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Something I find very amusing is they also have made it so becoming a lich is no longer an aligned thing specifically. There is no defined ritual and the ritual is specific to the caster in question.
For example, my Paladin who sought to become an undying knight in her death-goddess' service. Part of her overreaching goals involved looking for ancient esoteric secrets and secrets of transferring her soul into a receptacle. In fact, the creation of her phylactery was in a way a special task that she had before her, for she had to create it herself and it was supposed to be a personal thing.
IIRC, I was going to have it be a gift that her father had given her when he came home to see her once. Like a locket or somesuch.
Archliches are no more Generic than Liches
but i'd rather just simply allow liches to be good or neutral to begin with.
One of the more amusing adventures I ever ran involved a lich (the normal kind) beating the stuffing out of a party of 13th level characters, resulting in each of the party members cutting and running for their own lives, with the Paladin being the last one to leave the fight willingly (after he had de-petrified the party's sorcerer twice). The only one who remained was a cleric whom everyone thought was a damn fool for refusing to leave (but the player exclaimed that if she was going to die in a fight she wanted it to be this one because it was just too epic).
Since it was an online game, everyone who left the fight also left the room to head back to the lobby where other stuff was going on. The cleric and lich fought, and fought, and fought, and fought. Until both of them were basically doing the spellcaster equivalent of panting at each other and waiting for the next move.
They basically stared at each other for a bit and decided to call a truce. Neither of them seemed to be making any great headway in beating the other to a pulp, and the lich had tried to talk it out with the party (she was evil but smart and sophisticated dangit :P). So the cleric and her dropped their spellcasting and - hesitantly - moved to the lich's study where the lich and the cleric discussed why they were raiding her onyx tower, and the two played a game of chess as they discussed their activities.
Turned out the lich wanted to do a project and attempt to create a Utopia (mostly because she was bored, but also at the urgings of her daughter - another lich - to use their power for something a bit more meaningful than seeking power for power's sake). The locals were not really big on the idea however and some conflict was created. The cleric, after discussing with the lich made a few deals, noting that while she didn't particularly care for the lich she wasn't finding much fault with her intentions and would be willing to talk to the rulers of the land as a mediator between the lich and them if it would settle any conflict. The lich was so amused by the cleric's civility that she gifted her with a sentient magic sword the lich kept in her study (that sword was pretty funny sometimes) to signify her as a friend of the lich and her subordinates.
So while the rest of the party fled the tower and left the cleric for dead, the cleric ended up walking out of the tower, unharmed, with the sword from the lich's study, like a boss. It was funny because the next day in the gaming lobby everyone was like "omg, you're not dead!?", and she was like "Nope". And they were like "You killed the lich!?", and she was like "Nope". Everyone was like "O.o, wha!?", and for a while they thought she must have gone to the dark side. XD
the party was too focused on hackenslashing, that is a good story of an evil but approachable lich. i would have sought to make the deal too. it's not like the lich was commiting blatant acts of slaughter in public. she was just sitting at home and plotting a utopia on her daughter's request. i'd consider that worthy of a bit of good karma on the liches part for intent. good example of "lawful evil done right."
most PCs try to look for justified races to slaughter based upon their skin, a policy i prefer is, asking if the thing can be reasoned as an OOC question with a sense motive check with before rolling initiative. i have an 80% chance of maxing sense motive if i have spare skill points. i usually take diplomacy and perception with most of my PCs, regardless of crossclass skill or bad attribute bonuses.
i'd rate the cleric a better hero for finding a solution that didn't involve slaughter. even if it were at the last moment.
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I'm not a big fan of the always evil mentality Paizo has adopted for Paizo. One of the big arguments behind Undead being evil is they are 'powered' by Negative Energy, which is the opposite of Positive Energy, which living beings are 'powered' by.
This is basically stating Negative Energy is inherently evil, and Positive Energy is inherently good. Which is odd, in that the Unleash Positive Energy spells (aka, Cure Spells) and Unleash Negative Energy spells (aka Inflict Spells) are neither Good nor Evil.
It's even funnier, when you stop and look at the Planar Traits for the Positive and Negative planes. The Negative Energy Plane is Major Negative-Dominant:
Negative-Dominant
Planes with this trait are vast, empty reaches that suck the life out of travelers who cross them. They tend to be lonely, haunted planes, drained of color and filled with winds bearing the soft moans of those who died within them. There are two kinds of negative-dominant traits: minor negative-dominant and major negative-dominant. On minor negative-dominant planes, living creatures take 1d6 points of damage per round. At 0 hit points or lower, they crumble into ash.
Major negative-dominant planes are even more dangerous. Each round, those within must make a DC 25 Fortitude save or gain a negative level. A creature whose negative levels equal its current levels or Hit Dice is slain, becoming a wraith. The death ward spell protects a traveler from the damage and energy drain of a negative-dominant plane.
Living creatures have much to fear about that plane. Unless, you know, they have Deathward on.
The Positive Energy Plane is even worse though. It's Major Positive-Dominant:
Positive-Dominant
An abundance of life characterizes planes with this trait. Like negative-dominant planes, positive-dominant planes can be either minor or major. A minor positive-dominant plane is a riotous explosion of life in all its forms. Colors are brighter, fires are hotter, noises are louder, and sensations are more intense as a result of the positive energy swirling through the plane. All individuals in a positive-dominant plane gain fast healing 2 as an extraordinary ability.
Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, which kills it.
The Negative Energy Plane kills living creature, the Positive Energy Plane simply kills everything. It's even kind of funny that the way it's stated, an Undead can travel to the Positive Energy Plane, gain fast healing and heal itself and then travel out of the plane once it's wounds are closed.
Undead being evil is like saying toys are Evil because electricity kills people. Undead are nothing more than Negative Energy fueled robots. Animating a skeleton doesn't prevent the soul of the person who's body was animated from passing on, it just fills the Skeleton with enough energy it can move.
Undead aren't like Robots, that's what Constructs and Golems are for!
-Random Person
Building a Golem is, in my opinion, a truly evil act. Have you ever read what exactly the construction process consists of?
Golems are magically created automatons of great power. They stand apart from other constructs in the nature of their animating force—golems are granted their magical life via an elemental spirit, typically that of an earth elemental. The process of creating a golem binds the spirit to the artificial body, merging it with this specially prepared vessel and subjecting it to the will of the golem's creator.
Being mindless, golems do nothing without orders from their creators. They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of complex strategy or tactics.....
