RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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One thing I forgot to add. In the example given the GM went off of the tactics as written and made up his own on the fly.
Soluzar, as you say, you weren't at the table, and you're getting this second-hand. You're coming close to making serious accusations against this guy, based on hearsay by people with a chip on their shoulder.
If the party was oddly-built, or using unusual tactics, good for them! But Mike is spot-on-the-money: the GM should follow suit and adjust the NPC's tactics.
--+--
Now, I have a question, about a part of GMing I'm not very good about. I'd like some advice: if the party does decide to play up, or does have bad tactics, or bad luck, or whatever, and does end up dying or running away in defeat, the players are likely to not be having much fun. (I ran 4-02: In Wrath's Shadow at a convention in January, and there was an early expenditure of 72 prestige points. The players were pretty upset, half at the encounter and half at their own performance.) How can I turn things around and make for a positive experience? John Compton's suggested that I could run something like "Urge to Evolve" or "Ambush in Absalom" in the time remaining. Any other suggestions?
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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One thing I forgot to add. In the example given the GM went off of the tactics as written and made up his own on the fly.Soluzar, as you say, you weren't at the table, and you're getting this second-hand. You're coming close to making serious accusations against this guy, based on hearsay by people with a chip on their shoulder.
If the party was oddly-built, or using unusual tactics, good for them! But Mike is spot-on-the-money: the GM should follow suit and adjust the NPC's tactics.
--+--
Now, I have a question, about a part of GMing I'm not very good about. I'd like some advice: if the party does decide to play up, or does have bad tactics, or bad luck, or whatever, and does end up dying or running away in defeat, the players are likely to not be having much fun. (I ran 4-02: In Wrath's Shadow at a convention in January, and there was an early expenditure of 72 prestige points. The players were pretty upset, half at the encounter and half at their own performance.) How can I turn things around and make for a positive experience? John Compton's suggested that I could run something like "Urge to Evolve" or "Ambush in Absalom" in the time remaining. Any other suggestions?
One thing I do when I have a scenario end early, either due to amazing or extremely poor performance, is to have an extremely short second scenario on hand that Iknow pretty well. Right now, for 1-5, that's Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible, and for 5-9, it's You Only Die Twice.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Forgot, funny conversation from Mists of Mwangi.
Me: Now don't worry new players. I've never killed anyone who didn't get better.
Veteran player: THat's because they all had the prestige to get better!
Me: Shhhhh, no scaring the newbies.
(Two Vargoyle infections and one ghoul fever, no fatalties though.) When describing the effects of the vargoyle infection, the druid player started drawing tentacles and wings on her unhappy bear's head.
"IF he gets cured does he keep the tentacles?"
"No! You are not having Poohthulu as an animal companion!"
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It just runs the gamut! It's not "PFS" it's the players' play style and the GMs' running style which matters.
I don't know how many games I've played, but I have characters of levels 14, 11, 11, 7, 5 and 2 - I have had one character death (one of the 11s died during "Sarkorian Prophecy", to a critical hit followed by a rend).
I have run about 50 games, of which there have been a fair number of deaths (I don't keep track) and I think 3 TPKs. Some of the deaths were critical hits (probably the leading cause of "undeserved" character death), but most were because of bad player tactics, or just momentary errors of judgement. If a player doesn't make mistakes, his character will generally not die (excepting the unpredictable critical).
Rarely, you'll find players who knowingly, for roleplay or other reasons, place their characters in danger - the "scout" type, for example - and wind up triggering encounters while alone and so on, and they can die a lot; in my own retirement group, we have a scout who routinely dies (as many as 2-3 times in a scenario!), but who comes prepared for it ;)
It's really a very relative question!
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In my 15 times Dming I killed 5 charatcers. Two were pregens that I added to bring the table up to 4 players. I do not hold back on them. In the boss fight if those guys die the players get scared and I feel they get a sense of accomplishment when they scrape by to win. Of the three that were PCs. 2 were because the WHOLE other team ran and left them behind. In one of those someone ran off in the middle of a fight and found the boss and shot him and ran back to the group while playing up. The last was due to poor tactics and rough dice.
I never had a TPK, but I have had two adventures where the party lost.
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I have played about ~50 scenarios and GM about 15 I have had 1 character die twice (1 in rats of round mountain (rezzed) and the other in Eyes of the Ten) as a GM I've killed 3 PCs 1 was in Tide of Twilight
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Well I have had two characters die in 3.5 seasons of PFS one in Rats around hte moutain and one that got eaten b a giant plant.
