would then return the area to its previous light level before any spell was cast), and one of 60 ft. radius that does suppress darkvision that can only be negated by a light spell of equal or higher level (or dispel magic in both cases, of course). That makes it a A LOT easier to adjudicate, and I don't have to worry about steps of light, ambient light, nonmagical light, sunlight, moonlight, starlight, glowing mushrooms, glowing swords, glowing water, glowing lich eyes, glowing vampire eyes. etc.
What might be even more helpful is starting a thread that asks the question: Does the spell darkness snuff out/extinguish all non-magical light that originates within its radius, as well as negate all non-magical light that enters its radius?
I believe that's a question that could get a decent amount of FAQ response with the right amount of buzz.
Found the Rules podcast I mentioned earlier:
Either:
Know Direction: PaizoCon 2012 Special 019 - Pathfinder RPG Q&A, Time: 39:40 in, or 15:23 left
or
Chronicles Pathfinder Podcast: PaizoCon 2012 Special, Time: 160:40 (2 hours 40 minutes) in or 301:50 left.
Partial transcript:
I think generally speaking what we are trying to aim for is something that is relatively easy to adjudicate, and just saying 'Okay, so there is a giant cavern. It's lit up by a bunch of torches, that makes it standard light. You cast darkness in the middle of it, that area drops two steps [SIC]. I think that's a fine adjudication.
I think the same adjudication works if you're in a 10'x10' with torches making it super-bright in there and you cast darkness, well it doesn't drop it two steps, it just shuts those off and now it's super dark. That's fine.
Saying we're up on the surface, and the sun is up in the sky, and I cast darkness. It's bright light, it only goes down to dim [SIC], because it's the sun... and it's not within the radius of the darkness.
The reason I ask that is interpretation can vary from GM to GM...
It certainly can. I think generally speaking one of our understandings is that there is no way we are going to be able to adjudicate every single thing in the game, nor do we want to.
And the reason for that is that I can't write a rule for all the laws of physics... and to be honest you don't want me to.
Well. That certainly clears things up. o_o
That's how it sounds to me.
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Found the Rules podcast I mentioned earlier:
Either:
Know Direction: PaizoCon 2012 Special 019 - Pathfinder RPG Q&A, Time: 39:40 in, or 15:23 leftor
Chronicles Pathfinder Podcast: PaizoCon 2012 Special, Time: 160:40 (2 hours 40 minutes) in or 301:50 left.
Partial transcript:
I think generally speaking what we are trying to aim for is something that is relatively easy to adjudicate, and just saying 'Okay, so there is a giant cavern. It's lit up by a bunch of torches, that makes it standard light. You cast darkness in the middle of it, that area drops two steps [SIC]. I think that's a fine adjudication.
I think the same adjudication works if you're in a 10'x10' with torches making it super-bright in there and you cast darkness, well it doesn't drop it two steps, it just shuts those off and now it's super dark. That's fine.
Saying we're up on the surface, and the sun is up in the sky, and I cast darkness. It's bright light, it only goes down to dim [SIC], because it's the sun... and it's not within the radius of the darkness.
The reason I ask that is interpretation can vary from GM to GM...
It certainly can. I think generally speaking one of our understandings is that there is no way we are going to be able to adjudicate every single thing in the game, nor do we want to.
And the reason for that is that I can't write a rule for all the laws of physics... and to be honest you don't want me to.
Gee, that sounds familiar. ;)
How about this...
Ambient light is the prevailing light minus artificial means of light (mundane or magical). So a dark room is dark. A torch raises this to light. Deeper darkness prevents mundane light (the torch) from raising the light level (making it dark) plus lowers the light level by two.
Does that work?
Found the Rules podcast I mentioned earlier:
Either:
Know Direction: PaizoCon 2012 Special 019 - Pathfinder RPG Q&A, Time: 39:40 in, or 15:23 leftor
Chronicles Pathfinder Podcast: PaizoCon 2012 Special, Time: 160:40 (2 hours 40 minutes) in or 301:50 left.
Partial transcript:
I think generally speaking what we are trying to aim for is something that is relatively easy to adjudicate, and just saying 'Okay, so there is a giant cavern. It's lit up by a bunch of torches, that makes it standard light. You cast darkness in the middle of it, that area drops two steps [SIC]. I think that's a fine adjudication.
I think the same adjudication works if you're in a 10'x10' with torches making it super-bright in there and you cast darkness, well it doesn't drop it two steps, it just shuts those off and now it's super dark. That's fine.
