I've seen so many Rogues get absolutely trashed by retaliating (insert big-hitting monster here) after they've made their standard TWF-ing sneak attack routine that it occurred to me that if they could survive those attacks they'd make great tanks. Could it be done? and would it be worth it?
Defensive Offense fight might help a bit. Armor Expert or Comfort with a mithril breastplate lets you wear medium armor with 0 ACP. The thing is AC doesn't scale well but attack does, so its hard to be a tank at all. Raising their HP to D10 might help.
Is 3E material allowed? The Staggering Strike feat allows a rogue to tank fairly well.
In any case, you'd obviously want Offensive Defense. When you get to advanced talents, the first one you should take is Entanglement of Blades. Combined w/ 5 ft stepping away, it will rob the foe of full attacking you and actually give you an AoO each round it keeps trying to fight you, too (assuming equal reach for you and the foe).
I really don't think it'd be worth the effort, but you can certainly try. Not sure why you think they would be good tanks if they can survive attacks; they have d8 HD, lowish AC, and poor base fort saves.
Well, I was thinking they get damage built right into the class, and you get evasion, defensive roll, slippery mind, can use the shield spell with a talent, plus other stuff I guess. I suppose being a dwarf would help out with hit points and saves. I don't have a build yet, I'm just brain-storming.
Offensive defense seems kind of ambiguous, does it mean it stacks with every sneak attack you make? Or are you just suppose to get it once?
They get a highly situational damage bonus that at level 6 without iteratives is anywhere from 3-18(avarage 12.5). I mean, its not amazingly difficult to come into play but to be honest Inquisitor, fighter, Paladin, and Barbarian have almost always on damage bonuses.
It is wierd. Theres a faqs on it. Its a dodge bonus that doesn't stack with itself but stacks with other dodge bonuses.
I assume you are intended to get it only once per foe each round, but the wording is ambiguous and you'll need all the help you can get, so may as well go with a "RAW" reading that it stacks. ;)
And when someone says "tank", I think of being able to take/avoid hits and being able to draw aggro and/or locking down the area around you. Either way, premise is someone who is hard to kill and has a means of forcing enemies to fight him instead of the squishies.
Not damage so much. In any case, a well built Fighter or Barbarian can roughly match a Rogue for damage even when he's sneak attacking, and are much hardier, too. All the dice may look like a lot of damage, but it's only 3.5 on average per d6. A 2-handing melee person is getting +3 damage per -1 to hit from power attack alone, plus high base weapon damage, plus 1.5x str to damage, plus other bonuses like fighter's weapon training and specialization.
I get that a rogue isn't going to out-tank a barbarian, but building a barb as your tank is boring and easy, whereas building a rogue to tank is challenging and interesting.
Another option would be to completely forgo the sneaky and pick up armour proficiency.
If you forgo the sneak attack for armor proficiency your just a 3/4 bab guy in armor really. Not that threatening.
I assume you are intended to get it only once per foe each round, but the wording is ambiguous and you'll need all the help you can get, so may as well go with a "RAW" reading that it stacks. ;)
And when someone says "tank", I think of being able to take/avoid hits and being able to draw aggro and/or locking down the area around you. Either way, premise is someone who is hard to kill and has a means of forcing enemies to fight him instead of the squishies.
Not damage so much. In any case, a well built Fighter or Barbarian can roughly match a Rogue for damage even when he's sneak attacking, and are much hardier, too. All the dice may look like a lot of damage, but it's only 3.5 on average per d6. A 2-handing melee person is getting +3 damage per -1 to hit from power attack alone, plus high base weapon damage, plus 1.5x str to damage, plus other bonuses like fighter's weapon training and specialization.
I mentioned damage thinking of it as a way of encouraging things to try and mash you to goo.
I have to get going, but maybe I'll have a build when I get back ^_^
Armor Expert Trait, Mithril Hellknight Plate with Comfort enchantment.