So to create a Golem, you kidnap an Elemental Spirit, destroy it's capability to think for itself, and then force it to submit to your will, turning it into an unthinking, unquestioning servant. Keep in mind, that unlike mortals on the Prime, Elementals are outsiders, and as such, their soul doesn't depart their body when they die. No, no, no, their soul is their body. So by binding an Elemental to your construct, you are actually twisting it's very soul to suit your needs.
But remember, creating a Golem isn't evil. Torturing the soul of an innocent Elemental is perfectly fine. Heavens help the one who fills a body with negative energy to create a minion though.
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the party was too focused on hackenslashing, that is a good story of an evil but approachable lich. i would have sought to make the deal too. it's not like the lich was commiting blatant acts of slaughter in public. she was just sitting at home and plotting a utopia on her daughter's request. i'd consider that worthy of a bit of good karma on the liches part for intent. good example of "lawful evil done right."
most PCs try to look for justified races to slaughter based upon their skin, a policy i prefer is, asking if the thing can be reasoned as an OOC question with a sense motive check with before rolling initiative. i have an 80% chance of maxing sense motive if i have spare skill points. i usually take diplomacy and perception with most of my PCs, regardless of crossclass skill or bad attribute bonuses.
i'd rate the cleric a better hero for finding a solution that didn't involve slaughter. even if it were at the last moment.
What's actually really hilarious is that I was a guest GM for it because the other GM didn't want to GM that night (I found out later it was because he was tired of GMing for their "overpowered characters", and found out from the players he tended to do a lot of single-enemy battles :P) and he had given me all these permissions to make the battle "last more than one round" which included permission to use like a 20th level lich-wizard with superior stats and some artifacts only the lich could use ("because reasons") like +8 Intelligence and stuff. I nodded and was like, "Okay, nothing worse than this? That's cool, got it". Scrapped that and made the lich 2 levels higher than the party with NPC stats and wealth and figured out a few tricks and strategies and tossed a pair of advanced allips into the fight as minions.
The part that made me facepalm though was the lich had a sort of magical intercom system in the tower the party was in, and welcomed the party to her tower when they blew a hole in side to invade it. She asked if they would mind not tracking a mess all over everything and asked if they would be willing to discuss this like civilized creatures.
To spite the lich, the party set fire to everything they came across that looked decorative or important. So they set fire to a room full of tapestries, books, etc. Just being asshats really, trying to make the lich angry (and it did, mostly at their wonton stupidity since these were just decorative to her, but their sheer audacity was insulting). However, imagine the looks on the player's faces when they realized the majority of the potential treasure to be had from the place was in the form of art objects...which were now gone.
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It seems to be a common theme that either the ritual and/or the requirements involved, mean doing a crapton of evil.Something I find very amusing is they also have made it so becoming a lich is no longer an aligned thing specifically. There is no defined ritual and the ritual is specific to the caster in question.
Yep. That would seem to be the common trope. It's not the only one though. Pathfinder even got a bit progressive since they don't even call out that it must be an evil ritual or anything, merely that the process be expensive, span multiple adventures, and unique for each lich that is to bind their soul to their phylactery.
This works nicely because it gives a lot of flexibility. In the case of my Paladin, it was part of her overarching goals to attain lichdom as a form of transcendence from her mortal body (though if you asked her why she wanted to become undead, she would usually jokingly say something like "Because I wouldn't have to sh** anymore"). Given that her deity was a Lawful Neutral goddess of death who had no issues with undeath, that seemed like a pretty good idea.
She was also very pro-undead in her beliefs, but she tended to get pissed at what she perceived to be the misuse of necromancy. Basically, those who used undeath to enslave others (such as using create undead on someone to turn them undead and then using control undead to bind them to your will) or harming others through undead (such as an evil necromancer using plague zombies to cause problems) tended to get under her skin. She was the sort that would have given her life to protect innocents from a powerful vampire oppressing a village, only to turn around and fight for the life of a ghoul who had been unjustly blamed for a string of grizzly murders.
I guess in a way she was pro-everybody.
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It seems to be a common theme that either the ritual and/or the requirements involved, mean doing a crapton of evil.Something I find very amusing is they also have made it so becoming a lich is no longer an aligned thing specifically. There is no defined ritual and the ritual is specific to the caster in question.
Yep. That would seem to be the common trope. It's not the only one though. Pathfinder even got a bit progressive since they don't even call out that it must be an evil ritual or anything, merely that the process be expensive, span multiple adventures, and unique for each lich that is to bind their soul to their phylactery.
This works nicely because it gives a lot of flexibility. In the case of my Paladin, it was part of her overarching goals to attain lichdom as a form of transcendence from her mortal body (though if you asked her why she wanted to become undead, she would usually jokingly say something like "Because I wouldn't have to sh** anymore"). Given that her deity was a Lawful Neutral goddess of death who had no issues with undeath, that seemed like a pretty good idea.
She was also very pro-undead in her beliefs, but she tended to get pissed at what she perceived to be the misuse of necromancy. Basically, those who used undeath to enslave others (such as using create undead on someone to turn them undead and then using control undead to bind them to your will) or harming others through undead (such as an evil necromancer using plague zombies to cause problems) tended to get under her skin. She was the sort that would have given her life to protect innocents from a powerful vampire oppressing a village, only to turn around and fight for the life of a ghoul who had been unjustly blamed for a string of grizzly murders.
I guess in a way she was pro-everybody.
Sounds to me she was pro-justice and the term, "Innocent until proven guilty" was just a phrase to her, but her way of life.
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Indeed it was. I mean her goddess was Lawful Neutral and she was Lawful Good. She embraced the best aspects of things like magic, undeath, and law. She wasn't very preachy about it though. She wore black and red clothing and a choker with the witch-queen's holy symbol on it. When the party first met her they thought she was some sort of cleric (she was wearing chain armor, carrying cheap weapons and shields, and had spent some bonus gold she had due to campaign specific stuff on some used wands of spells like bless).
When the party found her, she had fallen through a sinkhole into the darkness of some underground complex while looking for some children. She had accepted a bounty to try to find them. She said it was just for the money, but the job was way more dangerous than the money would have suggested which is why nobody else was out looking for the kids. The rest of the party hadn't even heard about it (she later found the kids as a cross-adventure with the party's main activities).
When the party met her, she explained that she had fallen down here and had been here for a while. The sinkhole she fell into had more or less collapsed in on itself so not only was it really dark down here but she couldn't get back up, and the way seemed blocked until the party arrived. She took it as some sort of sign and offered to help the party with what they were doing at least until she could get out and back to her current activities. During combat she did stuff like moving about casting spells from wands on people, then drawing her longspear and fighting enemies like that, occasionally throwing slingshots and such (because ammo for slings is cheap).
