if strong enough magic, you could become a god... granted, that isn't exclusive to good characters
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Get lots of children. Care for them. Train them, and others, in magic and instill responsibility for their actions. Support a ruler who does good or found your own kingdom. When your time draws near, use your full might to smash a great evil, if you can do so without starting wars. Before you die, write a book about your life, and spend time discussing with ageless beings that can help in the future. Once it is time, there is bound to be some exalted magic that can only be done through sacrifice.
Or reincarnate. Being a badger is the s$*~.
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If you Good and die you get to hang around hot babes like the Azata and the Archon trumpet( Or the Astral deva for the ladies) in the afterlife. If you are evil you end up as a Lemure in the afterlife. Think evils have much higher motivation to avoid their reward then Good guys.Hey. Don't assume we're all straight. I think brijidines are hot!
Well there's another motivation for some characters to pass on: Not having to worry about life-threatening injuries having relationships with certain outsiders.
Also, lillendi and chaotic angels FTW.
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If you can get your hands on enough djezet, there's one very fun and potent transhuman possibility in Pathfinder #66.Got a page number? I missed it.
I can't recall the page number, but it'll be the Mezlan entry in the bestiary. There's partial creation info at the end. Becoming a Mezlan has its own issues besides the cost, but it's a cool alternative for people looking to be a hard-to-permanently-kill immortal person.
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Good casters get...
...allies and minions that do NOT try to stab them in the back.
What? Why? My evil powers are more than enough to control my min--ack!
Well, for one, it's not exactly the easy way. It specifically says you have to do a bunch of dangerous quests and spend a lot of money to become a lich. Then it kind of still sucks to be you, since who wants to look like a zombie for all eternity?
Good wizard doesn't have to go out of his way, has friends, and isn't shoehorned into an eternal career of magic terrorism or abandoned castle guarding.
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But that's at level 20. Lichdom can be done much earlier. As usual, evil has the 'shortcut'.Well, any wizard who reaches 20th level can take the immortality discovery .
But otherwise, yeah, I'd agree with the "good is hard (but you go to heaven)" line of thought above.
Doug M.
Reincarnate can be done much earlier than lichdom.
In nearly thirty years of gaming, I've had exactly one character reach 20th level, and he was happy to retire. So I'm not sure this is really a problem in practical terms.
That said:
Evil characters concentrate on themselves, the ruthless unsmiling devotion to self. Naturally they want more More MORE!!! POWER!!!
(Or something.)
Good characters concentrate on making everyone better. Their students, their children, their town, their nation, their religion... there are so many interesting things to do that power is almost a side-note. And you get an infinity of happiness and things to do on the plane of your afterlife, too.
Plus you get to cooperate with other characters without nearly so much fear of backstabbing -- we all know that a single BBEG goes down very quickly to action economy by a capable party, so why DO liches want to be the BBEG that gets taken down by the cooperating good characters?
I dont know if they changed it in PF I but in 3.5 there was the veru rare exception of a good liche because it doesnt state that it is always evil.
alingment is always a factor that is considered.
I am not sure how it was in 3.5, but in Pathfinder there is an 'any evil' requirement.
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I believe that one component of the lichdom process has been described (van Richten?) to be the life of an intelligent being. That in itself could be interpreted as only evil people would. Still, if a willing sacrifice was made, that would change. Second, liches are a research career. They do their magic, preferably undisturbed, and emotions don't really enter into it. Someone becomes a hindrance, they die. The lich will not feel regret or remorse, nor grief, shame, happiness or much of anything. Curiosity, though, that is still a thing, as is a vague satisfaction when reaching a conclusion.
Certainly, not all liches need to conform to this, but it is how I consider them. And that way of being is most easily defined as evil. Even though the lich itself will claim that it is above considerations of good and evil.
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Personally I always liked what the Aerenal Elves of Eberron did with their creation of the Deathless. Basically it's a corpse infused with positive energy instead of negative energy like an undead.
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Outside of Pathfinder, there was the Arch -lich in 2nd ed.
There were soem good aligned lich's in earlier versions of dnd, pathfinder chose to tag the evil req for some reason.. Legally the immortality discovery i suppose.. A carefully worded wish every 50 years might work lol..
Cast Create Demi -plane have it where the continent is always just out of reach of reach of the sun's rays, and fill it with a large number animals. Then kidnap the most beautiful vampire you can find. Close all access to the demi-plane in or out. Get turned spend the rest of eternity redeeming the young lithe vampire.
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Yes, because "Good is dumb."Perhaps good is for cowards and the unmotivated?
Good is for anti-capitalists.
Evil is for those who are self starters and driven to always improve themselves.
...and as long as Evil thinks that, Good will always have the advantage.
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In almost every form of fiction, the quest for immortality is almost always seen as a bad thing. Even if good guys are momentarily tempted, the act of cheating death is usually seen as a bad thing that is against the natural order.