Saying we're up on the surface, and the sun is up in the sky, and I cast darkness. It's bright light, it only goes down to dim [SIC], because it's the sun... and it's not within the radius of the darkness.
The reason I ask that is interpretation can vary from GM to GM...
It certainly can. I think generally speaking one of our understandings is that there is no way we are going to be able to adjudicate every single thing in the game, nor do we want to.
And the reason for that is that I can't write a rule for all the laws of physics... and to be honest you don't want me to.
So then the conclusion is RAW on this topic is a mess and we should move to the house rules section, because we will never get a satisfactory FAQ response?
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How about this...
Ambient light is the prevailing light minus artificial means of light (mundane or magical). So a dark room is dark. A torch raises this to light. Deeper darkness prevents mundane light (the torch) from raising the light level (making it dark) plus lowers the light level by two.
Does that work?
The problem with that is that ambient light everywhere would default to dark. Here's the problem; Darkness doesn't cause "light" to decrease. It causes "objects" to reflect less of it. If Darkness reduced the actual light, then it would be opaque or translucent darkness; you wouldn't even be able to see something properly lit on the other side of it. For example, if I'm standing in a dark alleyway and I don't have darkvision, I can't adequately see anything in my immediate vicinity. However, outside of the alleyway and across the street, there's a street lamp creating a pool of normal and dim light. I'm still in dark lighting conditions, but I can perfectly well see what's happening under that lamp light. I could also see if I had my own lamp and there was darkness between the two lamps' light radii. You see based on the lighting conditions of the object you're looking at, not the lighting conditions of where you are currently standing.
So, enter magical darkness. It creates a field, centered on a target object, that lowers the light reflection of all objects. If a torch, luminescent fungus, or some other source of mundane light is within this field, it works normally and helps determine what the normal, pre-magic light level is... ambient lighting. Same goes for a light source outside the field. If I have a torch just outside the range of a field of magical darkness, it won't raise the light level to normal in that field; it will raise the ambient light level to normal (if it wasn't already at least normal) and then darkness would be calculated in to drop it down to dim. But it doesn't affect light traveling through...
If you feel that Pathfinder is a game of physics, go for it. If it breaks every rule of physics, but works in the game, and makes it enjoyable...I have the perfect excuse.
It's magic.
The problem with that is that ambient light everywhere would default to dark.
Except for sunlight, moonlight, starlight (natural ambient light, not artificial light) If you don't see a difference between torches and candles vs the sun then... I don't know. I really don't know where to go from there.
Here's the problem; Darkness doesn't cause "light" to decrease.
Well, if you want to get philosophical about it, it does. There is no such thing as dark. There is light and the absence of light. The way I'm reading the spell: nonmagical light sources are negated and the light level is reduced. But I don't fret too much over exact RAW (so I probably shouldn't be posting in the rules forum) so this my impression from a casual reading of the spell.
I think generally speaking what we are trying to aim for is something that is relatively easy to adjudicate, and just saying 'Okay, so there is a giant cavern. It's lit up by a bunch of torches, that makes it standard light. You cast darkness in the middle of it, that area drops two steps [SIC]. I think that's a fine adjudication.
I think the same adjudication works if you're in a 10'x10' with torches making it super-bright in there and you cast darkness, well it doesn't drop it two steps, it just shuts those off and now it's super dark. That's fine.
Okay, I think Jason is saying exactly what thejeff/Jiggy have been saying all along. I think he's saying the same thing, twice, in a different way. He's saying darkness does extinquish nonmagical light, IF the sources of the light are within the radius of the spell. Then it drops whatever the "ambient" (meaning in this context what the light level would have been if there weren't torches/lanterns etc.) by one (darkness) or two (deeper darkness) steps.
The key is the phrase I bolded, "in the middle of it." Also, I think part of the key to understanding it is that he seems to be mixing darkness and deeper darkness up, and not really thinking about the actual radii of the sources, but I think his intent is clear. I believe what Jason is saying here is that the radius of the darkness isn't actually around or encompassing the sources of the nonmagical light. It's just hitting the radii of their output. In that case, where the darkness is affecting the light produced by them but not the actual source of the light, it is dropping the light level in the area it affects. Imagine a 40 foot wide chamber, with torches every 20 feet on both sides. The "ambient" light in a chamber like that would be normal (even though mathematically speaking there'd be some diamonds of dim light alternating every so often). If you dropped a 20 ft radius darkness spell "in the middle" of the room, it drops the light level to dim, because it's not actually encompassing the sources of the light, just the light they are producing. In a 10x10 foot room, though, that same darkness spell is extinquishing the nonmagical light first, and then dropping the resulting light one step.