It wasn't until I declared smite evil that everyone realized she was a Paladin OOC. After she beat some big nasty to the ground with her fists (spiked gauntlets actually, she had been disarmed of her longspear), she fell back and made a comment about needing a good drink and a better ****. One of the players turned and was like "What kind of Paladin are you!?" :P
Becoming a Lich usually doesn't have anything to do with being afraid of dying. It's usually just because the person becoming a lich simply doesn't want to die yet.There's a lot of paths to evil that start out with simple basic fears.
The thing is... you're not selling Girl Scout Cookies to make that phylactery... You're making cookies OUT of Girl Scouts, or something along those lines of evil to get it done.
So? If you're a follower of an evil god, you're acually doing what your god wants when you're holding your Real Girl Scout bake sale to pay for your little soul house.
If someone manages to take you down, before or after you become a lich, your god is not going to punish you for what you did.
Worst case scenario is that your soul is fragmented and you become a bunch of Dretches, any one of which might evolve over time to become a more powerful demon.
Sure, getting there is a mess, painful and awful, but you're evil. That's what you expect everything to be like.
What failures? (o_o)?
Well if some do-gooders came along and killed you in the midst of your plot, you failed.
Depending on the importance of that plot, it may, or may not, weigh more heavily than all your past deeds. For instance, the guys (I forget their names) who failed to stopped Huma from interfering with Tahkasis during the War of the Lance, probably were not rewarded all too much.
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I think one thing people are not quite catching wiht immortality at least in Golarion is that sooner or later you'll have no choice but to do battle with or face off against powerful planar forces.
Pharasma has been mentioned and depending on your particular method of immortality you can expect her to come after you (though you should be more worried if she doesn't because that means your vaunted immortality is fated to be and therefore not immortality).
You also have to deal with the Inevitables who are separate entities from Pharasma and work on their own universal law.
Than of course you may have other beings coming after you depending on your actions. Sold your soul to a devil than made yourself immortal? Expect some infernal assassins you contract dodging douche.
And of course in extreme cases where you have had to make yourself powerful enough to fight off these forces to maintain your immortality you will have to deal with the assassin god Achaekak which is a whole new ball game altogether.
Now barring the devils these are not exactly evil entities. Pharasma is neutral, inevitables are lawful neutral, and while Achaekak is evil he's only evil in so much that his sole purpose is to murder anyone attempting to become a god (though it seems the starstone is exempt I'm not sure on this).
Now the main reason I think you don't find good or positive undead is that there has yet to come a situation where a positive energy creature might come about as a result of cheating death (i.e. Pharasma). Now Urgathoa came at a time when undeath was unheard of. There were no vampires, mummies,zombies, skeletons, in fact I imagine the very school of necromancy looked vastly different than what we know now. What she did represented a mutation of the natural order a selfish act pulled off by a strong will that had enormous repercussions (plague, undeath, and very horrible things).
Whether or not you like Pharasma her function as a life bringer and life taker was made greatly more difficult by Urgathoa's rebellion against the natural order. Now imagine if a good creature selflessly rebelled against the natural order in an act of life giving altruism and if it had a similiarly devastating effect on the path of life and death?
I think the forces of good (as in gods, goddesses and the legions of angels and such) intentionally avoid such a potential catastrophe and further unbalancing of the scales by helping ensure that good creatures who die either stay dead or have outs in case of a death before their time. This is why you have them granting spells like Raise Dead, Resurrection, Consecrate (which incidentally prevents the raising of the dead) and all sorts of undeath annihilating goodies.
Now keep in mind this might require an extreme circumstance for this to happen. It would require a good creature, whose actual fate it was to stay dead, to not just flee the boneyard but will themselves back to life.
What would sucha creature be like? Would it be good as an opposite to URgathoa's evil? Not necessarily. I think the only reason that negative energy is marked as evil is because it has a nasty tendency to be very very hungry for that thing that powers living things; life. Because it sucks out that life and leaves dead thigns in its wake it's a marked representation of evil. And you see the theme repeated all throughout the evil pantheon. Asmodeus hungers for power. Rovagug hungers for existence. Zon-Kuthon hungers for paina nd darkness unending. And Urgathoa, who counts ghouls and vampires among her minions, hungers for life.
Now I think a creature built from positive energy would naturally gravitate towards the opposite. A giver. A giver of life. Now this all sounds well and good since you see the theme played out in good gods as well. Iomedae gives justice. Sarenrae gives compassion. Desna gives good fortune. Erastil gives stern fatherly lectures about your skirt being at knee height. But would this make such a being good?
As I said not necessarily. We have a few creatures that come directly from the positive energy plane and none of them are particularly good. RAvids are dangerous entities that animate things to life around them and have no particular reason to be nice to anyone. Likewise the actual dwellers on the positive energy plane that grow and farm the souls of the pre-living and send them off to life are hostile to quite literally anyone, especially deities.
And let's not forget everlasting life is every bit as dangerous as unending life. Some food for thought in that direction. Not much relevant to this debate but I think it may shed some light on why you don't see good aligned mortals suddenly becoming immortal without the benefit of simply becoming godly.
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Minor tidbit on Achaekek, he was promoted due to the actions of mortals. He was once a god of beasts amongst the Azlanti. However, you have Churcannus being killed by Lamashtu, Nethys ascending to Godhood by gaining infinite knowledge, Irori ascended through attaining perfection, Aroden raised the Starstone and later ascended, then Iomedae, Norgorber, and Cayden all ascended with the Starstone's aid.
Then an upstart mortal named Tar-Baphon comes along and slays a divine being in Arazni, and then Aroden died.
I don't remember where exactly it was stated, but it was mentioned that the reason Achaekek was charged with killing those who would ascend is because too many mortals failed to know their place. Six humans managed to ascend to divinity, and a few were even killed (Churcannus, the Azlanti God of Magic and the Azlanti God of the Moon, Arazni etc.) through the efforts of lesser beings. The implication given was that, after Churcannus, the Gods were shocked that a God could be killed by a non-God. Then they watched as Humans started ascending, and more Gods were killed (by the Aboleths, though inadvertently). The Snake God was even beheaded by a mortal and forced into a sort of half-life.
The Gods were scared and promoted a forgotten god of beasts, Achaekek, into the God of Assassins and basically told him to stop mortals who wanted to ascend. I believe that Achaekek was promoted to God of Assassins after the last mortal to reach the Starstone, and may very well be why no Mortal has passed since then.