That said, immortality can be offered by a divine being or pushed onto a character in some way so that individual can continue being a force against evil. The Forgotten Realms has the Chosen of Mystra, which fits into that mold to an extent (although originally Elminster was just a dude who drank a bunch of potions of longevity).
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Most liches look that way, because being mages, they simply don't put any priority on cosmetic maintennce. Szass Tamm leader of the Red Wizards in the Forgotten Realms was a notable exception to the rule, he did extensive self-maintenance, and relied heavily on scents to cover the smell of decay.Well, for one, it's not exactly the easy way. It specifically says you have to do a bunch of dangerous quests and spend a lot of money to become a lich. Then it kind of still sucks to be you, since who wants to look like a zombie for all eternity?
So did Azalin Rex from Ravenloft except he used illusions.
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Years ago I had a character named Benarin Stouthammer (Rin, to his friends), a stoutblooded halfling from 2e. He began in the kit Halfling Homesteader and his mission was to found a new home for his halfling brethren. He had some ridiculous skills per the kit so he was a blacksmith, a carpenter, a woodsman...etc. He was ALSO a fighter with what amounted to a 20 lb sledgehammer.
Fast forward to the end of the campaign. Rin's 16th level, converted to 3e and he's got his place cited and a little farm started; his relatives are just starting to trickle in. Then the campaign culminates with our PCs finding that the source of all the troubles we'd experienced were all b/cause of Baba Yaga's hut and she's just materialized for the endgame nearby.
In the final battle w/her Rin is grappling the hag. During the struggle he asks her why she's so evil, why she is doing this to the multiverse. She crows that once her plan is complete she'll live forever. Then the GM, speaking as Baba Yaga, asks "don't you want to live forever tiny man?" and makes a phenominal roll, throwing Benarin across the room.
I literally got out of my chair, made like I was standing up in character, locked eyes with my GM and made the following speech:
"No, I don't want to live forever, watching everything I've ever worked for, even the things I coveted, fade away into dust; people I care about die; the ideals I hold, however misguided, be replaced, outdated and forgotten. But then, I don't have to live forever to be immortal. Look outside and you'll see a little farm, and on that farm an anvil. I carved my name into that hunk of metal, and around it a community is growing. My name will be remembered there. Once I'm done with you I'll marry my sweetheart Mary and we'll have children, and they'll have children. A thousand years from now you'll be floating, alone and forgotten, bound to some pitiful chair; I'll be dead and my home may be gone, but my name will carry on and I will be remembered. THAT is immortality: to love, be loved, and be remembered forever in the hearts of those who come after you. I PITY you and all that you hope to become."
In that universe Baba Yaga AND her hut have been destroyed utterly. Meanwhile beside a picturesque waterfall is a thriving little halfling shire the locals call Stouthammer Falls. There is a modest keep, built by dwarves once for the defense of the place, which has been converted into a great library. The repository was founded by Marissa in her maiden name of Thisslethorn, before she married Benarin. Now her great granddaughter, Clarissa Thisslethorn is the current curator and the middle-aged librarian, herself a retired adventurer, teaches new generations the history of their home and of a brave, strong and bright young man who set out into the wilds to find it.
THAT'S what the good guys get.
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The Forgotten Realms has the Chosen of Mystra, which fits into that mold to an extent (although originally Elminster was just a dude who drank a bunch of potions of longevity).Mystra used her Chosen as a sort of backup bank for her power. So while technically her Chosen were blessed with long years, she went through quite a few of them that literally burned out.
Now that she's dead for good this time, Elminster may be back on the longevity potions, and the other Chosen are probably kaput.
I hope he goes soon because I never liked him.
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If I were a lich, I would just cast shapechange, and keep casting it every time the duration ran out. A high level spellcaster with a high spellcasting stat can keep it up 24/7 (especially with Extend Spell or a metamagic rod). That ought to take care of the rotting flesh and smell of death aspects of lichdom.
It has some other obvious benefits too, like being able to turn into most anything you want as a free action each round.
If you can get your hands on enough djezet, there's one very fun and potent transhuman possibility in Pathfinder #66.
Djezet?
Yeah that one offers quite a lot of roleplaying possibilities. Only it´s so rare and expensive^^ Not sure PC´s can afford this.Sun orchid elixir, anybody?
Ruyan.
They could, theoretically, steal it or better the formula.
A demiplane with no time flow.
Then cast/find a way to cast astral projection until you garner enough experience to become immortal in some way.
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Part of being a good alignment in my mind which makes good spellcasters distinctly different from their evil brethern who go to such lengths to prolong their mortal existences, is that Good characters acknowledge that their time on the world should be limited... to make room for others to come after them. In contrast, immortality is by any measure, a selfish desire to hold on to your place even at the expense of those that come after you.
