Lesser Astral Projection raises the option of near immortality as early as 9th level. Earlier with a scroll.
The spell has no duration and places your body in stasis. If you had a secure location you could safely adventure without aging or risk of death.
Now I'm going to have to look up the legality of lesser astral projection in PFS.
Except you're stuck on the vast generally empty wasteland that is the astral plane.
1. Have a Rogue buddy (real good buddy)with a max UMD and a dagger.
2. Buy a wand/staff of Reincarnate.
3. Have buddy sneak attak/Coup de grâce you.
4. Fail save (die).
5. Said buddy uses Wand.
Repeat steps 1-5 until you get desired results.
Don't forget the very expensive Steps 6a or 6b: deal with two or more permanent negative levels. Fnord.
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Except you're stuck on the vast generally empty wasteland that is the astral plane.
Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.
This spell functions as astral projection, except you cannot leave the Astral Plane and explore other planes (though you can still return to the plane you were on when you cast this spell).
The arguement can be made that I can return to the Prime Material at a point other than the location of my true body, forming a new body in the process.
@Turin: less expensive than raise dead with the benefit of not aging.
Except you're stuck on the vast generally empty wasteland that is the astral plane.Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.This spell functions as astral projection, except you cannot leave the Astral Plane and explore other planes (though you can still return to the plane you were on when you cast this spell).The arguement can be made that I can return to the Prime Material at a point other than the location of my true body, forming a new body in the process.
@Turin: less expensive than raise dead with the benefit of not aging.
The spell is worded odd. I doubt it was intended to allow two bodies on the same plane. I think returning cancels the spell, though I'd need to reread astral projection.
Reread astral. Looks like your plan is RAW, Art.
@Turin: less expensive than raise dead with the benefit of not aging.
Per casting, not by a whole lot although certainly by enough that it adds up. The mention was more about the "rinse, lather, repeat" approach of reincarnating over and over until you get a body you like. That method gets expensive super fast ... and regular restoration only allows eliminating one permanent negative level a week, so you need a minimum of 8 days' "down time" before going out into the world again. This means greater restoration is your new friend if you're getting gacked and reincarnated multiple times in quick succession.
It's a development that I seriously hope never works out or comes out with some really awful drawbacks. Because quite seriously, the rich moneyed classes are bad enough, but if they never die, we'll always be under their boots.
We always HAVE BEEN under the boots of the movers and shakers, and we probably always will, because the world has haves and have-nots in it, and most of us are more in the latter category than the former. Only the owners of the boots have changed in that respect. Once upon a time they were called 'kings' and now they are called 'bankers'.
You can't project into a new body on the Material Plane when projecting from it.Lesser Astral Projection raises the option of near immortality as early as 9th level. Earlier with a scroll.
The spell has no duration and places your body in stasis. If you had a secure location you could safely adventure without aging or risk of death.
Hmm: lesser astral projection is PFS legal. Interesting. I could safely leave my body in the grand lodge in Absolom.
Source or logic please. ?
Source or logic please. ?You can't project into a new body on the Material Plane when projecting from it.Lesser Astral Projection raises the option of near immortality as early as 9th level. Earlier with a scroll.
The spell has no duration and places your body in stasis. If you had a secure location you could safely adventure without aging or risk of death.
Hmm: lesser astral projection is PFS legal. Interesting. I could safely leave my body in the grand lodge in Absolom.
Text of the spell itself
By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.
It allows you to project on to ANOTHER PLANE, in this case the Astral, it does not say you can project on to the same plane.
Try reading the whole spell.
"Though you can still return to the plane you were on when you cast the spell."
Nowhere does it say that that dismisses the spell. Frankly, I agree with you and think it should end the spell. However it doesn't say that anywhere.
Lemme see ....
This spell functions as astral projection, except you cannot leave the Astral Plane and explore other planes (though you can still return to the plane you were on when you cast this spell).linky
You can't leave the Astral Plane, which nixes adventuring anywhere else but the Astral Plane.
Your second body "is formed on a different plane" seems pretty rock solid a denial of adventuring on the Material Plane by either method. This is from astral projection, the operative phrase is right there at the beginning: "this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether".
Lemme see ....
This spell functions as astral projection, except you cannot leave the Astral Plane and explore other planes (though you can still return to the plane you were on when you cast this spell).linkyYou can't leave the Astral Plane, which nixes adventuring anywhere else but the Astral Plane.