At least, that's what I've managed to pick up in reading the scattered bits and pieces on Achaekek over the years.
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I like all of that, except for the fact negative energy has nothing to do with evil. Nor positive energy good. There's a very simple reason positive energy isn't animating any undead. The undead animated by positive energy are called...living.
On a side note, evil deities also grant spells like raise dead and resurrection, though not consecrate they instead have desecrate which doesn't prevent the raising of living creatures (AFAIK, you can still cast raise dead in an area of desecration so it's at least more sporting).
Urgathoa did selfishly buck the system. She has been described as a hedonistic mortal. A hedonist is someone who believes in doing what feels best to them, where self-pleasure is the driving force of moral value. In essence, as a hedonist, to deny herself her will was to betray her ethics and virtues. Such is hedonism. I don't agree with the idea, but she bailed because she wanted to.
Now, I've heard she brought plague to the world. Not sure how exactly. I guess maybe she brought bacteria and disease back with her? Maybe there was no microscopic life before she returned. Maybe people could shovel rat feces into the mouths as hard as they can while chewing on rusty nails and letting rabid weasels dance in your pants and no bad came of it before Urgathoa landed back on...wait, where did she land exactly? I dunno. Either way, I've no reason to assume disease didn't start with her since that's supposedly a thing.
But blaming Urgathoa for undeath, like it was a bad thing, nay like it was similar to plagues and pestilence? Hah, can't swallow that one, even if the rusty nails wouldn't lock my jaws shut. Undeath is itself a release from disease. So if she created the plague she provided the cure. Undeath is a solution to most of the problems humanity causes. When you are undead you have fewer needs. It doesn't matter if that other guy has more food than you, you don't eat. It doesn't matter who's got a softer bed than you, you don't sleep. There is no fear of becoming sick because you don't get sick. You are. You are perfect. A soul with an undying vessel.
Some dude gets pissed drunk and becomes a god, only to tell everyone not to drink irresponsibly, and he's a good guy. The god of absolute alcoholism and hypocrisy. Urgathoa decides she doesn't want to bow before the whims of an uptight witch who's a fraud on top of all of it, who's alignment is highly suspect to boot, becomes a goddess out of the ashes of the result and her priests and followers help to deliver this level of freedom and liberation while keeping their distance from those who don't want it?
Yeah...I'm not buying it. Not yet anyway. Going to need to hear something a bit better than that I think. (6_6)
Who knows. Maybe I'm a bit biased since my country was founded by people that bucked the system. Might be that I'm biased because my religion worships a guy said to have died and come back with wounds and such intact. Or maybe it's just that I need someone to actually show me why something is rather than merely being told what it is. Either way, it's a fun conversation.
Minor tidbit on Achaekek, he was promoted due to the actions of mortals. He was once a god of beasts amongst the Azlanti. However, you have Churcannus being killed by Lamashtu, Nethys ascending to Godhood by gaining infinite knowledge, Irori ascended through attaining perfection, Aroden raised the Starstone and later ascended, then Iomedae, Norgorber, and Cayden all ascended with the Starstone's aid.
Then an upstart mortal named Tar-Baphon comes along and slays a divine being in Arazni, and then Aroden died.
I don't remember where exactly it was stated, but it was mentioned that the reason Achaekek was charged with killing those who would ascend is because too many mortals failed to know their place. Six humans managed to ascend to divinity, and a few were even killed (Churcannus, the Azlanti God of Magic and the Azlanti God of the Moon, Arazni etc.) through the efforts of lesser beings. The implication given was that, after Churcannus, the Gods were shocked that a God could be killed by a non-God. Then they watched as Humans started ascending, and more Gods were killed (by the Aboleths, though inadvertently). The Snake God was even beheaded by a mortal and forced into a sort of half-life.
The Gods were scared and promoted a forgotten god of beasts, Achaekek, into the God of Assassins and basically told him to stop mortals who wanted to ascend. I believe that Achaekek was promoted to God of Assassins after the last mortal to reach the Starstone, and may very well be why no Mortal has passed since then.
At least, that's what I've managed to pick up in reading the scattered bits and pieces on Achaekek over the years.
Maybe they should be scared. Seems like the mortals were flexing pretty hard in such days. The gods probably don't like being made fools of, displaying their failures left and right. Even Urgothoa's very existence as a goddess is troubling really. Here you have a goddess who can "see everything" (big air quotations here, because she's a fraud) and had this chick, some random hedonistic mortal already dead and her her own plane...and she just leaves and...becomes a deity? O_o
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I remember my last good 3.5 game. I was playing a Kalashtar Divine Mind in Eberron. Worst class ever, but I made it work with some alternate class features in a web enhancement. We had gone through a few epic storylines, and my endgame goal was to get my lvl 6 manifesting, cast stasis on myself and have my psicrystal act as a guardian and mentor to those who needed my wisdom. If for whatever reason the world needed a hero Parmelk would be there to save it. As a barely 50 year old kalashtar he had another 150 years to go and the psychic powers he had would more or less make him immortal so I figured "eh, good enough."
In most campaigns though, at least back in the way old days, the good guys got to sit at the side of their gods and wait for when evil reared its ugly head. When the forces of the Abyss came to the prime material plane the celestials of heaven and those who followed their path were there to stop them. Maybe not directly, but guiding the hands of that paladin with a crucial smite, or granting some of the fun and crazy bs that we know happens in those heroic times to our characters. Evil is cheap and easy, like a girl at the bar that you don't exactly know if you want to go home with but you do anyway. Then you do it again, and again, and again, and eventually it becomes routine. Good is that once in a lifetime meeting in the old movies where you stare across the bar and see the girl of your dreams who you haven't even talked to yet, but know that you are going to marry her. And that's why heroes feel all tingly and warm inside when they do good things.
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Now, I've heard she brought plague to the world. Not sure how exactly. I guess maybe she brought bacteria and disease back with her? Maybe there was no microscopic life before she returned. Maybe people could shovel rat feces into the mouths as hard as they can while chewing on rusty nails and letting rabid weasels dance in your pants and no bad came of it before Urgathoa landed back on...wait, where did she land exactly? I dunno. Either way, I've no reason to assume disease didn't start with her since that's supposedly a thing.
Pretty much every source that cites her puts her up as the plague bringer. Actually plague spreading belongs to another minor diety.
As for bringing the cure? Not so much.