Highest AC you can get without ACP, but the armor still slows you.
Armor Expert Trait, Mithril Hellknight Plate with Comfort enchantment.
Highest AC you can get without ACP, but the armor still slows you.
Dip into barbarian! Urban Barbarian am have more AC. Couldn't hurt a rogue right?
If you forgo the sneak attack for armor proficiency your just a 3/4 bab guy in armor really. Not that threatening.
Not sneak attack, the sneaky, as in the whole stealthy rogue shtick.Who wants to get ganked sneaking around away from the party anyway?
A flank is all you need for sneak attack.
Elven chain, Shield proficiency from a feat, toughness, dodge, high-ish constitution.
A rogue can make a reasonable fighter with good durability but a "tank" though?
That would be a tough build. Why would you want to do that? Surely just taking a level or two as a fighter or barbarian to add hit points, weapons, armour options, tower shields and bonus combat feats would do the job?
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Why hasn't anyone thought of this yet? Half-Orc Lvl 1 Ftr/ Everything else Rouge. Ok, get this, Wear Full Plate and Wield the Biggest melee weapon that you can (If your GM will allow it, Monkey Grip is written into pathfinder now so you only take a minus 2 for wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand)
"Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies."
Next, USE A TOWER SHIELD. Ok, so now you're thinking, "How do I sneak attack, Munch?" Using the frontline fighter in tandem, you can position yourself in flanking position. Now let's add up some dam damage! 1d6 Sneak attack for lvl 1 rouge, let's say +1d12 for a great axe, and +3 Strength Damage (a 16 isn't hard to attain with the point buy system). You're looking at 5-21 damage every time you flank! How's you AC look? Let's say you have a 13 Dex, not difficult to get. 9 FP+4 TS+ 1 Dex and get Dodge as a bonus feat for a +1 and add 10 and you get: 25 AC at level 2! If you spend any points on con you can get some more HP, but I would instead get combat expertise (14 Str +2 Race mod, 13 Dex and 13 int cost 11 points in total) and now you're getting a +1 to your ac. Fight defensively and your total armor class is 28! You won't have the "Damage per turn" that a twf rouge can get, but you'll have loads of staying power (don't forget Orc ferocity!). You'll have a super low touch ac (12 :() but you're practically rouge proof (ff AC=23!). You could multiclass into Stalwart defender and then you're unstoppable!!!!!!
Except you can't equip anything bigger than you can wield and you have almost no to hit. You'd also take forever to get into stalwart defender. and you'd have to eat up a bunch of feats unless your an unbreakable fighter(Edit: Scratch that. You will eat up a lot of feats)
Also, sneak attack is lackluster damage to begin with. Especialy if your not wtf.
Crane and or snake style can go a long way to help with this.
Too bad crane can only be used with a free hand or while not killing things. Nice thing is anyone can nab it with 1 level dip into unarmed fighter if they have dodge.
Buckler! And done...
Back in the day you could wear a mithril chain shirt, buckler, dastana, and cha har-aina and make the full plate and tower shield fighter blush in shame.
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I have a genius idea for making an effective character. First, we'll take a 3/4 BAB class and hand them a tower shield. Then we'll accept that we can't contribute at all if we're not flanking, and immediately take a prestige class that makes us unable to move.
At higher levels, the key to survival is denial of full attacks. Entanglement of Blades would be sweet, if not for the fact that most enemies have reach.
A thug with both bludgeoner and enforcer. Intimidate your enemies into running away! (This assumes that the frightening ability works with the enforcer feat.)
There's a cape that allows the owner to grasp it with his hand and use it as a shield with no check penalty, can be upgraded as a normal shield. It could give a really decent AC boost.
I have a genius idea for making an effective character. First, we'll take a 3/4 BAB class and hand them a tower shield. Then we'll accept that we can't contribute at all if we're not flanking, and immediately take a prestige class that makes us unable to move.
Have I mentioned before that you're by far my favorite poster on this forum?