Your second body "is formed on a different plane" seems pretty rock solid a denial of adventuring on the Material Plane by either method. This is from astral projection, the operative phrase is right there at the beginning: "this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether".
Why precisely does the bolded part end the spell?
The language leaves room for debate.
So create a Demiplane to operate out of. Then the Prime is just another plane to project to.Source or logic please. ?You can't project into a new body on the Material Plane when projecting from it.Lesser Astral Projection raises the option of near immortality as early as 9th level. Earlier with a scroll.
The spell has no duration and places your body in stasis. If you had a secure location you could safely adventure without aging or risk of death.
Hmm: lesser astral projection is PFS legal. Interesting. I could safely leave my body in the grand lodge in Absolom.
Text of the spell itself
By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.
It allows you to project on to ANOTHER PLANE, in this case the Astral, it does not say you can project on to the same plane.
. That works with the greater version of astral projection, but not the lesser.
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So evil casters go on to become liches, what options does the good caster receive?
A lot of flak for being too powerful. Thats what they get.
Lemme see ....
This spell functions as astral projection, except you cannot leave the Astral Plane and explore other planes (though you can still return to the plane you were on when you cast this spell).linkyYou can't leave the Astral Plane, which nixes adventuring anywhere else but the Astral Plane.
Your second body "is formed on a different plane" seems pretty rock solid a denial of adventuring on the Material Plane by either method. This is from astral projection, the operative phrase is right there at the beginning: "this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether".
Why precisely does the bolded part end the spell?
The language leaves room for debate.
It doesn't end the spell per se (never said it did) - but lesser astral projection is close to useless for the 1,000 gp M component cost for the proposed purpose of 'adventuring from a super safe spot'. It is explicitly useless until a demi-plane is acquired and the full spell is available at 17th+ level.
Point is that lesser astral projection is not the immortality you're looking for and it carries 2 permanent legative levels with it when your second body/astral form is slain. Having your entire adventure hinge on withstanding dispel magic is also somewhat questionable in terms of durability, especially since it automatically ends the moment a disjunction hits. Neither accounts for the numerous high level adventures that are written which prohibit astral stuff. And of course there is the not insigificant matter of how you retrieve all your treasure?
astral projection says nothing about retrieving your looted goodies - you still have to go there and get the stuff, putting your hide on the line anyway.
Astral projection creates copies of your gear. You lose nothing when your projection is killed.
EDIT: Never mind, you're referring to newly acquired treasure.
Immortality without becoming undead is available to anyone with money thoughHey that's one of mine!
You could at least have given credit where credit's due. ;P
I came up with it myself as I recall, but I wouldn't be surprised if you thought of it first. And "the Ravingdork Immortality Kit" does have a nice ring to it.
Perhaps the "raving dread immortality regimine" ... raving dork just ... doesn't work. ;)
Robin Hood is often cast as the poster child of CG. if he thought you had too much money it was taken and if you resist arrow ti the face. Many "Heroes" pick up teen fanboy/girl sidekicks that might be seen as kidnapping. LE does not HAVE to screw anyone over, they just will not hesitate if you cross them. Be polite to Dr. Lecter and he is charming and fascinating, wrong him he might eat your face.LE can be easier to deal with than CG. CG might rob you because they think your money has better uses, steal your property because they feel a need to, run off with your kids because they want to become adventurers too, etc. at least the LE guy is going to follow the laws and not screw you over against the laws even if he might be merciless in enforcing them or using them against a lawbreaker.The nature of Good alignments precludes this possibility. Meanwhile, the nature of Evil alignments virtually guarantees they'll screw over everyone around them eventually. It is simply a matter of time. The LE dude will just do it legally, or illegally if he figures nobody important will notice.
That said, I never was a fan of most Chaotic alignments, because of their short attention spans. Their plans tend to be concentrated on how they themselves feel here and now, not how their actions will affect the rest of society.
Pretty warped idea of what CG is, Andrew. Remind me to never game with you.
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Pretty warped idea of what CG is, Andrew. Remind me to never game with you.Robin Hood is often cast as the poster child of CG. if he thought you had too much money it was taken and if you resist arrow ti the face. Many "Heroes" pick up teen fanboy/girl sidekicks that might be seen as kidnapping. LE does not HAVE to screw anyone over, they just will not hesitate if you cross them. Be polite to Dr. Lecter and he is charming and fascinating, wrong him he might eat your face.LE can be easier to deal with than CG. CG might rob you because they think your money has better uses, steal your property because they feel a need to, run off with your kids because they want to become adventurers too, etc. at least the LE guy is going to follow the laws and not screw you over against the laws even if he might be merciless in enforcing them or using them against a lawbreaker.The nature of Good alignments precludes this possibility. Meanwhile, the nature of Evil alignments virtually guarantees they'll screw over everyone around them eventually. It is simply a matter of time. The LE dude will just do it legally, or illegally if he figures nobody important will notice.