Ghoul plague is like the modern idea of a zombie plague it's the sort of thing that can wipe out civilizations. Same with vampirism. Even mummies spread terriblye curses that look a lot like disease.
Ghoul plague in particular is dragged up again and again as a thing that's very very nasty to deal with from a worldview standpoint. Probably because Richard Pett seemingly can't write a low level module without including half a dozen at least.
In truth their are very very few undone who do not have a bad impact on the living. Most eat the living in some form or another, others have every reason to be hostile against them and exercise this hostility with great frequency, many like ghouls, shadows, vampirse, wights, and others spread their condition to others unwillingly and with extreme prejudice.
If Urgathoa's cult decides to keep their activities hidden it has nothing to do with any sense of benevolence it has everything to do with not ending up on the point of a paladin's blade and keeping Urgathoa from ending up on the wrong side of a god war. She's passive because she has far too many enemies to make being an active goddess of undeath disease and gluttony worthwhile.
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Eox is filled with this evolution of life called undead. They are not exactly pleasant persons from what I understand.
And as if being the target of Good deities, Pharasma and positive energy, as well as the potential slave of Evil deities and their minions, was not bad enough, the native inhabitants of the Negative Energy plane also hate your guts.
Really, apart from Urgathoa, being undead only means having a long unhappy existence before meeting your end and facing Pharasma, who also hates you.
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Pretty much every source that cites her puts her up as the plague bringer. Actually plague spreading belongs to another minor diety.
Sound's about right. I've never read anything that suggests that she's actively trying to spread disease.
As for bringing the cure? Not so much.
Ghoul plague is like the modern idea of a zombie plague it's the sort of thing that can wipe out civilizations. Same with vampirism. Even mummies spread terriblye curses that look a lot like disease.
Here's the thing. It's not like modern zombie stuff at all. Ghouls are intelligent. In fact, they are actually more intelligent than their living counterparts point for point. And it's not in a ghoul's nature to try and run around biting people. In fact, ghouls are depicted more like scavengers unless the ghoul is threatened or chooses to go cause some troubles.
Ghoul plague in particular is dragged up again and again as a thing that's very very nasty to deal with from a worldview standpoint. Probably because Richard Pett seemingly can't write a low level module without including half a dozen at least.
That's just it though. If ghoul fever affects somebody then they become a ghoul. A very intelligent undead creature who prefers to eat already dead bodies rather than dealing with living things. But what did the transformation from living to undead do?
Well it made the person immune to poisons. It made them immune to disease. They can't get the bubonic plague from rats (but they can help clean up after it). They don't get sick from stepping on a rusty nail. They don't die when bitten by a viper. They don't get cancer. They don't catch the flu. They don't get filth fever. Etc, etc, etc.
In essence, "ghoul fever" is the last disease they'll ever get. It's the cure. The vaccination against all other disease. Just like giving someone cow-pox (which is inconvenient) immunizes them to small-pox (which will freaking kill you).
In truth their are very very few undone who do not have a bad impact on the living. Most eat the living in some form or another, others have every reason to be hostile against them and exercise this hostility with great frequency, many like ghouls, shadows, vampirse, wights, and others spread their condition to others unwillingly and with extreme prejudice.
Actually, ghouls specifically eat dead things. It even goes so far as to say eating freshly dead things (IE - like killing people to eat them) is a last resort. They also don't have to feed on humanoids so that just puts them on the same bar as people who really need to eat more veggies.
Undead like shadows don't feed on anything, and for some reason are letting the living live (because there is basically nothing that can stop a shadowocalypse other than the shadows choosing to not kill everything).
Mummies don't feed on anything. Or even spread a contagious disease. Theirs is a curse-disease inflicted on those who are their enemies, such as those who defile sacred tombs.
Wights are just insane, but they don't feed on creatures. They just hate everything.
Vampires do feed. On blood. Where they get that blood is more than likely the determining factor in an individual vampire's alignment. A vampire could easily feed on cattle, or even through donors (you get between 1-4 points of Con back each day through natural healing), so a gluttonous vampire that kills people is an evil self-centered bastard.
Which is why I said the evil undead in my campaign are evil because they're evil. There's no sympathy or excuse for a vampire who indulges in hunting and killing humans.
But here's the dig. Living creatures are no less evil. For every sentient undead creature that is legitimately very bad (like wights), I can find you five living creatures that are horrible. Basilisks for example kill randomly and accidentally. It's not even a matter of morality, they're just destructive to all living things. All fiends are living and healed by positive energy, but they are formed from all kinds of evil stuff. Darkfolk are evil. Most humanoids are evil.
There's all kinds of living creatures that kill and eat other living creatures. Many of which are sentient.
A Bit of a Sidetrack but it's relevant: So when you compare the two, there is a logical problem. The same sort of logical problem that morons like Anita Sarkeesian has when she's ranting over games. It's the idea that "it doesn't count unless". See, Anita Sarkeesian trashes gaming for being sexist and misogynistic because male characters rescue female characters and thus the "damsel in distress" is portrayed over and over, and she defines the trope as when a character needs rescuing because they need the aid of the protagonist to be rescued rather than doing so through their own devices.
However, she only counts the characters in distress that are female. Because she's trying to make a case about sexism. If she were to talk about Metal Gear Solid, she would be all over you rescuing Merryl, but she would leave out Hal Emmerich (who even wets himself in his locker because he's so helplessly scared).
The same thing is happening with the undead. We're only counting them as something special because they're undead. There are countless creatures through the bestiaries who are as dangerous or as malevolent and often for worse reasons than creatures such as ghouls, or as homocidally insane as wights, or who eat living creatures - often expressed that they eat them alive - for their own pleasures. Except the thing is, these other creatures are "alive" and not "undead".
But it's only a thing if they're undead...
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I'll grant that a big part of the problem with undead is being what they are (ie, undead type).
Now, something that is hurt by the raw energy of life and creation and healed by the energy of destruction does not sound very promising for being your new neighbour. Not to mention that the very vast majority of them that you know of are actually evil to the bone.
Not going through the whole thread, but in Bestiary 4 there's another option for spellcasters- becoming a soulbound shell. You get to keep your spells and everything- bad thing is that they can't be changed.
Since liches are free-willed, they can choose their own path. Nothing stops one from being good.
Ashiel, do you mind explaining why you think Pharasma is a fraud? Or why you think her alignment is suspect? I've seen nothing to support either claim, but I also haven't read every bit of material that Paizo has published either.