At higher levels, the key to survival is denial of full attacks. Entanglement of Blades would be sweet, if not for the fact that most enemies have reach.
If he's trying to tank and not be a "traditional rogue", he could just sport a reach weapon to help with that. I was going to suggest doing so and doing some sort of lockdown build... then I realized PF basically has no lockdown and what little it does utilizes the CMB system (bad news for anyone, but especially a medium BAB class) or requires stupidly high BAB (Dazing Assault) or Fighter levels (Pin Down).
Really, the key to making a rogue tank build is the Staggering Strike feat I linked to. That one feat lets a rogue hang with the big boys in melee. Without it, the effort is pretty pointless.
If you combine Thug and Scout archtypes you get a charging wonder. If you charge with Cornugon Smash (feat) at level 7 the result can be realy amazing:
- Offensive Defense (+3 AC)
- Target of the attack is sickend (-2 Attack)
- Target is most likly shaken (-2 Attack) or target may flee
The build below is just out of my head and i added alchemist Vivisectionist just to boost some more strength (mutagen).
Race: Orc
Class: Rouge (Scout/Thug) 4/Alchemist(Vivisectionist) 3
Level: 7th
STR: 17 (+1 @ 4th Level)
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 10
Feats:
________________
1st Level: Medium Armor Prof
2nd Talen: Offensive Defense
3rd Level: Power Attack
4th Talen: Furious Focus
5th Level: Intimidating Prowess
6th Disco: Spontaneous Healing
7th Level: Cornugon Smash
Equipment
________________
Belt of Thunderous Charging 10000 gc
Rino Hide 5165 gc
+ 1 Greataxe 2050 gc
I think this is as close as a rogue can get to tank atleast against a single target...
Breiti
I have a genius idea for making an effective character. First, we'll take a 3/4 BAB class and hand them a tower shield. Then we'll accept that we can't contribute at all if we're not flanking, and immediately take a prestige class that makes us unable to move.Have I mentioned before that you're by far my favorite poster on this forum?
Echoed.
Echoed.I have a genius idea for making an effective character. First, we'll take a 3/4 BAB class and hand them a tower shield. Then we'll accept that we can't contribute at all if we're not flanking, and immediately take a prestige class that makes us unable to move.Have I mentioned before that you're by far my favorite poster on this forum?
I like them both, what do I win?
Monk 1.) (Weapon Finesse), Roll With It
Rogue 1/Monk 1.)
Rogue 2/Monk 1.) (Ninja Trick: Style Master: Crane Style), Dodge
Rogue 3/Monk 1.) +1 Wisdom
Rogue 4/Monk 1.) (Offensive Defense), FEAT OF YOUR CHOICE
Rogue 5/Monk 1.)
Rogue 6/Monk 1.) (Ninja Trick: Style Master: Crane Wing), FEAT OF YOUR CHOICE
Rogue 7/Monk 1.) +1 dex
So, the idea is to be a monk, and hope roll with it covers anything crane wing doesn't? Not sure if you'll be doing much DPR, but the AC looks great if your not flatfooted or denied your attack. Looks crazy really!
If we have to build a rogue tank how rogueish would you have to be? Would the feats have to depend on being a rogue?
How about 1 lvl monk to get WIS to AC
9 levels Rogue.
Lvl 10 take Deulist, so you add INT to AC
With Snake Style
combined with Bracers of defense, Ring of Protection, etc will give an effective AC and still be able to attack.
If you DM allows it, a blade on the boot, or using the Monk hand to hand damage (in kicking)will allow you to use 2 weapons and still have a hand free.
In 3.5 we had a fighter/rogue (mostly rogue) in our group that had an insanely high AC. Especially against attacks of opportunity. She didn't do a lot of damage, but her near invulnerability was incredibly useful.
Rogue tanks? PSHAW. I suppose next we'll be wanting DPR Monks, or healbot synthesist summoners!
