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Then what does "sanctioned for use in Organized Play" mean? Why would it only apply to part of the blog, and how do you know which parts?
So you have the list of subdomains for all the Legal gods for PFS, and not just the ones listed in the APG.
So it totally makes sense that they are legal through the blog, doing so in an inconsistent manner and that where you actually have to go to play a follower of the gods (Inner sea world guide)they are not listed as legal?
That makes sense to you and seems rationale? Really?
It makes much more sense that it is only a list of subdomains not a list of legal gods.
Even Mark has stated there is nothing in additional resources that makes Lissala a Legal choice. Though I will admit he does not call out the blog.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If that is the intent, then Additional Resources saying that the blog is legal is just straight-up untrue, and needs to be re-worded to something like "the domains and subdomains in this blog are legal for play, so long as the associated deity is legal through another source". Or something like that.
But having it say "this blog's legal" and having illegal stuff in it is far more nonsensical than what you're talking about.
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Though in general I have no issue with them clearing that up, what needs to really happen is for all of us to post and encourage the Conservative, common sense, logical opinions on these types of things.
It is much safer to encourage the Conservative, common sense, logical rulings until told otherwise by Mike, Mark or John(?). That way you will have less people upset when it goes that way, which most of the time it does.
Seriously, if the blog was say, "hey here is all the Golarion Gods and everything you need for your cleric to worship them", then Yes I would agree with you. But all the Blog is, is a list if subdomains so it should be seen as such, because the blog alone is not enough to actually pick the gods, you need to reference books that specifically do not call them out as legal.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Assuming that the Additional Resources page means what it says is "far reaching rulings on PFS rules that don't fit logic or common sense"?
I completely concede that the intent might be what you say. But the Additional Resources page needs to reflect that.
Damn near every day, someone comes onto the boards, saying "Is X legal in PFS?" and the chorus repeats "Check the Additional Resources page" for the billionth time. If something's not legal, AR had better not be saying it is.
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Just so he doesn't feel alone, I actually agree with Dragnmoon's interpretation on this one. I could be convinced otherwise, but if the blog was presented as "here's all the subdomains for the Gods of Golarion," there's nothing in that presentation that suggests (to me) that all the gods on that list are necessarily legal for PFS play.
Just my two cents.
Regardless, I agree that a clearer statement on the AR page would be a good thing.
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If that is the intent, then Additional Resources saying that the blog is legal is just straight-up untrue, and needs to be re-worded to something like "the domains and subdomains in this blog are legal for play, so long as the associated deity is legal through another source". Or something like that.
But having it say "this blog's legal" and having illegal stuff in it is far more nonsensical than what you're talking about.
For what it is worth, I completely agree with Jiggy.
Any player new to PFS who goes through the Additional Resources page and sees "Website Blogs : the following blog posts are sanctioned for use in Organized Play. Please note that this applies to the context of the blog post only and not the comments" will dive right into the posts and will believe that the gods mentioned there are legal for play.
If they are not, it should be clearly worded as such either on the Additional Resources page or on the blog post itself.
After all, a newcomer will have free access to the blog post, but maybe not to the Additional Resources where it appears that the god he chose from the blog post is in fact not legal.
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Don, those Blogs are just to clear up Subdomains for all Golarion Deities they are not a legal list of gods for PFS. If they were it would state such just like every other legal source for gods in additional resources does.
Even Mark does not think there is anything in additional resources that makes Lissala as a example, legal for PFS.
Every time a God is made legal in additional resources it is called out as such. It does not do that for the Blogs.
While we can not speak for Mark, I believe he did not consider the blog post in his review and has not commented publicly on its scope after it was pointed out.
Is this turning into a RAW vs RAI thing?
Because it seems pretty clear that Mark dosen't think Lissala is a legal choice.
-j
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I updated the Document with the list deities that are legal choices for PCs.
No new gods were added but a new source was added to additional resources.
Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity: Deities: all deities on the inside front cover are legal for play
The following Deities have the above added as a source:
Apsu
Cayden Cailean
Desna
Erastil
Iomedae
Kofusachi
Kurgess
Milani
Qi Zhong
Sarenrae
Shelyn
Shizuru
Torag
Tsukiyo
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Okay, I need some help here.
A friend of mine wants to play a Paladin of Apsu (going into Dragon Disciple). "Faiths of Purity" clearly notes (right there on page 18) that Apsu does not grant spells to non-dragons, so he has no PC clerics or paladins.