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Ashiel, do you mind explaining why you think Pharasma is a fraud? Or why you think her alignment is suspect? I've seen nothing to support either claim, but I also haven't read every bit of material that Paizo has published either.
Firstly because the notion of both free will and predetermined destiny are not compatible. Supposedly Pharasma knows everything that will ever occur with a person before they are born but "reserves judgment" for after they die. There's a few problem with this. For one, it makes literally everything pointless since it means there is no choice. Two, it ruins any semblance of a Neutral alignment because it means that she has the opportunity as a goddess of birth and rebirth to stop evil before it happens. She knows that X is going to end up being some horrible murderer who kidnaps and skins the homeless on the steet, and if his fate is predetermined then he won't (or can't even) choose to do otherwise. But she allows it and then tells him he was a bad boy and sends him to the abyss later.
She's a fraud because there's been several instances where her incompetence was proven. Firstly, it was suspect since she insists she knows the future of every individual when they are born but reserves judgment until they die and are before her. That is like someone saying "I know what you're going to say next, but I'll only tell you after you say it in front of me".
Urgathoa's very existence is proof of her fraudulence. Here we have a mortal who is even in the domain of Pharasma herself. Like in her own domain. Her own plane of existence. Where deities basically know everything. And Urgathoa skipped town. Why didn't Pharasma simply stop her when she arrived? She "knows everything" that Urgathoa was ever going to do, which means unless she is a fraud she knew Urgathoa was going to buy a one-way ticket out of the Boneyard.
When Aroden died, she didn't foresee it. Or at least her really devoted insist that she did see it but for some reason they nor she can explain she didn't foretell it. Many her her own followers saw her for the fraud that she is, and those that clung to her still insist that she did foresee it and just didn't say because "reasons", all the while trying to downplay her as a deity of fate and prophecy (which she is a failure at) and trying to play up her as a goddess of death and rebirth and babies and stuff. It's totally a PR campaign by the desperate.
Beyond the "I know I'm about the throw lots of wolves into the sheep" aspect I touched on before, I further suspect her alignment because again she has her clerics slay any sort of undead they come across based on species rather than morality or harm being caused. The core rules define evil as hurting, oppressing, and killing others. With emphasis on sentient life. There's a few issues with this.
1. Mindless undead have no souls, they're just automatons. So while I actually have no moral troubles with destroying these en mass, it actually does not coincide with the reasoning behind it.
2. It's based on race, not action. All undead, regardless of motivations or activities are to be wiped out. If Pharasma had her way, she would destroy neutral and good undead as well, just for being what they are.
This is a very loveable character who hurts no one. Her motivations are clearly noted as being interested in helping Korvosa and its citizens. Pharasma and her clerics would see this ghost destroyed out of a blanket hatred for all undead.
Given that harming and oppressing sentient creatures is evil, that paints a big fat E on the right side of her alignment. So even if we could excuse her "foreseeing" all the evil guys and gals in the world and sending them to do the horrors like you see on Investigation Discovery (horrors unfit for this conversation) as just some sort of cosmic pressuring by the other gods to not tamper with their prospective followers (not that the deities actually need to compete over followers since they could just ask Pharasma how many followers they will end up with if it's predestined, but she probably couldn't tell them anyway), we still have the fact that she and her clerics are genocidal.
And it is genocidal. It's the systematic and unapologetic destruction of sentient existence based on racial qualities, regardless of morality or ethics of the individual being oppressed and destroyed. And "well their souls will move on" is not an excuse, because the same could be said for killing non-undead as well (who too would just go to the boneyard and be sorted).
Pharasma's edicts do not jive with the description of Alignment given in the core rulebook. An uncaring genocidal deity would not be Neutral, it would be Evil. It would be one of the worst kinds of evil.
Continuing from my previous post, this is actually one of the reasons I respect (but not admire) Urgathoa. Urgathoa is at least fairly strait forward and honest with her motivations. She's in it for self gratification, her own power, and to do as she will. Not traits I would call good if I'd even quantify them as not-evil.
Urgathoa's clergy do at least keep to themselves as opposed to being on a crusade to exterminate the living as opposed to their enemy. Likewise they seek to protect their own and aid those who seek undeath with their quest. Again, I can at least respect that.
Urgathoa is evil because she clearly doesn't care whom she hurts to get what she wants. She was described as a hedonist as a mortal which by definition means her moral/ethical compass is driven towards what feels good to her. Her pleasure is good, her pain is evil, to her (not to alignment specifically). But she's not actively propagating destruction, so I can agree to disagree and go on about my day.
So while Urgathoa and her clergy's excesses are not my cup of tea, I don't actually despise her or them for it. To me they are just people until they do something to actively harm me. And if I get sick, well I can pay them some gold pieces to make me well again just like I can any other deity, though I get the feeling they might hand out some pamphlets detailing the benefits of becoming undead and the gold pieces I'd save long term by switching to negative energy as a fuel source.
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I decided to spoiler everything so people who don't want to see our off-topic posts don't have to.
In the context of the Offical Golarion, I don't have a problem with Pharasmites hating undead. In my home games, Pharasmites only destroy harmful Undead.
In that context, Aroden sacrificed his life, and Pharasma sacrificed Prophecy itself, to prevent Rovagug from escaping. Since Rovagug is viewed as such a threat to all of existence that even Gods that are direct rivals, like Asmodeus and Saranrae, were forced to work together, and many died in the effort, just to barely contain him, it's entirely reasonable to see Pharasma abandoning her neutrality to prevent a threat she helped contain, from escaping.
Now that would make the other gods Angry. True Neutral beings won't worship Asmodeus, just like they won't worship Sarenrae. There could be no Clerics of any God other than those that were Neutral in some way, as Clerics have to be within one step of their deity on the alignment scale.
To be truly Neutral, Pharasma has to allow Good, Evil, Law and Chaos to exist. Pharasma doesn't immediately judge every soul, despite knowing what they're going to do, because Gods need their playthings in the world.
The Gods aren't supposed to directly interfere with events in the world. That's why Mortals are needed, so Gods can get their way. Even if Pharasma immediately judged all souls before they were even born, since she already knows what they would do, there are still other creatures who aren't created that can interfere. Many Outsdiers, for example are created from the raw energy of the plane they exist on. Demons and Devils, for example, are created with, or without, mortal souls, and they can still play havoc on the world and planes.
Daemons, however, wouldn't exist without Mortals if I recall. Daemons were basically born from Mortal deaths, and without them Mortals, there would be no Daemons.