[/sardonism]
I have a Goblin Viv. Beastmorph Alchemist right now that works as a tank. Uses a dex-granting feral mutagen and has finese and AoMF with Agile. So the Mutagen alone is granting him +4 AC, and he has Roll With It. Works pretty well, still does good damage. Looking forward to next level when he can pounce off the Roll With It.
I don't think it would work nearly as well if he were an actual rogue, as opposed to my attempt to play a "rogue" with a class that doesn't actually suck. The natural attacks, the nat armor, the flight, dex boosting, extract buffs... I'd be a much weaker character without them. The key to him being a tank without any sort of lockdown or aggro generation is to have great defense, but still inflict such large damage that foes NEED to try and take him out despite his defenses.
(It would have been nice to go for Crane Wing, but that costs 4 feats and wasn't worth dipping out for; and I think if your defense to offense ratio reaches a certain point, enemies just ignore you and you fail at being a tank, so I thought going that far would be counter productive)
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I have a genius idea for making an effective character. First, we'll take a 3/4 BAB class and hand them a tower shield. Then we'll accept that we can't contribute at all if we're not flanking, and immediately take a prestige class that makes us unable to move.
Excuse me, I'll refrain from posting a Tank in a topic that wants Tanks.
I can't believe I forgot about crane style. There goes the old build down the drain probably.
Anyway, Here's a very rough look (at tenth, and assuming I have WBL gear) at some of the basics of what I had in mind. I'm sure the rest of it may be inferred. As a disclaimer, I'm not super familiar with stuff beyond the core guide.
Dwarf Rogue 10
STR 17(19 with enhancement)
DEX 13
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 6
HP 94-ish
AC 29
Adamantine full-plate
a minor cloak of displacement
and and a bunch AC boosting knick-knacks and so on.
Offensively, this character relies on using Chill touch through the major magic talent, since that allows us to bypass the accuracy issue somewhat. After he's exhausted this ability he uses a battleaxe, but that's significantly less effective.
I would take feats for proficiency since multiclassing defeats the purpose of this exercise, and why even bother with the rogue at that point anyway?
I'm sure it can be done much better by someone else. His AC is too low for my taste and he also doesn't hit hard enough for my taste either.
Also, I should tell you folks that I'm on the Public Wi-Fi internet plan ^_^, so even if my posting is sporadic, I'll get around to it eventually.
Offensive Defensive + whip + whirlwind + lung = o snap u cant touch this.
Yeah, good luck with that CMB. 'Cause that's what you'll need. Luck.
Edit: It's a whip so I assume you're trying to trip and disarm stuff. Which even Fighters have trouble with once you get to mid to high levels.
I think he just plans to hit them all for SA to trigger Offensive Defense. How he's sneak attacking them all, I don't know.
Whip is a horrible weapon anyway. Get a real reach weapon and enlarge yourself.
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Just off the top of my head.
(20 Point buy)
Dwarf Rogue 9 Barbarian 1
Str 19 (17+2 level 4, & 8) + 4 enhancement = Str 23
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 8
HP 95 (using PFSP rules)
Speed : 30ft
AC 20
Mithral Breast Plate +3
Initiative : + 7
Fort : 11
Ref : 10
Will : 6
Hardy + Glory of Old = +3 Sv. spell, spell-like ability's, and poison
Cloak of resistance +3
Great Axe +3 To Hit + 17 Damage 1D12+12
Great Axe W/ Power Attack To Hit + 15 Damage 1D12+18
Sneak Attack 5D6
Trait's
1: Reactionary
2: Glory of Old
Feat's
1: Improved Initiative
3: Toughness
5: Power Attack
7: Furious Focus
9: Weapon Focus: Great Axe
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Offensive Defensive + whip + whirlwind + lung = o snap u cant touch this.Yeah, good luck with that CMB. 'Cause that's what you'll need. Luck.
Edit: It's a whip so I assume you're trying to trip and disarm stuff. Which even Fighters have trouble with once you get to mid to high levels.