That said, I never was a fan of most Chaotic alignments, because of their short attention spans. Their plans tend to be concentrated on how they themselves feel here and now, not how their actions will affect the rest of society.
Andrew is exaggerating a bit (I wouldn't call running off with an underage sidekick "good" under most circumstances), but he has a very relevant point.
Good implies taking risks or making sacrifices to help others. That doesn't mean that everyone will always appreciate what you do. A CG character in a slaveholding country is likely to free slaves. The slaveowners are going to hate that, and the CG character will face social penalties. Even when there isn't an obvious evil involved the hero might have to prioritize one person's good over another, for example by helping a young adult (not teenager) escape from their well-meaning but overprotective parents, or for a LG spin encouraging someone to go through with an unfulfilling arranged marriage because it will bring peace and stability to their community. "Good" is supposed to be difficult sometimes, not just because evil wants to kill you but also because you have to make difficult calls and suffer criticism from ordinary folks who think you made the wrong call.
Evil implies being willing to harm others, often severely, to get what you want, but it doesn't say you have to harm everyone. Smart villains might manage associates using carrot and stick, promising real rewards and visiting terrible punishment only if crossed. Some might consider it prudent to stay in a powerful villain's good books, making themselves useful so as not to become a victim. Alternatively, a huge number of historical evils are perpetrated against an out-group - members of another religion, ethnicity, etc - people who are considered acceptable targets by the villain's culture. This is how you can get evil PCs who adventure because it's socially sanctioned murder.
Social norms and incentives often but not always favour good over evil. Social norms also often but not always favour law over chaos. Individual LE characters might have an easier time in certain societies than CG ones.
And a nod to the main discussion: I've seen several people suggest that Good should not desire immortality, but there are several perfectly acceptable ways for a good character to achieve immortality, including reincarnation, wizard and alchemist discoveries, and the Living Monolith prestige class. Therefore immortality itself is not evil. Lichdom apparently is, probably due to evil acts that must be committed to create a phylactery. I think the reason that there isn't a nonevil lich is that undead in PF are in general Always Evil. Personally I could see room for a nonevil lich-like creature if the fluff were adjusted. Maybe also slightly less powerful, slightly more difficult to become, or with some other explanation for why anyone would opt for the soul-destroying lich transformation. Someone mentioned a willing sacrifice a little while back. Maybe it's as simple as "A person who can find a truly willing sacrifice may become a lich without losing their soul in the process" - though it would take some interesting RP to justify a good person willing to buy immortality at another's expense.
I would like to point out that most Sidekicks are Orphans or Similar circumstances. So it is more of Adopting the Sidekick. Also all Wizards and Alchemists can get Immortality at Level 20.
Lichdom's formulae is specific to the lich. Presuming that lichdom requires any number of Evil acts to acquire the ingredients - sufficient to warrant an alignment shift if the lich is not already Evil to begin with. The mindset to becoming a lich seems to be basically Evil from the outset. Slathering on a few more sacrifices, doing unspeakable things to virgins ... it really all depends on the specific lich.
I suspect that lichdom is a highly personal process, one speaking to the otherwise seldom heard parts of the lich's mind, conscious or unconscious. If/when a GM has a player that wants to become a lich - and presuming that the GM doesn't propose an alternative to lichdom such as a constructed man that begin the process as LN wanna-be immortals - the process can either take the PC out of play or be integrated into the campaign.
In the case of Way of the Wicked, although I do not possess the series, it is within the realm of possibility that the PCs are all liches of one stripe or another by the latest of the end of Chapter 5, if not Chapter 4.
Which makes survival an interesting prospect! One or a few well placed disintegrate rays will put paid to most phylacteries in short order...
Which makes survival an interesting prospect! One or a few well placed disintegrate rays will put paid to most phylacteries in short order...
If I was a lich, I wouldn't carry the thing safeguarding my immortality around with me while adventuring. It's just not a good decision, yet plenty of NPC liches seem to do it all the time... maybe because the DM doesn't want to deal with them as a reoccurring enemy?