So now I guess I'm arguing against the way I've been running it, and, I think, against the way Malachi was arguing before as well.
Does that make sense? It did to me.
That's not what you were saying? What were you saying then, that all nonmagical light fails to work within the radius of the spell, regardless of position? I must have misunderstood you then. So you're saying within the radius of the darkness spell nonmagical light doesn't count at all regardless of it's position. So caster drops darkness, discount all nonmagical light, and look at what the "ambient" light level would have been without them, then drop that a step? Because if that's the case, I'm pretty sure what Jason said does directly contradict that.
Do you agree that Jason is saying what I put forth? Or do you think he's saying something else?
Edit: Also, I'm now thinking that the spells darkness and deeper darkness actually physically extinguish any nomagical light, meaning if it's a torch it just got snuffed, so moving it outside of the spell at that point is worthless anyway, unless you relight it. You're right though that that still creates wackiness where if I light up several torches outside the radius of a darkness spell, I am "resetting" the ambient light level, and it's unclear then whether the area of the darkness spell is affected by that or not. Man! Now I'm confusing myself.
This is why I hate rules semantics: "Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness."
As the Grammar Nazi pointed out earlier this could mean: nonmagical sources of light that are within an area of darkness (read: the radius of the spell's effect) don't increase the light level. My interpretation of that would be if they enter that radius they immediately get snuffed, no ifs, ands, or buts, about it. In that case, of course they don't increase the light level, they just went out. Or! It could mean, as thejeff says, nonmagical light sources are unable to penetrate magical darkness at all. So don't even worry about figuring them into the "ambient" light level. I kind of wish they would really just reword it. There are a couple simple reworks that could be done here that would clear it up once and for all.
Edit: @Deadmoon. Yes, I know there's no language that says that, but I'm starting to seriously read that as the RAI.
This is why I hate rules semantics:
Are you saying you're anti-semantic?
Edit: Also, I'm now thinking that the spells darkness and deeper darkness actually physically extinguish any nomagical light, meaning if it's a torch it just got snuffed, so moving it outside of the spell at that point is worthless anyway, unless you relight it. You're right though that that still creates wackiness where if I light up several torches outside the radius of a darkness spell, I am "resetting" the ambient light level, and it's unclear then whether the area of the darkness spell is affected by that or not. Man! Now I'm confusing myself.I don't think there's any support in the text for fires going out and that's a big boost to the spell. Does it put out not just torches and lanterns but any non-magical (or lower level magical?) fires? Can I use it to fight forest fires and put out burning buildings? Or people?
I don't think you thought that part through. :)
True, good call, I didn't think it through, but it was my gut reaction to they physics of what I perceive Jason to be saying there. Okay, so maybe it doesn't "snuff" them, but I still think that if the source of nonmagical light is within the effect radius of the spell it makes them null as far as providing light. Does the fire "go out?" No, but its ability to shed any light whatsoever is negated (this could create some hilarity if you dropped darkness on a group of humans sitting around a campfire under a forest canopy on an overcast night--they might stumble into the fire that's giving no light at all, and burn themselves). I'm still up in the air about how that works if the source is outside the radius of effect. Jason's comments really seem to me to be saying if they aren't inside the radius of the spell, and are creating the "ambient" light in the room, they are not discounted altogether.
Edit: @Durngrun Rimshot
Edit: Also, I'm now thinking that the spells darkness and deeper darkness actually physically extinguish any nomagical light, meaning if it's a torch it just got snuffed, so moving it outside of the spell at that point is worthless anyway, unless you relight it. You're right though that that still creates wackiness where if I light up several torches outside the radius of a darkness spell, I am "resetting" the ambient light level, and it's unclear then whether the area of the darkness spell is affected by that or not. Man! Now I'm confusing myself.I don't think there's any support in the text for fires going out and that's a big boost to the spell. Does it put out not just torches and lanterns but any non-magical (or lower level magical?) fires? Can I use it to fight forest fires and put out burning buildings? Or people?
I don't think you thought that part through. :)True, good call, I didn't think it through, but it was my gut reaction to they physics of what I perceive Jason to be saying there. Okay, so maybe it doesn't "snuff" them, but I still think that if the source of nonmagical light is within the effect radius of the spell it makes them null as far as providing light. Does the fire "go out?" No, but its ability to shed any light whatsoever is negated (this could create some hilarity if you dropped darkness on a group of humans sitting around a campfire under a forest canopy on an overcast night--they might stumble into the fire that's giving no light at all, and burn themselves). I'm still up in the air about how that works if the source is outside the radius of effect. Jason's comments really seem to me to be saying if they aren't inside the radius of the spell, and are creating the "ambient" light in the room, they are not discounted altogether.