I understand that, somewhere on the boards, James Jacobs has disagreed with that text.
Is that good enough for my friend to expect that a PFS GM should let him play the character?
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I don't think in this case a GM can hold the character to something in a book they may not own (yeah I know, this flies against a couple other issues like Animals and Ultimate Equipment stuff.)
But the fluff from Faith's of Purity I don't think can be held to a PC in PFSOP.
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"Faiths of Purity" clearly notes (right there on page 18) that Apsu does not grant spells to non-dragons, so he has no PC clerics or paladins.
I'd say go for it in this case, but if he wants to avoid all controversy, he could play a spell-less paladin archetype. (Assuming he's taking 4+ levels in Paladin, instead of just 1-2).
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Andrew, he does own (a PDF of) the book.
And we hold PCs to the fluff of "clerics and paladins need to worship a god" even though that might also be in books they do not necessarily own.
In PFS, that's not fluff; it's crunch:
Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the starmust choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source receive their powers from a deity. Druids, oracles, and rangers are the exception to this rule.
(For certain definitions of crunch, I suppose. Regardless, it's in the Core Assumption and a free product to boot.)
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I updated the Document with the list deities that are PFS legal choices for PCs.
A lot of new gods were added (45 Empyreal Lords) from a new source that was added to additional resources.
Some Gods were already authorized but the below book was added as a source.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Chronicles of the Righteous: Misc: all empyreal lords on the inside front cover and pages 6–29 are legal
Andoletta
Arshea
Ashava
Korada
Ragathiel
Sinashakti
Soralyon
Valani
Ylimancha
Arqueros LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Benorus NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Bharnarol NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Black Butterfly CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Cernunnos CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Chadali CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Chucaro CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Dalenydra NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Damerrich LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Eldas LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Eritrice NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Falayna LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Ghenshau LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Halcamora NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Hembad CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Immonhiel CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Irez NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Jaidz NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Jalaijatali CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Kelinahat LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Keltheald CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Kroina LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Lalaci CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Lorris NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Lymnieris LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Lythertida NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Marishi CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Neshen LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Olheon LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Ondisso NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Picoperi CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Pulura CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Reymenda CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Rowdrosh NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Seramaydiel NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Shei NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Smiad LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Svarozic LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Tanagaar LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Thisamet CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Tolc CG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment CG/NG/CN)
Uskyeria NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Vildeis LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Winlas LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Zohls LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting - Chronicle of the Righteous (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
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I updated the Document with the list deities that are PFS legal choices for PCs.
A lot of new gods were added (45 Empyreal Lords) from a new source that was added to additional resources.
Some Gods were already authorized but the below book was added as a source.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Chronicles of the Righteous: Misc: all empyreal lords on the inside front cover and pages 6–29 are legal
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Well holy crap they must have just done this. Are they sticking to the rules for empyreal lords and subdomains presented in Chronicles or are they going to assign them individually?
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Yeah this is why my CG cleric of Groetus is not a CG cleric of Azathoth T-T. Here's hoping Chronicles of the Righteous gets legalized quickly *fingers crossed*.
Thanks Dragnmoon, that's really helpful.
It appears that it is already on additional resources.
Yay on Mystery Cultist being legal, boo on blood of the martyr not being legal. (I mean, it makes sense that it's not legal. I'm just complaining because it was perfect for my low-level oracle I just started.)
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Yeah this is why my CG cleric of Groetus is not a CG cleric of Azathoth T-T. Here's hoping Chronicles of the Righteous gets legalized quickly *fingers crossed*.
Thanks Dragnmoon, that's really helpful.
It appears that it is already on additional resources.
Yay on Mystery Cultist being legal, boo on blood of the martyr not being legal. (I mean, it makes sense that it's not legal. I'm just complaining because it was perfect for my low-level oracle I just started.)
Hey if they follow the rules for subdomains presented in Chronicles of the Righteous then it's all fine by me, so ready to finally be able to have a cleric caster with the dark tapestry subdomain.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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Where are the rules on subdomains in Chronicles of the Roghteous? My skimming through cant seem to find them...
If you use the subdomains presented in the
Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide, clerics of empyreal
lords gain access to all subdomain options available to them
from their empyreal lord’s domains, with the exception
of the following subdomains (which are never granted by
empyreal lords): Daemon, Decay, Deception, Demon, Devil,
Inevitable, Murder, Nightmare, Protean, and Undead.