I killed my first character last week in King of the Storval Stairs shot him with 3 human bane arrows one crit. Tonight alsom got my second character Elder water elemental got one character to -9hp until the cleric chaneled.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Thornkeep death.
First attack: Still standing
Second attack: Still standing
Third attack: Still standing.
4th attack: Crit, max damage, dead.
I was kind of chagrinned.
It also lead to this.
"We've lost Bard two!"
"The Mi-go has cleared the dungeon. The Mi-go has cleared the dungeon."
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I think it just depends on the players and luck. I have 58 table credits and I have only permanently killed 3 characters. (As it happened, 2 were last night.)
I have also killed 4 characters which were later raised and 2 characters under the old module rules which only resulted in lower XP and PP on the final chronicle.
The Godsmouth Heresy – 1 character died due to a critical hit from Skeletal Champion. He was 1st level.
Ruby Phoenix Tournament – 3 died in the fight with the brine dragon. In my estimation, this was the toughest combat in the whole module.
Among the Living #7 (sub-tier 3-4)– a lower level character playing up a sub-tier died during boss fight.
The Golemworks incident #4-03 (sub-tier 8-9) had a character reduced to unconsciousness from a full surprise attack series from the rogue in the Doll House. The character died when an alchemist bomb from a party member missed the target and he was caught in the splash.
On Fortress of the Nail #4-13 (sub-tier 8-9)- 1 character made a poor movement choice which generated and attack of opportunity. The damage dealt was enough for the breath weapon on the monster’s next action to kill the character.
Severing Ties #4-07 (sub-tier 1-2) – 1 character turned to stone by the basilisk. 3 others were also turned to stone so there was not enough basilisk blood to turn him back. 1 character was surprised by the Stone Guardian Golem and took a critical hit. Both were 1st level characters. The remaining party had a close call with the Stone Guardian Golem. Had one character not been 4th level and playing down a sub-tier, I fear that this might have been a TPK.
I have never had a TPK but came close once running the Infernal Vault #55. The four characters finished the scenario with one positive HP among them. They only survived because the BBEG failed her save vs. a Slumber hex.
Storming the Diamond Gate #3-25 got dicey with 4 of the 7 characters knocked unconscious in the final fight with the BBEG.
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"In my opinion having scenarios/modules made easier than written to allow the PCs to succeed regardless of luck or tactics is not fun. It's certainly not fun when I experience this as a player, and it makes me feel useless as a GM because at that point I might as well just sign the chronicles and hand-wave the encounters."
Scenarios made *easier* than written? That's borderline nuts to me. I mean yeah, people have to be smart about when to play up. I think that PFS encounters are on the weak side, but there is still mathematical reality and level scaling.
Level 2 characters playing up at 4-5 have a real chance of running into stuff they just can't handle no matter how optimized they are.
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I make it clear I will not softball games. My group knows, but if I see a player doing something stupid that could kill someone I actually stop the game as a DM and alert them. IE when the the guy above in my other example started the boss fight while the other fight was going on. I said, if you do this I do not see how it will be possible that you will succeed and someone will die as a result of this. He said he was doing it anyway.
I will often interrupt games breifly to adjust things to allow players a heroic means to survive/save someone/succeed. But if an enemy has "fights to the death". That almost means I have them fight to kill as well. When DMs softball against me, it makes me not want to play the game because I did not eanr the win.
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I average around 1 character death per 10 games I GM not counting TPKs and we be goblins silly fun with pregens.
Character Deaths
7* (does not count TPK's)
Animal companions/Familiar
4x ranger/druid ac
1x Witch familiar
TPK's
4 (I do count we be goblins games but that's more people having fun then anything else)
Individual character deaths
You only die twice
-Soloing when the rest of the party was forced to run away
The Flesh Collector
Severing ties
City of Strangers p2
Shadow's fall on Absolam
The Blackros Matrimony (2 characters)
TPKs
Among the Living
Gods Market Gamble
-One character that can heal with a wand, and bad bad bad player tactics combined with bow crits.
We Be Goblins x2
-People having fun doing crazy things as goblins
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Hilariously, I just killed a PC tonight.
I have GMed about 20 games and played 60 more with 6 deaths.
As a GM:
Killed former Chicago Venture Captain Rene Duquesnoy's Cleric/Monk with a critical hit on an AOO by the Zombie Ogre.