If I was a lich, I wouldn't carry the thing safeguarding my immortality around with me while adventuring. It's just not a good decision, yet plenty of NPC liches seem to do it all the time... maybe because the DM doesn't want to deal with them as a reoccurring enemy?
Which makes survival an interesting prospect! One or a few well placed disintegrate rays will put paid to most phylacteries in short order...
Depends. In the short term "dealing" with regrowing liches doing the "pod" thing gets tiresome quickly. In the long term, or in the case of Way of the Wicked, the tricky balancing act is well described depending on one's "version" of lichdom. Certain versions, for example, required that a fresh corpse be within a certain distance of your phylactery ... but when there was one, the lich just *bamf'd* in and set up shop. If the AP/campaign doesn't warrant the multiple-sessions-potential headache of the CSI episode(s) that a phylactery hunt can become ... well, they're better off using ANY other form of undead. GHOSTS are preferable in this case as they can be permanently destroyed - presumably - without having to deploy construction equipment/machines to the gravesite.
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Which makes survival an interesting prospect! One or a few well placed disintegrate rays will put paid to most phylacteries in short order...If I was a lich, I wouldn't carry the thing safeguarding my immortality around with me while adventuring. It's just not a good decision, yet plenty of NPC liches seem to do it all the time... maybe because the DM doesn't want to deal with them as a reoccurring enemy?
Man, when one of my GMs threw liches at us the phylacteries were hidden inside the body of an evil demigod who we ended up fighting as the end boss.
Man, when one of my GMs threw liches at us the phylacteries were hidden inside the body of an evil demigod who we ended up fighting as the end boss.Which makes survival an interesting prospect! One or a few well placed disintegrate rays will put paid to most phylacteries in short order...If I was a lich, I wouldn't carry the thing safeguarding my immortality around with me while adventuring. It's just not a good decision, yet plenty of NPC liches seem to do it all the time... maybe because the DM doesn't want to deal with them as a reoccurring enemy?
Makes you wish you had a magical adamantine epic woodchipper with infinite fuel, eh? start on the toes and start feeding bits in ... :)
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I thought the silver Chord only trailed something like three feet and only while on the astral plane?I believe silver chords are meant for bards that want to rock the faces off werewolves.
Mmmm, had a good image of an ultra-masculine bard wrestling with a werewolf and raking its face off with silver piano wire.
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Mmmm, had a good image of an ultra-masculine bard wrestling with a werewolf and raking its face off with silver piano wire.I thought the silver Chord only trailed something like three feet and only while on the astral plane?I believe silver chords are meant for bards that want to rock the faces off werewolves.
Bards rock so hard they change the laws of physics!
But the best evil spellcasters take over anyway. Seriously, once you're lich-level, the vast majority of demons and devils are below you on the food chain. By the time you're lich level, only the upper crust of fiendish society is stronger than you and even then it's not by a whole lot. A heck of a lot less than everything else was on your way to reaching lich-level.
But the best evil spellcasters take over anyway. Seriously, once you're lich-level, the vast majority of demons and devils are below you on the food chain. By the time you're lich level, only the upper crust of fiendish society is stronger than you and even then it's not by a whole lot. A heck of a lot less than everything else was on your way to reaching lich-level.But when you actually die and your soul gets dragged screaming into the Abyss, you're back down at the bottom of the food chain. You don't get to keep being a bad-ass.
At least that's traditional. I'm not that up on PF metaphysics.
That is generally how that works.
There are a certain number of demon lords that retained their self, either because they impressed Lamashtu, or because there were unique circumstances regarding their birth as demons (Kostchtchie, The Nightripper, Kabriri, and Zura, Off the top of my head).
Trelmarixian I think retains at least fragments of his original self.
I think it is also possible to negotiate with Devils for "automatic promotion" if you fufill your contract and sell your soul (although I imagine you would be still low on the totem pole of devils).
But yeah...the vast majority of liches and others who attempt to hold off death are going to end up at the bottom of the evil outsider food chain (literally in many cases).
Trelmarixian is one of the Horsemen isn't he? He wouldn't have ever been under any Abyssal jurisdiction because even before he became a Horseman he was a Daemon as opposed to a Demon. I haven't read too deeply into it, so if I'm mistaken I apologize.
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with some other explanation for why anyone would opt for the soul-destroying lich transformation.The explanation as Xykon would put it is fairly easy. Many evil spellcasters knowing what fate is instore for them when they pass for the mortal plane, opt to use any means to avoid as he puts it, "The Big Fire Below".