Even if they are not putting out light they are still putting out heat. That's a pretty dumb adventurer that stumbles into the roaring campfire he was just sitting next to (to which he is sitting next? That grammar nazi is making me nervous). Now if combined with an illusion with thermal effects...
Any group of humans that is dumb enough to have a spell caster walk into the middle of their camp and drop a darkness spell on a rock next to their campfire is probably dumb enough to stumble into the fire afterwards. :)
Huh. Not only do I not even know what to think about some of the questions here, I don't even feel like I have grounds for a minimally sturdy hypothesis. And just when I was feeling like some of the other darkness issues were looking resolvable too.
I guess it's FAQ button time.
Huh. Not only do I not even know what to think about some of the questions here, I don't even feel like I have grounds for a minimally sturdy hypothesis. And just when I was feeling like some of the other darkness issues were looking resolvable too.
I guess it's FAQ button time.
That's how I feel, and yet I continue to throw out conjecture and speculation. This whole light, dark, absence of light, radiated dark thing is a lot more complicated then I ever thought initially.
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One of the reasons there is so much misunderstanding is that over the years and versions of the game there have been many different iterations of a spell called 'darkness', all different.
What's even worse is that all of these different verions have also been badly, ambiguously written!
The result of all this is that each person who's had to think about how the spell actually works in the game has had to essentially guess the RAI because the RAW was so impenetrable. So each person carries in their own mind their own personal version of how the spell works, and teaches that version to others.
So there are many variations around the gaming community of how the spell works, and reading the latest version in the PF CRB will result in some new concepts being understood (steps of light levels) while leaving their previous ideas of how some things work untouched.
Reading, analyzing the text of the latest version does not make it clear!
"Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness."
Some people read this and think there is a difference if the light source is within the area of darkness radience. Some don't. As Grammer Nazi pointed out it could be legitimately read either way.
Some people think the spell creates a globe of blackness, because some earlier versions made it appear so, but that hasn't been true since at least 3.0.
Some people read the spell and grant it the power of actually extinguishing non-magical light sources. The spell doesn't say it does, and that is a huge increase in the power of the spell, but to be fair people are only doing this in an attempt to understand the spell.
Some people read the spell and, faced with the magical/non-magical divide, must invent a third type just to try to make sense of the spell. Some people invent 'natural' as a third type. Some people invent 'artificial' as a third type. Some invent a definition of sunlight that makes it magical! All honest attempts at trying to understand the spell.
Any one of us could write a better description that would make it clear. Trouble is, each of us would write a spell that makes it work like the version we have in our own mind, and each would work differently.
Struggling with the spell as written, we must know that spells 'do what they say on the tin', and do not do things beyond that. It's magic!
So we cannot give the spell the ability to extinguish non-magical light sources. Nor can those sources increase the light level in an area of magical darkness.
We cannot invent a third definition of 'kinds' of light; there are only two for the purposes of the spell: magical and non-magical. We cannot house-rule the sun to be a magical light source.
The darkness spells have two definate effects:-
1) each reduces the light level by a number of steps. The light level it is reduced from is the 'ambient' light as the darkness radiance appears, whether by being cast or moving into the area. The spells do not change what the 'ambient' light is, and then reduce that! If that were true, then everywhere in the multiverse is dark, and then reduces by one or two steps. Not only is this absurd, it also invents an ability for the spell that it simply doesn't have! The spell does not have the ability to alter the ambient light level before it takes effect!
2) each darkness radiance also suppresses any increase in light the level in its area, whether by non-magical means or by lower-level spells. While this may be jarring in some situations (like, who moved their radiating object first?), but it's simply a field which suppresses any increase in the light level, while still allowing a decrease. A 'ratchet', if you will.
If you find yourself having to invent a capability for the spell that it doesn't say it has in it's description then you're doing it wrong. If you have to invent new definitions of 'kinds' of light, or that sunlight is magical, then you're doing it wrong.
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I pretty strongly disagree with this approach as you might guess. I think just filing the Sun in the same category as "such as torches and lanterns" is as least as much of a reach as classifying it separately.