The best part?
Tomorrow night he GMs me in Fortress of the Nail...oh crap...
Greataxe crit by a warehouse barbarian on an unlucky paladin.
Kyra ventured out past the barricade into an open field and was summarily ride-by-charged by multiple Tengu Bandits.
As a Player:
I was the healer and didn't heal Valeros right after an encounter. The Remhorhaz found him a tasty treat.
My melee character got Confused and critical hit the nearest creature...the party wizard...
My Life Oracle lifelinked and Shield Othered the entire party...which then pulled multiple encounters into one massive battle. They survived, I didn't.
Near TPKs:
GMing: final fights of Among the Living & Fortress of the Nail.
Playing: final fight of In Wrath's Shadow, game called for time as we were retreating.
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I'm the original poster and I can now report my first player death, it wasn't with out controversy and involved a player being misinformed by other players about the effects of negative levels so he stayed incombat and was hit by a wight for a second time..the party then had to kill the second wight
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I'm the original poster and I can now report my first player death, it wasn't with out controversy and involved a player being misinformed by other players about the effects of negative levels so he stayed incombat and was hit by a wight for a second time..the party then had to kill the second wight
Is there a reason for which you were not informing the player how negative levels worked?
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Well, it is possible the other players were communicating and the GM wasn't totally aware of it. But that said, Netopalis has a point- anytime you introduce a new concept (such as negative levels) to your players, it doesn't hurt to slow the game down and explain it completely. Is it possible that the player was the type that even if he had the accurate picture would have stayed in combat anyway? That is not uncommon- for some players, they will act "heroically" despite the danger.
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On the flip side of that coin, some players will use any excuse to say their character should get a second chance (even if they actually would have acted the same way knowing the rules the first time).
Players need to play by the rules too (even if they don't know them). But for new players, GMs should make it a point to explain rules as they come up. Otherwise it becomes a game of player vs. GM instead of collaborative storytelling.
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Sammy T, did Nathan King GM that one for you? He told me a story when he play at Winter War where a life Oracle took all the damage from 2 very powerful spells and ended up taking like 260 damage.
Yep, that was me with my Life Oracle, Longspear Lux.
I used every trick I had to absorb and ameliorate the party's damage and buy the DPS enough time to burn everything down: Martyr's Bargain (knowing I wouldn't be alive later to eat the delayed damage), Quick Channel, Regular Channel, Combat Healer (which Life Oracles get also)...
'twas a glorious and noble death.
Come down to The Longspear Tavern in the Coins District and he'll tell you the tale that he lovingly calls "Negative Sixty One Hit Points (or I Hate Cultists and You Should Too!)"
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Organized Play Developer
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Personally I have seen one nasty TPK in PFS (it was one of the sanctioned modules) and I had one other character get to one hit point from death but survive. I have heard of others dying and have had other close calls, almost always when playing up with a small group. I have played many scenarios that I would consider easy. There are plenty, however, that are pleasantly challenging. Some can be downright dangerous in my experience, and if you read reviews and talk to other players you can usually get a good idea of which scenarios have that reputation without spoilers. Of course games can vary due to GMs and party composition, but overall if you're looking for a hardcore, everybody gets slaughtered type of game I suggest you pick up a copy of Slumbering Tsar.
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I'm the original poster and I can now report my first player death, it wasn't with out controversy and involved a player being misinformed by other players about the effects of negative levels so he stayed incombat and was hit by a wight for a second time..the party then had to kill the second wightIs there a reason for which you were not informing the player how negative levels worked?
I don't feel I had to, I certainly don't explain each monster in advance to the players and I am not going to point out flaws in their tactics or their buffing routines. If experienced players flawed plans based on misconceptions about how the game works in don't see it as my job to tell them. It's called player skill or lack of it in his case
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I don't feel I had to, I certainly don't explain each monster in advance to the players and I am not going to point out flaws in their tactics or their buffing routines. If experienced players flawed plans based on misconceptions about how the game works in don't see it as my job to tell them. It's called player skill or lack of it in his caseI'm the original poster and I can now report my first player death, it wasn't with out controversy and involved a player being misinformed by other players about the effects of negative levels so he stayed incombat and was hit by a wight for a second time..the party then had to kill the second wightIs there a reason for which you were not informing the player how negative levels worked?Not my style of judging.
I am not an "Them vs. Me" kind of judge, where it's my skill and rules knowledge vs. the players.