I think you missed something from my post:
Personally I could see room for a nonevil lich-like creature if the fluff were adjusted. Maybe also slightly less powerful, slightly more difficult to become, or with some other explanation for why anyone would opt for the soul-destroying lich transformation.
Of course evil spellcasters will be motivated to become immortal. But if you can become a lich without committing unspeakable atrocities, why would anyone choose the terribly evil route? Maybe for a small portion of evil spellcasters the evil version would just be more fun, but some evil casters only commit evil that is necessary to achieve their goals, not random arbitrary evil. And where would you get those neutral spellcasters who slip into evil in a desperate search for immortality?
Simple. The evil lich route, the dark side, has to be more powerful, quicker, or easier, and therefore more seductive.
Think about the story possibilities brought in by the willing sacrifice route. Neutral spellcaster has discovered the method for becoming a lich. Neutral spellcaster has a loyal servant, apprentice, or loved one who has promised to do anything for the caster. Caster asks the loved one to help them become immortal by serving as a willing sacrifice for lichdom. Loved one refuses. Caster decides the loved one has betrayed them and uses them as a sacrifice anyway, but because the sacrifice was unwilling the caster is in immortality irrevocably tainted by the evil of the act.
I think it is also possible to negotiate with Devils for "automatic promotion" if you fufill your contract and sell your soul (although I imagine you would be still low on the totem pole of devils).
Yeah, but devils lie and they don't like the idea of anyone getting more power than they do, it's in their best interests to deceive you about this and not deliver.
I think it is also possible to negotiate with Devils for "automatic promotion" if you fufill your contract and sell your soul (although I imagine you would be still low on the totem pole of devils).Yeah, but devils lie and they don't like the idea of anyone getting more power than they do, it's in their best interests to deceive you about this and not deliver.
Check the fine print.
Check the fine print.I think it is also possible to negotiate with Devils for "automatic promotion" if you fufill your contract and sell your soul (although I imagine you would be still low on the totem pole of devils).Yeah, but devils lie and they don't like the idea of anyone getting more power than they do, it's in their best interests to deceive you about this and not deliver.
Or have a trusty Lawyer/Mage/Priest do it for you.
Interestingly enough, James Jacobs once suggested that a Paladin should be just as suspicious of a Chaotic Good person as he would be of a Lawful Evil.Pretty warped idea of what CG is, Andrew. Remind me to never game with you.Robin Hood is often cast as the poster child of CG. if he thought you had too much money it was taken and if you resist arrow ti the face. Many "Heroes" pick up teen fanboy/girl sidekicks that might be seen as kidnapping. LE does not HAVE to screw anyone over, they just will not hesitate if you cross them. Be polite to Dr. Lecter and he is charming and fascinating, wrong him he might eat your face.LE can be easier to deal with than CG. CG might rob you because they think your money has better uses, steal your property because they feel a need to, run off with your kids because they want to become adventurers too, etc. at least the LE guy is going to follow the laws and not screw you over against the laws even if he might be merciless in enforcing them or using them against a lawbreaker.The nature of Good alignments precludes this possibility. Meanwhile, the nature of Evil alignments virtually guarantees they'll screw over everyone around them eventually. It is simply a matter of time. The LE dude will just do it legally, or illegally if he figures nobody important will notice.
That said, I never was a fan of most Chaotic alignments, because of their short attention spans. Their plans tend to be concentrated on how they themselves feel here and now, not how their actions will affect the rest of society.
Yeah my setting have that side to them, the CG clash with the LG and LN and vice versa.
Clone
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 8, witch 8
This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature. If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return). The original's physical remains, should they still exist, become inert and cannot thereafter be restored to life. If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails.
To create the duplicate, you must have a piece of flesh (not hair, nails, scales, or the like) with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature's living body. The piece of flesh need not be fresh, but it must be kept from rotting. Once the spell is cast, the duplicate must be grown in a laboratory for 2d4 months.
When the clone is completed, the original's soul enters it immediately, if that creature is already dead. The clone is physically identical to the original and possesses the same personality and memories as the original. In other respects, treat the clone as if it were the original character raised from the dead, including its gaining of two permanent negative levels, just as if it had been hit by an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be cloned). If the original creature gained permanent negative levels since the flesh sample was taken, the clone gains these negative levels as well.
The spell duplicates only the original's body and mind, not its equipment. A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh which rots if not preserved.