It's also possible, that the reason why Pharasma doesn't Judge people, is she might hope she's wrong. It may very well be a pleasant surprise to her. Considering Prophecy no longer works, it's also possible that Pharasma has been wrong before. Maybe the reason why Pharasma gives everyone is a chance, is one person, long ago, managed to thwart his fate, and defy Pharasma's predictions.
Suffice to say, one of the big problems with knowing a Gods reasoning for doing something, is that Paizo is deliberately keeping many things secret. That's not a bad thing, but it's also frustrating as it is hard for a GM who wants to stay as close to Canon Golarion as possible to do so.
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So, to sum up this thread Good (or Netural) casters can look forward to a relatively pleasant afterlife, as long as they serve their God; can enjoy immortality if they take the right classes/archetypes/class abilities; die; or, if using 3E/3.5 material, become the Good/Neutral equivalent of a Lich?
That's not too bad, considering many Evil Casters, even ones who become Lichs, that die (eventually) are sent to Hell or the Abyss where their souls are consumed and they re-emerge as something like an imp. At the bottom of the evil ladder. It must be horrifying for those Casters to know that, in life, they could smite most of the Fiendish beings in existence, all by their lonesome, but once they re-form as such a fiendish being themselves, they are little more than playthings for the elder fiends to toy with.
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Continuing from my previous post, this is actually one of the reasons I respect (but not admire) Urgathoa. Urgathoa is at least fairly strait forward and honest with her motivations. She's in it for self gratification, her own power, and to do as she will. Not traits I would call good if I'd even quantify them as not-evil.
Urgathoa's clergy do at least keep to themselves as opposed to being on a crusade to exterminate the living as opposed to their enemy. Likewise they seek to protect their own and aid those who seek undeath with their quest. Again, I can at least respect that.
Urgathoa is evil because she clearly doesn't care whom she hurts to get what she wants. She was described as a hedonist as a mortal which by definition means her moral/ethical compass is driven towards what feels good to her. Her pleasure is good, her pain is evil, to her (not to alignment specifically). But she's not actively propagating destruction, so I can agree to disagree and go on about my day.
So while Urgathoa and her clergy's excesses are not my cup of tea, I don't actually despise her or them for it. To me they are just people until they do something to actively harm me. And if I get sick, well I can pay them some gold pieces to make me well again just like I can any other deity, though I get the feeling they might hand out some pamphlets detailing the benefits of becoming undead and the gold pieces I'd save long term by switching to negative energy as a fuel source.
Ugh, it takes me forever to type posts when I'm chasing after my nephews :P
The Clerics of Urgathoa don't keep to themselves any more than other Clerics of other gods do. While Urgathoa herself may not be out there spreading undeath and plagues, her Clerics certainly do so.
Urgathoan plots are, as far as I'm aware, a kind of favorite amongst the Paizo adventure writers. Probably because it's really easy to write a low-level disease or undead adventure, while it's harder to write a low-level invasion by fiends.
On the undead aspect, that, I think, is taken out of context. While you and I both acknowledge that Undead shouldn't all be labeled as Evil, in the context of the Official Golarion, Undead are all Evil. Not only that, Undead are seen as a blasphemy against the natural order of the world of Birth, Life, Death, Judgement, After-Life. So Undead are not only evil, but blasphemous to the Goddess of Birth, Death and Judgement.
So why aren't Pharasmites kicking down the doors of monks, wizards, alchemists, and druids? All of them have in-house methods of becoming immortal or otherwise shirking the afterlife. O.o
Also, there have been non-evil undead in Golarion. The chick from CotCT is probably one of the more iconic examples. She was awesome and not evil, and nothing else but an undead being of some sort. :P
In the context of the Offical Golarion, I don't have a problem with Pharasmites hating undead. In my home games, Pharasmites only destroy harmful Undead.
I'd probably like Pharasma in your home games more since it sounds like she's far less genocidal. Genocide doesn't sit well with me, for reasons I hope are obvious. (^.^)"
Personally, I'm a fan of this theory on Aroden's death.
Wow, this is actually really awesome. It also makes Aroden a boss. Thank you for sharing this. ^_^
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Continuing from my previous post, this is actually one of the reasons I respect (but not admire) Urgathoa. Urgathoa is at least fairly strait forward and honest with her motivations. She's in it for self gratification, her own power, and to do as she will. Not traits I would call good if I'd even quantify them as not-evil.
Urgathoa's clergy do at least keep to themselves as opposed to being on a crusade to exterminate the living as opposed to their enemy. Likewise they seek to protect their own and aid those who seek undeath with their quest. Again, I can at least respect that.
Urgathoa is evil because she clearly doesn't care whom she hurts to get what she wants. She was described as a hedonist as a mortal which by definition means her moral/ethical compass is driven towards what feels good to her. Her pleasure is good, her pain is evil, to her (not to alignment specifically). But she's not actively propagating destruction, so I can agree to disagree and go on about my day.
So while Urgathoa and her clergy's excesses are not my cup of tea, I don't actually despise her or them for it. To me they are just people until they do something to actively harm me. And if I get sick, well I can pay them some gold pieces to make me well again just like I can any other deity, though I get the feeling they might hand out some pamphlets detailing the benefits of becoming undead and the gold pieces I'd save long term by switching to negative energy as a fuel source.
Ugh, it takes me forever to type posts when I'm chasing after my nephews :P
The Clerics of Urgathoa don't keep to themselves any more than other Clerics of other gods do. While Urgathoa herself may not be out there spreading undeath and plagues, her Clerics certainly do so.
** spoiler omitted **...
That's a good point. That's definitely crossing the line as it were from "not bothering me" to "bothering me". It also demonstrates why I don't like evil deities and their devotees much. :P
Also, on a side note, I want to say thank you for actually having a cool conversation with me. It's so much more fun to actually have an interesting conversation like this that sheds light on so many different things rather than fighting and bickering. ^_^
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I don't have a problem filling in blanks, but I know some people do. Some of it is due to a lack of confidence, or lack of imagination, or they don't want to create easy-to-see-through-plots or whatever, but there are lots of people that don't like deviating from canon, especially when a book comes out some time later and invalidates what the story you came up with a year ago.
When I was running my group through the early parts of Curse of the Crimson Throne, I took them on a side adventure through the Grey District (cemetery run by Pharasmites). There, they faced off against a horde of ghouls and zombies, I believe it was. Later on, they came across a crypt that had 6 skeletons with sword, shield, breastplate and longspear and a 7th skeleton wielding a bastard sword and breastplate. They were all advanced skeletons, but the one with the bastard sword was a skeletal champion. They were sworn to defend the family crypt for eternity, and willingly sacrificed themselves to be raised as eternal guardians. The Pharasmites knew about this, and allowed the skeletons to stay because they didn't harm anyone except those who entered the crypt unauthorized.