The spell has two categories of light: magical and non-magical. The sun is non-magical. I didn't put the sun there, the spell didn't put the sun there, that's where it is.
Sunlight does appear to have magical properties. Its effect on certain undead for example isn't duplicated by even magical bright light sources, such as Daylight.
Sunlight destroying undead is not a property of the sun, it is a property of the undead.
Would you say that all water is magical, just because vampires can't cross running water? Or that all silver is magical, just because lycanthropes are harmed by it?
As for the ratcheting effect, you can't even resolve a situation like:
A person carrying a torch and a person with a Darkness object are walking towards each other down an otherwise dark corridor. What is the light level when they meet?
Without rolling initiative and tracking moves the whole way to see who makes the final step into range, you can't know.
I don't need to resolve it. The game system does that already. In the game system, creatures take turns to act, and the initiative system resolves any question of who moved first.
It's a strange attitude that playing the game with this system is okay, but when 'darkness versus light' comes up, suddenly it doesn't make sense?
I've been thinking about this, and I think I have it finally figured out.
Follow me on this...
###################
###################
###################
###################
###################
###################
###################
###################
###################
###################
Ok, so imagine the grid above is 5' wide per character, and 10' tall per character (to keep it square).
Now, imagine that every T in the below is a torch.
T#######TT########T
###################
###################
T#######TT########T
###################
###################
T#######TT########T
###################
###################
T#######TT########T
Now, this room above should be 'lit' but not brightly lit, pretty much every where. Now, let's assume DD is cast, centered where the DD's are below, and that for simplicity, it's got a 20' Radius. If it's centered exactly in the room, then we get the following...
T#######TT########T
###################
###################
T#######DD########T
######DDDDDD#######
######DDDDDD#######
T#######DD########T
###################
###################
T#######TT########T
Now, here is how I think it would work. Per the spell, any mundane light sources in the area of effect stop working. So, the four torches in the center of the room stop working. They don't produce any light at all, even though their radius is partially outside the spell, since the source is inside, it stops functioning. In this case, the Ambient light level is the light level at the edges of the darkness spell. Thus, the ambient lighting level (sans the torches in the center) is Dim from all the other torches. DD drops the Dim ambient level by 2 levels, to Supernatural Darkness, and Darkvision ceases to function in the DD area.
However, if the room had only been like below :
####T###
########
########
###T####
We have only two torches. Both provice enough illumination to light up the whole room to normal light levels(with some dim bits here and there). However, if we throw the DD up in this room, again centered..
###DD###
#DDDDDD#
#DDDDDD#
###DD###
Now, both our light sources for the room are in the field of DD. They are taken out of the equation, and the ambient light level without them would be Darkness. That means we basically have the entire room as Dark, with darkvision working only in the corners.
Finally, a third example...
T#######TT########T
###################
###################
T#################T
########SL#########
########SL#########
T#################T
###################
###################
T#######TT########T
In the above example, torches light the walls and corners, but there's a 10x20 skylight in noon day sun in the center of the room. This illuminates the 10x20 area to Bright Light, and 20 feet around to Normal Light. Now, let's cast DD again centered in the room.
T#######TT########T
###################
###################
T#######DD########T
######DDDLDD#######
######DDDLDD#######
T#######DD########T
###################
###################
T#######TT########T
So, now we have a complex situation. There are no light sources in the area of darkness, so it's just the ambient light of each area. For the 10x20 under the skylight, the ambient light level is Bright Light, so those squares become Dim Light. Everything else in the spell area becomes Deeper Darkness (the ambient light around the edges from other light sources). Thus Darkvision works in the 10x20 under the skylight, but not in the rest of the DD area.
Whew, a lot of typing.
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Coming late to the game, but my interpretation focuses on the word increases in the spell definition.
Looking at the Vision and Light rules, and the Light Sources and Illumination Table, the 'normal' column lists the radius where the light around the object is considered 'normal' illumination. The second column 'increased' refers to the light level increasing within that area (outside of the 'normal' area).
My interpretation is this: A light source, regardless of what it is, sets the light level around it up to a certain radius, and increases the light level beyond that (to twice the radius). Darkness lowers the level of the light according to what the level is set to, but prevents whatever is causing the light to increase the illumination within the area beyond the initial radius (unless it is from a higher level spell).
I have a long example in a spoiler here:
So:
- A torch in an otherwise dark room sets illumination to 'normal' for 20' around it, and increases the light level to from 20'-40' which is set to 'darkness' without any light source up to 'dim'.