--make clones when you are younger and make sure you don't die from natural causes (old age).
Evil implies being willing to harm others, often severely, to get what you want, but it doesn't say you have to harm everyone. Smart villains might manage associates using carrot and stick, promising real rewards and visiting terrible punishment only if crossed. Some might consider it prudent to stay in a powerful villain's good books, making themselves useful so as not to become a victim. Alternatively, a huge number of historical evils are perpetrated against an out-group - members of another religion, ethnicity, etc - people who are considered acceptable targets by the villain's culture. This is how you can get evil PCs who adventure because it's socially sanctioned murder.(snip)
Therefore immortality itself is not evil. Lichdom apparently is, probably due to evil acts that must be committed to create a phylactery. I think the reason that there isn't a nonevil lich is that undead in PF are in general Always Evil.
Firstly, if you hang about an Evil aligned person, eventually you end up getting poned, or worse. It's not that CE, NE, or LE people hurt others constantly, it's that they don't have any problems with doing so whenever they think they can get away with it. Problem your average guy has with that is you never know when this person will figure they can get away with screwing/hurting/killing you, especially if they think they will get an advantage in doing so. Thus, NPC's who interact with known Evil PC's or NPC's are foolish at best, and the general societal reaction is to shun such creatures.
You know how the KoDT crew thinks of NPC's? That's pure Evil. Now imagine YOU are the NPC, only in their world they don't even have that term or know if you are one. The implications are that this bunch has no problems violating you body and soul, whenever they figure they can get away with it.
This is why, in the games I run, if a PC screws over a NPC, and somehow this gets out to others, you will eventually receive an Evil alignment. In my game, alignments are indicative of your general attitude and reputation, which just happens to change how certain types of magic regard you.
That whole immortality thing, especially as a lich, has some problems to it. If you look at the basic attributes, Charisma is the closest thing to your physical attractiveness etc, because it represents how well you socially manipulate others. Now, liches get a huge boost to Charisma, but they are also reputed to be animate rotting corpses.
That doesn't make sense, IMO. One would think the stench alone would render one's ability to manipulate socially neutered. Now add in the fact that they look obviously dead unless they use magic, plus they are isolated from living society by nature, and so giving liches a higher Charisma isn't logical.
As for undead being always evil in PF, in real life legends (upon which PF is based in a big way) that's how they were.
(shrug) Me, I don't consider unintelligent undead to be Evil, simply because they lack the capacity to choose destructiveness or even act on their own. Therefore, zombies and skeletons do not detect or react as being CE, NE, or LE. I put them as Neutral, since they are essentially robots/automatons.
It does kinda annoy me to hear people calling movie ghouls as zombies, but that's a different matter. I actually know the legends surrounding zombies, and they don't eat people. True zombies don't do ANYTHING without being ordered to do so. I always wondered, what's to stop a movie zombie from attacking each other? Can't be scent, since most of their brain would be rotted. I dunno, maybe they're more properly low level demons possessing corpses.
Interestingly enough, James Jacobs once suggested that a Paladin should be just as suspicious of a Chaotic Good person as he would be of a Lawful Evil.
Naw, a Paladin would just be watching them because he'd be worried that lots of unintended consequences would arise from the CG guy's actions. Basically, a Paladin would view a CG as too random for everyone's good. The CG's heart is in the right place, but he just doesn't think things through.
An LE guy? Then you watch the SOB for the point that he breaks the law, and nail him for it with all your worth. And if the action was classically LE, you ensure everyone and their uncle knows what this guy did, and kick back, since the social consequences will be kicking in soon. All a LE alignment does in a Paladin's view is make you very suspicious, enough to get you watching him closely. CE and NE are easier to catch, simply because they don't consider the social consequences of their actions as much as LE.
Who's James Jacobs?
Or have a trusty Lawyer/Mage/Priest do it for you.Check the fine print.I think it is also possible to negotiate with Devils for "automatic promotion" if you fufill your contract and sell your soul (although I imagine you would be still low on the totem pole of devils).Yeah, but devils lie and they don't like the idea of anyone getting more power than they do, it's in their best interests to deceive you about this and not deliver.
Got one with 10,000 years experience? Devils come up with some really imaginative clauses and novel interpretations you may not see. Or you do all that, suggest changes, and they refuse the contract. It's take-it-or-leave it, their way or no way. Devils are evil, they will NOT agree a contract that doesn't give them the advantage in getting what they want: your soul.