The Party thought Undead = Evil and were just running around slaughtering them. They also thought Skeletons = Easy XP. They learned the hard way neither was true.
On the undead aspect, that, I think, is taken out of context. While you and I both acknowledge that Undead shouldn't all be labeled as Evil, in the context of the Official Golarion, Undead are all Evil. Not only that, Undead are seen as a blasphemy against the natural order of the world of Birth, Life, Death, Judgement, After-Life. So Undead are not only evil, but blasphemous to the Goddess of Birth, Death and Judgement.So why aren't Pharasmites kicking down the doors of monks, wizards, alchemists, and druids? All of them have in-house methods of becoming immortal or otherwise shirking the afterlife. O.o
Also, there have been non-evil undead in Golarion. The chick from CotCT is probably one of the more iconic examples. She was awesome and not evil, and nothing else but an undead being of some sort. :P
As far as I'm aware, Pharasma has adopted the policy that those who believe they are 'immortal' are fooling themselves. Everyone stands before her eventually.
As for the ghost in CotCT, you won't find a RAW reason why, but on the boards, it's been stated that Ghosts are the only undead capable of having different alignments, and that they should only have different alignments for story reasons, not so people Good characters can animate non-evil undead armies.
It's why the Ju-Ju Oracle was errated to remove it's ability to animate non-evil undead.
Haha. Well, that's different. Here I thought alignment was about making choices. It really takes all the point out of alignment if it's just red vs blue.
Maybe the Booze God and the Slave God play capture the flag on the weekends?
I'd believe that if it wasn't for the fact the NPCs in the GMG and NPC Codex are all hopped up on levels like they're just falling out of a pinata. :P
I'd believe that if it wasn't for the fact the NPCs in the GMG and NPC Codex are all hopped up on levels like they're just falling out of a pinata. :PKeep in mind that those are general use books. For perspective, the Faction Leaders in PFS only average about 8th level. And the Masters of Swords, Spells, and Scrolls, 12th.
That's actually kind of funny. The 3.x rules insisted that characters are generally more down to earth, while FR stood out as a campaign setting rife with super heroes. Meanwhile PF insists that every prostitute is the g++*!%n batman, but its primary campaign setting is more down to earth. :P
I decided to spoiler everything so people who don't want to see our off-topic posts don't have to.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Oh delightful lore bits and somethings I didn't even know about.
The whole sacrifice theory actually kind of gels with the prophecy in an off-handed sort of way. But that's kind of the way with prophecy you can take any vague phrase and turn it towards your interpetation.
Thanks for sharing.
On the undead aspect, that, I think, is taken out of context. While you and I both acknowledge that Undead shouldn't all be labeled as Evil, in the context of the Official Golarion, Undead are all Evil. Not only that, Undead are seen as a blasphemy against the natural order of the world of Birth, Life, Death, Judgement, After-Life. So Undead are not only evil, but blasphemous to the Goddess of Birth, Death and Judgement.So why aren't Pharasmites kicking down the doors of monks, wizards, alchemists, and druids? All of them have in-house methods of becoming immortal or otherwise shirking the afterlife. O.o
Also, there have been non-evil undead in Golarion. The chick from CotCT is probably one of the more iconic examples. She was awesome and not evil, and nothing else but an undead being of some sort. :P
As far as I'm aware, Pharasma has adopted the policy that those who believe they are 'immortal' are fooling themselves. Everyone stands before her eventually.
As for the ghost in CotCT, you won't find a RAW reason why, but on the boards, it's been stated that Ghosts are the only undead capable of having different alignments, and that they should only have different alignments for story reasons, not so people Good characters can animate non-evil undead armies.
It's why the Ju-Ju Oracle was errated to remove it's ability to animate non-evil undead.
Monk of the Four Winds wold beg to differ (he CANNOT die..)
On that train of thought... I wonder just WHAT Pharasma would think of a lvl 20 Monk of the 4 winds
For reference:
Immortality (Su)
At 20th level, a monk of the four winds no longer ages. He remains in his current age category forever. Even if the monk comes to a violent end, he spontaneously reincarnates (as the spell) 24 hours later in a place of his choosing within 20 miles of the place he died. The monk must have visited the place in which he returns back to life at least once.
I wonder if Pharasma can even do anything to the monk technically?
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I am now inspired to write about my non evil but maybe sometimes evil undead in my campaign setting.
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I am well aware of the Monk of the Four Winds archetype (it's my favorite archetype). However, the Monk of the Four Winds reincarnates as the spell.
A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be returned to life by this spell.
One of the reasons why the Immortality ability specifically calls out dieing by violent means, is that the other class abilities that grant immortality, for the most part, don't function like you think. It's less immortality, and more agelessness. You simply don't die of old age, but can still be killed by poison, tripping and cracking your skull, disease, murder, in a fight etc.
Reincarnate can bring almost anyone back to life, except those turned into Undead or killed by a death effect. Death effects include spells like Finger of Death, Power Word Kill, a Dread Ghost's Sonic Wail, a Minor Reaper's Death Touch etc.
With that in mind, it could be argued that the Monk of the Four Winds Immortality ability doesn't function when slain by a death effect, or if he's been turned into an undead after being slain.
It could also be argued that the Immortality ability only references Reincarnate in that you actually change your race and physical ability scores. Reincarnates exception to undead and death effects may not apply to the Monk of the Four Winds.
I would say that is up to the GM though. Personally, as a person currently running a Monk of the Four Winds in Legacy of Fire (who aspires to be one of the Templars of the Five Winds, and is carrying a certain ancient weapon), I'm hoping my GM chooses the second interpretation. It'd be awesome for him to be a truly immortal warrior of Law and Good that I can use later on for cameos or family ties.
[Edit] The closest thing to true immortality that I can think of, is a 3rd party template from Super Genius Games: Eternal.
I am now inspired to write about my non evil but maybe sometimes evil undead in my campaign setting.
Oh please do. I love sharing stories. ^_^
I am now inspired to write about my non evil but maybe sometimes evil undead in my campaign setting.Oh please do. I love sharing stories. ^_^
It's a work in progress, along with all the other stuff in the setting. I welcome and encourage commentary and discussion. In fact, I rather need it, as it helps motivate me out of depression. I can't seem to get myself going under my own power.