I find, as a player, that I do not like to play AGAINST my judge and as a judge, I do not like to play AGAINST my players. I prefer if we play TOGETHER.
As a result, "Gotcha" tactics are something I try to avoid, both as a player and as a judge.
Agreed. The players should be fully informed of the rules, in general. Failing to do so misses a great teaching opportunity as a GM and spreads distrust and bad feelings.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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As a player (not the deceased), at the table, the truth is that the rules around energy drain were not known by DM or players (at least correctly!) and it wasn't clarified until several days later after the event had occured before we reconvened to finish the scenario.
In my humble opinion, this is hardly surprising given players being completely level drained is a fairly rare occurance & the rules around it could definitely be alot clearer in the rulebooks.
Hawk, you did a good job DMing the scenario and kept it fun (which can be very difficult when a player dies) so kudos to you, though i'd not put obscure rule queries down to player skill (or lack of), when we all (players and DM), misunderstood the rules.
I think it's every DM's job to work with players to ensure the correct rules are played to & it's unfortunate in this instance the correct interpretation of the rules mean a player died.
What scenario and tier was this? I have *never* seen a PC die from negative levels.
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What scenario and tier was this? I have *never* seen a PC die from negative levels.It can actually happen pretty easily in a recently-released module:
Which module:
** spoiler omitted **How:
** spoiler omitted **
To be fair to the module the critter stays in a set area so you can use that important skill of running away. The players ran then decided to have a second crack at it
Our GM could have easily killed some PCs with level drain in:
but out of pity he spread the negative levels around the whole party.
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Killed former Chicago Venture Captain Rene Duquesnoy's Cleric/Monk with a critical hit on an AOO by the Zombie Ogre.
The best part?
Tomorrow night he GMs me in Fortress of the Nail...oh crap...
Nessian Warhound
Round 1: Breathes on party.
Round 2: Breathes on party. Kyra is immolated. Alchemist goes down and subsequently bleeds out as...
The Rogue and the Paladin run away and call it a day.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Colorado Springs
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After running roughly 20 scenarios and 4 modules, I've had only 2 character deaths. Both were 1st level, one due to poor tactics (caster opted to enter melee for unknown reasons) and the other due to true misfortune (victim of a max damage crit). As a player of roughly 80 scenarios, I've only seen two deaths, one of which had enough PP to get a raise (the other was another wizard with a dumped Con, kinda deserved to die now that I think of it).
I've heard of many more character deaths, and at least one TPK, but by and large death seems a relatively rare event in PFS. At least in my experience.
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Ok just finished 4 day Easter con where I GMd 3 times and play a few other slots which included Bonekeep and in playing I had 1 death (Bonekeep ha the PA for retrieval and a resurrection due to body eaten by rats.) Thank you Mike Brock for that one. While GMing first ame was edge of your seat type, but they got through it. Fabric of Reality was another story altogether. Both time they trouble with the first fight. For the second fight they got slaughtered with 1 complete TPK (Which I will admit did contain Mike Brock on the table) and the other group fleeing with the 3 bodies of their fallen comrades
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My own characters have died 3 times, but I've been at tables with probably about 15 other PC deaths. That includes 3 at one table and 5 at another, which were pretty much TPK situations except that one or two PCs got away both times. That's in playing enough to have PCs at levels 14, 8, 6, two at level 4, and a small herd of level 1-2s that are mostly built on GM credits.
Oddly, I've never killed a PC as a GM, in exactly 30 sessions as a judge (New star - I've got a binary star system now!). I've come really close a few times, and I can think of two situations where I let newbies get away with a borderline ruling where it was really close and they probably should have died, but I just didn't want to scare away a new player.
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I have seen more characters die in the early levels (1-2) and that has been due to a combination of bad luck and bad choices. The most memorable was an instance when a character tired of the rogue checking for traps rushed to the next door and opened it. Of course that was the trapped one. GM confirmed a crit and rolled max damage. Needless to say rogue was up front checking there on out and we were down one player.
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I have seen more characters die in the early levels (1-2) and that has been due to a combination of bad luck and bad choices. The most memorable was an instance when a character tired of the rogue checking for traps rushed to the next door and opened it. Of course that was the trapped one. GM confirmed a crit and rolled max damage. Needless to say rogue was up front checking there on out and we were down one player.
I always say it takes more game time to heal up after the trap than to find and disable it in the first place....