So if you're immortal and good remember to minimize your carbon footprint.
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If you can get your hands on enough djezet, there's one very fun and potent transhuman possibility in Pathfinder #66.Djezet?
It's one of the Seven Starmetals found on Golarion. Chemically, it resembles Mercury in that it is liquid at 'room temperature'. There is a semi-construct/ooze creature that is created by basically magically rendering a sentient being into a magically prepared vat of the stuff...
They're called Mezlan & found on pg 90 of Dead Heart of Xin.Personally, I wouldn't want to go that route as it seems likely to be at least as traumatic, psychically, as Lichdom. Also, it sucks if you are a spellcaster because you would lose all your magical abilities. You can 'siphon' magic from others, but only so much & it is a piddling amount by comparison to what a high-level caster is capable of.
edit: But then I'm not a big fan of transhumanism in the first place.
One solution that is class neutral and alignment neutral is having someone or something to cast reincarnation for you. An intelligent magic item with a purpose can do this, and a cohort or follower from the Leadership feat can do it (though followers are limited to 6th level, so they may need a scroll or staff to do so).
Good spellcasters go to Heaven and live happily ever after.
Evil spellcasters become Liches to avoid going to Hell and burning for all eternity.
This.
If heaven is all that was promised to you, why wouldn't you wish for death?
If I were a lich, I would just cast shapechange, and keep casting it every time the duration ran out. A high level spellcaster with a high spellcasting stat can keep it up 24/7 (especially with Extend Spell or a metamagic rod). That ought to take care of the rotting flesh and smell of death aspects of lichdom.
It has some other obvious benefits too, like being able to turn into most anything you want as a free action each round.
And when you (the lich) discovered that shapechange has a diminishing effect on the undead; that after just a couple of years, you'll be unable to shapechange at all, will you fly into a rage? Kill all your servants? Swear black oaths of destruction to all the descendants of everyone who ever stood in your way to greatness and then utter dark curses up at the gods?
This REALLY does sound like you're setting yourself up for disappointment. As a GM, I wouldn't be able to resist. :) Such a great opportunity for black rage and drama and a motivation to discover some other avenue of black magic before you rot into dust "So much for plan A. Back to the old drawing board."
When you get to this level of power, you're not hunting monsters and little prizes anymore. You're making your mark upon the world. You become a PLAYER on the world stage. The gods move pawns to protect you until they're ready to use you, or sacrifice you.
But what DO great magicians do as they grow in power, and the Summer of their lives goes by, and they enter Autumn? There are some great responses in this thread, but only ONE of you has mentioned the first thing I planned around when I wrote my current campaign: Astral Projection
When Astral Projection. is cast, your body enters a state of suspended animation indefinitely, while your astral self explores the myriad planes beyond for as long as you like. Now imagine a Gandalf-like character, someone who has carefully cultivated relationship with all sorts of powerful beings, including servants of the gods or the gods themselves. It seems to me that a deity would find it a great investment to invest an archon or two to help guard a silver cord so that one of his best servants can travel the planes and get things done, don't you?
Now...imagine the handful of wizards who ever made it to 17th level and became able to cast Astral Projection...it stands to reason that those wise men and women would invest their adventurer's fortunes to ...do what? Build themselves secret vaults in which they would hide their suspended bodies, of course. And there they would lie for the history of the world...powerful wizards traveling the outer planes, awaiting the call to return to battle those wizards who took the easy and selfish route to immortality.
Why is lichdom selfish by comparison? To transcend mortality requires one to either defy the gods, or ultimately serve them. Whether good or evil, one must choose one's path carefully, or accept the ultimate destiny of man is to die.
Disagree. Reputation has much more to do with how intelligently you play your character than anything else. I have played evil characters who aquired significant power at the expense of others while still being very well liked. One character was praised as a hero on three separate occassions for stopping a tragedy that he himself had unleashed.
And if word ever got out, if anyone ever bothered to investigate you, your evil PC is hosed. It's a lot easier to ruin a rep permanently than it is to build a good one.
Evil is inherently destructive by nature, and will always indulge if given enough leeway and lack of consequence. Unfortunately, there is ALWAYS bad consequences if given enough time.
One solution that is class neutral and alignment neutral is having someone or something to cast reincarnation for you. An intelligent magic item with a purpose can do this, and a cohort or follower from the Leadership feat can do it (though followers are limited to 6th level, so they may need a scroll or staff to do so).And this is not something that a proper Druid should do. They may cast reincarnate if they figure that a soul should have another spin around the wheel, but not as a recurring set of spells for some bastard who won't submit to the natural cycle of things.Witches can Reincarnate too.
Without any of those pesky ethical issues.
Reincarnate sucks rocks. Ever read the spell?
Create a demiplane with the timeless trait and stay there forever. I did not read all replies so it may have been mentioned already.
And then go mad out of boredom or suicidal out of isolation.