- Place another torch, 60' away, so that the area 20' around it is set to 'normal' and the light level from 20'-40'is increased one level to 'dim'.
- The area where the two torches increased light crosses, is now 'normal' (an increase of two levels)
- Enter the deeper darkness spell.
==20' around each torch, where the illumination was set to 'normal', the illumination is decreased two steps, to 'darkness'.
==20'-40' away from each torch, where the light did not overlap (where the light was 'dim', the light is 'supernatural darkness'.
==20'-40' away from each torch, where the light did overlap (where the light was 'normal', the light is also 'supernatural darkness'.
Why was the overlaping light level brought down from 'normal' to 'supernatural darkness'?
= Because the description of darkness explicitly says that "Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness". So the area of torch light outside the initial 20' where the light level is set to 'normal' is ignored.
Let's switch the torches to a normal light spell. The results are the same because the light spell is of a lower level.
What about if these were heightened light spells? Then it's ability to increase the light level beyond 20' (to 40') remains unhindered. The light level in the overlapping areas is increased to 'normal' before the deeper darkness spell decreases the light level by two to 'darkness'.
What if we introduce a torch or normal light spell in the overlapping heightened light area? 20' around the torch that is within the overlap, is 'normal' illumination since the heightened spells increase the light (set to 'normal' by the torch) by two steps while the deeper darkness reduces it by two steps, cancelling each other out.
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You guys have fun. I'll stick with what Jason Buhlman said - and I already believed...inside the area of darkness, it's darker by one or two steps, based on the general level of ambient light in the area, and to change that requires a higher level spell...or significantly (one or more steps) more ambient light from outside of the darkness.
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Coming late to the game, but my interpretation focuses on the word increases in the spell definition.
Looking at the Vision and Light rules, and the Light Sources and Illumination Table, the 'normal' column lists the radius where the light around the object is considered 'normal' illumination. The second column 'increased' refers to the light level increasing within that area (outside of the 'normal' area).
My interpretation is this: A light source, regardless of what it is, sets the light level around it up to a certain radius, and increases the light level beyond that (to twice the radius). Darkness lowers the level of the light according to what the level is set to, but prevents whatever is causing the light to increase the illumination within the area beyond the initial radius (unless it is from a higher level spell).
I have a long example in a spoiler here:
** spoiler omitted **...
I like this.
A lot.
A bone of contention has been what the spell means by the word 'increases'. This is something I never considered, and it may be the answer we have been looking for.
The sun is not listed on that table. Would 'normal' be direct sunlight, and indirect sunlight 'increases'?
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As for the ratcheting effect, you can't even resolve a situation like:
A person carrying a torch and a person with a Darkness object are walking towards each other down an otherwise dark corridor. What is the light level when they meet?
Without rolling initiative and tracking moves the whole way to see who makes the final step into range, you can't know.I don't need to resolve it. The game system does that already. In the game system, creatures take turns to act, and the initiative system resolves any question of who moved first.
It's a strange attitude that playing the game with this system is okay, but when 'darkness versus light' comes up, suddenly it doesn't make sense?
In combat it does. As a necessary abstraction.
I don't normally apply initiative and individual turn based movement outside of combat. Do you?
Initiative is used whenever it is important to know who acts first.
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@mdt: although your idea is internally consistent and therefore a fair houserule, it is not consistent with the spell description.
Per the spell, any mundane light sources in the area of effect stop working.
This is not 'per the spell' at all! This is something made up by people trying to get the spell to work in the game; it is not from the spell description, which merely prevents non-magical light sources from increasing the light level.
You've also put sunlight in a separate category than other non-magical light, which is also made up by others and not in the spell description, nor is it a certain consequence of the spell description as other explanations, consistent with the spell, exist without inventing a third category for sunlight.
*shrug*
I guess I just read that different than you do Malachi, which is where all the wrangling comes from. To me, 'stops from increasing light' means 'stops working' since that's the entire purpose of a light source, to increase the light, and if you stop it, it ceases to work.
And no, I didn't give sunlight a separate category, it is already the category of 'BRIGHT LIGHT' (noon day sun is bright light). The only places the sunlight can reach is the floor under the skylight (again, noon day sunlight shines straight down). Ergo, the ambient light level in that 10x20 area is bright, but it's normal everywhere else. Nothing special about the sunlight other than how bright it is.
Unless you're suggesting the sun (the source of the bright light) is inside the area of effect of the spell. It's not. The source of that light is outside the source of the spell, thus the spell does not prevent it from raising the level of light in it's effective range.
Please think that through again, Malachi.