No tripping just hitting them all to tiger Offensive Defense.
Just off the top of my head.
(20 Point buy)
Dwarf Rogue 9 Barbarian 1
Str 19 (17+2 level 4, & 8) + 4 enhancement = Str 23
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 8
HP 95 (using PFSP rules)
Speed : 30ft
AC 20
Mithral Breast Plate +3
Initiative : + 7
Fort : 11
Ref : 10
Will : 6
Hardy + Glory of Old = +3 Sv. spell, spell-like ability's, and poison
Cloak of resistance +3
Great Axe +3 To Hit + 17 Damage 1D12+12
Great Axe W/ Power Attack To Hit + 15 Damage 1D12+18
Sneak Attack 5D6
Trait's
1: Reactionary
2: Glory of Old
Feat's
1: Improved Initiative
3: Toughness
5: Power Attack
7: Furious Focus
9: Weapon Focus: Great Axe
You can deal damage with that build, but I'm not sure it's defensively sound. My build has the same number of hit points, AC is 9 points higher, 20% concealment and DR 3 and I still think he's squishy. You've got better saves though.
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I think he just plans to hit them all for SA to trigger Offensive Defense. How he's sneak attacking them all, I don't know.
Whip is a horrible weapon anyway. Get a real reach weapon and enlarge yourself.
Intimidation feats. Already worked a build out were u can do a 30ft aoe intimidate that makes all targets flat-footed to u for x round based off of intimidate. With a proper stat array and feat combination it can easily be able to perform all that it needs to by level 11 when it comes intimidate and whirlwind. if looking at it though from a cap level the character btw has a d20+50 intimidate so making all targets flat-footed by that level would be a cinch. Optimal level to be though for the character to pull this off is at level 15 when it gets the feats to add more points to intimidate. The minimal level though to perform the whirlwind with the build was level 7 sadly.
Ill post it later since im at work and its on my main comp.
No tripping just hitting them all to tiger Offensive Defense.Offensive Defensive + whip + whirlwind + lung = o snap u cant touch this.Yeah, good luck with that CMB. 'Cause that's what you'll need. Luck.
Edit: It's a whip so I assume you're trying to trip and disarm stuff. Which even Fighters have trouble with once you get to mid to high levels.
You realize that whips don't actually deal damage to anything with natural armour, or wearing armour right? I'm also not sure how you'd be triggering sneak attack in the first place. You just flail around with a whip dealing no damage being ignored until the enemies can deal with you at their leisure.
Edit: ah, you posted while I was writing. I'm still not a fan of that build though. for a few reasons.
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You realize that whips don't actually deal damage to anything with natural armour, or wearing armour right? I'm also not sure how you'd be triggering sneak attack in the first place. You just flail around with a whip dealing no damage being ignored until the enemies can deal with you at their leisure.No tripping just hitting them all to tiger Offensive Defense.Offensive Defensive + whip + whirlwind + lung = o snap u cant touch this.Yeah, good luck with that CMB. 'Cause that's what you'll need. Luck.
Edit: It's a whip so I assume you're trying to trip and disarm stuff. Which even Fighters have trouble with once you get to mid to high levels.
Have already take that into consideration in my build. Ive built whip characters b4 but never as tanks but more of as support characters. Go look up the Whip Mastery chain and the Scorpion Whip and it will take care of the weaknesses whips have and built correctly make excellent DPR characters especially as a Two-Weapon Warrior archetype fighter and normal rogue.
Edit: in reply to ur edit. there is always reasons lol.
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At level 10 unless your above a 35 AC it means nothing. Most things with a CR 10 have over a +20 to hit. Unless it's a caster. Light armor is worth more as it lest you keep evasion. And at this level that will mitigate more damage then 9 points of AC.
Example
Fire Giant CR 10
Melee greatsword +21/+16/+11 (3d6+15) or 2 slams +20 (1d8+10)