I'd go out on a limb and say Black Butterfly wouldn't give out the Dark Tapestry subdomain, though, since the following is in her description:
While she despises all the forces of evil,
she holds particular enmity for the entities of the Dark
Tapestry, and it is said she possesses great knowledge
about the Dark Tapestry to which she refuses to give voice.
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Where are the rules on subdomains in Chronicles of the Roghteous? My skimming through cant seem to find them...If you use the subdomains presented in the
Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide, clerics of empyreal
lords gain access to all subdomain options available to them
from their empyreal lord’s domains, with the exception
of the following subdomains (which are never granted by
empyreal lords): Daemon, Decay, Deception, Demon, Devil,
Inevitable, Murder, Nightmare, Protean, and Undead.I'd go out on a limb and say Black Butterfly wouldn't give out the Dark Tapestry subdomain, though, since the following is in her description:
While she despises all the forces of evil,
she holds particular enmity for the entities of the Dark
Tapestry, and it is said she possesses great knowledge
about the Dark Tapestry to which she refuses to give voice.
HEY! Don't wreck my dreams man! I did this dance already when I built my Groetus Cleric I am not going to be shot down again! lol Anyways I think it could work it would just mean that BB is theoretically connected with creatures of the Dark tapestry or forces therein that are not necessarily evil. Remember only Nyartholotep and Shub are actually solid evil outer gods we've seen yet so somewhere, in the depths of space there could be good followers *eyes trail off to look at the flumphs*.
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If you use the subdomains presented in the
Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide, clerics of empyreal
lords gain access to all subdomain options available to them
from their empyreal lord’s domains, with the exception
of the following subdomains (which are never granted by
empyreal lords): Daemon, Decay, Deception, Demon, Devil,
Inevitable, Murder, Nightmare, Protean, and Undead.
All sub-domain options? Isn't that a bit much? I thought most of the actual gods only have one of the two options per domain.
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... Remember only Nyartholotep and Shub are actually solid evil outer gods we've seen yet so somewhere, in the depths of space there could be good followers *eyes trail off to look at the flumphs*.
Hmm..., if we look at the entire Cthulhu pantheon, and how Lovecraft handled them, I see all the Outer Gods as being a form of Chaotic Neutral so far off the chart that while they sit at the table, Good, Evil, Lawful, and what we call Chaotic are all just sitting on the same dinner plate waiting to be mixed together with a fork.
Maybe we invent a new alignment for them. "Insanely Weird" perhaps?
In my mind, a true Cthonic breach is one of the few things that would bring demons, devils and angels to the same side of the battle. There's no such thing as Good and Evil if reality itself goes.
So yeah, let's authorize them! :)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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All sub-domain options? Isn't that a bit much? I thought most of the actual gods only have one of the two options per domain.If you use the subdomains presented in the
Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide, clerics of empyreal
lords gain access to all subdomain options available to them
from their empyreal lord’s domains, with the exception
of the following subdomains (which are never granted by
empyreal lords): Daemon, Decay, Deception, Demon, Devil,
Inevitable, Murder, Nightmare, Protean, and Undead.
Well, the Empyreal Lords are stuck with a few limiting factors: every single one of them has the Good domain, all of the archons have Law, all of the azatas have Chaos. The angels and agathions run the gamut with their three other domains, though. I would have had a hearty laugh had the rule of Empyreal Lords from outside the list in this book always giving the Good domain been applied to the ones listed as well.
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Quick Question on a related topic. My apologies if it is listed somewhere and I missed it.
The additional resources page has many 'custom summons' lists. There are 15, but only four of them list the deity associated. Would someone mind listing which resource would be of interest to which followers?
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Pathfinder Adventure Path #26: "The Sixfold Trial"
Pathfinder Adventure Path #29: "Mother of Flies"
Pathfinder Adventure Path #32: "Rivers Run Red"
Pathfinder Adventure Path #35: "War of the River Kings"
Pathfinder Adventure Path #38: "Racing to Ruin"
Pathfinder Adventure Path #41: "The Thousand Fangs Below"
Pathfinder Adventure Path #44: "Trial of the Beast" ?Pharasma?
Pathfinder Adventure Path #47: "Ashes at Dawn"
Pathfinder Adventure Path #50: "Night of Frozen Shadows"
Pathfinder Adventure Path #53: "Tide of Honor"
Pathfinder Adventure Path #55: "The Wormwood Mutiny" Besmaran
Pathfinder Adventure Path #59: "The Price of Infamy"
Pathfinder Adventure Path #62: "Curse of the Lady's Light" Torag
Pathfinder Adventure Path #68: "The Shackled Hut" Milani
Pathfinder Adventure Path #64: "Beyond the Doomsday Door" Groetus
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Quick Question on a related topic. My apologies if it is listed somewhere and I missed it.
The additional resources page has many 'custom summons' lists. There are 15, but only four of them list the deity associated. Would someone mind listing which resource would be of interest to which followers?
.Pathfinder Adventure Path #26: "The Sixfold Trial" Iomedae
Pathfinder Adventure Path #29: "Mother of Flies" Asmodeus
Pathfinder Adventure Path #32: "Rivers Run Red" Erastil
Pathfinder Adventure Path #35: "War of the River Kings" Gorum
Pathfinder Adventure Path #38: "Racing to Ruin" ?Nethys?
Pathfinder Adventure Path #41: "The Thousand Fangs Below" ?Gozreh?
Pathfinder Adventure Path #44: "Trial of the Beast" Pharasma, confirmed
Pathfinder Adventure Path #47: "Ashes at Dawn" Urgathoa
Pathfinder Adventure Path #50: "Night of Frozen Shadows" Shelyn
Pathfinder Adventure Path #53: "Tide of Honor" Irori
Pathfinder Adventure Path #55: "The Wormwood Mutiny" Besmaran
Pathfinder Adventure Path #59: "The Price of Infamy" Norgorber
Pathfinder Adventure Path #62: "Curse of the Lady's Light" Torag
Pathfinder Adventure Path #68: "The Shackled Hut" Milani
Pathfinder Adventure Path #64: "Beyond the Doomsday Door" Groetus
There you go. I'm only unsure about which goes where for Nethys & Gozreh. Yes, Pharasma info was found in 'Trial of the Beast'.
This may be a really dumb question, but why are those gods not listed/available? I really wanted to play a Yog-Sothoth Cleric.Yup, not on any list in the books authorized.
Thanks Dragnmoon, that's really helpful.
Well, Cthulhu definitely wouldn't be available because he's never been encountered on Golarion. I suspect Lissala is on the list because her followers formed one of the central antagonist forces in Year 4 content.
Yog-Sothoth...'cause he/she/it is just freaky?..
Has there been a ruling on subdomains for Gods and such, if the entry doesn't list subdomains?
example:
Chronicles of the Righteous
The Lords of the Empyrean in the inside front cover only list the domains, with no subdomains listed either there or in entry farther into the book.
Can we assign/use a subdomain, or are we limited to the domains?
I suspected as much, but was hoping to be able to do so, or that there was a list somewhere that I had missed.
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I regret to say that we can't assign subdomains ourself in PFS.
Actually, this is what it says about subdomains in the section on Empyreal Worship in the Chronicles of the Righteous.
If you use the subdomains presented in the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide, clerics of empyreal lords gain access to all subdomain options available to them from their empyreal lord’s domains, with the exception of the following subdomains (which are never granted by empyreal lords): Daemon, Decay, Deception, Demon, Devil, Inevitable, Murder, Nightmare, Protean, and Undead.
I interpret that as meaning subdomains are available, within those restrictions. I could see an argument stating that because this page was not specifically referenced in the Additional Resources that it doesn't apply, however my counter-argument to that would be that it is in the section that explains how the worship of the Empyreal Lords on the front cover actually work.
I regret to say that we can't assign subdomains ourself in PFS.Actually, this is what it says about subdomains in the section on Empyreal Worship in the Chronicles of the Righteous.
If you use the subdomains presented in the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide, clerics of empyreal lords gain access to all subdomain options available to them from their empyreal lord’s domains, with the exception of the following subdomains (which are never granted by empyreal lords): Daemon, Decay, Deception, Demon, Devil, Inevitable, Murder, Nightmare, Protean, and Undead.I interpret that as meaning subdomains are available, within those restrictions. I could see an argument stating that because this page was not specifically referenced in the Additional Resources that it doesn't apply, however my counter-argument to that would be that it is in the section that explains how the worship of the Empyreal Lords on the front cover actually work.
Great.
Thanks.